Wrestling with Shadows documentary

[TWJC: The Beginning]

How many people have seen this? It's basically a documentary about Bret Hart, it follows him through his contract negotiations and the montreal screwjob.

After seeing it with my girlfriend (who has a psychology degree) all I have to say is if you're still on Bret's side after watching this you're nuts.

Bret, especially knowing now that he cheated on his wife, seems like a huge scumbag. He takes himself too seriously, says the audience "is the real bad guy because they are cheering bad guys" when it's like dude, it's a fucking show, the audience is never wrong. He basically just bitches the whole time about how everyone is wrong except for him. Then when Vince tells him he can't afford his contract he bitches that Vince owes it to him. He bitches about how people don't think wrestling is real, it's just a bitch fest.

Also, I loled at the dungeon scenes. "You'd come home and hear some young man screaming from the basement with western music playing in the background" the audio they played sounded a lot like the rape scene from Pulp Fiction.

My final thoughts on it was that the Montreal Screwjob was a work. The cameras just happened to pick up on his life during this time? During the time Vince was really trying to get him and Shawn to make their feud feel like a shoot. His own brother stayed with the company? Vince didn't sue Bret for punching him in the face and Bret didn't sue Vince for defamation? Just seems like too many things happened perfectly. Plus it made sense for everyone involved. In a shoot style atmosphere, this would get Shawn and Vince over as heels forever, meanwhile Bret, near the end of his career, could take up a huge chunk of Ted Turner's money. It's no coincidence that almost exactly after the Montreal Screwjob did WWF start beating WCW.

On a side note, if you don't know what I mean when I say "The attitude era appealed to white trash more than anything" then watch this documentary. It almost makes you wanna take a shower after they talk to the audience and you see what these people are like.

I guess just respond to what I took from it and tell me what you think/thought of the documentary and my perspective.

 

[MisterRob]

Only an idiot thinks the Montreal Screwjob was a work.

The reason there were cameras is the same reason Vince McMahon couldn't stop this documentary from coming out: because the WWE had already agreed to allow the documentary to be done and therefore the footage to be taken, etc, etc. It was originally meant to be a documentary on Bret Hart, and it just so happened that the real life situation that was playing out became a fortunate "story" that the documentary followed.

The reason WWE pulled ahead and started beating WCW after this documentary came out and Bret left the WWE was because it was THIS situation that spawned the idea of the Vince McMahon character and it was that character, along with Steve Austin (who Bret Hart had helped to build up to the point of breaking out at this point), that pulled the viewers away from WCW and to WWE. One thing leads to another, cause and effect, and it all makes sense because of that. Vince McMahon adapted to a very REAL situation and took advantage of it, that makes him both lucky and smart.

The idea that the Montreal Screwjob was a work is just silly.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

A few points:

1) Bret had a problem with the adult themes of the program. The sexuality and so on. He felt it was straying away from the family oriented programing he was used to. In that aspect, perhaps he was too rigid, but he is some one who was born into a wrestling family and a traditionalist, perhaps he just wasn't going to change. I can understand his disillusionment with the company. He wanted to stay, (he had turned down an offer from WCW before) and felt he could still be an asset to the company as a performer, he hated the stupid storylines Vince had for performers he faced, he had HBK acting as a fucking piece of shit behind the scenes and Vince turning a blind eye to it. So if I were Bret, I wouldn't be too happy with the situation either.

2) If you believe Vince couldn't afford Bret, you're beyond naive. Vince spent more than what he promised Bret on Mike Tyson to show up for one event WM13 or WM14. He also wanted to take the company into a more mature format, something Bret wasn't a fan of. Add to that, Vince did a shit job keeping egos (I mean HBK) in line. HBK had been a tyrant behind the scenes and Vince ignored it, and the countless performers who told him that HBK was a problem behind the scenes.

3) Bret's infidelity. I mean come on, you're kidding yourself if you want to make this a real big deal as though he was the only wrestler to commit adultery. Sure it's wrong, but when you have so many days on the road, and tons of women throwing themselves at these men, cheating happens. I mean how many stories do we hear about politicans, businessmen, entertainers, other athletes, I mean the list is endless. It's not right but it's hardly something that makes Bret unique.

I thought it was an okay documentary. It wasn't a great one and some things are left out that might have been crucial so it was just okay to me.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

A few points:

1) Bret had a problem with the adult themes of the program. The sexuality and so on. He felt it was straying away from the family oriented programing he was used to. In that aspect, perhaps he was too rigid, but he is some one who was born into a wrestling family and a traditionalist, perhaps he just wasn't going to change. I can understand his disillusionment with the company. He wanted to stay, (he had turned down an offer from WCW before) and felt he could still be an asset to the company as a performer, he hated the stupid storylines Vince had for performers he faced, he had HBK acting as a fucking piece of shit behind the scenes and Vince turning a blind eye to it. So if I were Bret, I wouldn't be too happy with the situation either.

2) If you believe Vince couldn't afford Bret, you're beyond naive. Vince spent more than what he promised Bret on Mike Tyson to show up for one event WM13 or WM14. He also wanted to take the company into a more mature format, something Bret wasn't a fan of. Add to that, Vince did a shit job keeping egos (I mean HBK) in line. HBK had been a tyrant behind the scenes and Vince ignored it, and the countless performers who told him that HBK was a problem behind the scenes.

3) Bret's infidelity. I mean come on, you're kidding yourself if you want to make this a real big deal as though he was the only wrestler to commit adultery. Sure it's wrong, but when you have so many days on the road, and tons of women throwing themselves at these men, cheating happens. I mean how many stories do we hear about politicans, businessmen, entertainers, other athletes, I mean the list is endless. It's not right but it's hardly something that makes Bret unique.

I thought it was an okay documentary. It wasn't a great one and some things are left out that might have been crucial so it was just okay to me.

Shawn and Bret both acted like pieces of shit. The difference is Bret thought he was golden and Shawn admitted he was a dick.

Yea, he may have spent a lot on Tyson, however, Tyson was worth it. Bret apparently was not. He didn't draw WCW out of the shitter and wasn't drawing what he was going to get paid.

I'm not saying Bret is the only wrestler to committ adultry. I'm saying earlier in the documentary he says "it's just harmless flirting with Sunny' and he's acting like he's this upstanding moral person, but he's not.

My problem with Bret isn't what he did, but that he somehow thought he was right. That shawn, vince, the fans, everyone else was immoral and wrong but he was right.

As for the guy who said "only an idiot thinks it was a work", well, Kevin Nash, one of Shawns best friends, thinks it's a work. So yea, go fuck yourself. It actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[RicoLen]

This was the last chat Bret had with Vince backstage before the screwjob. Keep in mind it was Vince that wanted out of the contract with Bret, and Vince that suggested Bret see if he could still get his deal with WCW after he turned it down.

Bret: I never ever wanted to leave here with any kind of bad feelings, but this week has been a bad week for me. I'm feeling kind of betrayed a little bit.
Vince: Well, I do too a little bit, and again all we're talking about really is Ted Turner. That's what's come between you and me, that's all. I can't tell you how appreciative I will always be for everything you've done.
Bret: I didn't want to leave with any problems. Actually I didn't want to leave at all and then it's to the point where the wasn't any other choice. This whole way this thing has been depicted is really hard for me as a "hero" here to come up short this weekend. What would you want to do today then?
Vince: I'm open to anything.
Bret: I think what I would like to do is get through today. I think tomorrow I should just go in do my speech and forfeit the title and then it allows me a chance to leave with my head up and leave in a nice way. I mean I don't have to beat Shawn, we can have a shmoz, or whatever you want.
Vince: I would think it'd be a run in type thing.
Bret: Yeah.
Vince: But I'm open to...
Bret: No I think that's...
Vince: I'm open to anything. Like I said, I'm determined that this is going to wind up the right way.

Bret, especially knowing now that he cheated on his wife, seems like a huge scumbag. He takes himself too seriously, says the audience "is the real bad guy because they are cheering bad guys" when it's like dude, it's a fucking show, the audience is never wrong. He basically just bitches the whole time about how everyone is wrong except for him. Then when Vince tells him he can't afford his contract he bitches that Vince owes it to him. He bitches about how people don't think wrestling is real, it's just a bitch fest.

Well, I'm certainly not a guy that will condone cheating, and I laughed at Bret's tell when he talked about Sunny and how she's very flirtatious but "we're just friends." More like she's a ****e and Bret liked it. But, while he did take his job very seriously, he wasn't taking himself that seriously. He was explaining how he had to get into the right mindframe of his character, and to an extent he agrees with it. Nothing wrong with that. I agree with that too, I, and Bret as well just didn't take it as far as his Hitman character did is all. He wasn't taking that seriously, that's why he agreed to be a heel, because otherwise he'd have been more like Cena, and kept it inside.

If you're looking at it from Bret's perspective, Bret is offered $9m over 3 years to go to WCW. Vince offers him less money but a contract for 20 years. That's stability and a guaranteed check until he's 60. Bret isn't 60 yet. Then less than a year later Vince comes to Bret and wants out? Sorry but I totally get Bret being irritated at that.

My final thoughts on it was that the Montreal Screwjob was a work. The cameras just happened to pick up on his life during this time? During the time Vince was really trying to get him and Shawn to make their feud feel like a shoot. His own brother stayed with the company? Vince didn't sue Bret for punching him in the face and Bret didn't sue Vince for defamation? Just seems like too many things happened perfectly. Plus it made sense for everyone involved. In a shoot style atmosphere, this would get Shawn and Vince over as heels forever, meanwhile Bret, near the end of his career, could take up a huge chunk of Ted Turner's money. It's no coincidence that almost exactly after the Montreal Screwjob did WWF start beating WCW.

It WAS a work, just a 1-sided work, that's the controversy, that's the screwjob. Vince knew exactly what he was doing and where he would go with it, and so did HBK. Bret did not.
They didn't sue because they were both guilty. They have it on video that Vince agreed to go ahead with ending things the way Bret wanted. Right before Bret went down to the ring, you hear Vince saying "I'm open to anything." Bret wanted to come out on Monday Night Raw and void the title and say good-bye to the fans. Instead, Vince screwed Bret. That's a breach of contract. Bret had creative control over his character for the last 30 days of his contract.
Bret didn't sue because he too could go to jail for assault for his little temper-tantrum.

Vince still argues that he did what he thought was best for everyone, and I almost believe that he believes that argument too.

On a side note, if you don't know what I mean when I say "The attitude era appealed to white trash more than anything" then watch this documentary. It almost makes you wanna take a shower after they talk to the audience and you see what these people are like.

That's not really a fair assessment. WWE travels EVERYWHERE, are the Canadian fans, the European fans, white trash too? Just because there's a few interviews and shots of WWE fans acting like rednecks in the deep south, doesn't mean everyone who likes the attitude era (btw I'm NOT a fan of the attitude era all that much myself) is a redneck.

On a different note, I have always respected Bret for the same reasons I've respected Bill Goldberg, because they took their characters seriously and wanting to be heroes to the kids and a role model for them, and they both had the same disagreement with the WWE's sleazy storylines. Bret just got out at the beginning, Goldberg left at the tail end of that crappy phase in the WWE.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

This was the last chat Bret had with Vince backstage before the screwjob. Keep in mind it was Vince that wanted out of the contract with Bret, and Vince that suggested Bret see if he could still get his deal with WCW after he turned it down.




Well, I'm certainly not a guy that will condone cheating, and I laughed at Bret's tell when he talked about Sunny and how she's very flirtatious but "we're just friends." More like she's a ****e and Bret liked it. But, while he did take his job very seriously, he wasn't taking himself that seriously. He was explaining how he had to get into the right mindframe of his character, and to an extent he agrees with it. Nothing wrong with that. I agree with that too, I, and Bret as well just didn't take it as far as his Hitman character did is all. He wasn't taking that seriously, that's why he agreed to be a heel, because otherwise he'd have been more like Cena, and kept it inside.

If you're looking at it from Bret's perspective, Bret is offered $9m over 3 years to go to WCW. Vince offers him less money but a contract for 20 years. That's stability and a guaranteed check until he's 60. Bret isn't 60 yet. Then less than a year later Vince comes to Bret and wants out? Sorry but I totally get Bret being irritated at that.



It WAS a work, just a 1-sided work, that's the controversy, that's the screwjob. Vince knew exactly what he was doing and where he would go with it, and so did HBK. Bret did not.
They didn't sue because they were both guilty. They have it on video that Vince agreed to go ahead with ending things the way Bret wanted. Right before Bret went down to the ring, you hear Vince saying "I'm open to anything." Bret wanted to come out on Monday Night Raw and void the title and say good-bye to the fans. Instead, Vince screwed Bret. That's a breach of contract. Bret had creative control over his character for the last 30 days of his contract.
Bret didn't sue because he too could go to jail for assault for his little temper-tantrum.

Vince still argues that he did what he thought was best for everyone, and I almost believe that he believes that argument too.



That's not really a fair assessment. WWE travels EVERYWHERE, are the Canadian fans, the European fans, white trash too? Just because there's a few interviews and shots of WWE fans acting like rednecks in the deep south, doesn't mean everyone who likes the attitude era (btw I'm NOT a fan of the attitude era all that much myself) is a redneck.

On a different note, I have always respected Bret for the same reasons I've respected Bill Goldberg, because they took their characters seriously and wanting to be heroes to the kids and a role model for them, and they both had the same disagreement with the WWE's sleazy storylines. Bret just got out at the beginning, Goldberg left at the tail end of that crappy phase in the WWE.

Okay, the WWE is primarily in the USA and yes, pretty much every show I've been to and every crowd shot shows a HUUUGE white trash audience. My girlfriend says that's why her parents didn't let her watch during the attitude era "only white trash hicks watch that crude shit". Also, YES, even the Canadian fans seemed "white trash". It was a trashy Jerry Springer show, it attracted white trash fans. What's so hard to understand about that?

I repsect guys who take themselves and their characters seriously, however, when you become a mark for yourself, then you make bad business decisions and you are unwilling to change. If you are unwilling to change with the business then you are bad at your job even if you were amazing before.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

The reason there were cameras is the same reason Vince McMahon couldn't stop this documentary from coming out: because the WWE had already agreed to allow the documentary to be done and therefore the footage to be taken, etc, etc. It was originally meant to be a documentary on Bret Hart, and it just so happened that the real life situation that was playing out became a fortunate "story" that the documentary followed.

The reason WWE pulled ahead and started beating WCW after this documentary came out and Bret left the WWE was because it was THIS situation that spawned the idea of the Vince McMahon character and it was that character, along with Steve Austin (who Bret Hart had helped to build up to the point of breaking out at this point), that pulled the viewers away from WCW and to WWE. One thing leads to another, cause and effect, and it all makes sense because of that. Vince McMahon adapted to a very REAL situation and took advantage of it, that makes him both lucky and smart.

I think it was a great thing that alot of the build-up to, and backstage reaction to probably the most controversial incident in wrestling history was captured on the independent documatery, allowing fans to really see what went on and listen in to some of the conversations following it.

I am still unsure as to which side I am on, as I can see and understand both sides.

Vince obviously didn't want a repeat of the Aludra Blayze incident, as the WWE title being trashed o WCW Nitro would have been a devastating blow to the credibility of his company, but I do not think he should have screwed Bret. He could have trusted a guy who had been so loyal to him over the years, although loyalty can be a tough thing in business.

HBK obviously was correct in believing Bret should have dropped the title when he was told to, as it is SHOW, and people should always do the right thing, but I think he was out of order in suggesting a screwjob, along with HHH.

Bret was wrong to try and insist that he didnt want to lose the belt to Michaels. As he was being given permission to leave the WWE, he should have done the right thing and done the job as he was requested to do, as that is the expected and traditional thing. Who cares who he dropped the belt to anyway? Would the fans have loved him less had he lost in Canada? People lose in their home town all the time, it would not have had any impact on his legacy

However, it was in his contract that he had creative control over his last month, so he was technically doing nothing wrong, so Vince should not have screwed him, Bret was in his rights to do what he did, and refuse to lose. However, for the sake of the business, I think Bret should have just swallowed his pride and lost to Michaels in Montreal, gone to WCW with no problems and this whole mess would have not been playing on his mind and making him bitter for 15 years.

Although, had that happened....would there have been a Mr McMahon heel character, which came about from the Screwjob and the famous "Bret screwed Bret!" speech? Would the Austin v McMahon storyline have happened? So many things would be different.

Overall, "Wrestling With Shadows" is a great film, I have seen it about 5x

 

[RicoLen]

I repsect guys who take themselves and their characters seriously, however, when you become a mark for yourself, then you make bad business decisions and you are unwilling to change. If you are unwilling to change with the business then you are bad at your job even if you were amazing before.

Even if the business is about catering to white trash which you can't seem to tolerate? Maybe instead, it IS time to leave for another company, if regretfully.

Bret was wrong to try and insist that he didnt want to lose the belt to Michaels. As he was being given permission to leave the WWE, he should have done the right thing and done the job as he was requested to do, as that is the expected and traditional thing.

Bret wasn't given permission to leave so much as he was told to leave because Vince wanted out of the 20 year contract he signed in order to keep Bret from going to WCW in the first place.

That's a very important detail. Bret would never have left at all had Vince not tried to get out of the contract and suggest that Bret should see if he could get his old deal WCW offered him.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

Shawn and Bret both acted like pieces of shit. The difference is Bret thought he was golden and Shawn admitted he was a dick.

Shawn has been asked a number of times about his politicking, the most I've ever heard him say about himself, is 'he was difficult' or he says 'Vince has never said that'. So that HBK has been honest about his ways, I have yet to see that.

Also after the event many people in the roster supported Bret. If they felt that Bret acted badly, why protest over the Screwjob ?

As far as Bret being angry, he feels he was wronged. After the event Vince went on to trash Bret every chance he could and was classless when it came to the Owen Hart tragedy, so I think he had every right to be pissed off with the way things ended.

 

[DoubleD]

How many people have seen this? It's basically a documentary about Bret Hart, it follows him through his contract negotiations and the montreal screwjob.

After seeing it with my girlfriend (who has a psychology degree) all I have to say is if you're still on Bret's side after watching this you're nuts.

Bret, especially knowing now that he cheated on his wife, seems like a huge scumbag. He takes himself too seriously, says the audience "is the real bad guy because they are cheering bad guys" when it's like dude, it's a fucking show, the audience is never wrong. He basically just bitches the whole time about how everyone is wrong except for him. Then when Vince tells him he can't afford his contract he bitches that Vince owes it to him. He bitches about how people don't think wrestling is real, it's just a bitch fest.

Also, I loled at the dungeon scenes. "You'd come home and hear some young man screaming from the basement with western music playing in the background" the audio they played sounded a lot like the rape scene from Pulp Fiction.

My final thoughts on it was that the Montreal Screwjob was a work. The cameras just happened to pick up on his life during this time? During the time Vince was really trying to get him and Shawn to make their feud feel like a shoot. His own brother stayed with the company? Vince didn't sue Bret for punching him in the face and Bret didn't sue Vince for defamation? Just seems like too many things happened perfectly. Plus it made sense for everyone involved. In a shoot style atmosphere, this would get Shawn and Vince over as heels forever, meanwhile Bret, near the end of his career, could take up a huge chunk of Ted Turner's money. It's no coincidence that almost exactly after the Montreal Screwjob did WWF start beating WCW.

On a side note, if you don't know what I mean when I say "The attitude era appealed to white trash more than anything" then watch this documentary. It almost makes you wanna take a shower after they talk to the audience and you see what these people are like.

I guess just respond to what I took from it and tell me what you think/thought of the documentary and my perspective.

I never thought it was a work as I wouldn't think Vince would be so forward to expose the business back then, but you do bring up interesting points as a counter argument. interesting perspective