That happened once, in a graphic novel. It was awesome. Superman won.
Wrestlemania 26 Observer Match Ratings
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That happened once, in a graphic novel. It was awesome. Superman won.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Marvel vs. DC? That thing SUCKED.
Take off the hardcore comics fan glasses off for 8 seconds and have some damn fun.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Art sucked, story made no sense, ending sucked.
Great idea though.
Great idea though.
I agree on all counts. I just enjoyed it because it was Marvel vs. DC!! In the same comic book!
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I thought the same thing and while the first bit was ok, it was like they threw up their hands and just said put anything you want in there to end it. They've bought the book by this point.
Pretty much. I still didn't care.
The spinoff comics seemed pretty awesome, like Clark Kent: Agent of SHIELD! I wasn't around for them so I wouldn't know; I only havemost all of my comics collection because my brother left them to me when he moved.
The spinoff comics seemed pretty awesome, like Clark Kent: Agent of SHIELD! I wasn't around for them so I wouldn't know; I only have
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Yeah that would be ok. I prefer Marvel to DC but DC is growing on me.
I have mostly Marvel, with stuff like Teen Titans and Outsiders from DC. Ooh, and the War Games and Identity Crisis sagas.
Via Armbar
Has a pretty good dick.
Don't really care how dead the crowd was or if they think it sucked, because when it came down to my opinion it was honestly awful. Before anyone starts with ''Well what the fuck did you think he was going to do? He's made of glass blah blah'' I wasn't expecting anything from the very beginning. Yet still, I was dumbfounded by the entire thing. It would have been so much better had they not bothered with the stupid double cross shit. As good as Bret is, he was never great at talking and his whole reveal or at least what he didn't stumble over was awkward. Add on the fact that the writing of this angle has been very lackluster from it's conception and you have a giant verbal mess.
Really, if they would have cut out the Hart family until the end and scrapped the double cross garbage it would have come off better. In the end, the crowd can add or take away from a match depending on their reactions. It shouldn't effect how one personally views a match though, and personally this fight was pretty bad. It came off as an average Raw segment, which would have no place at an otherwise good Wrestlemania.
Really, if they would have cut out the Hart family until the end and scrapped the double cross garbage it would have come off better. In the end, the crowd can add or take away from a match depending on their reactions. It shouldn't effect how one personally views a match though, and personally this fight was pretty bad. It came off as an average Raw segment, which would have no place at an otherwise good Wrestlemania.
The volume of the crowd at the event cannot be held as a barometer, unless you thought that John Cena, Edge, Bret Hart & Christian's entrances along with the last two minutes of Michaels and Taker were the only good things. The crowd were fucking dead, simple as that, and the matches should, as ever, be judged on their merit to you and you alone.
I did evaluate the Bret Hart-McMahon matchup that way Tasty, I was simply using the crowd's inability to care about the matter at hand as an example of why I thought the match did not live up to it's hype.
I wasn't expecting sick table spots, fisherman suplexes, chain wrestling or anything like that. I was just expecting a more entertaining beatdown than the one we got, which was a rather mediocre beatdown. That is all.
I wasn't expecting sick table spots, fisherman suplexes, chain wrestling or anything like that. I was just expecting a more entertaining beatdown than the one we got, which was a rather mediocre beatdown. That is all.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
The crowd was dead because you have a bunch of 10-15 year old morons who have no idea who Bret Hart is or how great he was.
The "wrestling" was shit. The "fighting" was shit. But it was easily worth 10-15 minutes of Wrestlemania. Bret Hart never had a proper send off, not even from WCW. Where else should it have been held? Raw? Fuck that. Bret Hart deserved this send off more than anyone I can think of. It's not his fault that some smarky ass crowd is "bored by some old dude wrestling." I say fuck the little kids and fans who do not know/respect Bret.
Sorry, I get a bit heated when talking about Bret, he was my favorite guy before Austin. I just think he deserved this moment, no matter how technically terrible it was.
The "wrestling" was shit. The "fighting" was shit. But it was easily worth 10-15 minutes of Wrestlemania. Bret Hart never had a proper send off, not even from WCW. Where else should it have been held? Raw? Fuck that. Bret Hart deserved this send off more than anyone I can think of. It's not his fault that some smarky ass crowd is "bored by some old dude wrestling." I say fuck the little kids and fans who do not know/respect Bret.
Sorry, I get a bit heated when talking about Bret, he was my favorite guy before Austin. I just think he deserved this moment, no matter how technically terrible it was.
No one is saying he didn't deserve it Nick, but I think the crowd not giving a fuck had a lot more to do with how poorly this angle has been executed and simply how mediocre of a "proper send-off brawl" that was. Just felt like they could have done so much more.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
I don't think they could have done any more. I think they could have done less (not bringing in the family). I have heard a million people say "If Bret wasn't able to compete, he shouldn't have gotten back into the game in the first place." And I say bullshit.
I say if Bret Hart wanted to squat down and take a shit in the ring, he should have been allowed to (ok, not really). My point is, I don't really care how the crowd reacted to this match. It means nothing to me. This was for fans like you and I who grew up watching Bret put on some of the best matches wrestling had to offer. 10-15 minutes of a 4 hour show is nothing to really complain about.
I say if Bret Hart wanted to squat down and take a shit in the ring, he should have been allowed to (ok, not really). My point is, I don't really care how the crowd reacted to this match. It means nothing to me. This was for fans like you and I who grew up watching Bret put on some of the best matches wrestling had to offer. 10-15 minutes of a 4 hour show is nothing to really complain about.
And again, I agree with you that the concept of having Bret Hart get his revenge at Wrestlemania on Vince McMahon is a great idea and one I whole-heartedly applaud. I'm just saying that the manner in which they executed Bret's "revenge" could have been better. The family storyline was lame, the actual beatdown portion was sloppy and uncoordinated, and it just didn't come off well at all. But, Bret got his revenge. I'm glad he got his revenge. But this doesn't change the fact that the match wasn't good enough to crack a *** rating. It just needed a little extra something to make it better than it was I'm afraid. I love Bret Hart, I do, but that was not a very good match and I'm not going to pretend it was like everyone else just based on respect for the guy.
Do you get where I'm coming from?
Do you get where I'm coming from?
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
Yes, I get where you are coming from, and my original post wasn't about opposing yours. But the point I am trying to make is that I don't believe this match should have even had a rating.
I agree that technically speaking, this was a shit match. But this was EXACTLY what I expected it to be. I didn't expect Bret to take one bump. I didn't even expect him to get punched. Bret looked old and weak while beating on Vince...and I don't care. So, in all honesty, I thought it came off as well as it could have. Bret wasn't able to do any more than he did. Physically, he just couldn't handle it.
And again, I know there are some people who are going to say that he should't have gotten in there to start with...and again, I say bullshit. One way or another, this had to happen. Sure, Bret and Vince could have gotten people to represent them, but that wouldn't have made it personal enough. This is quite possibly the most personal rivalry we have ever seen play out on television.
So I guess my main point is that I don't even think this should have been rated as a match, or a street fight. It was a segment that included some violence. To rate it as a match, I agree that it can't get past two or three stars. But I don't look at this as a "real" match, so I don't care about the rating.
I agree that technically speaking, this was a shit match. But this was EXACTLY what I expected it to be. I didn't expect Bret to take one bump. I didn't even expect him to get punched. Bret looked old and weak while beating on Vince...and I don't care. So, in all honesty, I thought it came off as well as it could have. Bret wasn't able to do any more than he did. Physically, he just couldn't handle it.
And again, I know there are some people who are going to say that he should't have gotten in there to start with...and again, I say bullshit. One way or another, this had to happen. Sure, Bret and Vince could have gotten people to represent them, but that wouldn't have made it personal enough. This is quite possibly the most personal rivalry we have ever seen play out on television.
So I guess my main point is that I don't even think this should have been rated as a match, or a street fight. It was a segment that included some violence. To rate it as a match, I agree that it can't get past two or three stars. But I don't look at this as a "real" match, so I don't care about the rating.
Via Armbar
Has a pretty good dick.
Should this have been billed as a match? Sure there could have been ways for creative to make it seem a little more competitive, even with Bret's inability to bump. Really though, it was to me a glorified Raw segment. Which if it were to happen on Raw, there would be no complaints from me. Instead though, they took something that was 13 years in the making and seemingly half assed the angle. I respect that they tried, especially under those circumstances, but it just could have been so much more. Honestly a confrontation between the two at Mania would have come off better as it wouldn't have been billed as a match in the first place. In the end though, they did bill it as a match (no holds barred or whatever the stipulation was is still considered a match only with altered rules) so it should be judged as one, and as a match it sucked. It is possible for you to expect very little from something and still have it come across badly. The end result should have happened regardless, but everything prior was very mediocre to poor.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
It was a bit half-assed, but having it all take place on Raw would have been even worse. Solving this situation on some random Monday night would have looked terrible, and would not have the kind of "feel" it deserved.
I agree it should have been billed more as a confrontation, as opposed to a real match. I have no problem with people bagging on the WWE's booking of this feud. To me, they didn't make it as "big" as I would have liked. But that has nothing to do with Bret. He deserved this send-off, and just to see McMahon and Bret Hart in the same ring is enough for me.
I agree it should have been billed more as a confrontation, as opposed to a real match. I have no problem with people bagging on the WWE's booking of this feud. To me, they didn't make it as "big" as I would have liked. But that has nothing to do with Bret. He deserved this send-off, and just to see McMahon and Bret Hart in the same ring is enough for me.
Totally agree Nick. I'm not criticizing Bret at all, just criticizing the manner in which this whole thing was booked. It just simply could have been so much better, and it's disappointing as a longtime wrestling fan to see. Nevertheless, Bret obviously deserved that match and send-off, and I'm glad it happened. Hopefully that won't be the last we see of him though, if I remember correctly I recall reading something in the Observer about Bret and Vince wanting to continue working together after Wrestlemania in different roles. I'm thinking Bret will really help the Hart Dynasty as a manager-type role, and if he did do that, I'd absolutely LOVE IT simply because just having Bret in their corner would be enough to get both Tyson and DH Smith over big-time on their own, and would be a real help to the WWE and the tag team division for the forseeable future.
You're a damn good poster Nick, glad to see you venture into the spam areas as well. I look forward to reading more of your stuff on here.
You're a damn good poster Nick, glad to see you venture into the spam areas as well. I look forward to reading more of your stuff on here.
FunKay the Inevitable
People Like Me, We Don't Play
In agree with them on much of the card. i thought the tag match should have had a better rating, I felt he overatted MITB and Jericho/Edge, but everything else is pretty dead on the money.
It's...Baylariat!
Team Finnley Baylor
Anyone who's reading too much into the Hart-McMahon match is losing the game. That match was simply a way for Hart to finally get legit closure after what happened to him. Basically, Vince said, 'Bret. You have around 20 minutes to do what you want to me. Chair, tire iron, whatever. Just get your licks in, and we'll be done with it.'
That's why the story was poorly executed. Vince or Bret didn't care about the story. The point was to make sure Hart had closure before he died. And to me, it accomplished that. If anyone 'rates' the match, they fail. It wasn't a match, as much as it was a simple glorified run-in by Hart. It wasn't made "big" because many didn't care. As what was said before, not many fans watched Hart during his heyday. Mind you, it was close to 13 years ago when Montreal took place.
And as far as fan reaction... in a normal match, the crowd's reaction dictates how OVER the match is, not how good it is. Sometimes, you can see a great match and the fans don't simply care. It's not due to their ring skills, it's due to the story or angle not being over with the fans.
That's why the story was poorly executed. Vince or Bret didn't care about the story. The point was to make sure Hart had closure before he died. And to me, it accomplished that. If anyone 'rates' the match, they fail. It wasn't a match, as much as it was a simple glorified run-in by Hart. It wasn't made "big" because many didn't care. As what was said before, not many fans watched Hart during his heyday. Mind you, it was close to 13 years ago when Montreal took place.
And as far as fan reaction... in a normal match, the crowd's reaction dictates how OVER the match is, not how good it is. Sometimes, you can see a great match and the fans don't simply care. It's not due to their ring skills, it's due to the story or angle not being over with the fans.
FunKay the Inevitable
People Like Me, We Don't Play
I think you're right Lariat. it was a beatdown, pure and simple. It gives Bret closure from th whole situation like you said and let's face facts, it wasn't like Vince said 'now Bret I'm going to gain the advantage and hit you in the back with chair'. He brought out the whole Hart family for Christ's sake. Vince did the job and most people were at least satisfied with that part of it. It did what it needed to do in other words.
johnnyblaze3:16
wwe smoking skull champion
i agree bret vs vkm was not the greatest match in history and was a verry poor "wrestling match" but its a close to montreal and the vkm persona. personally ive wanted to see bret get his hands on vince for 12 years and the match was a dud but the historical aspect saved it i do think they prob should put it lower on the card and it was the best that these old guys could do. i wish it could have been done years ago so it would be beliveable but even if bret was 100% vkm still cant wrestle and no matter what would have sucked it is what it is. as far as taker hbk... i would give it the 5 star treatment if they didnt botch the moonsault on the table. what hurt mania this year for me was the fact there was no ic title match no us title match (not like miz should go twice) but to me it once again took away the prestige behind the smaller belts. please tell me why the divas went out there in between title matches? totally killed the momentum for me