Why Should We Feel Bad For Bret, Again?

[Tenta]

I know, I know.... It's another Montreal thread. NorCal, Lariat, KB, and X all have due right to rip my head off right now for even thinking about doing a thread which is eventually going to lead to Montreal. But please, pardon me; this isn't about Montreal, at all. Well, it is, but the thread subject isn't Montreal. It's Bret, and his egotistical point of view. And if any of you can get me to have an iota of pity over what happened to Bret Hart that day, you will earn rep from me for a lifetime. At least, whenever I'm here. But it's very simple; why should I feel sorry for Bret Hart? Why should I believe that Bret didn't screw Bret?

Now, let's throw out some simple things; Montreal had nothing to do with Owen's Death, The Hart Family Curse, Bret's stroke, Dynamite Kid's metamorphisis into Gollum from Lord of the Rings, Stu having to sell Stampede Wrestling, or any of those other things. All of the other matters in life which were true tragedies for Bret Hart have nothing to do with Montreal. Maybe you could argue that Bret could've stopped Owen, but you'd be lying to yourself and the whole forum if you tell us you believe he could've stopped Owen. Montreal affected one man negatively, and one man alone; Bret Hart. Shit, it probably wasn't even that negative. If WCW had half a brain on how to book a wrestler, he could've been the biggest name in wrestling right now. Yes, probably better than Hogan. Still, Montreal really only hurt one person, and all of the other tragedies in Bret Hart's life are not a part of this argument. You don't have to have half a brain to make me feel bad for a guy having a stroke. But make me feel bad for a guy that got lied to by his boss? Go ahead, I dare you.

Was it because Bret Hart was fooled? Fuck, Vader warned him not to let Shawn get him in a submission hold, and the guy still wanted to comply with it. Why? Because it would have been a great spot, and the Hitman marked for himself to say that he could have called another fantastic spot in the match. All of the warning signs were there. I feel bad for guys that get tricked, when they had no reason to believe he would be tricked. Bret had every reason to believe he was going to get screwed; he really did. All he needed to do was look at Wendi Richter, fucking tweleve years later, when she was screwed by.... Oh hi, guess who did it?

Spoiler

I'm sure Gelgarin is going to come on here and tell me how Pat O' Conner got screwed in 1965 in the middle of Bumblefuck, but honestly, the only other screwjob I'm aware of is one between Kensuke Sasaki, and the One Man Gang, in 1995. Still, screwjob's weren't exactly an unprecedented matter. Typically, if you were a reigning champion, and were leaving the territory you were working with, you were going to get screwed, unless you were a great shoot fighter. Bret Hart probably is a great shoot fighter, but there's just one little problem;

Bret Hart is also a moron. A mark who would allow his own ego and inflated sense of self satisfaction as a "Canadian Hero" overlook the fact that he is, in no way, above his obligation to do the job, once he's leaving the company. It's a rite of passage, almost as old as the screwjob itself. Shit, it should be considered unprofessional to consider doing anything to job, if the company wants you to.

But no. Bret had his ego, and though he's say it's no bigger than Hogan's, we all know to be untrue. Still, the IWC takes up for him countless times, though if it were someone like John Cena that this happened to, the IWC would have a collective orgasm. The fact is, because Bret puts on great matches, we forgive his massive ego.

And the question is real simple.... Why?

 

[Theo Mays]

Yes we all know Bret has an ego near as big as Hogan's and many feel sorry for Hitman. I love Bret and always have. He is the reason I got into wrestling. Yeah the screwjob sucked for Bret, but I don't feel sorry for him. It brought a whole new chapter into wrestling. And you are right the screwjob didn't lead to all the tragedies that followed afterwards and those that believe so have some screws loose. We shouldn't feel sorry for Bret Hart, shit happens and he had some serious shit happen to him. But when shit happens, you know what you do? You get over it. You don't parade around to get people to feel sorry for you and make them think there is a reason to feel sorry for you.

Bret Hart is a legend in the wrestling business and everyone knows and respects that. He is one of the greatest wrestlers to lace up a pair of boots. I have nothing but great words to say about Hart and how much he got me into wrestling, but when it comes to the Screwjob, you are nothing but correct Tenta.

 

[TheThirdHebner]

Here's the thing: Hart had a contract that granted him creative control over his character, and it's not like he didn't want to do the right thing. He was willing to drop the belt. But McMahon wanted him to job to theo ne guy who had insisted he wouldn't job for Bret, who had insulted Bret's family, and who was Bret Hart's most hated rival, in Bret's home country, after he had given everything to the WWE, and done the right thing for them for years. In fact, he didn't even want to leave. He took less money to stay, and then Vince changed his mind, and forced him to leave.

So here's why you should feel bad for him: Bret wanted to stay, sacrificed to stay, was forced to leave, and then was embarrassed on his way out. To top it off, it's not like he demanded the title be on him at that time, Vince left it on him, even though he knew he wanted BRet to leave. So, yes, the Goldberg incident was a separate incident, but if Bret Hart had his way, he never would have been in the way of Goldberg's foot. It's not like this whole thing only happened at Survivor Series. This was an ongoing thing. Everyone says "do the right thing by the company", but why? Why shouldnt' the company have done the right thing by Bret? Why is it always considered a one way street? I feel like this is one of those things that a boss created somewhere, and everyone just repeats it now. "Do the right thing by your employer". Why? Bret's the one who sacrificed his body for years. If anything HE earned it for them to do right by him.

See, everyone in the business likes to paint it like it's this family, and everyone needs to take care of their family, but that only seems to work with the performers, because the federations use these guys up and then leave them when they have no further use. But because everyone pretends like it's a family, the wrestlers get fucked. they buy into that shit, so they really believe that the promoters care about them as individuals. Here's a clue: they don't. When Vince tells Bret that he's not going to screw him over, and agrees to let Hart keep the title, Bret assumes he'll keep his promise, because the wrestlers live by a code of honor that the promoters secretly fucking laugh at.

So was he naive as hell? Yeah, probably. But why shouldn't you feel bad for naive people? If you see a friend of yours dating this chick, and she's constantly cheating on him, only he won't believe it, you won't feel bad for him?

*steps off soapbox*

 

[shafe_41]

Simple. We shouldn't. And for one simple reason, if the Screwjob never happened, Bret Hart wouldn't have had half of the publicity he had through the years. You can write that down. He wouldn't have and you know it. Bret milked that stunt for all it was worth as much as he could to make people feel bad for him, to make money from it, and to try to have people side with him and hate on Vince. Sure Vince makes some harsh decisions, but running a billion dollar company isn't all puppies, rainbows, smiles, cake, and unicorns. Vince had to preserve his company and its name and did what he felt was necessary.

Bret wanted to make us believe he was the one and only victim of the whole ordeal. And while he was partially right, I believe everybody else was a victim as well. Bret for obvious reasons. Shawn because he was young and still getting bigger as a superstar so he had to go along with the boss. If he didn't, who knows what would have happened to HBK. You could argue Vince would have fired his ass, HBK ends up in WCW, and who knows what happens from there. HBK might not have had a career beyond that night in the WWE(F). Vince was a victim himself because had one Alundra Blayze not done what she did, Vince would have never had to make that decision at SSeries. And the biggest victim of all... the wrestling fans. Bret's ego wouldn't let Shawn win cleanly in Canada. Big deal. Guess what Bret? You are NOT Canada's national hero. There is not going to be a bronze statue of you anywhere in Canada. Your name is not going to be inserted into Canada's national anthem.

So why let your huge ego get the best of you? Oh that's right... Hulk Hogan Syndrome. You think you are bigger than the WWE(F). Now another thread could be made (and probably has been made) to argue that Hogan was bigger than the WWE(F). I've said it many times, if there was no Hulk Hogan, there would be no WWE today. I will believe that until I die. But that's for another day. Bret Hart's pink and black were hardly conquering the globe like Hogan's red and yellow. Nor would they ever do so. Bret believed he WAS wrestling. He has said sometimes he took the business too seriously, but that raises an interesting point. How serious is too serious when it's your career? Your family's livelihood? Your life? Your entire family's lifeline? I don't think you can. If you don't take what you do seriously, you get the can. But Bret took it to a new level. Refusing to drop a fake title (because let's face it, the WWE Championship, isn't exactly a real life championship of anything), to a fake character of Shawn Michaels, in a business of storylines and entertainment? It would be like making a movie of the Titanic, and if the ship was an actual character, the Titanic refuses to sink. Or *spoiler alert* The Departed an DiCaprio refuses to die coming out of the elevator. Or ET refusing to phone home. It's entertainment Bret. ENTERTAINMENT. YOU ARE NOT A REAL WORLD CHAMPION OF ANYTHING. YOU NEVER WILL BE. Yes you are great at what you do. Nobody is denying that. But you fake fight for a living. You get paid to fake fight. Tons of money, to pretend to get beat up. All hard work and bumps aside, it's still entertainment at the end of the day. And you Bret are not bigger than the WWE. You are not bigger than wrestling. Which brings all of this full circle. The fans lost big time because of your selfishness. You will be held at a high standard for the rest of your life, but also with a name that is somewhat tarnished and a career that I truly believe will always remain incomplete.

We shouldn't feel bad for Bret. We should feel worse for ourselves for missing out on one of the greatest talents this business we love called professional wrestling has ever seen, sees right now, or will ever see. His ego cost him years of his career, and cost us fans many great matches we could have seen. I think Bret Hart will be the greatest "What If?" story ever. Only time will tell otherwise. Bret may have screwed Bret. Bret may not have screwed Bret. But I think the one thing we all can agree on is that Bret Hart's worst enemy... was himself.

 

[Tenta]

Ah, I like you. This should hopefully be good stuff.
Seeing as how your name is Hebner, I'm quite interested you'd be making this counter argument.

Here's the thing: Hart had a contract that granted him creative control over his character, and it's not like he didn't want to do the right thing.

Oh really? Typically, the right thing is that when you're leaving is to do the job to the guy that is placed before you. You don't get to pick, that's the booker's job. If Vince wanted him to lose to the Brooklyn Brawler, that's what he does, period, end of story.

Oh yes, you do point out that pesky "Creative Control" manner. The same that was in the very same contract that was, mind you, breached by both both parties. Once that contract is "breached", Heb, can you tell me what that makes it?

That's right, Hebner..... Null and Void. Vince didn't have to accept Bret's creative control. Not like he had to anyway; he's the boss. And any firm boss knows that, even with Creative Control, they are still the ones in control. Shit, if Bret wanted to, he could've gone on WCW Programming, and Vince couldn't do anything, as both parties breached contract. Alas, Bret didn't, because of some ill found smug sense of pride in being a "Canadian Hero"

He was willing to drop the belt.

No, he wasn't. He wasn't willing to drop it to Shawn. Because he didn't want Shawn's kayfabe character to get the one up on him forever. Even though, you know, that happened anyway. Oh hindsight, how foolish you make the Hitman seem

But McMahon wanted him to job to theo ne guy who had insisted he wouldn't job for Bret, who had insulted Bret's family, and who was Bret Hart's most hated rival, in Bret's home country, after he had given everything to the WWE, and done the right thing for them for years.

I'm going to stop you right there, because I know the argument; Vince should have changed the card. Ok, let's think realistically here. And by realistically, i mean business wise. Everything Bret Hart wasn't. You know, because he has to be the fucking Hitman 24/7.

LEt's say you're booking a pay per view. And to cap off that pay per view, you have the absolute hottest feud in wrestling. Both the IWC and the fans fucking ate that shit up. It was legitimate hatred. It was a war to settle the score. And no less, there was homefield advantage involved. This would be The Iron Man Match of Wrestlemania 12, except:

It wouldn't be nearly as long, nor boring
The crowd would be red hot
It was for the title
Tensions were high among them
They'd been building this feud ever since fucking Wrestlemania 12.

And you're really going to pull the rug from under the fans, no less the PPV providers, and give them something else.... Just because someone doesn't want to do a job?

How realistic is that?

In fact, he didn't even want to leave. He took less money to stay, and then Vince changed his mind, and forced him to leave.

Yeah.... Because keeping Bret was going to Bankrupt the WWE. Plain and simple. Bret's contract was an albatross for the E, and without getting rid of it, Vince would have been reduced to a lower territory.

Besides, if Bret had any assurance WCW wouldn't fuck him up, would he have stayed that long? The only reason he didn't jump was simple... Vince McMahon dangled one line over Bret's head:

"WCW doesn't know how to book a Bret Hart."

Now, it was right, but again, Bret cared so damn much for his fucking kayfabe character. And he only got upset with Vince... When? When his fake kayfabe character was made a fool on television. That was the only time he objected to Vince.

So here's why you should feel bad for him:

Ok

Bret wanted to stay

Because he was so worried about his kayfabe character

sacrificed to stay

Though he eventually left anyway. Besides, the deal which made him stay was over twenty years. Twenty straight years of constant pay checks? Yeah, that's fucking sacrificing.

was forced to leave

As Vince negotiated him to a better fucking deal in WCW

and then was embarrassed on his way out

And again, you're asking me to feel bad for his fake, kayfabe character. And though Bret may have trouble distinguishing the two, I don't. No sympathy

To top it off, it's not like he demanded the title be on him at that time, Vince left it on him, even though he knew he wanted BRet to leave.

Slow your roll. By the time Vince "wanted" him to leave, it was by the time Vince booked Survivor Series already, and got the advertising out. Then, he heard what Eric offered Bret. Again, it's not like he was sitting all September and October thinking of ways to fuck with Bret.

So, yes, the Goldberg incident was a separate incident, but if Bret Hart had his way, he never would have been in the way of Goldberg's foot.

Uh, yeah it would?

Why?

Because he'd still be in fucking WCW anyway! It was never a question that Bret was going to be in WCW. And if he wanted a great pay day, of course he was going to face Goldberg. Besides, that kick was as unlucky as they come. It was nothing more than a freak accident.

It's not like this whole thing only happened at Survivor Series. This was an ongoing thing. Everyone says "do the right thing by the company", but why?

Because,

A. It's your boss
B. Everyone else in history has done the same, and you're no different
C. That Company made you.

Why shouldnt' the company have done the right thing by Bret?

People get screwed at work. Shit happens.

You wanna take Bret's sob story to the unemployed line in Detroit?

Why is it always considered a one way street?

Because, in the corporate world, it really is.

I feel like this is one of those things that a boss created somewhere, and everyone just repeats it now. "Do the right thing by your employer". Why? Bret's the one who sacrificed his body for years. If anything HE earned it for them to do right by him.

That line in Detroit is really crying for you...

See, everyone in the business likes to paint it like it's this family, and everyone needs to take care of their family, but that only seems to work with the performers, because the federations use these guys up and then leave them when they have no further use. But because everyone pretends like it's a family, the wrestlers get fucked. they buy into that shit, so they really believe that the promoters care about them as individuals. Here's a clue: they don't. When Vince tells Bret that he's not going to screw him over, and agrees to let Hart keep the title, Bret assumes he'll keep his promise, because the wrestlers live by a code of honor that the promoters secretly fucking laugh at.

No one ever disputed this. The problem is, for years, Bret was the worst offender. A mark for his own name, his brand, wrestling in general. He'll always defend wrestling because he feels wrestling is him.

Except, you know, when it's actually happening to him. Then it's a screwjob.

So was he naive as hell? Yeah, probably. But why shouldn't you feel bad for naive people? If you see a friend of yours dating this chick, and she's constantly cheating on him, only he won't believe it, you won't feel bad for him?

Partially. But the guy is also bringing it on himself. Cheating, and wrestling, are two manners in which you know you're getting fucked. So why cry about it when it actually happens

*steps off soapbox*

I'm glad you did

 

[Via Armbar]

Nobody needs to debate Hart's contributions to the business. It would be the same as arguing Savage's or Hogan's or Flair's and so on. The man has done wonders for the WWE and the wrestling industry in general.

With that out of the way...Hart's massive ego goes generally undiscussed. Why this is, I'm not sure. Could have to do with how much he is loved within the IWC, it could be because Hogan and Flair are usually the focal points of such conversations. Either way you have to look at it like this: Hart let the idea that he is some national Canadian hero get in the way of better judgment. He had worked with Vince for a number of years and must have known the man pretty damn well. There should have been no reason as to why he should completely trust Vince regarding a disagreement as big as the one leading up to Montreal. Hours of testimonials by former employees of the WWE should have been a saving grace, there should have been at least an ounce of skepticism in Hart's mind. Instead that mind was clouded with self-praise. He had every right to be proud of what he's done, but there had to be a limit. Nobody's definition of self worth should hinder their judgment. He let this happen.

Was he wrong to want what he did? Was he wrong to feel that he would be letting a whole country down if he had lost the title in front of them? That's something that can't be argued because he really felt this way. I can understand where he was coming from, why it was important to him. It also doesn't mean that Vince was totally wrong in what he did to protect his business. People are split on Montreal and always will be. Nonetheless it came down to Bret letting it happen. All the evidence was pointing to him getting screwed. He was told by close friends about what could and most likely would transpire had he let it. Why someone would ignore all of these things is beyond me. He has the right be pissed about it sure, but he shouldn't feel screwed. I'll refrain from saying Bret screwed Bret, but he certainly left himself open for the screwing. So nobody should feel sorry for him.

 

[pyrusane]

So I'm the Sr. Vice President for a major organization (work with me here). I've been in this position for quite a long time, and I'm fairly well respected by my peers and colleagues. Eventually, though, I decide it's time to move on to a new company. So, I have the following conversation with the CEO.

"Sir, I really love my office and my title, and I want to make sure that they are both still respected after I'm gone. So I'd like to request that they be given to Kenny from accounting, or maybe Stan from the mail-room. Both of those guys are great guys. But whatever you decide, please don't give them to Westcott."

"Now, I realize that Westcott has been groomed to take my place for the last couple of years, and that he's really the only person in any kind of position to handle the job and the responsibilities that go with it, but, well, I really don't like that guy. He was rude to me at the office picnic, and he called my wife fat."

"If you have to promote Westcott, then how about you just retire my title and seal off my office, and create a new title, and build a new office, and Westcott can have those after I leave? That way at least I don't have to think about him putting his feet up on my desk..."

Then of course, on my last day at the company, as I am getting ready to walk out the door with my last box, Westcott walks into my office, puts his nameplate on the door, sis down in the chair and puts his feet up on the desk. Do you feel sorry for me? Of course not. I had absolutely no right to make such a ridiculous demand, asking for a mail-room clerk or a low level accountant to be placed in one of the highest positions in the company because the guy, the only guy, who was actually ready for the job at the time was a guy that I had a personal beef with.

This is the exact scenario that Bret created. Because of his personal dislike of Shaun Michaels, he refused to do the job. Shaun was the only person who realistically could have been the champion at that point, and yet Bret tried to take his legs out from under him by offering to "vacate" the title on RAW the next night. Which would have led to a tournament where Shawn could win the title without actually beating the champion. In this scenario, Shaun's title reign means fuck-all because he didn't beat anyone to get it. It's the equivalent of asking the company to build the new guy a brand new office so that the new guy can't put his feet up on the desk that I am never going to sit behind again.

So no, we shouldn't feel sorry for Bret. Bret does a good enough job feeling sorry for himself...

 

[drobs85]

Ah, I like you. This should hopefully be good stuff.
Seeing as how your name is Hebner, I'm quite interested you'd be making this counter argument.



Oh really? Typically, the right thing is that when you're leaving is to do the job to the guy that is placed before you. You don't get to pick, that's the booker's job. If Vince wanted him to lose to the Brooklyn Brawler, that's what he does, period, end of story.

Oh yes, you do point out that pesky "Creative Control" manner. The same that was in the very same contract that was, mind you, breached by both both parties. Once that contract is "breached", Heb, can you tell me what that makes it?

That's right, Hebner..... Null and Void. Vince didn't have to accept Bret's creative control. Not like he had to anyway; he's the boss. And any firm boss knows that, even with Creative Control, they are still the ones in control. Shit, if Bret wanted to, he could've gone on WCW Programming, and Vince couldn't do anything, as both parties breached contract. Alas, Bret didn't, because of some ill found smug sense of pride in being a "Canadian Hero"



No, he wasn't. He wasn't willing to drop it to Shawn. Because he didn't want Shawn's kayfabe character to get the one up on him forever. Even though, you know, that happened anyway. Oh hindsight, how foolish you make the Hitman seem



I'm going to stop you right there, because I know the argument; Vince should have changed the card. Ok, let's think realistically here. And by realistically, i mean business wise. Everything Bret Hart wasn't. You know, because he has to be the fucking Hitman 24/7.

LEt's say you're booking a pay per view. And to cap off that pay per view, you have the absolute hottest feud in wrestling. Both the IWC and the fans fucking ate that shit up. It was legitimate hatred. It was a war to settle the score. And no less, there was homefield advantage involved. This would be The Iron Man Match of Wrestlemania 12, except:

It wouldn't be nearly as long, nor boring
The crowd would be red hot
It was for the title
Tensions were high among them
They'd been building this feud ever since fucking Wrestlemania 12.

And you're really going to pull the rug from under the fans, no less the PPV providers, and give them something else.... Just because someone doesn't want to do a job?

How realistic is that?




Yeah.... Because keeping Bret was going to Bankrupt the WWE. Plain and simple. Bret's contract was an albatross for the E, and without getting rid of it, Vince would have been reduced to a lower territory.

Besides, if Bret had any assurance WCW wouldn't fuck him up, would he have stayed that long? The only reason he didn't jump was simple... Vince McMahon dangled one line over Bret's head:

"WCW doesn't know how to book a Bret Hart."

Now, it was right, but again, Bret cared so damn much for his fucking kayfabe character. And he only got upset with Vince... When? When his fake kayfabe character was made a fool on television. That was the only time he objected to Vince.



Ok



Because he was so worried about his kayfabe character



Though he eventually left anyway. Besides, the deal which made him stay was over twenty years. Twenty straight years of constant pay checks? Yeah, that's fucking sacrificing.



As Vince negotiated him to a better fucking deal in WCW




And again, you're asking me to feel bad for his fake, kayfabe character. And though Bret may have trouble distinguishing the two, I don't. No sympathy



Slow your roll. By the time Vince "wanted" him to leave, it was by the time Vince booked Survivor Series already, and got the advertising out. Then, he heard what Eric offered Bret. Again, it's not like he was sitting all September and October thinking of ways to fuck with Bret.




Uh, yeah it would?

Why?

Because he'd still be in fucking WCW anyway! It was never a question that Bret was going to be in WCW. And if he wanted a great pay day, of course he was going to face Goldberg. Besides, that kick was as unlucky as they come. It was nothing more than a freak accident.



Because,

A. It's your boss
B. Everyone else in history has done the same, and you're no different
C. That Company made you.



People get screwed at work. Shit happens.

You wanna take Bret's sob story to the unemployed line in Detroit?



Because, in the corporate world, it really is.



That line in Detroit is really crying for you...




No one ever disputed this. The problem is, for years, Bret was the worst offender. A mark for his own name, his brand, wrestling in general. He'll always defend wrestling because he feels wrestling is him.

Except, you know, when it's actually happening to him. Then it's a screwjob.



Partially. But the guy is also bringing it on himself. Cheating, and wrestling, are two manners in which you know you're getting fucked. So why cry about it when it actually happens



I'm glad you did

How would Bret hart have bankrupt WWE. Was he the highest paid wrestler ever in the company. What was it about his contract that wouldve caused wwe to go bankrupt. The same company that has had much bigger names than his.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I don't really "feel bad" for Bret...but he did get screwed. You made a lot of great points about how everyone seems to give Bret a pass on everything he has ever done wrong because of other tragic incidents in his life, and I think in some situations that is absolutely true. But one thing you overlooked was the fact that Bret DID NOT want to go to WCW.

He turned down WCW's original offer, and was going to sign a twenty year deal with the WWF. Vince TOLD HIM to go to WCW after he decided he didn't want to spend the money on Bret because he had other rising stars to take his place. From Brets point of view, it was going to be a friendly parting (between he and Vince, not between he and Shawn, of course). Vince said he understood that Bret had to do what was right for Bret (financially), so there would be no hard feelings.

Like I said, I don't really feel sorry for Bret in this particular situation, but I do believe he got the raw end of the deal. He was lied to, plain and simple. Vince lied to him. Vince was too chicken-shit to fight with him over how the match would end, so what did Vince do? He lied to Bret and changed the ending without telling him. VINCE SCREWED BRET!

I don't care if you feel sorry for him, that is your business. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But don't leave out key facts like Bret NOT wanting to go to WCW. He wanted to be with the WWF for his entire career. Vince wanted him out, or just didn't want to pay him. Vince should have been straight up with Bret, and he wasn't.

 

[Trouble in Paradise]

Bret Hart screwed Bret Hart pure and simple Vince said that correctly. But really Bret should be thanking WWE for all this really he's still getting a nice paycheck from WWE and he still has some pop with the crowd.

Besides Bret wouldn't job in his last match which is bad come on you owe the company they made you and you thank them for it not they made you and you still win when your leaving there company to go to a rival.

But this was a great thread which I agree with.

 

[Cookie14]

There are only 2 reasons why people feel sorry for, no, pity, Bret Hart. Older fans do because of all the things that have happened to him, and his family since. Nothing to do with the 'Screwjob' (I even disagree with calling it a screwjob, since he was origonally booked to lose the match anyways). I would feel sorry for anyone who went trough some of the things Bret has in his personal life. Then I would respect them for picking themselves up, and movong on with their life, something Bret has not done. Because of this, the only feeling it is possible to have for Bret is pity.


The second reason is time. He has basically had no involvement in wrestling since WCW closed. Younger fans hear how great a wrestler he was, watch his matches on the internet, and because WWE has not told the younger fans the full story of the screwjob on tv for the younger fans, they believe what they are told to believe. They mark out, because Bret is being made out to be 'the ultimate good guy in the fight against the evil Vincent Kennedy McMahon', backed by kids favourite John Cena, to show that this is a guy they are supposed to like. Us older fans mark out for the overdue return of one of the biggest names in wrestling history. But, for me at least, he is already overstaying his welcome

 

[Ben G]

i never saw the screwjob as that big of a deal anyway... i only started watching wrestling in in 2003 so maybe thats part of the reason but come on, wasnt he scripted to lose the match anyway? all vince did was make it a little more interesting which im sure helped put HBK over big time

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I'm so glad someone came out with this perspective on Bret Hart. We've seen the posts about the Montreal incident and the aftermath and what might have been and all of that. But to see a post that talks about why we should be sympathetic of Hart in the first place is much needed.

Hart had an ego that rivaled any of his peers. We're talking HBK, Stone Cold, Flair, Hogan. You name the star, his ego was on par with them. He believed he was a superior wrestler to the majority of his peers and he thought he should go over them. HBK is a great example of that. His ego wouldn't let him just simply have a great match with him and drop the belt in a hard fought match. No.....Hart wanted to leave on HIS terms, not Vince's. McMahon was already content on having him go, because the money he was being offered in WCW would not be matched by Vince. Pretty simple. All Hart had to do was swallow his pride, have a damn good match, and put HBK over.

But Hart wouldn't do it. He felt he deserved to have things done differently for him. Despite his time in the company, and his time in the ring, Hart wasn't above the wrestlers. Vince is the first and the last in that company. Whether it was Hogan or Flair, or Savage and Stone Cold, Vince always has the last word and your legacy doesn't factor into the equation. Hart knew this, and was naive to believe otherwise.

I feel sorry for Bret NOW, because of his stroke and him trying to put past differences aside, but those are differences he created in the first place. He made the decision to NOT drop the title, so Vince made the decision for him. It's his company and if that's what he thought was best for the company, than so be it. But having sympathy over what happened to Hart in Montreal is unwarranted. He had his huge payday and he got the attention he wanted. So in the end. Everyone wins.

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

Wow. Can't believe all the hating going on. Have you never stood up for yourselves? Do you let your boss take craps on you? Thats sad. Have you ever once considered that Bret has been around wrestling his whole life and many of the past wrestlers were cut throat and would do anything to be champ. Hell Hogan took the belt right out of his hands as a demand for showing up to Wrestlemania IX and never returned the favor. Micheals himself backed out of a match to drop the belt back to Bret, but I guess it's ok when Sean does it. I believe thats when he "lost his smile". It was discussed way before the match was booked that Bret would drop the belt to anyone but Sean. I believe that was reasonable seeing as though Sean wouldn't drop it to him.


Back on topic. How can you not feel sorry for a guy that worked as hard as he did, kept people safe like he did, delt with a small talent pool like he did, waited a long time before he got his break like he did, got screwed by hogan like he did, trusted Vince who was like a father to him and got kicked in the sack when he wasn't looking.

You mention Bret's ego. Where does this come from?? Very few wrestlers have anything bad to say about him. People who have met him before and after the stroke say he's the nicest guy and down to earth. He has the support of the Undertaker and Stone Cold for sure. I really don't get it. Jelousy issues? Hard on for Sean? Don't get it. Do you look down apon him because after 12 years of eating him from the inside he let go his issues and returned to the world that was and is his life? That he grew up in? Thats sad.

Now, as far as your dis-belief in Bret being a Canadian Hero I would like to say, Yes. Yes he was. Not so much for being champ and giving Canada some recognition, but for his rants, although scripted on the US. Many of us agreed and cheered him on in this. The US beat Canada in the World Cup of Hockey in 1996 and we were not happy. It was nice to see a canuck stick up for us. He's #39 in a poll that crowned the greatest Canadian. Right after Mario freakin Lemieux and before John Candy for cripes sakes. This was voted on so obviously your opinion is different then MANY others.

In conclusion, stop the Bret hating and ejoy this final run. He is an amazing story teller and if 1% of him rubs off on todays talent we will be better for it.

Prediction: Bret is faking his injury to get Vince close enough for an attack.

 

[HatchetMan84]

I only feel bad for Bret for the things that happened to him Post-WWE, like his stroke, his divorce, Owen's death, his parents dying, etc...

I was too young to understand the screwjob, even though i remember it. I believe Bret's side of the story about not taking the Belt to WCW, but at the same time Vince had to protect his business and not take chances, so i don't know who to believe.

I am angry at Bret even still though, for being so distant to the WWE for all those years when the business was just absolutley DYING to honor him and work with him in some way. But time heals all wounds, so Bret was bound to come back sooner or later. He is a hart and wrestling is in his blood....

 

[Hitman_Attitude_Era_Forev]

Why is montreal still being talked about? I think everybody involved has moved on (including bret) from it so people who weren't should be able to. Besides if you're not canadian, then you shouldn't say for a fact whether he's a canadian hero or not. let the canadians decide for themselves and just let the man enjoy himself. if Hogan and Flair can constantly come back in their
50s why cant bret have one last hoorah?

 

[PsychoWard]

Tenta is right, we shouldn't feel sorry for Bret because of the screw job. And no doubt Bret didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn because of his ego and they way he felt about Shawn.

I don't really feel sorry for him about the screw job. And I don't really think Bret screwed himself and I don't think Vince screwed Bret.

Business is business, Bret leaving the WWE for WCW he should know that Vince wasn't going to let him just vacate the belt the next night. Bret did what was best for him and taking the guaranteed big money from WCW. Vince did what was best for WWE and that was not just gift wrapping the Hitman on a silver plater to WCW.

Anyways this is over, I'm going to enjoy the time we get to have with Bret, Vince and whoever gets involved in this story line. I think they are doing a great build up to the eventual climax with Vince in a sharpshooter in my opinion it will be epic.

 

[harrythem]

You mention Bret's ego. Where does this come from?? Very few wrestlers have anything bad to say about him. People who have met him before and after the stroke say he's the nicest guy and down to earth. He has the support of the Undertaker and Stone Cold for sure. I really don't get it. Jelousy issues? Hard on for Sean? Don't get it. Do you look down apon him because after 12 years of eating him from the inside he let go his issues and returned to the world that was and is his life? That he grew up in? Thats sad.

My first post and I'm already using the quote thing! Woohoo me!

I'm a Bret Hart fan, always have been always will be but, to say he doesn't have a huge ego is a load of rubbish! If you've watched the Hitman DVD/Wrestling With Shadows or anything general speaking he's done the guy is his own biggest mark! From his view that his book is the only wrestling book that tells an "honest" appraisal of wrestling history at that time is one of the greatest in a long line of whoppers from his mouth...right up there with saying he enjoyed snubbing Hogan at the HOF the other year (which was only a few years after saying "there are few things in life that are genuine, but Hulk Hogan is one of them."

I have no sympathy for Bret for Montreal, I did at the time but the consistent moaning about it and Vince (McMahon and Russo) using it on TV all the time really make me go merrr about it. Fact is I've stuck up for myself when I was leaving a job before and it worked out so well that I got the worst possible reference they could give me. Why? Because I wanted to leave on my terms and, at the end of the day, if you're on the clock you're there to do as your told and how you're told to.

Bret claimed he loved the WWF and saw Vince like a father figure so, if your dad was helping you to earn more money elsewhere so you'd be set for life and his highly money losing company wouldn't go out of business, surely the least you could do is what he wants on your way out, especially as there was no-one else to put the belt on (was clear they were saving Austin to win it for the first time at Mania and 'Taker was already heading towards the Kane feud).

Fact is Bret is on the same level of ego as Hogan and Flair, it's just not mentioned as much due to all the tragedies in his life over the years and, more importantly, although he's always blowing his own horn, he's not as full of crap as Hogan or Flair (or even Kurt Angle, man he's full of more shit then a toilet at a music festival).

So Vince screwed Bret is true but, even worse, Bret was trying to screw the fans out of a main event level champion, and that's the worst thing of all.

 

[Dre Guevara]

the only times that I've felt bad 4 Bret was....

1) when Owen died
2) suffering the stroke
3) the death of his parents

as 4 the Montreal Screwjob, I see 4 what it was, 2 guys who were competing 2 be the top dog in the WWF @ the time, it's just un4tunate that one of them, I won't mention any names, had his head so far up Vinnie Mac's @$$, he could probably tell what the n!gg@ had 4 breakfast, lunch & dinner that year.

the only person I'm feeling bad 4 is Vince McMahon, yes, I know this is a storyline, but Vince is gonna get the crap beaten outta him @ Mania, & I'm gonna be blasting James Brown's "The Big Payback" during the match.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

To some degree, I agree with Tenta on this. I'm one of the minority that feels that maybe Bret really did deserve what happened in Montreal. It's always been a time honored tradition in wrestling promotions going as far back as anyone can remember that a champion leaving the promotion drops the title. I don't see what gave Bret Hart the right to feel that tradition shouldn't apply to him in this case because he was wrestling in his home country and due to his personal dislike of HBK.

I love Bret Hart, always have. I'm a fan of the man but I think he was wrong in this case. I'm not a Vince mark by any stretch, but there are times when he's right. Common sense dictates that you're supposed to do what your boss wants you to do. However, in this situation, Vince McMahon had no leverage to use against Hart. He couldn't just fire him because Bret Hart's last contractually obligated match was against HBK that night. Vince didn't want the risk of Bret Hart showing up on Nitro carrying the WWF Championship and throw the belt in a trash can or doing something else like Madusa Micelli did with the WWF Women's Championship. Bret Hart said he'd never have done that and I believe him, but I couldn't blame Vince for being paranoid.

Overall, when it comes to the Montreal Screwjob, there was no real good guy and bad guy. Vince did what he did. I don't necessarily think its right but, then again, we don't live in a black and white world no matter how much some may try to say that we do. Bret Hart wasn't right either because he didn't do what a professional is supposed to do. He could have been the bigger man, he could have moved on to bigger and better things, he could have just held out his hand and said "I don't like you Shawn, but I do wish you the best and good luck". Bret didn't do that and I can't really say that I blame him for that either. Whatever feelings anyone thought they were justified in having is something I'm not going to get into. The way they behaved and acted based on those feelings is something else.

I feel sorry for the problems Bret Hart has had in his life. I'm sorry that his marriage ended, both of them actually. I'm sorry that his body has suffered the wear and tear on the road. I'm sorry that his little brother died, especially during a ppv I was watching, I'm sorry that he suffered a stroke. But that doesn't mean that I think he was right about the Screwjob.

 

[Cookie14]

I'm trying to look at this whole thing from another angle. I think that the 'Screwjob' would have never been anywhere near as big an issue if WCW had utilised Bret properly. WWF made 'Mr McMahon' into the ultimate heel, and in doing so, capitalised on the reaction from the screwjob. WCW did nothing, didn't even mention the srewjob to my knowledge.
If Bret had been used properlt, and been a success in WCW, then IMO, the screwjob would have been long forgotten by now.

 

[theHeadliner]

I don't feel bad for Bret on account of what happened. He was as good as done once he signed that huge contract with Vince and got one over on him. Vince always needs to get the last laugh for his ego. He got the huge money for the WWF at the time and 2 perks that put the power into the talent. He basically leveraged Vince by getting the deal with WCW in order to go back and negotiate that crazy deal with the WWF, in essence going behind Vince's back.

Also, with that much money invested in Bret he should have took the initiative and went to production and booking meetings to put his 2 cents in about the direction of creative and his character. He blames Shawn and HHH for being on the booking committee and tearing his character down. That could have easily been prevented by him simply getting his money worth out of that huge contact and participating. Shawn and HHH were just being pro-active and involved because they cared about the company and it being successful. Bret just rode the wave and did what they told him, and then he would complain after but not do anything about it. Its his fault he didn't try to be part of the meetings, and maybe that would have lead to less tension with Shawn because they would've been face to face working things out instead of going behind each other's back.

 

[TheThirdHebner]

Partially. But the guy is also bringing it on himself. Cheating, and wrestling, are two manners in which you know you're getting fucked. So why cry about it when it actually happens

AH HA!!! You said partially! I choose to ignore any other implications, and take this as a victory!

Seriously, though, I do feel a bit bad for Bret over everything that happened, and even the Screwjob itself, but most of what i wrote was just because you issued a challenge. In reality, I do think Bret bears part of the blame for what happened to him, and as you point out, it's hard to feel bad for really rich people and their politics given the current economic climate.

 

[Tastycles]

I think it's all too easy to look at Vince as the big bad boss man who favoured Shawn Michaels and let him get away with not doing the job and then turing on Bret because he repaid the favour. Shawn Michaels may have spent the best part of two years being a complete tool, but for the sake of professionalism Bret should have risen above it. Never in the history of wrestling doesn anyone who is moving to a rival company leave on a high, unless they are moving upwards and the promotion is proud of them. Bret believed that he could call the shots, when he really couldn't and he paid the price for that.

There was literally nobody ready to take the title off Bret at that point except for Undertaker, who was about to enter into a career defining feud, but Bret didn't wantto lose in Canada. Sometimes, you don't get to make those choices. If an agency worker walks into a factory and refuses to do the job given too him, should he be surprised when he turns up the next day to see someone else has been given his job? No. Bret has my sympathy because he was ruined by WCW, but he doesn't have my sympathy for the Screwjob. What McMahon did was deplorable, but it's the nature of the business and someone who grew up in the industry should have known that.

 

[DL23]

I know, I know.... It's another Montreal thread. NorCal, Lariat, KB, and X all have due right to rip my head off right now for even thinking about doing a thread which is eventually going to lead to Montreal. But please, pardon me; this isn't about Montreal, at all. Well, it is, but the thread subject isn't Montreal. It's Bret, and his egotistical point of view. And if any of you can get me to have an iota of pity over what happened to Bret Hart that day, you will earn rep from me for a lifetime. At least, whenever I'm here. But it's very simple; why should I feel sorry for Bret Hart? Why should I believe that Bret didn't screw Bret?

Now, let's throw out some simple things; Montreal had nothing to do with Owen's Death, The Hart Family Curse, Bret's stroke, Dynamite Kid's metamorphisis into Gollum from Lord of the Rings, Stu having to sell Stampede Wrestling, or any of those other things. All of the other matters in life which were true tragedies for Bret Hart have nothing to do with Montreal. Maybe you could argue that Bret could've stopped Owen, but you'd be lying to yourself and the whole forum if you tell us you believe he could've stopped Owen. Montreal affected one man negatively, and one man alone; Bret Hart. Shit, it probably wasn't even that negative. If WCW had half a brain on how to book a wrestler, he could've been the biggest name in wrestling right now. Yes, probably better than Hogan. Still, Montreal really only hurt one person, and all of the other tragedies in Bret Hart's life are not a part of this argument. You don't have to have half a brain to make me feel bad for a guy having a stroke. But make me feel bad for a guy that got lied to by his boss? Go ahead, I dare you.

Was it because Bret Hart was fooled? Fuck, Vader warned him not to let Shawn get him in a submission hold, and the guy still wanted to comply with it. Why? Because it would have been a great spot, and the Hitman marked for himself to say that he could have called another fantastic spot in the match. All of the warning signs were there. I feel bad for guys that get tricked, when they had no reason to believe he would be tricked. Bret had every reason to believe he was going to get screwed; he really did. All he needed to do was look at Wendi Richter, fucking tweleve years later, when she was screwed by.... Oh hi, guess who did it?

Spoiler

I'm sure Gelgarin is going to come on here and tell me how Pat O' Conner got screwed in 1965 in the middle of Bumblefuck, but honestly, the only other screwjob I'm aware of is one between Kensuke Sasaki, and the One Man Gang, in 1995. Still, screwjob's weren't exactly an unprecedented matter. Typically, if you were a reigning champion, and were leaving the territory you were working with, you were going to get screwed, unless you were a great shoot fighter. Bret Hart probably is a great shoot fighter, but there's just one little problem;

Bret Hart is also a moron. A mark who would allow his own ego and inflated sense of self satisfaction as a "Canadian Hero" overlook the fact that he is, in no way, above his obligation to do the job, once he's leaving the company. It's a rite of passage, almost as old as the screwjob itself. Shit, it should be considered unprofessional to consider doing anything to job, if the company wants you to.

But no. Bret had his ego, and though he's say it's no bigger than Hogan's, we all know to be untrue. Still, the IWC takes up for him countless times, though if it were someone like John Cena that this happened to, the IWC would have a collective orgasm. The fact is, because Bret puts on great matches, we forgive his massive ego.

And the question is real simple.... Why?

So in theory Bret should of (and could of) fucked the PPV before Survivor Series up which was Badd Blood, and the Main event, aka Hell in a cell, Shawn and Taker? and jobbed to Shawn then? of course Vince would of allowed that, hell no, Bret was screwed which sucks, but like Bret said he had no problems jobbing the belt in the US, but Vince and Shawn wanted it in Canada, and for his persona/character Bret jobbing would of made him look weak, which I concur, Yes wrestling is fake, and yada yada but even after the screw job, Bret SHOULD of walked in WCW with one his replica wwf world belts and proclaimed he never lost, he didn't.

Deep down I think the survivor series screw job was a fitting end to the Hitman character because he never backed down, and to get the belt of him he was politically screwed, it's just a shame, Bret and Vince couldn't let it drop for 12 years.