Why does the WWE bash it's hardcore fans?

TheVolFan52

Occasional Pre-Show
I always wonder to myself why the WWE and superstars mock their passionate fan base. I don't understand it really at all. I'm a huge Tennessee Vols football fan. I love my team and I am so passionate about them that even though college football only comes on tv on Saturdays, I am talking, reading, and obsessing until the next game. I'm sure several of you have that sports team that is such a huge part of your life, and you consider yourself a hardcore fan of that team. The same thing applies to television shows, especially in this day and age. How many of you guys love watching Game of Thrones, breaking bad or walking dead? Just like in wrestling, you are so passionate about it that you don't just watch it. It's the one thing that you get all excited about, buy shirts, talk about with your friends, or buy whatever you can related to it. Basically you are very loyal paying customer. Could you imagine if Vince Gilligan (creator of Breaking Bad) bashed the hardcore fans of breaking bad, and called them names and pretty much said Breaking Bad could have made it without it's hardcore fans? Or what about the star player of a sports team saying the fans who bought a ticket to watch him are stupid and don't know a damn thing about the sport they obsess about. I don't like this idea of "well you're not involved in the business so you don't know what you're talking about" or the whole "just sit back and enjoy what they give you." This is laughable to me. If your teams coach calls a stupid play, then it's a stupid play. If the writers of your favorite show do something stupid, then it is stupid. Why bash PAYING CUSTOMERS who help you sell those tickets, sell those shirts, and watch the shows? We critique everything in life. Movies, shows, sports, and especially wrestling. Why is that in Hollywood, acting criticism is welcomed but in wrestling, you can't criticize because you aren't in the business. Why can't people high up in the WWE handle criticism at all on their product. The Wrestlemania XXX card is exactly what I mean when I say they do whatever they want to with no consideration of the hardcore fans. WWE has always thumbed their nose's up at us and after years of doing that, they are honestly at the biggest crossroads in company history. There are more and more casual fans turning into hardcore marks each and every day and the "IWC" has been growing for years and it's finally getting to where shows are getting hijacked, stories and feuds are getting booed out of the building (bootista vs orton) and we are cheering who we want to collectively (Daniel Bryan) instead of who the tell us we should cheer. (batista) I hope WWE finally comes to their senses and gives the fans want they want, because yeah sure they'll say "you guys will watch no matter what" and that's partly true but there will come a day (and it could be soon) where those hardcore fans are tired of being insulted, tired of being letdown, and tired of not getting what they want as a paying customer. Also to those people who say "just enjoy it", you are absolute sheep and have no opinion, backbone, or passion of their own. We know as fans what we want from wrestling and if it's something we don't, The same applies for wrestling. Most of us have been watching for years, we know what we want to see and we know what we don't want to see. (Orton vs Batista)
 
I always wonder to myself why the WWE and superstars mock their passionate fan base. I don't understand it really at all. I'm a huge Tennessee Vols football fan. I love my team and I am so passionate about them that even though college football only comes on tv on Saturdays, I am talking, reading, and obsessing until the next game. I'm sure several of you have that sports team that is such a huge part of your life, and you consider yourself a hardcore fan of that team. The same thing applies to television shows, especially in this day and age. How many of you guys love watching Game of Thrones, breaking bad or walking dead? Just like in wrestling, you are so passionate about it that you don't just watch it. It's the one thing that you get all excited about, buy shirts, talk about with your friends, or buy whatever you can related to it. Basically you are very loyal paying customer. Could you imagine if Vince Gilligan (creator of Breaking Bad) bashed the hardcore fans of breaking bad, and called them names and pretty much said Breaking Bad could have made it without it's hardcore fans? Or what about the star player of a sports team saying the fans who bought a ticket to watch him are stupid and don't know a damn thing about the sport they obsess about. I don't like this idea of "well you're not involved in the business so you don't know what you're talking about" or the whole "just sit back and enjoy what they give you." This is laughable to me. If your teams coach calls a stupid play, then it's a stupid play. If the writers of your favorite show do something stupid, then it is stupid. Why bash PAYING CUSTOMERS who help you sell those tickets, sell those shirts, and watch the shows? We critique everything in life. Movies, shows, sports, and especially wrestling. Why is that in Hollywood, acting criticism is welcomed but in wrestling, you can't criticize because you aren't in the business. Why can't people high up in the WWE handle criticism at all on their product. The Wrestlemania XXX card is exactly what I mean when I say they do whatever they want to with no consideration of the hardcore fans. WWE has always thumbed their nose's up at us and after years of doing that, they are honestly at the biggest crossroads in company history. There are more and more casual fans turning into hardcore marks each and every day and the "IWC" has been growing for years and it's finally getting to where shows are getting hijacked, stories and feuds are getting booed out of the building (bootista vs orton) and we are cheering who we want to collectively (Daniel Bryan) instead of who the tell us we should cheer. (batista) I hope WWE finally comes to their senses and gives the fans want they want, because yeah sure they'll say "you guys will watch no matter what" and that's partly true but there will come a day (and it could be soon) where those hardcore fans are tired of being insulted, tired of being letdown, and tired of not getting what they want as a paying customer. Also to those people who say "just enjoy it", you are absolute sheep and have no opinion, backbone, or passion of their own. We know as fans what we want from wrestling and if it's something we don't, The same applies for wrestling. Most of us have been watching for years, we know what we want to see and we know what we don't want to see. (Orton vs Batista)

hardcore fans are viewed as idiots. If you go on a wrestling forum you might see one or two good things. DB winning the belt, imo, is a good idea just not at mania. Just look around the forum right now. There are threads about Orton needing to retire, multiple midcarders ending the streak, iron man matches involving DB at mania, hell I've even seen a guy suggest that DB vs Taker be for the streak and the chance to be in the main event at mania with DB going over, Cena heel turns, and a bunch of other nonsense. The WWE is 100% right for not giving the fans what they want the majority of the time. If they did than CM punk WWE title reign would still be going, Roman Reigns would be main eventing Mania, we would have MITB at mania and its own ppv, it would be a mess. Most of the hardcore fans ideas are flat out ******ed and WWE knows this. If you combine all of that with the fact that hardcore fans purposely go against anything the WWE does and chants names like husky Harris at Bray Wyatt who is an amazing talent, than its obvious why they dont respect us. And it sucks for the few hardcore fans that don't just bash the product 24/7 and actually have good ideas but the vast majority does the opposite. I think that the fans are right for wanting db to be champ, I just dont agree with the purposed ways of db vs HHH for a spot in the title match resulting in db taking up an hour of the show. Which is probably the same thing WWE thinks.
 
I always wonder to myself why the WWE and superstars mock their passionate fan base. I don't understand it really at all. I'm a huge Tennessee Vols football fan. I love my team and I am so passionate about them that even though college football only comes on tv on Saturdays, I am talking, reading, and obsessing until the next game. I'm sure several of you have that sports team that is such a huge part of your life, and you consider yourself a hardcore fan of that team. The same thing applies to television shows, especially in this day and age. How many of you guys love watching Game of Thrones, breaking bad or walking dead? Just like in wrestling, you are so passionate about it that you don't just watch it. It's the one thing that you get all excited about, buy shirts, talk about with your friends, or buy whatever you can related to it. Basically you are very loyal paying customer. Could you imagine if Vince Gilligan (creator of Breaking Bad) bashed the hardcore fans of breaking bad, and called them names and pretty much said Breaking Bad could have made it without it's hardcore fans? Or what about the star player of a sports team saying the fans who bought a ticket to watch him are stupid and don't know a damn thing about the sport they obsess about. I don't like this idea of "well you're not involved in the business so you don't know what you're talking about" or the whole "just sit back and enjoy what they give you." This is laughable to me. If your teams coach calls a stupid play, then it's a stupid play. If the writers of your favorite show do something stupid, then it is stupid. Why bash PAYING CUSTOMERS who help you sell those tickets, sell those shirts, and watch the shows? We critique everything in life. Movies, shows, sports, and especially wrestling. Why is that in Hollywood, acting criticism is welcomed but in wrestling, you can't criticize because you aren't in the business. Why can't people high up in the WWE handle criticism at all on their product. The Wrestlemania XXX card is exactly what I mean when I say they do whatever they want to with no consideration of the hardcore fans. WWE has always thumbed their nose's up at us and after years of doing that, they are honestly at the biggest crossroads in company history. There are more and more casual fans turning into hardcore marks each and every day and the "IWC" has been growing for years and it's finally getting to where shows are getting hijacked, stories and feuds are getting booed out of the building (bootista vs orton) and we are cheering who we want to collectively (Daniel Bryan) instead of who the tell us we should cheer. (batista) I hope WWE finally comes to their senses and gives the fans want they want, because yeah sure they'll say "you guys will watch no matter what" and that's partly true but there will come a day (and it could be soon) where those hardcore fans are tired of being insulted, tired of being letdown, and tired of not getting what they want as a paying customer. Also to those people who say "just enjoy it", you are absolute sheep and have no opinion, backbone, or passion of their own. We know as fans what we want from wrestling and if it's something we don't, The same applies for wrestling. Most of us have been watching for years, we know what we want to see and we know what we don't want to see. (Orton vs Batista)

So basically, your entire thread ultimately comes off another "Daniel Bryan should be in the main event at WrestleMania" thread and you're upset because, as of right now, that isn't the case. As a result, you've taken this particular instance and have broadened it to such a degree that you're now applying it to the entire WWE and its product over the years by declaring that they "thumb their noses" at fans.

In the case of Daniel Bryan, I agree that Bryan should be in the title match. Not only is it something that a vast majority of fans seem to want, but it's also the only means of keeping fans from hijacking the match. I find it difficult to believe that WWE officials aren't aware of this, thus I still have hope that Bryan will somehow be added to the match. If he isn't, then management has nobody to blame but themselves when the title match bombs.

As far as WWE "thumbing their noses" at their fans, the problem with that stance is that if people genuinely don't like what they're seeing, why don't they tune out? Why are Raw & SD! still two of the top, most consistent draws on cable TV? If people aren't happy with it, stop watching it. It's not that difficult to do as there are plenty of options. I used to watch Survivor all the time, but I've long since grown tired of it and haven't watched it for the last 3 seasons. Since people aren't tuning out in droves of millions from WWE programming, it's logical to conclude that there's enough going on that they do like and/or is keeping them entertained enough to keep watching. No entertainment medium can give EVERY fan EVERYTHING that they want because you can't please everybody. That's especially true when it comes to pro wrestling. For instance, how many threads will pop up this year asking why WWE doesn't give this guy a push or why WWE should or shouldn't give that wrestler a title run? Sometimes there are genuinely good answers to them and sometimes there aren't, but not everybody can be pushed, not everybody can be a main eventer. As far as, to paraphrase, "enjoying what they give you", that's how it is with any show. You think Vince Gilligan was sitting around trying to write out episodes for Breaking Bad by analyzing what thousands of people with differing opinions were writing on internet message boards? He'd drive himself crazy while satisfying some fans and pissing off others because he didn't do what they felt he should do. He came up with the best ideas that he thought would work best. Sometimes he got it right in that it pleased enough people and sometimes he didn't.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't voice criticism in something you dislike when you see it or disagree with it, I agree with voicing that in any aspect of life as a whole. However, your comment about not knowing what we're talking about because we're not in the business is true in some instances. This holds true for WWE or any other wrestling company; as fans, we sometimes forget that we're not experts in the pro wrestling business. Pro wrestling companies are businesses trying to make money and the decisions of management are made in the hopes of generating as much money as they can. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong. That's life in ANY business, so it doesn't mean that the corporate officers of WWE are a group of sadistic jack offs who get their jollies by "holding guys back" or pissing off fans. For instance, there are some die hard Hulk Hogan fans that would like for WWE to book Hogan winning the WWE World Heavyweight Championship at WrestleMania XXX. There was even a thread created on that within the past few months. Those fans don't particularly care whether or not if makes any degree of financial sense, they just wanna see it because it'll give them a rush. Fantasy booking is all well and good, but no wrestling company can base itself on it or the often momentary whims of internet fans, which can & often do change like the weather. Any wrestling company's product would be a schizophrenic hodgepodge of nonsense. Just because we read reports on the internet, some of which are true, some of which are completely false and some of which fall somewhere in the middle, and form opinions based on that information doesn't automatically mean our opinion is either right or correct. For everything that we do find out or for every rumor that makes its way to our ears, it's possible that there are ten other things that go on behind the scenes in regards to decision making that we know absolutely nothing about and never hear about it.
 
If you extrapolate the numbers, I would wager a guess that probably less than 10% of wrestling "fans" read dirt sheet websites. I'd wager that 10% of THAT number cares to come and comment on the forums. So, we're at less than 1% of all "fans" are the ones that you would call "hardcore".

If you take that even further, that means that over 99% of fans aren't here on Wrestlezone forums discussing the mist ridiculous of topics like Bryan going over Taker, Cena hell turns, etc. So why would WWE cater to such a small percentage of their fans?

Just because you know terms like smark and go over and you're in the "IWC" doesn't give your opinion more relevance or more power in terms of WWE booking. They are going to push to the highest possible dissemination of their product.
 
If you extrapolate the numbers, I would wager a guess that probably less than 10% of wrestling "fans" read dirt sheet websites. I'd wager that 10% of THAT number cares to come and comment on the forums. So, we're at less than 1% of all "fans" are the ones that you would call "hardcore".

If you take that even further, that means that over 99% of fans aren't here on Wrestlezone forums discussing the mist ridiculous of topics like Bryan going over Taker, Cena hell turns, etc. So why would WWE cater to such a small percentage of their fans?

Just because you know terms like smark and go over and you're in the "IWC" doesn't give your opinion more relevance or more power in terms of WWE booking. They are going to push to the highest possible dissemination of their product.
Wreslting fans in 2014 aren't dumbasses. And if it's only 10% of wrestling fans that are "hardcore" then that same 10% must have been going to every show since the rumble. See the reactions to batista and daniel bryan. You hear the CM Punk chants every week. I would say 10% of the wrestling fans in 2006 were "hardcore." The internet is apart of everyone's life in 2014 and it's everywhere on the go with smart phones. Almost every single person who watches wwe is literally a few clicks away from becoming a smart fan. If you act like the smart fans haven't grown lately, then you're crazy. I'm not even saying push the whole product towards the hardcore fans, I was simply saying it's ridiculous that they bash fans for wanting something different than what they give us.
 
WWE Management seems to be at a cross-roads with their FANS, not the PRODUCT. For anybody who has watched wrestling over the past couple decades (and longer) knows that the WWE is ultimately going to do what they think is best for business (seriously no pun intended) and so far, they have. If you watch the WWE product today compared to 5-6 years ago, you would be shocked at how much better and entertaining WWE has gotten. People are actually talking about the WWE now, and I think, as much as the fans are upset about DB or whatever, they agree that they are interested in what is happening nowadays.

The difference is the modern day fans vs the old school fans. Up until a couple years ago, the majority of fans understood that one guy is the heel, one guy is the face, you cheer the face and boo the heel no matter how much you may like or hate the work of a certain wrestler.

Nowadays fans don't care about heels and faces anymore, if a heel does his job well, the fans cheer him. If a face shits the bed, he gets booed. The difference is the fans are now starting to choose their own wrestlers to back no matter where they are on the card or who they're feuding with other than acting like everything Vince gives them is gold.
 
So basically, your entire thread ultimately comes off another "Daniel Bryan should be in the main event at WrestleMania" thread and you're upset because, as of right now, that isn't the case. As a result, you've taken this particular instance and have broadened it to such a degree that you're now applying it to the entire WWE and its product over the years by declaring that they "thumb their noses" at fans.

In the case of Daniel Bryan, I agree that Bryan should be in the title match. Not only is it something that a vast majority of fans seem to want, but it's also the only means of keeping fans from hijacking the match. I find it difficult to believe that WWE officials aren't aware of this, thus I still have hope that Bryan will somehow be added to the match. If he isn't, then management has nobody to blame but themselves when the title match bombs.
To a degree yes this comes from the Daniel Bryan thing. Of course we all want him in the title match and i'm not even saying cater the entire product to hardcore fans. Everyone is going to fantasy book match ups to their own liking, this is obvious. But when an entire arena in every city is cheering for one guy and booing another and yet they ignore that, how can that not be deemed as "thumbing their noses" or turning away from the fans. How many times throughout your viewing experience on Raw did you say "Good God this sucks?" I'm not saying book to our liking but when something bad happens on WWE television and we criticize it, we always hear criticism back from the wrestler or someone high up. "You're not in the business, you don't know what you want" is utterly ridiculous. When you started watching Breaking Bad from the beginning, you already starting making predictions as to where it's going to go and despite not being in the writers room you knew the things you wanted to see from the story going forward and the things you eventually wanted to see, played out. I know you wanted to see what Skylar's reaction would be when she found out, and you wanted to see what Hank would do to. Gilligan knew in the beginning that the fans would get the answers they want and that the show would give you want you wanted as a viewer of that show throughout the series.
 
Wreslting fans in 2014 aren't dumbasses. And if it's only 10% of wrestling fans that are "hardcore" then that same 10% must have been going to every show since the rumble. See the reactions to batista and daniel bryan. You hear the CM Punk chants every week. I would say 10% of the wrestling fans in 2006 were "hardcore." The internet is apart of everyone's life in 2014 and it's everywhere on the go with smart phones. Almost every single person who watches wwe is literally a few clicks away from becoming a smart fan. If you act like the smart fans haven't grown lately, then you're crazy. I'm not even saying push the whole product towards the hardcore fans, I was simply saying it's ridiculous that they bash fans for wanting something different than what they give us.

I was trying to be nice to you, but you're being obtuse. Your premise is completely irrational and is based in complete nonsense. The WWE IS giving the majority of fans what they want. A handful of smarks in Green Bay or whatever doesn't change anything. A group of stupid asshole entitlement fans at Royal Rumble aren't important. Is it probably best for business to make Daniel Bryan the champ? Sure. But was it best for business to make Punk the champ? Nope. Was it best for business for Daniel Bryan headlining several PPVs? Nope.

The WWE is a corporation. Their ultimate goal is squeezing the last dollar out of something. Some kid with ideas on some dirt sheet web forum is not relevant to that unless his POV is the same as the majority of fans.

The majority of fans want a superhero Cena, they want a supervillian Orton. They don't care about Daniel Bryan being a great indy wrestler. And right now, those fans are all caught up in the "DB is getting screwed angle and the Yes! chants. Once those die down, probably over this summer, he'll be another Ziggler, Miz, R-Truth, etc. Which, honestly, is where is belongs.

If you don't understand the product, why even comment about it?
 
They don't bash the fans, first off so your whole point is useless. Not doing what you want, is not bashing fans. Considering how much the IWC makes fun of just about everything your room to talk is also very small. The same things you referenced don't have fans constantly berating them for every decision. And you thinking that more then 10% are hardcore is laughable. you neglected the fact that half are kids under 8, which like it or not aren't hardcore. Then there is the ever present 40+ bracket who as anyone with a few brain cells know, aren't that internet savvy. So at best you are now looking at a possible lets say 25% of the total viewers who could possibly be "hardcore". And there is nothing to suggest that that many people view these sites. You can check the members of any wrestling sites and it certainly isn't anywhere close to 1 million, or even a fourth of that. Finally the entirety of these hardcore fans would have to want exactly what you want, Daniel Bryan in the Main Event. And I've seen more then enough on this site alone to suggest even the hardcore fans aren't hellbent on this one thing.

I won't go down the list on your other items but I will comment on the Cm punk chants and those against Batista. Obviously we all hear them, but that doesn't mean anywhere near 15,000+ are chanting those. in fact at a recent event I went to the CM punk chants could be heard on television, but I know for a fact when it happened it was literally a group of 10-20 people sitting near me. Over the TV because they were the only ones chanting it comes across as loud. So short of chants drowning out cheers/boos it's particularly easy to interpret more feel the way you think then actually do.
 
Becuase the smarks destroys the product. They hate just for the sake of it.

They will complain on anything - it dosent matter what happens - they will complain and bitching about it.

When they favourite star became to mainstream they will say "He sold out"

Hardcore smarks love the underdogs. It's sick phenomena.
 
Who bashes the fans? Did Vince, HHH, Stephanie say something mean out of character? If so, I missed it. Are you referring to their booking decisions? If so, tell me one form of entertainment where passionate fans guide the decisions of the writers (Besides radio request lines)? How do you think a head football coach feels about the fans when they are critical of his decisions?

I don't get where this entitlement is coming from. It is one thing to not like everything WWE does. To me the last 2 out of 3 Raws have been pretty poor. But it's another thing to takes the good and bad decisions they make and take as a personal insult. No one is bashing you, they may not be giving you and others what you want, they may be doing things that aren't even best for their bottom line but you are really pushing logic to claim that they are bashing anyone.
 
The WWE IS giving the majority of fans what they want. A handful of smarks in Green Bay or whatever doesn't change anything.
A group of stupid asshole entitlement fans at Royal Rumble aren't important.

The majority of the WWE fans turned off the TV over the past 10-15 years. Don't believe me? Go look at the numbers. Raw ratings were in the 6s in the early 2000s. They struggle to reach the 3's today. To suggest that the majority of the fans are getting what they want is ludicrous since the majority of the fans have already spoken by changing the channel.

Is it probably best for business to make Daniel Bryan the champ? Sure. But was it best for business to make Punk the champ? Nope. Was it best for business for Daniel Bryan headlining several PPVs? Nope.

Was it best for business to make Austin the champion in 1998? Absolutely. Would it have been best for business if Austin and McMahon became friends right after he won the title at WrestleMania 14? Absolutely not.

The point there is that it's one thing to give the fans the payoff, but unless they follow it up with smart booking decisions, then the interest will fall fast. That's part of what happened to Punk. The guy got over by opening the curtain and saying what most "internet nerds" think - that the McMahons are stubborn, they're stuck in their ways and that no guy w/o a bodybuilder physique has a fair shake in the company. Further, he got over by calling Triple H an idiot.

So if he got over by bashing the McMahons - and Triple H - then how come he was teaming up with Hunter two months later? Seriously, WTF kind of booking was that? You're so fast to blame the fans for "changing their mind," but you never want to acknowledge the actual booking decisions that failed to keep our attention.

If Punk got over by saying he was never given a fair shake, then why was that never built upon after he won the title? It's kind of hard for a guy to scream that he's been held back when he not only has the title, but when the authority figures don't seem to mind that he has the title.

Punk managed to maintain most of his popularity throughout his run, but you're right to say that it was never quite the same after MITB 2011 - a big reason for that is because the WWE seemingly didn't want it to be.



The WWE is a corporation. Their ultimate goal is squeezing the last dollar out of something. Some kid with ideas on some dirt sheet web forum is not relevant to that unless his POV is the same as the majority of fans.

Once again, the majority of the WWEs fans are gone. Whether their reasons for leaving are similar to the bitching of people in the dirt sheets or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that whatever it is the WWE is doing, it's costing them a majority of their audience.

The majority of fans want a superhero Cena, they want a supervillian Orton. They don't care about Daniel Bryan being a great indy wrestler. And right now, those fans are all caught up in the "DB is getting screwed angle and the Yes! chants. Once those die down, probably over this summer, he'll be another Ziggler, Miz, R-Truth, etc. Which, honestly, is where is belongs.

The majority of fans don't want Cena or Orton. It's quite the opposite. The mass exodus of the audience coincides with the rise of Cena and Orton as main event guys. Do you think that's a coincidence?

You're right about DB, though. The vast majority of fans do not care that he was an indy wrestler. Now we don't need to get into a discussion on whether or not this entire 'angle' was scripted from the beginning or if the WWE just smartened up to the fans after the Royal Rumble debacle - but the fact is that the fans are responding because they relate to Bryan's plight. We've all felt like we were overlooked in situations despite being the better man, and Bryan's situation is no different...

I have no doubt that the WWE will eventually pull the trigger and give Bryan the title. How they handle it after that will be a big determining factor in whether or not Bryan becomes the next big thing or if he becomes Dolph Ziggler. My guess is that he'll become Ziggler - not because of talent or anything within in his control, but because I'm betting that one week after he wins the title, Triple H will admit that he was wrong. Triple H will apologize and promise not to interfere with DB anymore ... and with the boss no longer trying to screw him, we'll lose every aspect of this story/character that we can relate to.
 
Who bashes the fans? Did Vince, HHH, Stephanie say something mean out of character? If so, I missed it. Are you referring to their booking decisions? If so, tell me one form of entertainment where passionate fans guide the decisions of the writers (Besides radio request lines)? How do you think a head football coach feels about the fans when they are critical of his decisions?

EVERY form of entertainment does this. What do you think focus groups are for? Every new TV show has test audiences. So do most movies. Additionally, TV shows look at ratings trends during certain stories to see how the audience is responding.

Your football head coach comparison is out of place. Wrestling is not football. It's not even a sport. It's a TV show. A football coach either wins or loses. His job is dependent on winning. The fans have nothing to do with his winning or losing. A TV show is either watched or it isn't watched. It's ability to stay on the air is dependent on it being watched. The fans have everything to do with it being watched.
 
The majority of the WWE fans turned off the TV over the past 10-15 years. Don't believe me? Go look at the numbers. Raw ratings were in the 6s in the early 2000s. They struggle to reach the 3's today. To suggest that the majority of the fans are getting what they want is ludicrous since the majority of the fans have already spoken by changing the channel.



Was it best for business to make Austin the champion in 1998? Absolutely. Would it have been best for business if Austin and McMahon became friends right after he won the title at WrestleMania 14? Absolutely not.

The point there is that it's one thing to give the fans the payoff, but unless they follow it up with smart booking decisions, then the interest will fall fast. That's part of what happened to Punk. The guy got over by opening the curtain and saying what most "internet nerds" think - that the McMahons are stubborn, they're stuck in their ways and that no guy w/o a bodybuilder physique has a fair shake in the company. Further, he got over by calling Triple H an idiot.

So if he got over by bashing the McMahons - and Triple H - then how come he was teaming up with Hunter two months later? Seriously, WTF kind of booking was that? You're so fast to blame the fans for "changing their mind," but you never want to acknowledge the actual booking decisions that failed to keep our attention.

If Punk got over by saying he was never given a fair shake, then why was that never built upon after he won the title? It's kind of hard for a guy to scream that he's been held back when he not only has the title, but when the authority figures don't seem to mind that he has the title.

Punk managed to maintain most of his popularity throughout his run, but you're right to say that it was never quite the same after MITB 2011 - a big reason for that is because the WWE seemingly didn't want it to be.





Once again, the majority of the WWEs fans are gone. Whether their reasons for leaving are similar to the bitching of people in the dirt sheets or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that whatever it is the WWE is doing, it's costing them a majority of their audience.



The majority of fans don't want Cena or Orton. It's quite the opposite. The mass exodus of the audience coincides with the rise of Cena and Orton as main event guys. Do you think that's a coincidence?

You're right about DB, though. The vast majority of fans do not care that he was an indy wrestler. Now we don't need to get into a discussion on whether or not this entire 'angle' was scripted from the beginning or if the WWE just smartened up to the fans after the Royal Rumble debacle - but the fact is that the fans are responding because they relate to Bryan's plight. We've all felt like we were overlooked in situations despite being the better man, and Bryan's situation is no different...

I have no doubt that the WWE will eventually pull the trigger and give Bryan the title. How they handle it after that will be a big determining factor in whether or not Bryan becomes the next big thing or if he becomes Dolph Ziggler. My guess is that he'll become Ziggler - not because of talent or anything within in his control, but because I'm betting that one week after he wins the title, Triple H will admit that he was wrong. Triple H will apologize and promise not to interfere with DB anymore ... and with the boss no longer trying to screw him, we'll lose every aspect of this story/character that we can relate to.

Just another smark. While ratings may be down, that has more to do with the way that ratings are gathered, what counts, etc. and the fact that torrents and YouTube exist. Don't believe me? Try reading for once.

In general, television ratings are way down. That has to do with Netflix, Hulu+, Amazon Prime, etc. It's not that less people are watching the shows, it's that less people are watching using old fashioned technology.

Using TV ratings or buyrates for your argument that the WWE doesn't listen to fans is stupid.
 
Just another smark. While ratings may be down, that has more to do with the way that ratings are gathered, what counts, etc. and the fact that torrents and YouTube exist. Don't believe me? Try reading for once.

In general, television ratings are way down. That has to do with Netflix, Hulu+, Amazon Prime, etc. It's not that less people are watching the shows, it's that less people are watching using old fashioned technology.

Using TV ratings or buyrates for your argument that the WWE doesn't listen to fans is stupid.

You're right. Using actual metrics to show the fans approval or disapproval of the product is incredibly stupid of me. What was I thinking? I guess I should just listen to the reactions of the people actually attending the shows. Oh wait, that's off limits, too. Never mind, then. I'll just defer to you. You can tell us all what the fans want.

Furthermore, the term "smark" is the most idiotic term ever created. A mark is the victim of a con. To be smart about it would suggest that I'm a willing victim of a con. Applied to wrestling terms, it means that I know that wrestling is fake, but that I'm willing to play along and give them my money anyway. Basically, you're saying that I enjoy wrestling even though I know it's fake. And you think that's an insult, why?
 
You're right. Using actual metrics to show the fans approval or disapproval of the product is incredibly stupid of me. What was I thinking? I guess I should just listen to the reactions of the people actually attending the shows. Oh wait, that's off limits, too. Never mind, then. I'll just defer to you. You can tell us all what the fans want.

Furthermore, the term "smark" is the most idiotic term ever created. A mark is the victim of a con. To be smart about it would suggest that I'm a willing victim of a con. Applied to wrestling terms, it means that I know that wrestling is fake, but that I'm willing to play along and give them my money anyway. Basically, you're saying that I enjoy wrestling even though I know it's fake. And you think that's an insult, why?

No, yet again, you're INCORRECTLY using metrics.

And smark is a SARCASTIC statement about how someone thinks they're smarter than the marks, but really, they're the biggest marks of all.
 
Becuase the smarks destroys the product. They hate just for the sake of it.

They will complain on anything - it dosent matter what happens - they will complain and bitching about it.

When they favourite star became to mainstream they will say "He sold out"

Hardcore smarks love the underdogs. It's sick phenomena.

And that is why the IWC are in love with the likes of Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, and think it's somehow "cool" to hate John Cena.

But seriously, CM Punk is an overrated crybaby. and Daniel Bryan is a 5'8" midget who does all of a certain deceased Canadian's moves.
 
And that is why the IWC are in love with the likes of Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, and think it's somehow "cool" to hate John Cena.

But seriously, CM Punk is an overrated crybaby. and Daniel Bryan is a 5'8" midget who does all of a certain deceased Canadian's moves.

In 1995, it became cool to hate Hulk Hogan for playing the same character for 12-straight years. And oh my God, by listening to their fans, WCW nearly took the WWF out of business. Crazy how that worked!

In 1997, it became cool to cheer for Steve Austin, even though he was a heel. And oh my God, by listening to their fans, the WWE wound up taking WCW out of business.

It's strange how the biggest boom periods in wrestling history tend to get kick-started when the company stops doing what they've been doing and listen to the fans...
 
WWE Management seems to be at a cross-roads with their FANS, not the PRODUCT. For anybody who has watched wrestling over the past couple decades (and longer) knows that the WWE is ultimately going to do what they think is best for business (seriously no pun intended) and so far, they have. If you watch the WWE product today compared to 5-6 years ago, you would be shocked at how much better and entertaining WWE has gotten. People are actually talking about the WWE now, and I think, as much as the fans are upset about DB or whatever, they agree that they are interested in what is happening nowadays.

The difference is the modern day fans vs the old school fans. Up until a couple years ago, the majority of fans understood that one guy is the heel, one guy is the face, you cheer the face and boo the heel no matter how much you may like or hate the work of a certain wrestler.

Nowadays fans don't care about heels and faces anymore, if a heel does his job well, the fans cheer him. If a face shits the bed, he gets booed. The difference is the fans are now starting to choose their own wrestlers to back no matter where they are on the card or who they're feuding with other than acting like everything Vince gives them is gold.

This comes down to what they are aiming for. I have no doubts in my mind at all of what the endgame is for WWE/Vince at least. He wants to start to build momentum, take the company private again and then sell out to Disney wholesale with him getting the Kevin Feige role ala Marvel. He's seen the Muppets, Star Wars and Marvel make billions upon billions at Disney and wants some of that buyout action himself so he can be a legit Billionaire again. This is why they aren't interested in WRESTLING and WRESTLING FANS... because Disney won't be. They want IP, characters they can manipulate and exploit in a multitude of ways... Remember those god awful games where Cena would be racing or similar... it's that but worse.

The biggest obstacle to this is that people on the whole still WANT it to be and SEE WWE as a wrestling company first.

Take the Daniel Bryan situation - for wrestling fans and a wrestling company, he is an absolute boon. Technically proficient, popular and has a legit/non roided appearance. For Vinny Disney however it's awful, they make him grow the beard as it's the only real thing they can market on him along with the most basic Yes/No which they can't patent, trademark or do much with. Someone like CM Punk is worse for them cos he knows what they're up to and isn't playing ball... His walking out has upset the wrestling fans and at the moment Vince still needs them but he wants rid of them... and the best way to do that and replace them is to bring back like Hogan/Sting to engage casual fans into their 6 month commitment on the Network and use every chance to cross promotion with the Disney guys - Whatever the merits of Batista in the ring, he's gonna be in Disney/Marvel's biggest movie of the summer - so Vince want's to get in good with Disney? Dave gets the red-red-red carpet treatment to make that happen. When Dwayne first became the "host" he was part of a contract with...yup Disney...

Guys like Cena are great for Walt McMahon cos he can make it look like he is still "down with wrestling", he is a merchandising machine first however and ironically the prototype of what Vince wants and what someone like Disney would want. The Muppets coming back to RAW? A Scooby Doo movie? You can see where this is going...

Who has Steph been shipping her stock to? Is it Shane who is more wrestling based? or could it be going towards starting this process of Disneyfication?

Tell me I'm crazy but you'll change your tune once that Star Wars and Avengers money starts rolling. Disney will be agressively pursing as many brands as possible, starting with the remaining Marvel IP's from Fox and Sony...probably a cheeky grab for Bond while they are at it... and "Wrestling" the WWE way...not the Attitude/wrestling way we and many want... but the Cena/Kid Friendly version... That is what this is really about and the only way this can happen... to get rid of those pesky hardcore wrestling fans.
 
hardcore fans are viewed as idiots. If you go on a wrestling forum you might see one or two good things. DB winning the belt, imo, is a good idea just not at mania. Just look around the forum right now. There are threads about Orton needing to retire, multiple midcarders ending the streak, iron man matches involving DB at mania, hell I've even seen a guy suggest that DB vs Taker be for the streak and the chance to be in the main event at mania with DB going over, Cena heel turns, and a bunch of other nonsense. The WWE is 100% right for not giving the fans what they want the majority of the time. If they did than CM punk WWE title reign would still be going, Roman Reigns would be main eventing Mania, we would have MITB at mania and its own ppv, it would be a mess. Most of the hardcore fans ideas are flat out ******ed and WWE knows this. If you combine all of that with the fact that hardcore fans purposely go against anything the WWE does and chants names like husky Harris at Bray Wyatt who is an amazing talent, than its obvious why they dont respect us. And it sucks for the few hardcore fans that don't just bash the product 24/7 and actually have good ideas but the vast majority does the opposite. I think that the fans are right for wanting db to be champ, I just dont agree with the purposed ways of db vs HHH for a spot in the title match resulting in db taking up an hour of the show. Which is probably the same thing WWE thinks.

You are 100000% right. Most of the time, "hardcore fans" don't really know what they want. They think they do but they don't. Once Bryan actually wins the belt, they'll all sell him down the river for the next guy.
 
I don't think they bash the passionate hardcore fans as much as they bash the smarks who hate on everything. You know, the backseat bookers who think they could do a better job even though they have no prior wrestling experience.

The ones who hate on everything WWE does yet still watch regularly. The ones that run to message boards during RAW because they want their bitching n moaning to garner 15 pages from others who think they're smarter then everyone else.


And to be honest.. .maybe they deserve a taste of their own medicine?
 
EVERY form of entertainment does this. What do you think focus groups are for? Every new TV show has test audiences. So do most movies. Additionally, TV shows look at ratings trends during certain stories to see how the audience is responding.

Big difference between focus groups and passionate fans driving creative decisions. More importantly, I still don't understand what any of that has to do with WWE bashing it's audience.

Your football head coach comparison is out of place. Wrestling is not football. It's not even a sport. It's a TV show. A football coach either wins or loses. His job is dependent on winning. The fans have nothing to do with his winning or losing. A TV show is either watched or it isn't watched. It's ability to stay on the air is dependent on it being watched. The fans have everything to do with it being watched.

The football coach isn't my comparison. Go back and look at the OP. He brought up college football. I agree with you that it is a shit comparison except for the fact that when a coach makes a mistake and hears it from the fans, I can't remember a coach in history who admits that the decision was a misrake and goes out the next game and calls plays based on the fan's advice.

In the end though if WWE doesn't cater to their hardcore fans I can understand. Hardcore fans show up at the gate regardless and tune in on Monday regardless. It's not the hardcore fans they have to please. It is the on the fence and next generation (plus their moms) of fans that they have to please. They're the ones the most likely to tune out the following week or never tune in at all.
 
So it’s interesting to note a few contradictory arguments as I read through this. These are statements that I see over and over in these sorts of threads. Let’s start with the fact that the ratings have dropped from 6’s(and higher) to being luck to get 3’s. Supposedly this fact is no longer relevant because a large number of wrestling fans either torrent, live stream, YouTube or read results on sites like this. Theoretically the viewership hasn’t dropped, rather it has become split. Then there is the statement (which is commonly seen) that the IWC is only 10% or a small minority of wrestling fans. Wouldn’t watching wrestling every week either through YouTube, torrents, streaming sites and catching up through summary articles make one a part of the IWC? But this presents a contradiction. Either the ratings were cut in half because the viewers are going online thus meaning that at least half the fans are IWC members or the IWC is in fact a small minority, but the total fan base/viewership has plummeted. So which is it?

Another small thing, which I see as interesting, is the fact the I’ve seen it stated over and over again that people boo/bash Cena because they go online and see that it’s cool to hate him. Well if half the arena is booing him, does that mean they got it from these very sites that only a minority visit? Let’s take the argument that people who don’t care are seeing other people boo him and thus join in to be a part of the crowd. But wait, these people with no vested interest are seeing an equal number of people cheer him, what would be their motive to jump on the booing bandwagon? So we are back to a 50/50 split of cheers and boos. Then you have to consider that there is a certain small percentage of audience members that aren’t really fans of the show. It’s safe to say that most of these are there because they are taking their kids. Kids cheer Cena which means the same group of people that aren’t really fans will go along with their kids. So then, it would stand to reason that a portion of his cheers are from people who aren’t even fans. This means with a 50/50 crowd split, the majority of fans are booing him.

I understand the need to feature Cena because he makes money through selling merchandise. But consider this; most wrestlers have a t-shirt on the merch stand whereas Cena has and entire ensemble. A kid won’t simply want a t-shirt; he will want the matching hat, and matching sweatbands(and in each color available). Would this mean that if other wrestlers had entire ensemble, they would be selling just as well? I don’t know, just something to ponder. You could say that kids will still buy Cena because he is their favorite. Ok, but anytime I’ve asked someone, especially kids, why Cena, they say because he’s the best wrestler. I ask what makes him the best, and they say it’s because he always wins. Well shit, then theoretically anyone can be a top draw and merch seller simply by being booked to win and having more items of merchandise on the stands. Just an observation.

WWE is constantly trying so hard to get fans online with either Twitter, WWE.com, WWE App, Facebook, Tout(that shit still happening?), etc. Wouldn’t it be logical to assume that some of these fans connecting online might be trickling into the other wrestling site such as these?

OK, now let’s say that the IWC is a minority, hardcore fans opinions don’t matter because they are a stupid minority, and ratings don’t count. This still leaves us with an arena full of people demanding Daniel Bryan. Going by the logic that most of the crowd are non IWC fans and just casual viewers, that would mean they have no idea that he is an indy darling. Regardless of audience break down, they are all relatively unanimous in their demand for Bryan. This wasn’t the case a couple years ago, which means Bryan got over in the WWE. This has been going on since the summer at least. You can’t tell me that the fans are getting behind these Cena vs Orton matches. You sure as hell can’t tell me that the fans are accepting Batista as a face. And there is absolutely no way you can tell me that if the fans won’t be pissed as hell if Orton vs Batista goes on last at Mania. Ending the biggest wrestling event in the history of wrestling thus far with a very large crowd full of passionate fans (based on the distances and amounts of money they spend) all in a pissed off uproar can’t be best for business. It seems that the WWE is seeing what’s happening but just not applying the information, in MOST cases. They did see the reaction to Shield vs Wyatts and apply that to the Chicago crowd. Kudos on that. It is very clear however, that the crowd at every arena is demanding one thing and getting another.

Now let’s take some of the most popular TV Shows out there right now that were mentioned earlier: Breaking Bad, The Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones. The writers and directors for these shows are mainly concerned in the content of the show being as interesting as possible, keeping fans interested thus maintaining high ratings. Ratings are still good for business. These shows are wildly successful. Raw, Smackdown, PPVs, etc are all just TV shows. WWE makes TV shows. The problem is instead of worrying about keeping the content as interesting, they are worried about being as PC as possible to maintain certain sponsorships, while shelling out a decent enough product to keep a moderate amount of interest. This is like creating a TV Show and being more worried about the commercials than the show itself. We have a show about meth and meth dealers, a show about killing and violence, and another show about killing and violence that includes incest. Huge fan bases, huge successes. Now don’t be ignorant and try to tell me that I’m suggesting WWE start including sex, drugs and intense violence in their shows. I’m just saying that interesting content should come before sponsorship.

There is a reason the Attitude Era had so much viewership. It was so damn interesting. It got all kinds of media attention. Hell, it blew all other wrestling promotions out of the water. Why is this? Because there were stories, plot twists and characters. All of these are essential to a TV show. Mid carders all had some kind of character and storyline. People like to protest the Attitude Era and argue it was all smut, blood, necrophilia and old ladies birthing hands. Hot lesbian action, sex celebration, and basically every bra and panties match happened after the Attitude Era was over. The majority of Divas going to playboy was after the Attitude era. Yes, sure there were girls who were sometimes seen in thongs and what not. But honestly, why the hell would that be a problem. You can’t sit on a wrestling forum and shit on the AE for having women in thongs when in the very next tab you have Xvideos open. Then the whole blood thing. For one, it’s not something that happened every night. Blood, or “color” as referred to it in the industry, was used in certain spots to really emphasize what was happening. It made certain feuds more serious and believable. Blading was heavy back in the 70s and 80s but people don’t like to shit on that. It seems like people on sites like this just like to sound cool and sophisticated by deeming this era trash. The Katey Vick angle(which was never Triple H supposedly molesting a corpse but rather mocking Kane by using a mask and a mannequin to get him even more pissed off) didn’t even take place in the AE. Mae Young birthing a hand was a 5 minute segment that was meant to be light hearted humor, and IMO is funnier than a leprechaun tripping someone. It’s also not an accurate representation of the whole era. The AE was mostly notable for producing what is widely considered the best feud of all time in Austin vs McMahon, bringing talented smaller guys into the main event(Hart and HBK are popular examples), creating the best stable WWE has ever produced(DX), having characters and storylines through out the card, including actual segments backstage. It’s not like today where you just have a GM standing near a bunch of WWE advertisements when suddenly a wrestler approaches them, getting booked in a match. Back then, there was a whole storyline going on backstage for each episode in addition to what was happening in the ring. These segments actually enhanced talent, kept interest, and developed storylines. There was this whole backstage environment that just brought a whole new element of entertainment. Crowds were hot, ratings were high, they were getting recognized by outside media. These sorts of things need to happen again and I think they are doing pretty much this with The Shield and The Wyatts, which is what actually works with the crowd. Go figure.

To say everything is fine is false. Every big PPV, mainly Summer Slam and Wrestlemania, requires part timers to come in and carry the show. Whether it be Taker, HHH, Rock, Jericho, Lesnar or whoever, the big events are never stand alone shows. One of the main events is always from a past era. This wasn’t the case in past eras. This is a clear sign business isn’t great. Not to mention the amount of money they have to shell out for this. I remember they gave $25 million to Mayweather for his WM stint, which is Cena’s total net worth. When coworkers tell me no one watches wrestling and they are surprised to here WWE is still around, I tell them about how they constantly have celebrities involved, and guest hosts, celebrity tweets, how they are getting fans involved with social media and Raw Active, how they are promoting Be A Star and Make a Wish, and that they partner with Susan G. Komen, and the fact that they are even producing movies. The response I got is that it sounds like WWE is really desperately grasping at straws. Make you think. When it was at it’s absolute best it did it with it’s own active roster, little celebrity involvement, no movie studio, no social media networking, and no partnerships with charities. It just listened to it’s fans. Is that not what’s best for business? Couldn’t they still listen to fans and keep all their other side projects going still?

Very last rant…Why is it that any time someone comes onto a wrestling site and criticizes the current product; they are attacked by the other members? Is that not what a forum is for? Also, why do people suggest we stop watching if we are unhappy with the product? What does that solve. Our complaint is that we want a good wrestling show in our lives. To stop watching solves none of that. One does not simply watch wrestling all their life and quit. That’s all. Sorry it’s so long winded and kind of jumps around.
 
I think one thing that people need to understand is that just because people are chanting "YES" in every arena, that DOES NOT mean that what they want is Daniel Bryan to win the belt. For the most part, people go to live events to have fun. Doing the "what" chant or "You suck" or "YES" is fun. That's what makes WWE great. The participation by the fans in the show. Do you think all those people chanting "YOU SUCK" to Kurt Angle, think he sucked? No. They were doing the chant because it was fun and it was "the thing to do" at that particular point in time.

When Zeb Colter does the "WE THE PEOPLE" thing, you can hear the whole arena saying "WE THE PEOPLE" even though the Real Americans are heels. Does that mean that everyone in the arena likes them? Nope.

Daniel Bryan has a big fan base, no doubt about it. However, when a whole arena chants "YES" that doesn't necessarily mean DB is who they want to win the championship. Many are chanting just for the "fun" of it. Where else can you go to a live event and chant like that?
 
The IWC and the WWE define "hardcore fan differently". To the IWC "hardcore" means you know more, youve been following longer, and you always will. To WWE, Hardcore means you buy more merch and more tickets. It means that you are the fanbase that they are trying to reach. This isnt the Attitude Era, so that fan base is kids. These arent people who know the ins and outs. That said Daniel Bryan is someone that they are behind too, but they also like a freak of nature like Batista. So they can push who they want and the real "hardcore fan" wont mind.
 

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