Why do people insist Cena buries talent?

Eh...I would go as far to say there were times where imo it would've been better if Cena lost instead of won, like against Barrett/Nexus, Brock, Sandow, although in Sandow's case (pun intended) he didn't need to become WHC, Cena just didn't have to win clean thus making Sandow look absolutely worthless. I have no idea how much of that is on Cena, but I'm more inclined to blame it on creative anyway. Of course we can say the same thing about a lot of the top stars, but I think we just notice it more with Cena since he's been the top guy for so long that it's naturally going to stick out for us more.

That being said he's been doing the whole "overcoming the odds" thing for too long now where I don't really expect him to fail anymore, there's something wrong where he's usually portrayed as the underdog in whatever story he's in but I'm surprised if he actually loses. For instance when Cena was a second away from pinning Bray last night and beating all 3 members of the Wyatts at the same time I wouldn't have been surprised at all if the ref's hand hit the mat for the 3rd time because it felt like Cena done stuff like that for so long now. But if you stuck literally any other guy in there and they won I would've been shocked as hell since that would've been a major upset, compared to Cena where it would've felt like another day at the office.

For the most part I actually like Cena, he gets a lot of crap but he has put on a lot of amazing matches in his career and he's on top for good reason. I am however not a fan of "SuperCena" the supposed underdog that feels like he can't lose against insane odds because he doesn't.
 
Eh...I would go as far to say there were times where imo it would've been better if Cena lost instead of won, like against Barrett/Nexus, Brock, Sandow, although in Sandow's case (pun intended) he didn't need to become WHC, Cena just didn't have to win clean thus making Sandow look absolutely worthless. I have no idea how much of that is on Cena, but I'm more inclined to blame it on creative anyway. Of course we can say the same thing about a lot of the top stars, but I think we just notice it more with Cena since he's been the top guy for so long that it's naturally going to stick out for us more.

That being said he's been doing the whole "overcoming the odds" thing for too long now where I don't really expect him to fail anymore, there's something wrong where he's usually portrayed as the underdog in whatever story he's in but I'm surprised if he actually loses. For instance when Cena was a second away from pinning Bray last night and beating all 3 members of the Wyatts at the same time I wouldn't have been surprised at all if the ref's hand hit the mat for the 3rd time because it felt like Cena done stuff like that for so long now. But if you stuck literally any other guy in there and they won I would've been shocked as hell since that would've been a major upset, compared to Cena where it would've felt like another day at the office.

For the most part I actually like Cena, he gets a lot of crap but he has put on a lot of amazing matches in his career and he's on top for good reason. I am however not a fan of "SuperCena" the supposed underdog that feels like he can't lose against insane odds because he doesn't.

Beating Cena is special, it's not like beating Rock or Mankind or someone like that. Cena overcomes huge odds like that so when a CM Punk, Randy Orton, or Daniel Bryan beats him it's a big deal.
 
Really? Let's see...

2011
Royal Rumble - LOST
It was a Royal Rumble match. 38 other people lost too.
Wrestlemania 27 - LOST
Cena lost because The Rock hit him with a Rock Bottom. Not a clean finish.
Money In The Bank - LOST
Some guy tried to interfere; John Cena went to stop him; Punk blindsided him with a GTS for the win. Again, not a clean finish.
Summerslam - LOST
Cena had his leg on the ropes. If the referee (Triple-H) saw it, he wouldn't have lost.
Hell In A Cell - LOST
It was a Triple-Threat match where Del Rio pinned Punk. Cena was locked outside of the cell, turning it into a one-on-one match between Del Rio and Punk.
Vengeance - LOST
The Miz and R-Truth attacked Cena in this match.

Put Over - The Miz, CM Punk and Alberto Del Rio.
Not really. The Miz didn't gain anything from that controversial win. If anything, it made him look like a tool. CM Punk got himself over with that infamous promo and the matches and pipebombs to follow. Two controversial wins against Cena were not what got him over. Same with Alberto Del Rio- he pinned Punk, NOT Cena. In fact, Cena had earlier beaten Alberto for the title, thus heading into the match as the champion. Cena was locked outside of the cage, and the message sent was that he couldn't win it because he couldn't be there.
SO, NUMBER OF STARS CENA PUT OVER IN 2011 = ZERO.
NUMBER OF MATCHES CENA LOST CLEAN = ZERO.


2012
Wrestlemania 28 - LOST
First clean loss in your list so far. I hope you won't say Cena lost to Rock in order to get the latter over.
Over The Limit - LOST
Big Show hit a KO punch on Cena, and John Laurinaitis picked up the win after that.
Summerslam - LOST
Another triple-threat match, this time Punk scored the pin on Big Show.
Survivor Series - LOST
The Shield made their first appearance, and their interference enabled Punk to pick up the win.
TLC - LOST
First an interference by Vickie Guerrero, then AJ Lee tipping the ladder over. Yet another match where Cena loses ONLY because of outside interference.

Put Over - The Rock, John Laurinaitis, CM Punk and Dolph Ziggler.
LMFAO, The Rock? Seriously? He didn't need the rub from Cena; he made Cena look like an idiot. John Laurinaitis looked like a pussy before, during, and after the match. It was one of the worst matches of the year, and did nothing for anyone. Dolph Ziggler wasn't put over either; it was made to look like Ziggler won only because of the betrayal be AJ, and not because of any merit of his own.

NUMBER OF STARS CENA PUT OVER IN 2012 = ZERO.
NUMBER OF MATCHES CENA LOST CLEAN = ONE.
(two if we include Survivor Series, despite the controversial finish).

Finally, 2013
Elimination Chamber - LOST
Ryback was the one the one that got pinned, while Cena was "preoccupied".
Summerslam - LOST
Cena was not 100% fit; his left arm was visibly injured. Bryan didn't beat John Cena at his 100%.
TLC - LOST
His only second clean loss in the three years that you mentioned, and first since that loss against The Rock at previous year's Wrestlemania.

Put Over - The Shield, Daniel Bryan and Randy Orton.
Ryback took the pin, Sheamus got sent through the barricade, and Cena was... preoccupied. He didn't do anything special to get them over. Daniel Bryan... probably. A 1-2-3 pin against Cena is very rare, so its a big deal, even when he is injured. Randy Orton- Yeah. That one came as a surprise.

NUMBER OF STARS CENA (HELPED) PUT OVER IN 2013 = TWO (although he was injured in one, and the second guy was already a 8-time or so world champion).
NUMBER OF MATCHES CENA LOST CLEAN = TWO.
On the other hand, his wins in 2013 include the Royal Rumble match over 29 other superstars, defeating Ryback in a 3 Stages of Hell match, and also defeating Mark Henry and The Rock on separate occasions for the WWE Championship.

In conclusion, a look at Cena's track record during the three years that you illustrated:

NUMBER OF MATCHES CENA LOST CLEAN IN 3 YEARS= THREE.
NUMBER OF STARS CENA (HELPED) PUT OVER IN 3 YEARS = TWO (including Orton).


Are these stats great enough to make a thread praising and defending him for apparently putting talent over? No.
Are they great enough to warrant blatant rubbishing of claims of those who believe he isn't doing enough? No.
Were you incorrect in your analysis? Yes.
Does John Cena bury more than he puts over? Yes.
 
Beating Cena is special, it's not like beating Rock or Mankind or someone like that. Cena overcomes huge odds like that so when a CM Punk, Randy Orton, or Daniel Bryan beats him it's a big deal.

Fair enough, but it still doesn't make for fun watching. As for guys you just named, well I think their big wins has some strings attached to make them not as much of a big deal as they could've been, which Madden was kind enough to list.
 
Fair enough, but it still doesn't make for fun watching. As for guys you just named, well I think their big wins has some strings attached to make them not as much of a big deal as they could've been, which Madden was kind enough to list.

Meh to be fair Punk already had the match won against Cena but Vince and co. distracted him. Cena's loss to punk was legit and have no problem with it.

Orton beat Cena in no dq matches and such means he beat him clean. No rules means everything goes.

Bryan pinned Cena clean of a knee. Just a fact.
 
Overcoming the Odds!!!

This is my problem with the Cena character. I would be more inclined to cheer for a face who was fighting the machine, or had some attitude about them. The Rock lost a lot of matches and so did Austin. People will say that Cena does too... but look at who walks away from the WAR every time. Cena loses clean to Daniel because of his injury. At WM 24 he lost a triple threat match (but wait he was never pinned).

He loses to The Rock only to get revenge the next year and for the WWE Title. C'mon man... it is hard to not see what the problem is. CM Punk, RVD, Edge... did not need Cena for there programs. Brock could have stayed and done the same thing... hell probably better. Cena doesn't bury talent... but he doesn't help them much either.

A superstar faces cena and gets a dirty win, only for Cena to get his revenge and "Overcome the Odds". At this point, wrestlers who face Cena are overcoming the odds... simply because they are facing Cena. Superman needs to lose now and again or his powers seem pointless.
 
I guess we can break this down year by year. Excluding everything before 2006 because those were genuine 'Build Cena UP' years rather than the other way around.

2006:
One could say this is still a year designed primarily to get Cena over- because for the most part it was- but this was also the first year that gave Booking a chance for Cena to put others over. Lets look at the candidates.

Edge:
The tally is this; at least two genuine one-on-one PPV matches, participation in a Triple-Threat Match and the first Briefcase cash-in that started the whole thing. On paper the idea looks promising; the prior year Cena spent with technically gifted wrestlers who could get him over, but unfortunately were too liked by the audience to be treated as the storyline heels they were supposed to be. Edge worked a fair bit better in that area, though still liked. In addition, Edge could go up from the feud as he was still climbing up the midcard around this time. Unfortunately, the aim was still to Build Cena up further, hence the argument that Cena got more out of these matches than Edge did. It's a legit complaint. Not that you'd expect the biggest Babyface on the roster to lose clean ever, but at some point Edge needed something legit out of the mess.

RVD:
This one you can't really blame on Cena, y'know, since RVD was caught with a bunch of weed after winning the freaking WWE Title from Cena during ONS. One can wonder, however, if Cena would've just taken the title back at Vengeance rather than have an Extreme match against Sabu(who I doubt was going to be elevated no matter what so we're not discussing him).

King Booker:
In all fairness, this wasn't so much a feud as a distraction. After all, both guys held their respective brand title belts and had two confrontations in PPVs this year, both of which were gimmicky. Still, the fact they had a subplot of Kevin Federline and Cena actually took a loss from the guy (I think anyway?) shows that even WWE isn't afraid to make their big star look like a dunce. Y'know, so long as the title's not on the line.


2007:
Okay, by now, anybody with a decent brain would think 'this is the time to see if Cena elevates talent'. Problem is, what talent? If you went by the traditional cycles back in the days of territories, this is probably when the next class of wrestling superstars would come into the fold. Didn't quite pan out that way, though a lack of development underneath WWE had a lot to do with it.

Umaga:
Traditionally, susperstar Babyfaces got monsters to feed on in their feuds. Hulk Hogan had a steady diet of behemoths outside of the special PPVs during his time in WWF. This would be the first Monster Cena got, and what a doozy. Umaga was basically riding an unbeatable streak of destruction from the last year(the wrestler himself before that was passed all around WWE and TNA and Japan and whatnot) and had finally elevated himself to the title picture. This is one of many WWE Title feuds Cena had where I think they would've been better off with a more even record. Cena losing to Umaga at New Years Revolution probably sells Umaga's unstoppable force of nature better than sneaking a roll-up victory, adds more drama to the inevitable rematch at Royal Rumble, AND it enforces Cena's underdog gimmick while giving the young fans something to rally around to support him. That said, the two matches they DID have were brutal(IE, technically void and ugly), and Umaga probably lost more being involved with Vince's haircut match with Donald Trump at WM 23 than anything else. That and getting crushed by HHH later on. But Umaga wasn't climbing any higher than this.

Great Khali:
Unlike Umaga, Khali wasn't riding a hot streak of unstoppable terror at this time. He was still a fearsome monster, but more on the level of Kane than anything truly terrifying. It's not a bad idea as long as you stick to your strengths- and this is really the one guy only the ******s on the board would claim is better in the ring than Cena, so there wasn't much to work with. I have a difficult time swallowing the idea of Khali taking the title off Cena as opposed to Umaga, but I can imagine Cena getting the tar walloped out of him both times and surviving off the skin of his teeth. Y'see, it's guys like Khali and Umaga that make the SuperCena concept WORK as opposed to nearly anybody else.

Bobby Lashley:
This one is a little harder to determine. Like RVD, outside circumstances conspired to remove Lashley before any kind of benefit or hurt could be determined after their match at GAB(Great American Bash). Lashley at the time was essentially a Pet Project of Vince McMahon, apparently being built towards the Next Great Babyface. Everybody knows the track record (Vince HIJACKING December to Dismember '06 for Lashley, Lashley being part of the Haircut match at WM 23, Lashley LOSING the ECW title to VINCE FUCKING MCMAHON then gaining it back), so a so-called 'Dream Match' against John Cena could be seen as a step up... and surprisingly, the matched turned out well. Certainly well enough to take Lashley dead serious as a Title Contender. Only... Lashley all but disappeared from WWE after this PPV('injured' against Kennedy eight days after, supposedly). If anyone's got any legit information about why Lashley took off, please enlighten me.

Randy Orton:
Prior to Summerslam they crossed paths a couple of times, albeit only in multi-man matches which are shorthand for 'Fuck me, we forgot to put these guys in storylines, so lets lump them all together' conveniences. But really, Orton was on the outer edges of Title Contention when he wasn't killing Legends and disrespecting others with punts to the face. It's quite possible that Cena/Orton was going to be the big thing for the rest of the year, maybe. Except that Cena got injured after Unforgiven and wouldn't be back until a SHOCKING appearance at the '08 Royal Rumble. But really, I don't think Orton had been in a memorable feud at this time since Undertaker in '05. So I'd call it a small rub.


2008:
This wasn't a year where Cena built up stars. This wasn't even a year where wrestlers built Cena up. This was... well, up to the WHC feud with Chris Jericho, Cena was just there. Part of the WWE Title Picture, but never won it. His biggest 'feuds' were with HHH and JBL, both already established wrestlers who couldn't be built up further. Even Randy Orton was a Title Holder around this time, which meant Cena couldn't have done more than to nudge him upwards. But by and large they kept him from anyone who could have greatly benefited from his presence, with one minor exception.

Batista:
Unlike Lashley the year prior, this was a bona-fide Dream Match on one of the biggest PPVs possible, in a setting that should've offered no room for advancement for EITHER one as far as getting rubs goes... but Cena got legit fucked up for the pin and in the end, that's the best possible rub he could've given the Animal. That said, had Cena not been injured it's possible this feud would've extended beyond Summerslam.


2009:
Only three wrestlers of note here to discuss. Not really discussing The Miz here, as he wasn't legit buried at The Bash(this was his first Singles feud in WWE, remember, and you can't be buried if you can win the WWE title sometime afterwards).

Edge:
It's worth noting that in the end, Cena didn't walk out if this brief feud with the victory and the title. Not that Edge could've gotten much of a rub from facing Cena (especially after his moments with Batista and Undertaker in the prior two years) but he did even the score from three years ago at the end of it. Unfortunately, the fact Edge walked away from the feud as a victor on Backlash might take something away from it- the post Wrestlemania PPV is often where cheap revenge victories take place.

Randy Orton:
When I look at a John Cena feud done RIGHT, this stretch of PPV matches come the absolute closest. After NOC, there's Summerslam... and Orton comes out on top. "I Quit" match at Breaking Point. Hell in a Fucking Cell in the aptly named PPV. Anything Goes Iron Man Match to blow it all off. You hit all the stops and make sure the feud is blown off, AND you have the record stay close to even. On paper its fantastic. In execution, not so much. Both guys needed someone as a proper foil and neither of them were it, which means by the time they were hitting the big stops at the end, the crowd was starting to dive on them. Very little actual rub, but that's more on the planning than on either of the guys involved.

Sheamus:
Their Tables match in TLC loses a lot of luster when you look beyond the match. You can't even really point to it as an example that Cena will lay down for an opponent because it was a 'Table-Fall' type of match (go through a table and lose) that could hide the inexperience of Sheamus and doesn't involve a pinfall to legitimize the loss.(Smarks in the upgraded seats on the Cena Hate Train will go further and cite Sheamus' status as HHH's friend to further degrade the match)


2010:
Most will easily cite this as a definite year of Cena being the ditchdigging ****e that he is. Let's have a look.

Batista:
Can't exactly call this a rub, since Batista was on his way out. But I still think this is the one Cena Feud that demanded a more even outcome- maybe a Batista win at Extreme Rules which leaves Cena demolished enough to justify what he does to the Animal in Over the Limit. But that's firmly in the realm of making Cena look more appealing. No real rub, pass.

Sheamus:
Thought we were done with this guy? Not by a long shot. Sheamus manages to take the title from Cena during a Four-Way match, then their rematch gets essentially hijacked by the NEXUS. In both cases, Cena isn't able to give much of a rub to the Irishman due to booking circumstances.

The Nexus:
The BIIIIIIIIIG Elephant in the room. Seven Youngsters from NXT making a name for themselves as a Heel faction, and the biggest Babyface in the WWE is right in their crosshairs.

WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN?!

Okay, taking it serious for a second, there were two major points where the story being told was essentially tossed aside for various reasons;

1. Edge and Jericho once commented that for the 7-on-7 match at Summerslam, Cena came up with the idea of getting piledriven into the concrete outside the ring and kicking out before winning. According to them, they told Cena it was a dumb idea, Cena did it anyway, and later admitted it was a dumb idea. I wouldn't classify it as a burial so much as the kind of fuckup that occasionally happens when you make up the match on the fly- the kind where you think something is cool but it really isn't. You'd think EVERYBODY that ever had a mistaken sense of innovation in their lives would understand, but those same people are blind about it.

2. After getting Kayfabe fired by the Nexus after refusing to help them screw Randy Orton at Survivor Series, Cena shows up a week later as part of the Audience, where he systematically assaults and destroys the Nexus until he gets a match against Wade Barrett at TLC, where he 'buries' him under tons of chairs after winning.

Not that the spectacle ends there. After CM Punk essentially revives the Nexus with Barrett forming the CORRE in response, Cena burns Nexus to the ground and pisses on the ashes at the Royal Rumble, then fucks with BOTH factions as a Guest Referee for the hell of it leading up to Wrestlemania.

The second one is much less defensible, but frankly I blame booking more than Cena(unless someone directly comes out and states Cena demanded those things) because they must've crapped their pants at a PPV without John Cena at the Main Event. Really, I'd have had Nexus terrorize TLC, with Barrett taking the WWE Title. Then have the battle for control between Barrett and CM Punk. Works like before, leading up to the Royal Rumble with the New Nexus and the CORRE staring each other down or something and then Cena's music hits.

But I'm digressing. Having a 7-on-7 match at Summerslam might have been too much too fast for the Nexus, even in victory.


2011:
Now the shit is getting revved up.

The Miz:
I've got to honestly say, I don't see a real rub here. Miz got fucked from the start because his feud partner was suddenly embroiled the the presence of THE ROCK, which turned Miz into a 3rd leg even though he held the belt. Of course, he drops it in the 'Feud Dump' of PPVs, then loses the Rubber Match "I Quit" style to Cena in the next one. So there really was no rub. You can't really even say it was a burial either because they turned right around and partnered him with R-Truth when he was one paranoid brain-fucked bastard and they revolved their entire storyline about being neglected and passed up and staged a revolt. They both stayed relevent enough to be thumped by Rock and Cena at Survivor Series, whereupon Miz was still relevent as a Title Contender up to Elimination Chamber. At that point, it was on him and we know the rest.

CM Punk:
And you thought The Nexus was a miserable case. I will say this; a lot of Punk's rub and rise came from himself and his talents. Undeniable. At the same time, Cena's name still represented a push in itself just by reputation alone. Prior to this, Punk's biggest feuds were Jeff Hardy and the Undertaker for the WHC belt. Cena was a step up, end of story. And unlike every other match where Cena's name was meant to elevate his partner, this one worked out great! They were proper foils for each other, and other than needing to have Cena's leg on the rope at Summerslam, it was fitting that Cena took the loss twice in a row with the title on the line against a legit fan favorite.

Alberto Del Rio:
Back to more of the same. Not really a rub, not really a burial. Just a placeholder(Punk was feuding with HHH and a ton of other shit was going on) while waiting for Punk to disentangle himself and get back into the title hunt. Not that you could get much of a rub for Del Rio outside of Mexico.


2012:
Not commenting on the Rock or CM Punk here, as both are established.

Zack Ryder:
Not a feud, but Ryder's association with Cena was considered a step up towards relevancy but failed to go anywhere after Kane tore him a new asshole and poured gasoline in the hole and set it afire. But the truth of the matter is I don't know how long he went on after this before floundering. Was it immediately?

Brock Lesnar:
This needed a Double Countout with the tease of future battles down the line. Over a Lesnar victory even(mainly because you couldn't buy HHH or CM Punk or any potential Title Holder being able to survive against Lesnar otherwise). That's all I will say. Got a rub for the brutality, but not enough of it.

Ryback:
Not quite there yet. Ryback was simply too 'new' and put in a Triple-Threat, which was a way of freshening up the Cena-Punk feud that was still going on. It was more about Punk than anything else.

Dolph Ziggler:
There wasn't much of a rub here, sure. There wasn't going to be a push to Main Event status, which I swear is what the smarks think should happen every time. But Ziggler did get a little bit of a rub. Waiting until after Wrestlemania to cash in negated said rub though. Nothing on Cena here.


2013:

The Shield:
Only one glancing confrontation at Elimination Chamber as part of the losing side. This was back when Shield were heels doing heelish things and various trios would come forth and try to stop them. In retrospect it makes Cena more like a footnote than someone who could give these guys a rub.

Ryback:
After finally vanquishing the Rock and regaining the WWE Title, it was time for Ryback to emerge. And okay, it looks like a burial here. I say 'looks' because it quickly became apparent that Ryback's talent was inferior to the initial push he got, so he settled into the midcard. At this point, he is what he is, and any attempts to push him wouldn't have mattered.

Daniel Bryan:
This wasn't a rub. You can't really give the rub to somebody as over as DB was at the time- and apparently still is. But it was a vindication of sorts to see Bryan win clean.

Bray Wyatt:
Time will tell with this guy, but so far it hasn't been a burial.
 
I believe that people insist that Cena "buries" talent because it's almost inevitable that once a guy has been on top for the amount of time that Cena has, he'll come across a wrestler or two who are only there to have a very brief feud with the top guy before heading back down the totem pole. It's not like Cena hasn't buried a couple of guys kayfabe wise, R-Truth and Damien Sandow do come to my mind (Somebody is going to have to explain The Miz and A Ry to me). However, at the same time, most of the people that say Cena buries WWE talent are, in my opinion, grossly exaggerating their statement and then don't really give Cena enough credit for helping a few stars get to the level of stardom e.g: CM Punk and Daniel Bryan.

Absofuckinglutely correct! Just because Cena happened to be the right guy at the wrong time/wrong guy at the right time(depending upon your perception) doesn't mean he "put over" or even "elevated" Rob Van Dam and Edge. IMO, Rob Van Dam and Edge were such seasoned and talented wrestlers in 2006 that it was a gross injustice they never held a world championship until then(for whatsoever political/powers that be reasons). It would not be incorrect to say that Edge and Rob Van Dam were doing more innovative , creative and amazing things at every level(IC title, tag titles) than Cena has done with his entire career put together as early as the early 2000s. Thus, them beating John Cena to earn their righteous spots as champions was not John Cena doing them a favour but exactly the other way around. EDGE elevated John Cena as the crappy, unoriginal, generic and predictable "I'm an American Hero, You want some come get some, The champ is here" champion because he was doubly, triply and quadruply talented in arenas Cena had never known- whether it be the TLC match, a tag team match, or Steel Cage.

You mention kayfabe later on in this post so, my debatable points to you will all be in the sense of kayfabe. It would not be incorrect to say that John Cena elevated Edge in 2006 because Cena did indeed elevate Edge when Edge cashed in his Money in the Bank briefcase on him at New Year's Revolution and they went on to feud for the title for most of the year. Edge had been wrestling on the mid card for most of his career. Whether it was "a gross injustice" or not, this was a fact. You add the WWE Champion John Cena into Edge's career and within six months, Edge has gone from top level mid carder to solid main event player with not one but two title reigns to his name.Now, did Edge elevate Cena as you say? He sure did. Both wrestlers benefited from their feud as Cena became a more credible champion by beating someone as good as Edge in the matches that they went through.

I disagree with the one who asserted no top star has put over more people or as many people as John Cena. Aeh Aeh! You couldn't be more wrong. Since the concept of a top star "putting over" depends on subjective factors and is open to endless debate, lets just decide for the purpose of exposition that putting over consists of a combination of a top star "letting the challenger win/losing to him" and "elevating the young guy/challenger irrespective of who wins, by way of having wrestled a great match/having had an amazing feud" . That being said, Randy Orton is the guy who has put more people "over" because not only did he agree to drop belts to them but elevated them by way of a "rub" and the very fact that the feud was decorated and storied. Examples- Cody Rhodes, Wade Barrett, Mark Henry, Christian, among others.

Cena has dropped belts to the likes of Del Rio, Sheamus, CM Punk for his first WWE title, Edge, and Rob Van Dam. He's given a "rub" to numerous talents such as Barrett, The Miz, the Wyatt Family, The Shield, and other as well.

It's also highly debatable that John Cena "put over" the elite list of wrestlers like CM Punk and Edge, simply based on the fact that he agreed to NOT WIN on certain events. This can be proved by the following observations:-

Every time John Cena has "supposedly put over" a guy, that particular guy has either switched brands(Edge), kayfabe been fired/retired temporarily(Chris Jericho, Christian, Batista), or been confronted with endless obscurity for a long time(Wade Barrett in 2010, Miz in 2011, Damien Sandow in 2013). I don't think that's "putting over" .

If we talk kayfabe then it ruins your Cody Rhodes example. Randy beating Rhodes when he was a part of the Authority led to Rhodes being let go. Also, the way the announcers were portraying the story, they made it seem as if Cody was going to need a miracle to beat Orton. Not they were on the same playing field talent wise. In Edge's case, it's not like he tucked his tail between his legs and went somewhere else because he couldn't hang. He switched brands and immediately became World Heavyweight Champion by beating the Undertaker. Sandow I agree with but The Miz and Wade Barrett I don't really see. For Barrett, he beat Cena and was then elevated to the main event scene where he took on Randy Orton and even got Cena fired. If anybody has to shoulder the blame for Barrett being "Burried" then that award should go to the leader of New Nexus, CM Punk. Again kayfabe wise, Punk kicked Barrett out of Nexus and he went on to become the leader of a much lesser successful group known as The Corre. Miz's biggest claim to his fame is that he pinned John Cena in the main event of Wrestlemaina 27, something that only Randy Orton and The Rock can say. That's some pretty good company to be in and always a reason to say he could be deserving of a spot in the main event whenever he wants back in. Jericho and Batista are accurate and I never heard anybody really saying that Christian was elevated by Cena but then again, I never really paid attention to the message boards back then.

In CM Punk's case, once again, John Cena didn't make CM Punk by bestowing an honour upon Punk by losing the MITB '11 match. CM Punk made CM Punk and actually inspired new life into the-then boring/monotonous/directionless WWE.

Cena did help give Punk the "Best in the World" moniker. Having anybody besides Cena, the WWE's number 1 guy for the past decade or so at that time, in that type of a match would've given the kayfabe critics an excuse to say that CM Punk beat someone of a lesser talent to walk out of the company with the belt. It was a big enough deal to have Punk leave MITB with the WWE Championship but, to have him beat John Cena legitimized everything that CM Punk said in his "pipebomb" promo and gave him that final push to him being the star that he now is. Same case with Daniel Bryan. Had he had beaten somebody like Mark Henry or Ryback for the title before Triple H screwed him for it, it's not as big of a deal as going over Cena.

A real "putting over" on the other hand, is someone like Randy Orton. In contrast to Edge actually being the one who elevated Cena in 2006/2007, it was Randy Orton who actually elevated Christian and seasoned him as a main-eventer(no matter how transitory) because of what their 2011 feud did to Christian.
Again, Randy Orton's 2011/2012 feuds with Wade Barrett and Cody Rhodes did not put them into obscurity but only elevated them. [/Quote]

Or kept them on par with where they were. Assuming that you're talking about the Survivor Series encounter between the three men, Barrett and Rhodes maintained the course and held onto/regained their mid card titles. Were not put into obscurity right after facing Orton but, really didn't become legit threats at world titles either.

It's clear from these arguments that Randy Orton has put more guys over whether it be by elevating them or by a list of the number of times he "lost" to a guy or "dropped" the world title to a first-time champion.

John Cena puts a good number of guys over as well despite what the general anti-Cena community feels. Guys like Caesaro, Punk, Bryan, and Wyatt as proof of that. The list is pretty much the same between both of them, especially when both guys were faces. Name a guy that Orton beat, Cena can be mentioned in the same air and vice versa. And when you talk about Orton dropping titles to first timers, do you mean like how Cena lost to Sheamus, Edge, and Rob Van Dam for them to win their first World Championships while Orton has only "dropped" the belt to a first time world champion twice to Mark Henry and The Miz?
 
Meh to be fair Punk already had the match won against Cena but Vince and co. distracted him. Cena's loss to punk was legit and have no problem with it.

Orton beat Cena in no dq matches and such means he beat him clean. No rules means everything goes.

Bryan pinned Cena clean of a knee. Just a fact.

Eh, still looked pretty even at the point. Cena was down but hardly out. Him releasing Punk from the STF to knock out Laurinaitis to pretty much save Punk the match and then lose to a surprise GTS imo doesn't make it a clean win for Punk.

Problem with the whole Orton thing is he loses whenever normal rules applies on top of losing in non-DQ matches. If Orton won every non-DQ contest against Cena you might have something there, but who could forget Orton screaming "I quit!!" to lose the title. Although at this stage in Orton's career losing or beating Cena isn't that big of a deal since they've gone at it so many times.

Wouldn't call it totally clean either, pretty much everyone knew that Cena needed surgery and had to take significant time off/drop the title. They even had him show off that gross lump on his elbow the next night. Just a few facts you didn't include
 
Eh, still looked pretty even at the point. Cena was down but hardly out. Him releasing Punk from the STF to knock out Laurinaitis to pretty much save Punk the match and then lose to a surprise GTS imo doesn't make it a clean win for Punk.
Thing is when punk face any of the tops name at this point he was put down. Whether it was Trips, Taker, or Orton. Punk always lost to them. Cena put him over in a huge way. And couldn't beat him forever after that.

Problem with the whole Orton thing is he loses whenever normal rules applies on top of losing in non-DQ matches. If Orton won every non-DQ contest against Cena you might have something there, but who could forget Orton screaming "I quit!!" to lose the title. Although at this stage in Orton's career losing or beating Cena isn't that big of a deal since they've gone at it so many times.
I see your point but an I quit match isn't the same considering I don't even know if the Cena character knows the word quit.

Wouldn't call it totally clean either, pretty much everyone knew that Cena needed surgery and had to take significant time off/drop the title. They even had him show off that gross lump on his elbow the next night. Just a few facts you didn't include
Meh again he put him over clean imo,
 
Thing is when punk face any of the tops name at this point he was put down. Whether it was Trips, Taker, or Orton. Punk always lost to them. Cena put him over in a huge way. And couldn't beat him forever after that.


I see your point but an I quit match isn't the same considering I don't even know if the Cena character knows the word quit.


Meh again he put him over clean imo,

I have no idea how to do the split quoting thing, so....

1. Good point about Punk, but he had some weird booking before and even during his long title reign, which had very little in terms of top names outside of Cena, ironically.

2. Sure he knows the word, he has a t-shirt that says to never do it. (or close enough) :p

3. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then
 
Someone brought up Cena's matches with Sandow. I thought those 2 matches were 2 of the best I had seen with Cena, especially when Sandow cashed in. Is it Cena's fault that Sandow has gone nowhere since? No. A lot of times it seems creative doesn't have plans for these guys after they face Cena.

I don't think it's Cena burying wrestlers, but creative not having backup plans for these guys to bounce back and continue to be relevant.
 
Honestly, people have been hating on Cena for so long most of the time they are doing so because it is the popular thing to do. You could ask every Cena hater on this forum for a clear reason why they don't like him and you probably wouldn't get anything remotely resembling a logical answer. Mind you I am not a Cena fan, nor have I ever claimed to be.

However, I believe Cena is the WWE at this point because no one else has stepped up enough to knock him off the mountain top. Ask anyone who watches WWE who embodies the company and most people would say John Cena. I respect what he has done as the company face for the past 10 years and he deserves his spot in the company perhaps more so than anyone else. He has had numerous injuries that would have kept lesser talents out for long hiatuses but Cena returns in mere months because he genuinely seems to love what he does. As for the burying argument, I don't see it. He loses when it makes sense to lose and he wins likewise when he should. He has put over so many talents that it is quite laughable to even consider that he is purposely burying anyone. If Damien Sandow and Alex Riley are the best choices for people Cena has supposedly "buried", then this topic is screwed from the get go. Sandow just isn't ready to be anywhere near the main events yet and Riley was a green rookie who was about as vanilla as it gets! Does Cena win often? Yes, but others such as Hogan, Austin, Rock, and HHH won a lot during their careers too and you'll find that most people that have been around longer than 10 years have. My only fault with Cena isn't that he buries talent, it is that he is the same character he's been since 2004 and hasn't changed any. If this were any other era whether it was the Golden Era or the Attitude Era, Cena would have long since turned heel. WWE openly taunts their fans with Cena referencing heel turns and then has him claim he is who he is and that he's not willing to change. Characters like that never evolve and certainly do not have anything innovative to offer that keeps fans wanting to see more. It is basically the same dated routine and that's what I take issue with. Same for others like Kofi Kingston and Rey Mysterio: they are kiddie novelty acts and do not change. Fans get tired of that, which is the reason for most Cena hate topics online. Then there are those who hate certain guys no matter who they are or what they do. In the era, it is common for fans to hate either[or both] Cena or Randy Orton. Regardless of one's personal preference, both Orton & Cena have busted ass to get where they are and deserve their spots until someone new can come along and take their spots from them. So far no one has stepped up....
 
Hows come you didn't bring up him no selling of people's moves? Or how he no sold the beating at Extreme Rules Lesnar gave him when he did his promo after the match? Or his no sells of Miz and Riley at Extreme Rules 2010? Hes the king of no selling.
 
I don't like that term "buried". It's too overused in my opinion. Cena doesn't bury people, it's the creative writers that do.

It is the single-most misused, and overused, term that is used by wrestling fans.

Basically, if a guy doesn't get a push to the moon, he is "buried". A guy could be winning every match, but since he's in the mid-card, he is being "buried" by the WWE. It really is ridiculous.

And as you said, Cena doesn't get to decide if he wins or loses. For as much as I'm tired of his on-screen schtick, I'm not going to make claims that he buries anyone because it's not true.

I've seen "A-Ry" brought up multiple times. Really? It's Cena's fault that A-Ry is a commentator now?
 
Overcoming the Odds!!!

This is my problem with the Cena character. I would be more inclined to cheer for a face who was fighting the machine, or had some attitude about them. The Rock lost a lot of matches and so did Austin. People will say that Cena does too... but look at who walks away from the WAR every time. Cena loses clean to Daniel because of his injury. At WM 24 he lost a triple threat match (but wait he was never pinned).

He loses to The Rock only to get revenge the next year and for the WWE Title. C'mon man... it is hard to not see what the problem is. CM Punk, RVD, Edge... did not need Cena for there programs. Brock could have stayed and done the same thing... hell probably better. Cena doesn't bury talent... but he doesn't help them much either.

A superstar faces cena and gets a dirty win, only for Cena to get his revenge and "Overcome the Odds". At this point, wrestlers who face Cena are overcoming the odds... simply because they are facing Cena. Superman needs to lose now and again or his powers seem pointless.

Not all babyfaces are meant to fight the "machine".

Austin probably lost about ten times during the Attitude Era. Seriously, Austin losing alot is bullfaced lie. Austin walked away from the WAR every time as well. So did Rock. So did Hogan.

I saw Bryan beat Cena clean as a whistle with a move that had nothing to do with Cena's injured arm.

He was the one pinned in the triple threat match at Mania 24. This is how I know this post is full of crap. Some of the things you say is at least subjective. But that comment about the triple threat match is so embarrassing.

If you understand the business, him coming out on top in the feud with Rock should make alot of sense to you. Just say you don't like Cena and didn't want to see him defeat Rock.

It's your opinion if you think some other mid carder could have elevated Edge, Punk, RVD, Bryan etc.. The fact that they are the little engines that could taking on the dynasty known as Cena is already a rub. Cena does lose every now and then.

Every top dog overcomes the odds. This is nothing new for WWE with Cena. Once again, the fact that you flat out lied about the triple threat at Mania 24 is just.........Wow. I guess you probably thought no one here was going to catch that, and you almost got away with it.
 
Cena doesn't bury talent, wwe buries them. Problem is wins and losses don't matter, it is how Cena acts that does. Too often after a loss, Cena seems to be able to just shrug it off making that loss meaningless. But that is wwe's fault as that is how they book things. Take a big one from the last few years - his loss to The Rock. Next night on Raw he talked about it but did he sell it as a big loss? Nope. Then came Lesnar - Cena got dropped on Raw but what happened at the ppv? Then look at that entire year - Punk was the champ but the Cena/Big Johnny storyline was the main event. Promoting the rematch with The Rock he talked about how tough the last year had been but from watching Raw, you wouldn't have noticed as he always came out on top. Imagine if he spent that year losing every match for months, getting more and more frustrated until he finally won the Rumble. Imagine how many guys could have been elevated by beating him and him selling it as a big deal. Cena is only partially to blame because if he was so smart about the industry he would tell Vince he needs to lose more and make it count but in the end, wwe books him this way. They did the same with Hogan with the same result - he was hot when he started but by the time he left WWF, people were glad to see him leave. Cena is just never going to leave.
 
I think the real problem is that people are going around saying things to provoke people. John Cena: The Person You See at primetime is worlds apart from John Cena: The Person you don't watch for the other 21 hours of the day.

But not really much different at the core.

John Cena isn't on the creative team. Most of the time, the CT finds something they think will work, and then it falls apart on them. Nobody is perfect, but seeing the same routine of the face version of what was his heel run in '03, there are things that could be experimented on.

Look at Undertaker for example. Western Mortician > Super Evil Cult Leader > Temporarily Reveals True Identity > Previously > True Badass > Super Badass > Hybrid of previous incarnations.


There are several ways to gradually change Cena's character. He's elevated several wrestlers, sure. But placing the blame solely on Cena for other wrestlers' downfalls and hating him for being the same damn gimmick for 11 years (albeit with unnoticeable changes) are two separate things that aren't entirely his fault. Stale as his character is, this argument is equally as stale.
 
I feel that the Anti-Cena bandwagon gets out of hand at times. They have to realize he is fully dedicated his position and job and will keep on going until the day he collapses and can't wrestle anymore. In terms of workrate I feel he could be carried to a great match with the right opponent. Just look at these matches and tell me they weren't great:

- vs. Kurt Angle at No Way Out 2003

- vs. JBL at Judgment Day 2005

- vs. Triple H vs. Edge at Backlash 2006

- vs. Edge at Unforgiven 2006

- vs. Umaga at Royal Rumble 2007

- vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania 23

- vs. Shawn Michaels on Raw 04/23/07

- vs. Edge vs. Randy Orton vs. Shawn Michaels at Backlash 2007

- vs. Bobby Lashley at The Great American Bash 2007

- vs. Randy Orton at SummerSlam 2007

- Royal Rumble match at Royal Rumble 2008

- Elimination Chamber match at No Way Out 2009

- vs. Edge at Backlash 2009

- vs. Randy Orton at Breaking Point

- vs. Batista at Extreme Rules 2010

- Elimination Chamber match at Elimination Chamber 2011

- vs. John Morrison vs. The Miz at Extreme Rules 2011

- vs. CM Punk at Money in the Bank 2011 (Rated 5 stars by Dave Meltzer)

- vs. Alberto Del Rio at Vengeance 2011

- vs. Brock Lesnar at Extreme Rules 2012

- vs. CM Punk at Night of Champions 2012

- vs. Dolph Ziggler at TLC 2012

- vs. CM Punk at Raw 02/25/13

- vs. Daniel Bryan at SummerSlam 2013

- vs. Cesaro at Raw 02/17/14


Those matches I listed were rated 4+ stars by Dave Meltzer, now I don't think Dave Meltzer's ratings are the be all end all of wrestling in terms of workrate, but I do however feel they serve as a good guideline on how good a wrestler is workrate wise.
 
lol at the notion that one can only be put over with a clean win. Randy Savage had Hogan's help to cheat Dibiase out of the WWF Championship in the tournament finals at Wrestlemania IV. Neither Hogan or Savage were damaged. And although the decision to do this was someone questionable, Savage is no less a legend because he didn't do it on his own.

This obsession with clean victories is idiotic. Especially when it's a heel in question. Why the fuck would a heel ever beat the top baby face clean? And why don't people consider Cena vs Punk at MITB's finish clean? Cena wasn't attacked. He lost the match because his do gooder mentality caused him to take his eye off the ball. It's actually perfect wrestling psychology.
 
Someone brought up Cena's matches with Sandow. I thought those 2 matches were 2 of the best I had seen with Cena, especially when Sandow cashed in. Is it Cena's fault that Sandow has gone nowhere since? No. A lot of times it seems creative doesn't have plans for these guys after they face Cena.

I don't think it's Cena burying wrestlers, but creative not having backup plans for these guys to bounce back and continue to be relevant.

I agree with this.

Sandow was nowhere near ready to be World Heavyweight Champion, even with the Big Gold Belt having fallen in prestige. The only reason he even won Money in the Bank was because SOMEONE had to win it, and as an excuse for Cody to turn face.

Cena did not bury Alex Riley. Creative mishandled Alex Riley by giving him minimal opportunities to work on his craft and improve before shoving him into the deep end where his inexperience showed through sloppy performances. Not Riley's fault, but management's for not grooming him properly. They then proceeded to toss him to the way side and go out of their way to avoid using him. Even other low card talents like Heath Slater and Zack Ryder get to appear semi regularly in comedy segments and as enhancement talents, but Riley was never even given so much as that, in spite of making massive improvements in the ring.
 
Cena did not bury Alex Riley. Creative mishandled Alex Riley by giving him minimal opportunities to work on his craft and improve before shoving him into the deep end where his inexperience showed through sloppy performances. Not Riley's fault, but management's for not grooming him properly. They then proceeded to toss him to the way side and go out of their way to avoid using him.

I wouldn't go absolving Alex Riley of all guilt regarding his lack of staying power.

Alex had plenty of experience as an over performer in FCW, I think that it's his own fault that the big stage apparently got to him. I remember how stupid the Royal Rumble became after Alex accidentally fell to the floor way before he was supposed to be eliminated. He wasn't just a bit player in that match, he was part of a major development involving Cena's elimination and Cena had to sit there for ten seconds with a "did that really just happen?" look on his face.

When I watched him dork up his promos and wrestle like he's square dancing, I wasn't watching the same guy that had been one of the top guys in FCW. I think he felt way out of his element and his best at that time just wasn't good enough to stay on tv.

To stay in line with the thread, John Cena probably really wanted to make Alex Riley into a star. I'll pay to see literally anybody get spots where they get to hurt John Cena, even if it's John being sucker punched by a relative nobody. At a certain point, fans like me start to dwindle and you can't just rely on my hatred for John Cena to make yourself look good for beating on him. Alex Riley failed to present himself as a potential mainstay.
 
Because most people don't understand what buried means in a wrestling sense. John Cena winning matches against young guys because he is THE guy is not burying.... He's giving the young guys a rub by just being in matches with them and that's what people don't understand.

People like Kevin Nash and HHH had the oppurtunity to bury who they wanted because they were both booking at the time when they were at the top, however Cena has no say in what Creative does with him so Cena can't really bury anybody... WWE Creative can't even bury people THROUGH John Cena because just being in a match with him makes you relevant, even if it's just for a short time. It's not Cena's fault that these young guys couldn't step up and keep their ball rolling.
 
This obsession with clean victories is idiotic. Especially when it's a heel in question. Why the fuck would a heel ever beat the top baby face clean? And why don't people consider Cena vs Punk at MITB's finish clean? Cena wasn't attacked. He lost the match because his do gooder mentality caused him to take his eye off the ball. It's actually perfect wrestling psychology.

People also selectively over-analyze that match. They point out how Cena was distracted by Vince coming down to try and screw Punk while also conveniently leaving out the part where Punk kicked out of two Attitude Adjustments.

That match was a fucking classic and one of the greatest wrestling matches I've ever seen in my life. They told the story perfectly, and the finish was a big part of that. Anybody was disputes the fact that Punk was absolutely made into a top star by that match and feud is an idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about.
 

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