Why Bury Submission Wrestling?

[EtherBoo]

After watching Survivor Series last night (was there live), I couldn't help but feel like WWE has something against submission moves. With the exception of John Cena, I can't really think of any wrestler that uses a submission as a finisher.

Shawn Michaels was all over Randy Orton last night, dominating him the whole match. Then RO manages to pull off an RKO and the match ends. It seemed like such a cheap finish a real stomp on submission wrestling. If RO could get out of all these finisher submission moves, then why couldn't SM kick out once and give the match some suspense.

Thoughts?

 

[Meilichia]

I kind of agree, I quite enjoyed the inclusion of submission moves, but for some reason now its almost a 'heel' thing to do, hense why we hardly see them now. I think they are great in a match and should be used for more often. There is a huge gap in wrestling right now; there is the powerful fighting style, and the light weights, there is missing a technical element to wrestling recently, with the exclusion of a very few.

 

[Hardinhoff]

This issue brings me back to why CM Punk's finisher was changed. When I first saw the Anaconda Vice, I was immediately a fan. I figured they were going to attempt to make him a shooter or something like that. All of a sudden he starts using the GTS (which I marked out for a bit b/c I am a HUGE KENTA fan). I feel that its not submission wrestling, but the star that said submission is attached to.

Kurt Angle for instance. Submission wrestling was his MO in the WWE and the fans latched onto that. But why? He got time to talk on the mic. The fans understood where he was coming from because he got mic time. If Punk got more mic time and kept the Vice as his finisher, it could be a good thing. It just depends on the promos and the mic time that said superstar gets...

 

[FoleyIsGod]

I was reading PowerSlam(Uk wrestling magazine) and they had an interview with Hogan from the 80s. He puts it perfectly, saying that "American fans and Japanese fans want different things. American fans will chant boring during a good submission fans and want to see the holy shit moments, whilst the Japanese fans want to see honor and traditional wrestling bouts."

Its true, wrestling styles change the world over. In the Uk its more technical based, Japan its more geared towards honor and tradition, Mexico is a lot more lucha libra based and America its Sports Entertainment.

 

[EtherBoo]

I disagree with that FoleyIsGod. I was at the AAA and fans were into the submission style at first. It got stale when it was Shawn Michaels dominating Randy Orton. Fans around me were also RoH fans (I always seem to get tickets near the RoH guys), and they were all suprised to see the real wrestling and very much into it.

When Randy got the RKO, and Shawn didn't kick out, nobody boo'd because that would be supporting him as a heel. Some people actually walked out.

It's reasons like this, I don't think we'll ever see a last match from Bret in WWE.

 

[tb93]

I disagree with that FoleyIsGod. I was at the AAA and fans were into the submission style at first. It got stale when it was Shawn Michaels dominating Randy Orton. Fans around me were also RoH fans (I always seem to get tickets near the RoH guys), and they were all suprised to see the real wrestling and very much into it.

When Randy got the RKO, and Shawn didn't kick out, nobody boo'd because that would be supporting him as a heel. Some people actually walked out.

It's reasons like this, I don't think we'll ever see a last match from Bret in WWE.

No the reason youll never see one last match from bret in the wwe is because he physically cant.

And to answer the thread, i think the average fan doesnt enjoy submission wrestling. Like someone said above me, American fans chant boring during submissions. They want to see high impact wrestling. I enjoyed the anconda vice aswell. But i like the gts too. So why doesnt he just do the gts and afterwards make them tap to the vice.

 

[Shocky]

It's all cyclical. Submission wrestling will make it's return once the Rock and Wrestling bullshit we are in again takes a back seat.

It's Brawling, entertainment during the Cena Era
Before that was guys like Brock, Angle and Benoit running the WWE...
Before that, the Attitude Era, more Brawling
Before that, Bret Hart's era, focused back on in ring work and submission style
Before that, the Hogan and more brawling
Before that, Bob Backlund, Submission style wrestling, shoot stle
Before that, Billy Graham and more of the entertainment
Before that, Bruno and more shoot style wrestling

You can go on and on forever. People get bored with a certain style for a very long time. The WWE has been back on the brawling, posing, non wrestling wrestling matches for 4 years now. Soon it will make a turn back to shooter/submission style. It goes on and on. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Mad Metal]

It's all cyclical. Submission wrestling will make it's return once the Rock and Wrestling bullshit we are in again takes a back seat.

It's Brawling, entertainment during the Cena Era
Before that was guys like Brock, Angle and Benoit running the WWE...
Before that, the Attitude Era, more Brawling
Before that, Bret Hart's era, focused back on in ring work and submission style
Before that, the Hogan and more brawling
Before that, Bob Backlund, Submission style wrestling, shoot stle
Before that, Billy Graham and more of the entertainment
Before that, Bruno and more shoot style wrestling

You can go on and on forever. People get bored with a certain style for a very long time. The WWE has been back on the brawling, posing, non wrestling wrestling matches for 4 years now. Soon it will make a turn back to shooter/submission style. It goes on and on. I wouldn't worry about it.

Very excellent post. Too bad it shows I can't rep you again.

I remember back in the Austin era when it was all brawling, it seemed as if the primary move was to throw many "punches" and "kicks" which are the primary moves for people to claim wrestling is fake. I remember when the draft first started, the WWE was more focussed on the actual wrestling with less backstage segments and I remember I would pay attention more to the action and would notice you would see that moves such as punches and kicks were toned down majorly which make the action look more realistic, especially with guys such as Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle that would literally make you say "this action doesn't look fake".

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Its very true that its cylical, I kind of wish it wasnt. its like they condemn themselves to one style or another. They should keep at least a few guys around who use a submission as a finisher, as I dont think people in general thinks its boring, espcially since a lot of moves are come out of nowere type finishers (ankle lock, anaconda vise, tazzmission) they can be very exciting and dramatic. I think they should keep at least a few guys having dominating and decisive submission holds, and I wish they wouldve kept Punk with the vice.

 

[Jacque Arique]

The Maneuvers Which Make The Fighter Tap The Hand Are Gone From The Professional Combat

With The Absence Of The Olympian Champion Curt Angel, And The Passing On Of The Quick Fox Chris Benoit, We Observe No More Of The Leg Hold And Face Crossings.

It Is Only By The Child Who Breaks The Hearts Where It Can Make A Return To The Primary River

 

[NYSandman]

It's all cyclical. Submission wrestling will make it's return once the Rock and Wrestling bullshit we are in again takes a back seat.

It's Brawling, entertainment during the Cena Era
Before that was guys like Brock, Angle and Benoit running the WWE...
Before that, the Attitude Era, more Brawling
Before that, Bret Hart's era, focused back on in ring work and submission style
Before that, the Hogan and more brawling
Before that, Bob Backlund, Submission style wrestling, shoot stle
Before that, Billy Graham and more of the entertainment
Before that, Bruno and more shoot style wrestling

You can go on and on forever. People get bored with a certain style for a very long time. The WWE has been back on the brawling, posing, non wrestling wrestling matches for 4 years now. Soon it will make a turn back to shooter/submission style. It goes on and on. I wouldn't worry about it.

Nice post!

I, for one, like a good mix. I remember when Angle and Benoit used to go at it. They usually started off doing some great technical wrestling and submission holds, and then it would degenerate into a brawl. That's how it should be done, a good mix of submission, high flying, and brawling. Not always in one match, though. Different wrestlers have different styles, and you cannot expect guys to be able to do everything.

But, I believe strongly in something from Foley's books. He said that wrestling should be like a three ring circus. If you don't like the elephants, you'll probably like the clowns. There should be something for everyone, and it seems like fans of submission wrestling have been left out in the cold.

Also, many pros are not trained extensively in the amateur style of mat wrestling, and I wonder how many guys are left in the locker room who can pull these moves off.

Vince will continue to tweak the product based on fans' reactions, and if they don't react well to submission wrestling, then we just won't see it.

 

[NYSandman]

Another note on submission style.

We also have to ask ourselves how much is true pain and how much is a work.

I am wondering how many submission moves, past and present, actually hurt. They may have had the POTENTIAL to hurt, but how many guys actually sinched the move on to 100% effect?

I mean, when Rick Martel hit the Boston Crab, did that move actually hurt his opponent, or was it a work?

When Cena hits the M I G H T Y STFU, we must ask two questions.

1. Is this man actually performing a move that hurts, or has the potential to hurt if it were done in a non-wrestling fight?

2. How much of the opponent's pain is real, and how much is a work?

The whole concept of submission wrestling in the PRO form, is subjective. I have no doubt there are submission holds in ametuer wrestling that hurt, and are intented to win a match. But, can it really be called submission in PRO wrestling if both the opponent and aggressor are "selling" the move?

I don't think these questions can really be answered. I haven't read a damn thing about submission holds. I've read of pulling punches, selling moves and the such, but, to my knowlege, no one has ever said how much true "pain" is involved in submission holds when it comes to pro wrestling.

If it is mostly selling, then any wrestler can throw in a submission. If your opponent says it hurts, well, then in pro wrestling it does.

Take the mandibal claw. Does anyone believe that this move actually had any real effect? Also, is the concept of this move true, meaning if you applied pressure in someone's mouth correctly, could you actually paralyze them?

Again, another question. If this move does work in real life, does Mick Foley actually know how to appy it? No, I don't think so.

It's very, very confusing, and I'm getting a headache trying to explain it.

 

[MightyFlameboy]

I think the WWE needs some high intensity brawling. I was bored to tears when I saw recent matches of Batista and Khali punching each other, with probably less than 5 wrestling moves executed in the whole match. Then, I loaded up old PPV VCDs of the Rock and Austin brawling. I nearly forgot how brawling can be that entertaining!

Well, back to topic, take comfort in the fact that Chris Jericho is back. I would love to see him do his old version of Liontamer and put wrestlers into a world of legitimate real hurt. Ric Flair is going on a 'undefeated' run and I foresee many wrestlers tapping out to the Figure-4 Leglock in days to come.

But as for actual submission fighting style, not just the occasional submission finisher itself, I doubt the proficiency in the WWE roster is enough to work a good submission match. Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit are not around anymore.

 

[EtherBoo]

I think this post has deviated from my original topic of discussion, which isn't why is there no submission wrestling, it's asking why they choose to make it seem fake and ineffective.

Again, at SS, Shawn was dominating Randy Orton in a submission style match. Then, out of nowhere, Randy pulls a RKO out of his ass and the match is over. It seems like all that hard work Shawn did working Randy down (which he sold) was all for nothing. Considering this was one of their big PPV's, I at least expected Shawn to kick out of it and go to a more brawling style, pulling one of the Submission moves that can come out of nowhere, or maybe even a Pedigree or Stunner as an attempt at his finisher.

They made it look like all his Wrestling knowledge was BS and counted for nothing, and falls to an RKO at the drop of a hat.

 

[Father:_Polley]

IMO, they have a thing against submission moves because it's not 'entertaining'. and im sure we're all guilty of this, but it's because they try to force a sleeper or octopus stretch which we all know they'll 'lose consciousness' then miraculously fight back and power out as their arms coming down again. maybe if the pushed submission wrestling as actually powerful holds that could end the match, then yeah, fans'd buy it, instead it's just filler for a match.

also what's the point in working over body parts when ur not gonna use it. the only people who seem able to do it and win by tap are flair and taker.

 

[Da-N]

well at least we know the walls of jericho is coming back hopefully this is a sign of things to come. I know cena isn't that well liked but he has the stfu when he comes back. I liked seeing kenedy do the half crab hopefully he will incorporate this into his arsenal. That also goes for hbk using the ankle lock as he used it again against randy on raw. What ever happened to the edgecator i liked that?