Who was the biggest "victim" of Triple H's "Reign of terror"

[FoleyIsGod]

Ok, this might have been brought up before, but who do you think was the biggest victim during Triple Hs stranglehold on Raw all those years ago.

Firstly you had Jericho. He had the look, crowd reactions, mic skills and talent to be a true champion and a figurehead of Raw.

Secondly, RVD. He was white hot after the invasion and for years after, until that died with Triple H and he seemed to lose interest in wrestling after his push was stopped.

Thirdly, Booker T. Likewise with Y2J, he was popular enough to hold the belt.

Kane around that time was a believable monster,till the mask loss which destroyed his character for me.

Special mention to Eugene and Scott Steiner, pair of them looked awful vs the Triple H machine

 

[ilapierre]

The biggest victim was the WWE audience. Sure, all the wrestlers you mentioned were held back or devalued. But so was the overall product and future of wrestling. Triple H's 'stranglehold' wasn't much different than Kevin Nash booking himself in the WCW from 1999-2001. Two guys who were great in supporting roles who were even better behind the scenes politicians. A lot of wrestling fans today claim that wrestling just started sucking in the past 5 years. But the wrestling fans today are a small minority compared to the audience lost anywhere from the 2002 brand split to say 2008-2009. Those fans disappeared because things stopped making sense and so many supporting characters were getting pushed (or pushing themselves) into prime time roles. Looking back it's obvious that if Stephanie married any wrestler, that wrestler would be able to control his legacy and mold it into whatever he wanted. Paul is a ********er but most people in his shoes would have the done the exact same thing. What's best for Paul and what's worse for the rest of us. Oh and one final thing. When Vince won the Monday Night wars, he believed it was because of something he did. He thought himself invincible and held himself up in his own mind as some sort of creative genius. Furthest thing from the truth. He's damn lucky WCW self destructed when it did. So, anyway, the point is Vince hasn't vetoed Triple H's rewriting of history to prop himself up as the best ever because Vince arrogantly believes anything he produces will be well received. Triple H is living proof that Vince is dead wrong and far from the genius some of us misguided wrestling fans believed he was.

 

[johnbragg]

Kane. The transformation of Kane from the Big Red Machine, the monster impervious to pain, the first victim of the Undertaker's rage, and of course as JR kept reminding us "a former World Champion," to KAtie Vick's boyfriend.

No one else's credibility was as thoroughly ruined. Not RVD, not Booker T, not Goldberg, not Steiner, not even Jericho when he was picking up the McMahon-Helmsley's dog poop before accidentally running over the dog.

 

[OYDK]

I'd say Booker T. Beating HHH at Mania could have made him a bona-fide star. He was over with the crowd and definitely had the skill, both in the ring and on the mic, to hold the title at that time. Losing like he did killed a ton of the momentum that he had been building up since his debut, and it took him years to get back to the main event.

RVD's up there as well, but I never really saw him as championship material until later in his career.

As for Kane, from what I remember he bounced back pretty quick after losing his mask and he had some really memorable moments within that year. Setting JR on fire, kidnapping RVD, his feud with Shane, and his Mania 20 match with Taker to name a few. I actually thought that was the best work of his career.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

That's a hard question. For me the candidates for becoming world champs at that point were Kane, Jericho and Booker T.

I think the biggest misopportunity from 2002-2005 has to be Chris Jericho. I mean the man went from being as over as The Rock, to Undisputed Champion to midcard in an instant. But I don't think it was due to HHH so I'll count him out. They never really had a feud after 2002, since they were both heels. This is more like "creative's reign of terror".

It has to be Booker T though. The man had all the tools to be a world champion. He already was a five time, five time, five time WCW Champion. And he became a WH Champion later in the WWE. Booker T was the biggest talent they got in 2001, but they never really got behind him.. Such a shame. And Booker till this day, shows nothing but greatfulness for the WWE. What a guy.

The same goes for Kane.

I think HHH was lucky to have guys around him like Jericho, RVD, Kane and Booker T who just wanted to entertain the fans and didn't care about the spotlight.

Just remember what happened to guys who wanted the spotlight, like Steiner or Goldberg. Poof. They vanished in an instant.

 

[sMark]

To be fair, blame it all at HHH is unfair. I'am pretty sure Vince knew what The Kliq did to WWF years prior, but he allowed HHH to have all his friends with him on the same show - HBK, Nash, X-pac, Hall, later Flair and Evolution. So Kliq being Kliq ruled RAW in 2003-2003 and Evolution ruled RAW in 2003-2004.
Of course nobody was able to break at that time.

If you need to choose 1 victim, i'd say Chris Benoit - winning the title at Mania, and falling into midcard in 2 months. Chris was the guy fans wanted to see as champion at the time, and if WWE really got behind him and support, he could be the real main event, but RAW was still about HHH, every show was booked around him, and Benoit didn't matter because of it.

 

[Vanilla Midget]

Hands down Kane. Close second for Booker and an argument could even be made for Goldberg. Goldie was already a mega-star. His treatment in WWE lead to him not signing beyond his one year deal. What could have been? Goldberg deserving star treatment is an argument for another thread (you screwed Bret, bud).

It's ludicrous how over Kane was when he returned in 2002. That return against the Un-Americans on Raw should be text book material for WWE writers on how to book returns. The weeks of cryptic vignettes, the massive save, followed by the light heel tease before subsequent huge babyface cementation. Classic.

He won the tag titles in the fourth ever TLC match, then won the IC. No one was getting pops as huge as Kane was. Kane could have started garnering mainstream attention with the reactions he was getting. Then they did the whole necrophilia angle and had him fail to capture the World title/lose the IC title and then did dick all with him.

Kane easily, easily, could have been the guy to carry the World title into the first ever Elimination Chamber and lose to Shawn Michaels. The EC match at Survivor Series could have ended just the same, with the added addition of writing Kane into a new feud so the World title could be used for Shawn vs Triple H.

The amount of merchandise that Kane could have sold, the amount of mainstream exposure during a time when WWE was steadily declining from the mainstream is just insane. It was leaving money on the table, not backing a company guy that they built themselves and just generally embarassing themselves. I'd love to see some ratings numbers post-No Mercy 2002.

Booker is a close second, only becase he wasn't getting the reactions Kane was during the build to Mania 19. Regardless of wether the intent was to have racial undertones in the feud, you have the undermined guy go over the bigot no matter what. That would have undone the damage done by Triple H's comments altogether. This is only 6 months after the Katie Vick incident too, so WWE on a roll in poor booking.


I won't get into Goldberg too heavily. There are so many other factors to consider such as his second feud being with Jericho, but it was all downhill when he didn't get the world title at SummerSlam. He should have won on the first try. It would have been in WWE's best interest to keep Goldberg during a time when they we hemorrhaging stars.

 

[Rulk25]

Ok first on your honorable mentions nope neither of those is HHH fault
Eugene was doomed due to a horrible character...no way he was getting out of the mentaly challenged box
Scott Steiner had his own problems...By the time he came into the WWE his steroid use really screwed him up. The fans turned on him quick and he was just sloppy in the ring

Jericho was probably hurt but he still got the brag of Austin/Rock that he still lives on to this day

I say its Booker....He was getting over and then got humiliated by Rock, then Austin and was starting to make a run of it before HHH comptely buried him with a clean pin at Mania....

 

[Xpyred013]

it's funny you bring this up. I've been doing a chronological rewatch of WWF mid 97 - 2005 (guerrero's death) and i just got to the mcmahon helmsley era and holy shit am I bored. I mean, i was binge watching and enjoying everything but i just passed November and December 1999 and it took me three months to even get by a month and a half.

Then HHH really took off after his injury return and the show went to hell quick as well.

I agree with your choices OP.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

I would say RVD only because he was over and could have been a main event talent for a few years.

I am not the biggest RVD fan but there was no doubt that he was one of the few bright spots in the Invasion Angle and really came to his own that time and his popularity was on the rise.

I was talking to my cousin who is what you can describe as a casual fan and I asked him who were your current favorites at the time (around 2002/2003) and he said he liked RVD. So RVD is a guy that could have had some cross over appeal.

I found it strange though that RVD's push was derailed the moment Triple H returned from his injury. It's the same thing when I noticed the only time Jericho got the main event spot is either when Triple H is injured or when they are in separate brands.

That said WMXIX should have been RVD vs. Triple H and going over.

Honorable mentions to this list are Jericho and Booker T.

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

I think Y2J Chris Jericho is up there with Booker T. With Y2J - he was screwed in that angle where he pinned HHH and won the WWF title and then HHH made the ref reverse the decision in April 2000. It was poor booking really. But then the HHH vs Jericho feud between Rumble 2002 and WM18 was SO bad it was ridiculous. However, I have read Y2J actually take the blame for this as he had creative input in to this story line. The way that it was presented as HHH V Stephanie ruined it.

Then there was Booker T in 2003 - awful story-line and squashed like a bug by HHH. If it wasn't for his King Booker run Booker T's WWE run between 2003 and 2006 would be what he was remembered for with his career - and that would have been tragic cos HHH squashed him when he should have put him over.

But with RVD I see it differently - I never rated RVD that highly - he was dangerous and did not draw. I did not mind seeing HHH squash him. He was overrated.

 

[Greg4WWE]

HHH was ok, but IMO was never a main event talent. 1 or 2 title reigns should have been it. 13 is ridiculous.
But to answer question. Even though he won the title, Y2J is a big one. Not sure he ever beat Hunter one on one. Also guys like Eugene that could have been big if he could have just beaten HHH once. Eugene was a stupid character, but the fans were behind him big time.
RVD is a major one.

 

[SSJPhenom]

You guys are talking about the early 2000's. How about after the brand split and beyond? Do you know who was really the worst/most buried by Trips? Randy Orton.

Orton wins the title, CLEAN, off of Benoit at Summer Slam. The next night on Raw, he got one of the best crowd responses anyone had gotten in a while. Then, when Trips and Evolution kicked him out and he started his feud with Trips, he was far and away the hottest face in the company. This is mid-late 2004. Come around one year later and Orton is on Smackdown. Yea he was in a pretty hot feud with 'Taker but he wasn't anywhere near the Championship picture.

Some say Orton wasn't ready and was immature and a handful backstage at this time and he may have been; however, he was definitely mega over going into his feud with Trips and had he won that feud, he would've stayed that way. I mean, it wasn't until 2007 when Orton would win his next Championship. That may have a lot to do with Orton himself, but Trips has to take some of that onus too.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Scott Hall made a return to the WWE along with his initial nWo allies Hollywood Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash in early 2002, almost a year after WCW had folded as a wrestling promotion (but not really, because WCW was more of a TV show). Before WWF contemplated seeking interest in bringing aboard Sting, Goldberg and Ric Flair, they were sort of hesitant to bring back Hogan and Nash, while being super wary of bringing back Hall, Hennig and Scott Steiner with zero interest in bringing back Luger, Savage, Sid, Jarrett and Rick Steiner. Thus, WWF wound up with DDP, Booker, Bagwell, Kanyon, Kidman, Chavo, Torrie, Stacy, Hurricane and many others plus some several ECW alumni thrown in to the mix.

Making their debut at the 2002 No Way Out PPV; Hogan, Nash and Hall all made their return to the WWF on-screen after a certain amount of years absence. Hogan returned to the WWF for the first time since being put out to pasture by Yokozuna in 1993 at King Of The Ring, Nash and Hall returned for the first time since their controversial and infamous exit at a 1996 WWF house show dubbed The Curtain Call, which saw Shawn Michaels (face), Razor Ramon (face), Hunter Hearst Helmsley (heel) and Diesel (heel) group hug each other because Hall and Nash were off to WCW, Michaels was the WWF World Champion at the time so he couldn't be blamed, and HHH took all the heat for the incident.

However, the nWo didn't last long in the WWF as Hogan became a face at WrestleMania X8 vs The Rock, Hall took part in the infamous Plane Ride from Hell during Raw's overseas tour to the U.K. for Raw's exclusive Insurrextion PPV and Nash became plagued with two serious injuries, first being the torn biceps tendon and his most notable injury of all, a torn quadricep after being rushed back into action too soon after needing more time to heal from his bicep injury, and a year later Nash would be HHH's burial victim in his Reign Of Terror along with Goldberg, Booker T, Steiner, Kane and RVD.

What if Scott Hall didn't succumb to his personal issues with his alcoholism during the brief time he was back in the WWF in early 2002, and if he made it to the 2003 season as a member of the recently-renamed WWE, would Hall have been treated like another HHH burial victim? I don't think Hall cared that much about winning or losing, so long as he was paid hefty amounts of money (not the megastar money kind) and he was already long since been a veteran wrestler who paid his dues and is really above worrying about wins-losses like Bret had a nasty habit of doing, which costed Hitman in the end.

 

[johnbragg]

If Scott HAll had managed to keep it together, I'm sure that he would have been fed to HHH in 2003. And HHH would have thoroughly ruined him, exposing him to the audience as a drug-addled failure who had wasted his career with drugs and lack of work ethic; a mid-carder who built an entire career on an Al Pacino impression; the only Kliq/original NWO member to never win a World title besides X-Pac.

(That's not my 100% fair evaluation of Scott HAll, although it's not wrong. It's just the index card notes for HHH's promo completely burying him. So HHH would have ruined Hall in 2003 if Hall hadn't already ruined himself by 2002.)

 

[Makaveli31]

Hall would have had a role similar to Curt Hennig's when he returned in 2002. He would be used to put the younger guys over. I don't think Vince had any big plans for Scott Hall. The years of drug and alcohol abuse had taken their toll. He could survive on the Indy scene or in Japan but not under the bright lights of WWE. Vince even mentions that Hall was a "shell" of himself upon his return to WWE not only personally but in the ring as well.

I would have liked to see him tag team with Curt Hennig in 2002. I think that would've been cool to see those two come full circle as Curt was the one who broke Scott in. But there were no big plans for Scott Hall upon his return to WWE in 2002 and when the NWO fizzled out and Hogan turned face there was no reason to keep him around especially with him being the big liability he was at the time.

 

[Rulk25]

Curious about Rick...the others akk had problems in the past but I wasnt unaware of any on Rick's part...was it issues or just the fact that without his brother they saw no potential in him?

with zero interest in bringing back Luger, Savage, Sid, Jarrett and Rick Steiner. .

 

[relentless1]

Had Hall come back and been able to last surely the nWo would have as well, we could've seen HHH vs Hall as early as Summerslam 2002

 

[FromGlasgow]

I think if Scott Hall had of stayed sober over his whole career he would have been one of the biggest name wrestlers of all time as well as a multi time world champion, I think he had everything back in the day, The look, The size, The skill and could talk too.
by 2002 I think the damage had been done I couldn't see any long term plans other than bringing him in with Hogan and Nash for their NWO storyline for the Wrestlemania.

 

[johnbragg]

I don't think it's the biggest victim, but it should have been mentioned-- SmackDown. The whole show. By extension, the whole brand split Volume I.

In the first years of the brand extension, the idea was that Raw and SmackDown were supposed to be equal competitors. A show with Kurt Angle, Undertaker, Hulk Hogan and Stephanie McMahon, with the rising star and the real WWE Champion Brock Lesnar doesn't look like a B show, even if it was taped 48 hours ago.


Going into the 2004 draft, SmackDown had just lost Brock LEsnar, Kurt Angle had what was supposed to be a career-ending injury. Hogan was long gone. WWE set up a "draft lottery" to move talent between Raw and Smackdown. So Smackdown was going to get some help, right? Smackdown was going to get--Triple H! The Game! (Which would also give RAW a break from HHH, which would have been nice.)

Then Thursday Smackdown comes around, and HHH was "traded back to RAW". Which meant, to the fans, that HHH had used his backstage power to avoid getting sent to the "B-show." After all, HHH gets whatever he wants, and he must not want to be on Smackdown.

OK, this is a little bit paranoid.

 

[LBGetBack]

I think Y2J Chris Jericho is up there with Booker T. With Y2J - he was screwed in that angle where he pinned HHH and won the WWF title and then HHH made the ref reverse the decision in April 2000. It was poor booking really. But then the HHH vs Jericho feud between Rumble 2002 and WM18 was SO bad it was ridiculous. However, I have read Y2J actually take the blame for this as he had creative input in to this story line. The way that it was presented as HHH V Stephanie ruined it.

Then there was Booker T in 2003 - awful story-line and squashed like a bug by HHH. If it wasn't for his King Booker run Booker T's WWE run between 2003 and 2006 would be what he was remembered for with his career - and that would have been tragic cos HHH squashed him when he should have put him over.

But with RVD I see it differently - I never rated RVD that highly - he was dangerous and did not draw. I did not mind seeing HHH squash him. He was overrated.

Jericho pitched an angle where he was banging Stephanie and was completely pussy-whipped. As Jericho put it (don't remember his exact words) they instead made his character "pussy-whipped without actually getting the pussy".

 

[Bernkastel]

None of them were better options to hold the belt than Trips at the time. Haitch was by far in away RAW's top star, and really WWE's top star, from '03 to '05. Kane, RVD, Jericho, Booker T, Scott Steiner... none of them would have made better champions than Triple H. And the guy that he did put over eventually, Batista, ended up being a bigger star than all of them anyway. So none of them were really "victims." That would be like saying that Triple H buried everyone because none of his rivals were better at holding the title than he was. Triple H had big shoes to fill anyways with the departure of Austin and later the Rock at the time. And I think he did a pretty damn good job at holding the ship together until Cena and Batista could take the wheel.

 

[rmp0012002]

Jericho might have been screwed by HHH a one point but it didn't derail his career. He's held more titles in the WWE during his time there than anyone.

 

[OYDK]

None of them were better options to hold the belt than Trips at the time. Haitch was by far in away RAW's top star, and really WWE's top star, from '03 to '05. Kane, RVD, Jericho, Booker T, Scott Steiner... none of them would have made better champions than Triple H. And the guy that he did put over eventually, Batista, ended up being a bigger star than all of them anyway. So none of them were really "victims." That would be like saying that Triple H buried everyone because none of his rivals were better at holding the title than he was. Triple H had big shoes to fill anyways with the departure of Austin and later the Rock at the time. And I think he did a pretty damn good job at holding the ship together until Cena and Batista could take the wheel.

One could argue the reason that Batista became a bigger star than the others mentioned is because HHH put him over. Had he not done that, who's to say he would have risen to the heights he did? Consequently, who's to say that Jericho or Booker or Kane wouldn't have been bigger stars had they not gotten the rub when they needed it?

I happen to agree that HHH did a spectacular job in carrying the burden after Austin and Rock left, but he he didn't need to dominate the way he did. Dropping the strap to HBK, Goldberg, and Benoit did little to build newer main event level talent. All the guys mentioned eventually got there, but it took them an extra 3-5 years.

 

[johnbragg]

None of them were better options to hold the belt than Trips at the time. Haitch was by far in away RAW's top star, and really WWE's top star, from '03 to '05. Kane, RVD, Jericho, Booker T, Scott Steiner... none of them would have made better champions than Triple H.

That's not the point though. The point is that, due to Triple H's influence on booking and the way he ran his character, each of them saw their star power diminished in their feuds with HHH. Kane and Booker T were former World Champions, booked as legitimate main eventers before their feuds with HHH. After their feuds with HHH, they weren't main eventers. Jericho was on a par with Kurt Angle, feuded with the Rock over the WCW World title before becoming the first Undisputed Champion.

And the guy that he did put over eventually, Batista, ended up being a bigger star than all of them anyway.

How is Batista a bigger star than Jericho? (At least before Guardians of the Galaxy?) Or than Booker T/"King Booker"?

So none of them were really "victims." That would be like saying that Triple H buried everyone because none of his rivals were better at holding the title than he was.

No, he buried everyone because his feuds seriously damaged their credibility as main event stars.

Triple H had big shoes to fill anyways with the departure of Austin and later the Rock at the time. And I think he did a pretty damn good job at holding the ship together until Cena and Batista could take the wheel.

That's the worst possible case for Triple H. Ratings went down steadily during this time period. Check Gerweck.net. Ratings go down from 2002 to 2003 to 2004, then up a bit for 2005 when HHH *finally* puts someone over.

Now that's not all HHH's fault. But it's hard to make the case for HHH based on RAW's ratings.