Who is your favorite Submission Specialist of all time?

[thrilla11]

*I don't know if this has been discussed before, so if it has, I apologize.

I was watching the funniest moments of Kurt Angle on youtube and I caught a segment with Chris Benoit. I forgot these two were even in a tag team and it got me thinking as to who was the better submission specialist. I chose Chris Benoit over Angle because Benoit really worked on the back and head area before he applied the Crossface which, in my opinion, is the more effective submission special when compared to the the Angle/ Ankle Lock.

Here is a definition of a "submission specialist" that i found online to those that need it: http://www.wrestlingexposed.com/columns/posts/692.shtml

In a “sport” where there are so many ways to win, including pin fall, knock-out, count-out, and disqualification, the idea of forcing an opponent to give up because they can no longer endure the pain you’re dishing out is a powerful road to victory. Submissions can come from a variety of attacks but a strong game plan for the submission specialist, that wrestler who has perfected a favorite finishing maneuver, is to single out a specific body part and beat it mercilessly so that it’s aching and throbbing before the submission move is ever applied. Then, when the aggressor swoops in for the kill, the targeted limb is primed and ready for the final, debilitating, incredibly painful hold that will end the match.

There have been many submission specialists and many of them are legends. These are the likes of Ric Flair and his figure four leg lock, Brett Hart and the famous Sharpshooter as well as Dean Malenko and the Texas Cloverleaf. More recent specialists include the aforementioned Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit as well as Chris Jericho with his Liontamer, the NXT Rookie Daniel Bryan and his Cattle Mutilation and Samoa Joe with the rear naked choke that he calls the Coquina Clutch.

So I wanted to ask all the fans out there who enjoy watching wrestlers tap out, two questions: 1)Who is YOUR favorite submission specialist of all time? and also 2)As the title says, Who is the BEST Submission Specialist of all time?

* For those who miss the days of submission matches here's a video I found ranking the top 50 wrestling submissions holds. There are a lot of holds that are unique and are only seen in Japan.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9uspxFhK8

 

[Ferbian]

Hmm good question really.

I guess this is gonna have to come down to two people really.

Seeing as I would be picking Kurt Angle, because I've always liked Kurt as a submission guy, even though he's not one of my favorite wrestlers, I still think his submission hold is rather effective, and even though you do put on a good reason for choosing Benoit over Angle because Benoit would work the area that his submission focuses on, you should also remember while the crippler crossface is a tough one to get out of and to get to the ropes with because of your one hand being locked into the submission, it's also a hard one to adjust yourself with if you want to move the guy away from the ropes (now you could argue that John Cena does it successfully by breaking the hold, moving back, and slapping it on again) but Angle has a much much better way of moving backwards to get them into the position in the middle of the ring once more.

On the other hand, Bret Hart (yes I'm picking two here, cause it's hard to decide) only really has/had the sharpshooter finisher for the most of his career, which definitely puts him in the position, and seeing with the same as Chris Benoit he worked area's he worked the body and was a great wrestler when it came to targeting body parts and slowly dissecting them before he would put on the Sharpshooter, and again with the thing about the sharpshooter as opposed to the angle lock, it's a tough one to really move back into the middle of the ring again (while you could again argue that Chris Jericho and Bret have both done this nicely in the past, I still have to admit it's a tough one, especially cause you can't just "slap it back on")

Other honorary mentions would of course have to be Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho, Benoit I have covered, but Chris Jericho, while I don't find him to be my favorite submission specialist, also taking into consideration that his finisher is a harder one to put on, a hard one to maintain in the middle of the ring, and seemingly not always effective with the walls of Jericho as opposed to what the success of a Liontamer would probably have been.

 

[To Be The Man]

Really good question and let me add by saying that I really miss the submission finishing manuevers as we don't see a lot of them now.

As for my favorite submission specialist of all times, I could name a ton but I have to say that I was always partial to Perry Saturn and the Rings of Saturn because of Perry's facial expression when he put it on and the way he really torqued the other guys arm/shoulder around. A close second would be the man of a thousand holds Dean Malenko.

As far as the best submission specialist of all time I would have to give the nod to Bret Hart and the Sharpshooter just because it was booked as a finishing manuever and people rarely tapped to it unlike now, for example, Angle locks in a ankle lock and the other person escapes and then Angle wins with an Olympic Slam.

Honorable mentions definetly go to Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, and Chris Jericho, although I prefer the Lion Tamer over the Walls because of the positioning of the head and neck in the Lion Tamer.

 

[The Roid Rage]

In this case I would have to say that the best and my favorite are the same in Bret Hart. I think the sharpshooter is the best submission ever, and no one does it better than the Hitman himself. I like the Walls of Jericho a lot too, I've always liked the Boston Crab since I first saw Rick "The Model" Martel do the move as a kid. I just always thought "Damn, that looks like it hurts a lot". Dean Malenko is another favorite, I always thought "Man of 1000 holds" sounded pretty serious, and this guy looked the part. His Texas cloverleaf which is similar to the sharpshooter always looked like a legit move to me as well. The submission I think is the worst however would be John Cena's STFU. That is the most unconvincing move I have ever seen. You can clearly see every time that he isn't really doing much to them, and that they could easily get out of it no problem.

 

[acstylez]

1. Doink The Clown. He was entertaining, with the practical jokes. He maid the people deffenently angry. Even though he was a clown his charecture his gimmick makes great since he was an evil clown. Plus to make it even better he could out wrestle neerly anybody and didn't do that slow baoring style that many other did.

 

[herbsAAc]

Well besides The hitman or Flair.. One that you guys all have skipped over with no respect yet pawning over boring no sell wrestlers from ROH... TAZZ.. the kahtejihateme(sp) or tazmission was the best out of anyone.. I saw a mention of Samoa Joe which is just shameful as he is so boring and uncharasmatic in the ring he only gained notoriety in my book when tazz was in his corner and gave him the blessing to completely imitate his character(which is what he was doing but in such a boring way it was disgraceful.. "joes gonna kill you" being said by an audience told what to cheer on the big screens is so lame I HATE TNA AND THEIR TELEVISION STUDIO.. EXPOSES HOW FAKE WRESTLING IS) anywaYS.. tazz ended kurt angles undefeated streak and beat countless opponents in EC-DUB with that move..

I am not an ECW fan boy and my respect for the once great company has gone down majorly after the amount of jumping on the bandwagon the ecw fans and fans of the attitude era who hate on Cena even though he is what is keeping the WWE on TV..(there are barely any other draws on that show besides UT Jericho and Orton(dont get me started on flabby HHH and "it took me 8 years to learn to cut a promo" Batista)

Until the attitude era fans can realize that what vince is doing with the PG rating which is to gain fans ages 8-14 with new wrestlers rather than all these old guys from our days of wrestling 97-2005.. Cena will stay on top.. Until older people start buying into other wrestlers ad buying their merchandise(thats how they decide who is a top draw or heavyweight champ by who sells the most merchandise)

But anyways.. 1.Tazz 2.Flair 3.Hart(owen and bret) 4.Benoit 5. Saturn(3 of 5 started as ec dub guys.. weeeeird)

 

[Ubiquitous]

1. Doink The Clown. He was entertaining, with the practical jokes. He maid the people deffenently angry. Even though he was a clown his charecture his gimmick makes great since he was an evil clown. Plus to make it even better he could out wrestle neerly anybody and didn't do that slow baoring style that many other did.

I just had to come out of my lurking mode for this. And I speak for the whole forum when I say...


WHAT?!

Are you slow or purposely being stupid to hurt my head? I can't even believe this post was physically made and submitted onto this forum. This post makes me distrust the ability of man to survive for another thousand years...


Anyway, my vote goes to the crippler crossface. This move alone gives the win to Benoit, even though he could effectively and convincingly apply other submissions like the sharpshooter. It's alot more complicated than it looks too. If it's applied properly, it's almost an armbar and a crossface, as the arm is SUPPOSED to be twisted before it's put between the legs, as that creates more torque on the neck when it's applied. I know benoit didn't ALWAYS use it like this, but it hurts like fuck. + 1 Benoit.

 

[Max Moon]

So I respect all of your opinions, but I feel like the most logical option in "the man of 1000 holds" Dean Malenko. His persona consisted of being able to beat you from any position with submissions. He had epic matches with Eddie and Jericho, which proved how great he was/ they all were. His matches with Regal were unreal. He kept attention of the casual fan without the flash of a gimmicky move, or a super-destroy-em power move. He's the best on my opinion.

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

Bret "The Hitman" Hart - he is the best wrestler ever in my opinion. His style worked against everyone. He was technical but exciting which alot technical wrestlers are not. Plus the sharpshooter is the best submission finisher in the business for me. The excitement when he finally locked in that sharpshooter was amazing. Kurt angle is a very close second because he was also a wrestler who could have great matches with everyone. He was very technical but he could also excite in different ways. Bret vs. Angle is a match I would love to see, in my opinion it would have probably been the greatest match ever.

 

[Next/CK]

The nature boy ric flair the best heel wrestling has ever seen. Puting away the biggest stars in the game down with the best signiture move there ever was with great catch phrase WOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! We also cant forget kiss stealin wealin dealin son of a gun. But we all saw it and at wrestlemania 24. Well i saw it live thank u very much but that doesnt matter. It all came to an end and then it started again about a year later in TNA goodnight.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Bret Hart hands down!

He had em all...

Sharpshooter, who locked it on better than him

Sleeper Hold
Dragon Sleeper
Figure 4 leg lock

During his matches, you could always see him lock on a submission hold.

A great submission and technical specialist.

 

[Attitude_Raven]

i have 5 obvious choices:

1- Ken Shamrock
2- Goldberg
3- Kurt Angle
4- Tazz
5- Samoa Joe

the reason is obvious, all of them made their holds look really painful to the fan watching, just as if they were in an MMA fight (well, Shamrock allways was an MMA pro, and the rest obviously had some MMA training).

 

[Megatron]

Anyone who says Angle probably needs to look up the definition of 'Submission Specialist' tbh. There's a significant difference between 'Submission Specialist' and 'Man who has a submission as a finisher.' Kurt Angle is FAR from a submission specialist. Sure, he has a submission finisher, but honestly, how many times has he won a match with the Ankle Lock in the past 3-4 years? It clearly isn't much. The Ankle Lock just sets him up for his other finisher, the Angle Slam. You rarely see Angle even try for the Ankle Lock in matches anymore, it seems.

Guys like Bret Hart, Dean Malenko, and Chris Benoit, on the otherhand, were undoubtedly Submission Specialists. How many times have we seen someone tap out to the Sharpshooter or Crippler Crossface? I'd bet money that it is five times the amount that we've seen someone tap out to the Ankle Lock. Benoit was always trying to lock in the Crossface or set up for it, and Hart the same. If I had to chose, I would probably say that Benoit was the greatest submission specialist ever, but Hart comes damn close. Angle, however, should be away from the top 5 of everybody's list.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Bret Hart. He had two submission holds I absolutely loved. The Sharpshooter is probably the most successful submission hold, used by a face, in the last 25 years. He put away a lot big names with that hold. The reason I liked Bret's use of this hold so much was due to the fact that he didn't have another finisher to go along with it. He was confident enough to basically say he was going to make you tap. He use roll-ups and things like that to get quick pinfalls, but he mainly relied upon the Sharpshooter.

I also really enjoyed his use of the ring-post figure four. It didn't win him any matches, but it was great to watch. As a heel, Bret used this time and time again to punish people he hated.

Honorable mentions:
Chris Benoit
Bob Backlund
Dean Malenko
Ric Flair
Kurt Angle

 

[Davi323]

When I think of a submission, the first thing that always pops into my head, without thinking about it, is the Crippler Crossface. That alone might be enough for me to select Chris Benoit as the best submission specialist, but that isn't the whole story. Benoit is the best submission guy NOT because of the crossface, but because he had a huge arsenal of other submissions too. The crossface was his primary one, certainly. But he could put on any number of other submissions too. He wasn't a one trick pony. The entire catalog of submission moves was game in a Benoit match.

 

[acstylez]

No I'm not. My point is that not anly was he a good submission specailist, that he wasn't being slow and repetitive. Part of being a wrestler is to give the fans they'er money's worth. 10 minuets of head-locks is not entertaining. You maid a good point that I didn't wlaborate but your disrespectful remarks were a bit much, but I'm going to watch my mouth. Please have a nice day and try to be respectful with your post from now on.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Oh, definitely the Undertaker. He'd bash out a Hell's Gate or a Triangle Coke or a Dragon Sleeper like a man possessed!

See, as stupid as that is, at least it was relevant unlike that Doink post earlier. Seriously, wtf?

For me, it would have to Benoit. I know a lot of you have already mentioned how he'd target body areas etc, but you're not doing him justice. This guy used to do a diving headbutt every night and he'd hit the shoulder every night, whether just falling due to gravity or flying across the ring, his head, would hit his opponents shoulder. High angle belly to back suplexex, shoulder breakers and a ravenous persona that seriously made you believe that when he locked on that Crippler Crossface, he was trying to wrench his opponents head off.

Props to 'To Be The Man' for the Perry Saturn mention.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Anyone who says Angle probably needs to look up the definition of 'Submission Specialist' tbh. There's a significant difference between 'Submission Specialist' and 'Man who has a submission as a finisher.' Kurt Angle is FAR from a submission specialist. Sure, he has a submission finisher, but honestly, how many times has he won a match with the Ankle Lock in the past 3-4 years? It clearly isn't much. The Ankle Lock just sets him up for his other finisher, the Angle Slam. You rarely see Angle even try for the Ankle Lock in matches anymore, it seems.

....so Jericho isn't a "Submission Specialist" either? Or Eddie Guerrero wasn't in your opinion? Both had a finisher or signature that made people tap ( Walls of Jericho and Lasso From El Passo) yet neither stay in that submission mode. We can consider them "Submission Specialist" because they are or were technical wrestlers who resorted to submission holds to put a world of pain on their opponents. Kurt Angle is no different than either one of them, except he is more Greco-Roman than the other two (which can be contributed as a Submission Specialist since that's what G-R is).

My pick is definitely Eddie Guerrero, who early in his career carried the torch for Submissioneers along with Malenko and Benoit. Check out his ECW-to-WCW stuff and you will know what I mean. He had moves that legitimately looked like it hurt his opponent, and like I already mentioned that Lasso From El Passo was no joke either; shame he didn't use it up till the time he passed on.

Perhaps it was removed on the grounds that it legitimately injured opponents like Jericho's Lion Tamer? Who knows..

 

[BWEEZY2009]

Seen it earlier and I have to agree!

Dean Malenko

I was always a big fan of the Texas Cloverleaf!

Also I've always been a big fan of wrestlers that spend the majority of the matches "softening" up the body part in which the finishing submission is executed on. I feel it tells a great story and bring in the psych

 

[Justin Satiable]

The Radicalz. They each had a submission move of their own, and while all of them may not have been submission specialists, it was enough to keep me anticipated, waiting for that hold to slapped in.

Oh, and, of course, I was a massive Bret Hart fan. Always loved the Sharpshooter.

 

[Remix]

Benoit. I'm going with him because quite frankly I've never enjoyed watching someone tap out more than when Benoit applies the crossface. It's not just the hold though, though it is awesome, it's Benoit's mannerisms as he applies it, screaming for his opponent to tap and how he works over the area before slapping it on. The man took a hold, made it his own and then based his wrestling around it.

Not to mention that he's got other credible holds too. He's made Angle tap out to an armbar (which isn't sometihng you see every day in pro wrestling) and has a secondary submission finisher in the sharpshooter. The man was all about beating you senseless and then making you tap the fuck out.

Honourable mentions go to Angle, Hart, Flair and Regal.