Which will ultimately be the bigger embarrassment to ECW?

[shattered dreams]

What is to elaborate? TNA fans always claim that the WWE sucks because they can't "wrestle". Yet, Shattered dreams is using that same argument, that ECW wrestlers really couldn't wrestle, as a POSITIVE, or at least being a neutral position. If it doesn't matter that ECW wrestlers sucked, why does it matter than WWE wrestlers supposedly suck too? It was fairly self-explanatory.

I definitely did not say it was a positive. What I was pointing out is that people saying this will not work simply because the guys cannot wrestle are missing that it used to work even though they could not wrestle. So who is to say much has really changed? Sandman can still cane someone and drink a beer and that is all it takes for a one-off nostalgia show. We are talking about one tribute show where nostalgia can carry a match. A new ECW where Sandman would wrestle every week would be a terrible terrible idea.

I would also like to point out that I absolutely do think there were plenty of good workers and matches in ECW. I think Tenta confused my comments about this card with all of the original ECW. Elsewhere I have often said the same things he and others have said here about ECW having quality performers. Heyman was genius to promote the luchadors and quality technical wrestling matches as a foil to his hardcore normalcy.

You just proved my point. The older WWE wrestlers actually RETIRE. They leave the company....and TNA then signs them, once they are well over the hill and can't wrestle worth a damn anymore.

Yep, Pope, Anderson, Angle, Hardy, Morgan, RVD. None of those guys can wrestle worth a damn anymore When did Taker or Kane retire? When did TNA sign HBK? Didn't WWE sign Bret Hart? Of course he can wrestle worth a damn now

 

[EffinSaySo]

My statement about the production of new stars is absolutely true. If you had read my post properly, you would have noticed that I said that a lot of the ECW alumni went on to have stellar careers ELSEWHERE. Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Steve Austin, Rey Mysterio, come on, surely you are not suggesting that ECW made them into the stars they became, because that wouldn't be incorrect, that would be downright delusional. Several of these guys became stars because of WCW, not ECW, and their true rise to superstardom was because of WWF/WWE, not due to WCW or ECW. That would be like saying Alex Rodriguez became the MLB superstar that he is because of his days playing A, AA, or even AAA ball.

Sure, ECW was more than tables, chairs, and weapons. It was thumbtacks and unnecessary blood too. Let's face it, without the "holy shit" factor from the gimmicky stunts they did, ECW would have been nothing. Because it was hardly a wrestling clinic, I'll assure you of that.

And you know, I don't think Vince McMahon ever promised that WWECW would be a throwback to the vintage days of ECW. Those days were dead and gone back then, never mind now. It's a shame that your view of ECW was so inflated and romanticized, because guess what, it really wasn't that special in the first place. And it will be worse now.

If WWECW was an insult to the original ECW, I truly believe that Hardcore Justice will be heartbreaking for someone like yourself. Because it will be bad, but with an additional 5-10 years if irrelevance thrown in there as well.

A comment to "...vintage days of Ecw. Those days were dead and gone back then"... You are damn right. People arguing that Vince McMahon shitted on the legacy of a promotion that went defunct (la la la, la la la la, hey hey heyman, goodbye) is asinine. What i remember of this ECW legacy is that they never made it past a bankruptcy court. Instead of blaming Vince K. McMahon, blame the individual who couldn't keep that ship afloat...the one who handed over the keys to the ship (ECW - which sank in 2001 - yet the rights and video library cha-ching) to Vince Kennedy McMahon (so he could plunder it of its value...oh wait, why couldn't Pauley Has A Cracker do it himself / someone smash him with a lightbulb)....the one who gets all the credit for that engine that made ECW fanatics but remember, he's the guy who would book an angle that shitted over the NWA World Heavyweight Title (wow... the longest reigning title in professional wrestling) the same way misfortunes (FOLD) shitted on that ECW franchise (karma). The one who couldn't even pay his damn WORKERS (government bailout anyone?), what a nice guy. The original ECW formula that had to put themselves on a leash on TNN and ultimately had to be put down in 2000. What makes them (E C DUB E C DUB) think Vince Kennedy McMahon going to follow that same formula? Why should he market to the group of fans that were clearly #3 in the Monday Night Wars poll? (And that gap between #2 and #3 was bigger than what's between Aurora Snow legs.)

If those fans wanted to protect their precious E C DUBYA, maybe they should have put their money altogether and outbidded VKM back then. Oh wait, that didn't happened. And guess who made money off that name...the man still standing. While you can have the memories of E C DUBYA, VKM will continue running his promotion to peaks and valley rather than crashing (WCW/ECW) into it.

 

[psykohurricane]

I can't really say which will be the biggest embarrassment until i watch the PPV later this week but i'm really not sold on this reunion PPV.

Like it or not, The original ECW was a developpment territory for the WWE and indirectly for WCW. I say indirectly because most of the big star from ECW all at one point or another sign with WCW. WWE was paying ECW to use it went they didn't know what to do with a wrestler. So that no secret that while ECW had a cult following, The only reason it stay alive as long as it did was because vince was helping Heyman out on the financial front and in exchange Heyman let Vince send some of his low card and mid card talent that he didn'T know what to do with to ECW.


When Vince brought ECW for a reunion show back in 2005, it was for money because the 2 ECW compilations DVD sold better then any other WWE DVD that year and he saw their was money to be made with it and looking at it 5 years later, it's still one of the best PPV WWE ever produce. The next year ECW was brought back again and this time to stay and while the original ECW would never be recreate and i was glad it wasn't, i still had the same mentality especially in the end, which was to take unknown wrestlers and make them ready to become superstars. If it wasn't for WWECW, guys like Sheamus, The Miz, John Morrisson, C.M Punk and Jack Swagger wouldn'T were they are today. These and other like them all made their mark in the new ECW and except for Miz, all were ECW Champion at one point which.

In a way, The new ECW was really great to watch mostly because you had the chance to see guys, that normally would get a chance to be on t.v. Just look at Evan Bourne, when he was on ECW, the guys would look like a main event star every week, now look were he is, same goes for Yoshi Tatsu.

Now TNA is bringing ECW as EV 2.0, which mostly guys that they still have under contract and don't know what to do with them, if you look at the list of guys they have confirmed as of today, they are still missing some of the most important element of the original ECW. The Sandman Should have been the first guy not under contract to be confirm for the PPV, he pretty much the centerpiece of ECW with Tommy Dreamer. Paul Heyman should be there but unless Dixie caves in to his demands, i doubt i will show up. Joey Styles should be there but because he's still under contract with WWE he's not going to show up.

But the biggest problem that this ppv is missing is the Arena, this PPV should have been held either at the ECW Arena or the Hammerstein Ballroom not the IMPACT Zone in orlando. Another problem is the lack of promotion, it might have work back but now a day, the fans want to know what they are getting before for their 35$. Only 2 matches were announce for the PPV just like When WWE try to do a WWECW with December To Dismember and you all remember how much of a mess that PPV became and it was also the reason behind Heyman leaving the company.

So i really hope that they prove me wrong and that the EV 2.0 guys don't tarnish the legacy of the original ECW with this show but the fact that so many former ECW performers turned them down isn't a good sign. I wish Tommy Dreamer good luck for sunday and i hope WWE doesn'T try to stop the show on sunday.

 

[Samurai Executioner]

Honestly I don't understand why you want to argue on this topic. Its obvious to me that some of the wrestlers who have agreed to do the show even though their body MAY not permit is to earn some money. Let them put their bodies on the line if they are willing to take the risks. Its not going to be in the same level as ECW ONS 2005 or 2006 but it cant draw less than TNA PPVs now can it

TNA wants to try anything and everything they can to attract some more viewers and who knows may be finally they will get the kick start they were looking for.

 

[One to Remember]

This month, a lot of past it wrestlers who were never exactly the embodiment of health in the first place will drag themselves into the ring for some sort of tribute show. I can't be the only person who thinks, some 5 years after One Night Stand, this is all but certain to be abysmal.

What the hell in this sport even constitutes over the hill? I mean it seems like accusations of being past one's prime is the top slur to go with in this sport. And if they are all on par with each other where is your point of reference even coming from? Seventy percent of the people who routinely bring up seed and mobility as a pot shot probably also cheer the aging Undertaker, Kane, Trips, and HBK. They probably also said Flair had a great match at WM. And how do you if theyhaven't gotten back in shape? Boxers do it, Favre did it, Jim Jeffries tried it, Foreman did it. Why don't you from here on out but the wrestlers age right behind their names? Tajiri isn't too rusty, Raven is probably stillon the indies, When i was born Funk was old, when he was atthe first ECW ppv funk was old, when he first captured the ECW title he was younger but still old, RVD is not rusty, Dreamer is not too rusty, Lynn still works, the Dudleys still work, Foley still works, Snuka still works and none of you blasted him in 1992 for being old when he became ECW's inaugral champ, the examples go on.

What most die-hard ECW fans failed to realize was that ECW the series was intended not to be anything like the original. What the ECW of the past three years did was create stars to put on RAW and Smackdown and they did a good job of that. I believe this ECW invasion will be more of a embarrassment because all of the guys are past their prime and they haven't meant anything for a decade and the fans will just see them as damaging their ECW legacy.

I don't believe that, the ECW fan's only crime wastaking at face value a promise made by a then 62 year old going on 8. You could argue that Smackdown! is used to create Raw stars buti guess thats a taboo topic.

If the shows sole purpose is not to be too E-C-Dubbish why call it ECW when you have the option of televising OVW, FCW, or whoever he chooses to deal with? How can the show be intended to be ECW and not ECW at the same time? Isn't that called a bait and switch

Lots of things are getting new leases on life due to free media. Do the new episodes of Family Guy damage the 1999-2002 run? Futurama diddn't mean anything 8 years ago and went on hiatus for nearly a decade yet here t is back.

This is an easy one for me. Hardcore Justice will be far more of an abomination than WWECW on SyFy ever was.

I was never big on the original ECW in the first place. Sure, it did produce a lot of wrestlers who went on (elsewhere) to have stellar careers. It had its hardcore, cult-like band of followers, and it had the mind of the over-rated Paul Heyman, but when it came right down to it, it was merely shock TV. Flaming tables, barbed wire, thumbtacks, and all of that fun stuff, but not a lot of talent on display, on a station that had a very small audience. And you act as if ECW gys only became wrestlers after they went to WCW or the WWF. Its not like WCW took ECW guys then WCW-ized them in the power plant and then they had skills. They either had them upon debut or learned them soo after. Malenko and Eddie were the same Malenko and Eddie in WCW and the WWF. Theres no transformation upon leaving ECW.

What was ECW before Douglas threw down the NWA belt? I don'tthink Eastern was all that EXTREEEEEEEME yet it was strong and dd well. We know this obviously because the NWA took its title there and begin trying to to play a direct role there. We know that ECW existed before it was extreme..

[qoute]One Night Stand in 2005 was a fitting tribute to it, and was a great PPV. Payed homage to the hardcore guys back when they were only 10 years removed from relevance.

WWECW did nothing to pay tribute to the original ECW. It wasn't hard core. It wasn't as low budget. But it least it did serve a purpose. It did launch the careers of several guys who have gone on to prominence in the WWE. So it was a failure in terms of "living up" to the ECW name, but it did accomplish something.[/quote]


Hardcore Justice will accomplish nothing except drag old fat guys out of the woodwork, but this time 15 years past their time of relevance. It will be a pathetic tribute to guys who refuse to hang up the boots.

Tommy Dreamer will look at this PPV on DVD and think to himself, what was I thinking, and actually be embarrassed to have been a part of it.

[/QUOTE]

Why is there always an attemp to use the term decade or decade in a half here? You think every ECW guy became extreme in 1994? You think 1994 is the start of their careers? Do you think there are no ECW alums from 1995-2001? fURTHEMORE HOW WERE THEY A DECADE PAST noteriety if ECW closed i 2001, ONS was 4 not 5 or as you would say half a decade after the closing and ECW was kept relevent with the Alliance? Where was Rhino even at in 1994? Yet hes 16 years past the pinacle based on your logic.

I'm sure they're people who will look at themselves in a picture from the '90s and think "Why did I ever wear that fanny pack with that starter jacket with a Jordan on my right foot and an L.A. gear on my left?" If its not bad at this moment let Dreamer and the other guys base his choice on this moment.

Now why would any WWE product or brand be hardcore if they themselves are moving away from that? They weren't killing ECW's buzz they just were fasing out the blood and thumbtacks company wide.
Then you say they refuse to hang up their boots as your nxt illogical attack. Who are you to determine when a wrestler must retire? Why should we care that youthink they need to give it up if a criminal court judge couldn't make them stop, their kids couldn't make them stop, the state athletic commision couldn't make them stop, the company might not be able to make them stop, hell even Rick Flair's mom couldn't order him to stop. There is no means, no mechanism that can order a man to stop wrestling. He is free to make a living and you will be paying his ibcome if he does quit wrestling so just kill that argument forever right now. There is nothing in the world that can make a wrestler stop wrestling, its his right.

Yes, a reunion show that hasn't interefered with any of TNA's current storylines..

it has probably confused younger TNA fans though. They probably dont understand why TNA is paying tribute to a company that isn't TNA and would had competed with TNA. Its too off the wall, its like the TNA brass has A.D.D.
This is the best I can say, it makes little sense, its irrelevent to TNA canon, but I would be a hypocrt if i condemned it because even WCW had its Slamboree PPV. WWE has its Hall of Famers not from WWE, THE W/WWF, OR Capitol Wrestling, or even wrestling period. Slamboree featured wrestlers who had nothing to do with WCW although frm WCW's perspective on its lineage, i might be wrong in some context. But hell at least WCW had those beliefs on its origins, TNA could never make any rational argument as to why it has links to ECW. Its not reasonable to assume if TNA had been founded a year prior what remained of the faltering ECW would not had tried to destroy it.

You seriously think that anything good can come out of an ECW reunion show this long after any of them but RVD were relevant? Even Tommy Dreamer was completely irrelevant in WWECW, and you can't even call it ECW!

What is needed to even lose relevence? Why is that same group still able to perform eye of the tiger or Kenny Loggins able to perform the top gun theme so long after it left the charts? If ECW guys in TNA are forgotten how are they known at all? If you brought in ECW guys who were never in TNA or have been low profile people would still know them even if they had not been seen since 2001 on TNN.They are gonna get reaction, 2nd hand reaction, and people are going to do research on theme. The only way to kill ECW is to make ts stars obsolete not irrelevent..

You just proved my point. The older WWE wrestlers actually RETIRE. They leave the company....and TNA then signs them, once they are well over the hill and can't wrestle worth a damn anymore.

we usually dont know why they retired. TNA is the middle road between WWE and the indies. It allows a lighter work sceduel, and you make a reasonable amount of money. Its hard enough telling people early on you wanna wrestle, you know how much credibility you lose when your indie fed paycheck assuming it doesn't bounce is reveled to be? Do you realize that people retire from WWE because they are worn out by WWE and its grueling tours? Mostof the wrestlers are trying to wrestle out of love for the sport and then attempt the difficult task of trying to make it a job that pays bills. All wrestlers have the expectation that they will do the imposible in America, have a job they love. So quit taking WWE releases, WWE retirements, and past links to WWE of certain TNA talent out of context. I feel that is another unfair move used in debating against TNA. Make your criticism legit is all i ask, im not a TNA defender..

Instead of blaming Vince K. McMahon, blame the individual who couldn't keep that ship afloat...the one who handed over the keys to the ship (ECW - which sank in 2001 - yet the rights and video library cha-ching) to Vince Kennedy McMahon (so he could plunder it of its value...oh wait, why couldn't Pauley Has A Cracker do it himself / someone smash him with a lightbulb)....

Paul E.'s fiscal misconduct isn't focused on enough. Buts also annoying to hear WWE fans and McMahon himself strut around as if they killed WCW and ECW. WCW wen't under because it was a subsidiary organization of a conglomerate that both hated wrestling, viewed it as making their networks potentially tacky and low brow, and of course the fact that the former head, Ted Turner who personally made the Jim Crocket Promotions purchase had lost power in some type of internal uprising/takeover. A hatred of wrestling killed WCW, McMahon benefited off of some business suit's contempt for what he and Vince Sr. promoted for a living. ECW went under because Heyman needed a non kayfabe accountant. WWE never took anything other then the AWA down.. But it is always implied that they did.

FURTHERMORE I should note that Heyman did not in fact have the authority to sale any footage or intellectual property from 1992-1996 since HHG Corp. only began using the ECW name in 1996 but did not actually purchase ECW the company from Todd Gordon. This was recognized in Gordon's lawsuit against WWE.

the one who gets all the credit for that engine that made ECW fanatics but remember, he's the guy who would book an angle that shitted over the NWA World Heavyweight Title (wow... the longest reigning title in professional wrestling) the same way misfortunes (FOLD) shitted on that ECW franchise (karma). The one who couldn't even pay his damn WORKERS (government bailout anyone?), what a nice guy. The original ECW formula that had to put themselves on a leash on TNN and ultimately had to be put down in 2000.

EMLL has older titles. The NWA shitted on its self and its own title. TNN put them on a least, no one censors themselves and cable aint as freedom loving as cinemax either. That has nothing to do with the fact that he did not have the legal authority to sale all of ECW to VKM. In fact if Gordon had acted sooner in his lawsuit he probably could had restarted ECW. Check out the court ruling.

What makes them (E C DUB E C DUB) think Vince Kennedy McMahon going to follow that same formula? Why should he market to the group of fans that were clearly #3 in the Monday Night Wars poll? (And that gap between #2 and #3 was bigger than what's between Aurora Snow legs.)

How is Vince McMahon gonna market to any fan base if upon the bait and switch they come upon merely the same pathetic WWE product rife with McMahonerisms? How does he keep them after the jig is up??! Although I watched til the lastNitro if ECW had continued to exist as a sovereign entity then I and millions of other WCW fans would had at the least turned to The Redneck Network to watch ECW at the least to spite the WWF. ECW would had benefited from this exodus.

If those fans wanted to protect their precious E C DUBYA, maybe they should have put their money altogether and outbidded VKM back then. Oh wait, that didn't happened.

Seriously to address that, how many people here do you think understood why ECW was simply not on the air anymore? How many people knew it had went bankrupt and wasn't just shut down by Heyman?!. How many casual fans are looking at federal court dockets expecting to see a defunct wrestling federation?!