Which of these two wrestlers is more important to modern wrestling?

[Shadowmancer]

This is going to be fairly open to discussion but I am going to name two names from the early part of the modern era of Pro Wrestling.

Lou Thesz and Gorgeous George.

I know this will get Gelgarin's attention because he seems to have an almost unhealthy obsession with Lou Thesz.

Now onto the question in and of itself, who is more influential to modern day wrestling? Lou Thesz or Gorgeous George? This is not about who was better in the ring or not, but influence that can be seen in other wrestlers that are wrestling today.

Vs.

I am going to present my case for Gorgeous George because in my mind he is the more influential of the two to modern pro wrestling.

Gorgeous George is the more influential to Modern Pro Wrestling than Lou Thesz because he created the gimmick as a way of elevating yourself to the top of the card, the actual gimmick itself can be seen within three names that have historical significance, "The Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers, "Playboy" Buddy Rose and "the Nature Boy" Ric Flair, that is only within the flamboyance as a character. Other impacts that are seen within modern pro wrestling is that there is music playing, Gorgeous George came to the Ring to "Pomp and Circumstance". There is also the role that Gorgeous George had on American Pop culture, he was a television superstar, You talk about the Superstars of the WWE, well without Gorgeous George there would be no Superstars, he was reviled as a Heel, but he was one of the biggest names in Pro Wrestling at the time because of the gimmick. I would even go as far as to say that without Gorgeous George there would be no Hulk Hogan.

There is a start, now lets see some debate going on.

 

[klunderbunker]

Gorgeous George. Thesz was a hooker. He may be the best in ring wrestler of all time, but his actual influence on wrestling is limited. This is a classic debate that boils down to one thing: what's more important, character or ability? Thesz was great at his job, but dare I say it, he was replacible. You could find a hooker anywhere and they could do what he did if paid enough. George on the other hand invented sports entertainment. he was the first person to have theme music, and he played the nature boy role before anyone else. Muhammad Ali, perhaps the greatest athlete of all time said he was influenced by George. If that doesn't tell you how good George was at his character, I don't know what will. Without George, wrestling is still a traveling carnival act that isn't mainstream. Gorgeous George may be the most important wrestler of all time.

 

[Gelgarin]

I have an almost unhealthy obsession with Lou Thesz?
I put in months of work and I get an allmost.

Anyway, some of what you fellows say in regards to character over ability is true, and if we accept the claim that GG was the first man to use a gimmick to elevate himself and as such "invented sports entertainment", then I'd vote with you guys in a snap.

Unfortunately it's simply not true.

What we have here is a classic case of the exemplar being mistaken for the pioneer. Gorgeous George didn't invent sports entertainment any more than Lou Thesz invented the art of hooking. Both were, during their respective time periods at the top of their respective fields, but neither can truly be said to have leyed the turf.

Sports entertainment was an idea invested by Ed Lewis, during his time as part of the Gold Dust Trio. He pioneered the idea of booking kayfabe feuds between guys, and in doing so created the first main eventers (prior to Lewis's revolutionising of the business, main events hadn't existed and all matches had been one off affairs) and set the wheels in motion for the product we have today.

Similarly, the idea of using a gimmick to get over was probably 'The Wrestling Plasterer' Jim Londos; a relic of the carnival days who supplemented his limited technical ability with a chiseled physique and a habit of coming to the ring wearing overalls. He was doing what George Wagnar did almost 15 years prior to Gorgeous George's conception in Eugene.

Now, if you'll excuse me for a moment, KB has continued his habit of saying things that make me want to bash my head against the wall. In this case,

Without George, wrestling is still a traveling carnival act that isn't mainstream.

George Wagnar debuted in 1932. Jim Londos debuted in 1928 (I think). Jim Londos once drew a crowd of 100,000 fans... whilst traveling abroad. I don't recall Wagnar performing in front of more than 30,000; and that was with the benefit of TV exposure, a longer stay in the business and getting his ass kicked by NWA champion Lou Thesz.

To blow the claim further out of the water, I present exhibit B. Frank Gotch. Despite performing twenty years before the names in question, and despite being a colossal ********; Frank Gotch was able to draw gates of 20-30,000, and was enough of a celebrity to get an invitation to the White House. If your telling me that it was George Wagner who made professional wrestling mainstream then I'm afraid I'll be forced to accuse you of being silly.

Now, I could go on at length about how overrated George Wagner in in the eyes of history, but I don;t want to because I liked the guy, and were he not standing in the doorway between myself and a soliloquy on Lou Thesz then I'm probably be promoting his attributes.

Instead I think I shall go down the path of explaining exactly why Lou Thesz was so significant.

For a start, his word with Rikidozan popularised professional wrestling in Japan. I hear it's still pretty big over there. I've already told the Thesz/Rikid story a couple of times on this forum, and I don't like repeating my tails... so go check out Thes's first match in the archived Legends tournament if your that interested.

He also played a role in popularising the sport in Mexico, but exactly how big a role that was is debatable, and on the off chance somebody shows up who knows something about Mexican wrestling history, I'm not informed enough to argue the case, so we'll gloss over that bit.

In another mildly headbanging moment, KB insinuated that a Lou Thesz substitute could have been easily found, which I will take a moment to refute prior to explaining who this is relevant.

Lou Thesz was the most talented wrestler in the industry. Lou Thesz's job could only have been done but the most talented wrestler in the industry. Being a hooker means nothing it its self. Pro wrestling was full of hookers, catchers, shooters and fucking high guys who used to sit on you until you gave in.

What was special about about Lou Thesz was that he could step into the ring with any of those guys, and reliably break one of their limbs. Thesz was the NWA champion for the most important period in that organisations history. During that time he frequently defended the belt against shooters in front of hostile judges, and would be forced to incapacitate his opponent in order to protect the belt.

Thesz was the lynch pin that held the entire NWA together, and you don't need me to explain how important the NWA was the the development of professional wrestling. Had Thesz not been around, and the NWA been forced to depend of a champion such as Buddy Rogers (one of the top guys around whilst Thesz was off winning some war) then wrestling would never have been able to spread on a national level.

It is well documented that the WWWF was formed when the NWA stripped the title form Rogers, on account of him refusing the travel with the belt. What is less well documented is that fact that Rogers wouldn't travel because he 'knew' he couldn't hold onto the belt in a shoot fight. Without a name like Thesz, the groundworks for a national wrestling promotion would never have been set.

Other areas of Thesz based significant involve pioneering the art of heel psychology inside the ring. Inventing quite a lot of moves (certainly more than Wikipedia credits him with) and being the undisputed, 'biggest name in the history of the business, for a period of time marginally longer than George Wagnar's entire career.

Geogious George was replaceable. Lou Thesz wasn't. And Thesz did for more for the industry. As did Gotch, Lewis and half a dozen other guys. George Wagner was great, but you're seriously overrating his historical significance.

 

[Shadowmancer]

There is a major difference between booking a feud and using a gimmick, Ill give you my reasons for choosing these two for this thread now, they both put emphasis on the two schools of thought that is still in place today, Wrestling being more important or Gimmick, this is pretty much an old school equivalent of the endlessly tiresome Hulk Hogan vs. Ric Flair debates. And as to an Almost unhealthy obsession, well putting the effort in to educate people is a laudable acheivement, it is only when it is discovered that you have a tattoo of Lou Thesz' face on your back that it becomes unhealthy.

You also slightly miss the point it is not what they achieved as how what they achieved has influenced modern pro wrestling. I'm not going to say anything against Thesz because I see where his influence is in modern pro wrestling. I do still feel the George has more influence on Modern Pro Wrestling as a product for consumption than Thesz does.

 

[Shocky]

This is a tough one. On the surface based on the type of people that are in the mainstream wrestling companies now, with the over the top gimmicks being the focus as opposed to actual in ring ability, then Gorgeous George wins this in a heartbeat.

Gorgeous George may not have been the first of the gimmick wrestlers, as Gelgarin has pointed out. The difference ist hat George was teh first true Wrestling Character to break down the walls on television. Surely he wasn't the first, but to be the first true Wrestling Character during the dawn of television is something amazing. Essentially the guy was the reason for a wrestler like Buddy Rogers, who influenced just hundreds if not thousands of wrestlers after him.

This is no slight on Lou Thesz though. Thesz's legacy isn't going to be with his in ring ability anymore. To watch a match of Thesz now would be probably a boring affair, and only a true die hard would appreciate it. Thesz was the last of the old school wrestlers in my opinion, and Harley Race was the first of the middle of the road wrestlers. Race inherited Thesz spot, and blended the old school shooter/hooker style with his nasty Handsome Harley gimmick.

Thesz's legacy is more so in bringing value to the world title. He was the "first" NWA champion to really give credibility to the one world title, and with that being built on the back of Thesz, it ran for nearly 50 years. So in a weird way, I feel that the credibility of the world titles is more Thesz's legacy on the business.

I tend to lean with George, as most of wrestling and it's characters are made with television in mind, and he was that pioneer, but all of those gimmicks and wrestlers are going after world titles that in a sense were given credibility by Lou Thesz.

 

[ricster]

i'm going with gorgeous george because if there was no george there would have been no rodgers or ric flair but the flipside is if there was no lou thez there would be no french angel which means no undertaker no chris adams no steve austin or curt hennig or chris benoit or kane or mark henry but if there was no george we would have no rock no cena no edge because rock cena edge are/were entainers not great wrestlers same as samoa joe and booker t and scott stiner so i'm going with gorgeous geoge that's how the ric-ster rolls and that's how's he's cool that way