Where have all the Submission finishers gone?

[Da Prophet]

So just watched WWE DVD and was thinking where did sub victorys go and why have we stopped seeing them on free to air and PPV.The only superstar that really uses a submission is John Cena with the STF-U.

Why has Jeicho basically stopped with the walls(Yeah he used it a couple of weeks ago but still).Ever since he returned to "SAVE US" he hasn't used it as much as he used to.Y2J just hits the codebreaker which isn't bad but what about the walls.

The submissions have basically died in the WWE,Cm Punk had the anacodia but just got thrown in the shitter for the GTS.Taker using hells Gate is Awesome cause it looks like it hurts and destroys everyone it is locked on.(well everyone bar Shawn Michaels)And what about the Khali vise grip.It was the submission of 2007.Flair,Rey,Batista and many more had flet the grip and had lost when they felt it.Now the guy gets hit in the leg and gets pinned 1,2,3.Even the big show used the Camal clucth coming up to Extreme Rules.

So this is my Question why have superstars stopped useing subs and should they bring them back.

I think they should cause it brings excitment,is he gonna tap ,can he hold on that knid of stuff.

 

[thepalaceprince]

Ive often wondered the same thing. I wish I had an answer or even a clue its like wrestles decided that matches were exciting enough w/o submission victories. Its a shame tho because it is incredibly exciting watchin sum1 struggle w/ a hold and then finally give up. Hopefully someone comes along whose only finisher is a submission hold

 

[LokiCobain]

I think they should cause it brings excitment,is he gonna tap ,can he hold on that knid of stuff.

I think it brings a different kind of excitement that today's fans don't care about. Overall, the entire generation wants now now now, they want to see corkscrews, swantons, shooting star presses. They want to see fast finishers because its fast and more instant than waiting for a guy to tap. With all the ADD that exists in this culture (I speak for America on that one), who is really willing to sit through what feels like an eternity for someone to tap.

I totally think it should come back because it adds something to the sport. At the last TNA PPV, in the match between Woolf and Angle, I was blown away, but besides a few bursts from a couple of people, the crowd didn't seem that into it. Crowds don't want to see two guys holding each other for twenty minutes, they want to see guys like Kofi and John Morrison and Scott Steiner doing a Frankensteiner at 60.

 

[Mike67]

My friend and I were talking about this earlier.. Basically his thinking is because of UFC. His line of thinking is that, with UFC and other organizations like it, people know what submissions look like.. Of course, this is just a thought.

 

[Reddannihilation]

I'd say a huge factor in the absence of submission holds is the WWE target audience. Honestly little kids don't want to see the Sharpshooter or the Ankle Lock because they care more about the storyline then they do the wrestling. As has been said already, they want to see flashy, spotty finishers that provide instant gratification, which is rather sad because it greatly limits technician-style wrestlers. I really hope that with WWE adding guys like Bryan Danielson to the mix that we'll get to see more technical wrestling and by proxy more submission holds but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Panic Switch]

To me the decline began upon the death of Chris Benoit. It seemed WWE distanced itself heavily from submissions and subjugated submissions for rare occasions with quick tap-outs (Any time Cena applies the STF). But then again it is more likely to make the kiddies with their short attention spans happy.

 

[dbrdss]

Thats what i was thinking too Panic Switch. It used to be so thrilling to see Angle or Benoit lock in the Ankle Lock or Crossface or Sharpshooter. They tried it multiple times, the crowd goes crazy and the commentators ( Jim Ross ) are yelling at the top of their lungs. At the end they tap out, or maybe not. But that was Kurt and Benoit, now the best technical wrestlers in the WWE are gone and submission wins have gone way down.

 

[johnbragg]

I think submissions could work with the kids. It's ten seconds, and either the guy taps, breaks the hold, or gets to the ropes.

The wrestlers have to sell it, though. DH Smith has HHH locked in the Sharpshooter, HHH grimaces like he's passing a kidney stone--can HHH make the tag to Michaels, or will he have to tap out?

If you have the attention span to sit through a 20-minute DX promo without changing the channel, you can focus on 15 seconds of will-he-tap/can-he-tag drama.

The submission hold has to be treated as a finisher, not a rest hold. If it can end the match, ADD kids will pay attention. Foley got the Mandible Claw over as a finisher, guys today can get a submission over.

 

[MasterShakeIz4Real]

To me the decline began upon the death of Chris Benoit. .

Yeah ima have to agree. After the Benoit ordeal, Submissions seemed to just fall off. Wasn't it around that time CM Punk quit the Anaconda Vice and started using the GTS? ((I could be like a year off but I honestly can't remember and I don't feel like checking cuz it's early.)) If not, I apologize for bein' stupid. But what I'm sayin' is, it's plausible this is why.

Or another reason is the audience. The kids today don't respect the technical aspect that is submissions like older fans do. They just wanna see highspot after highspot followed by a Hulk Hogan like comeback for the victory out of nowhere. The only time in WWE people react to a submission is if Undertaker does it. (To my knowledge)

But in my opinion, a submission victory means more then a pinfall. I mean, if Kofi Kingston made Randy Orton submit, that would do wonders for him. If you wanna push someone, have'em make someone tap. All in all, I wish MORE matches ended in submission because half the matches that end by pinfall, the finishers suck.

 

[The Ultimate]

I definitely prefer submissions over pinfalls, and your right, submissions are very rare, (except in the case of Breaking Point ppv) But other than that they never use them, and even if they do, you don't get the same feeling as you would use to, because even if the victim is screaming in pain the user of the move holds the move so loosely that the sell doesn't even gt over with me... Stupid kids, what the hell is wrong with them???

 

[PBA_Sensation]

It just seems anymore that if the WWE wants to get someone over by submission, they put them in a Last Man Standing Match. As was stated, since the passing of Benoit, not many submission victories have happened outside of Breaking Point. All the submissions now have come in LMS matches, which isnt all that bad, but not the same as the drama a figure-four could produce

 

[XgringolocoX]

I don't think I saw this angle, but what about the PG rating? In so far as being restricted to what they can show to children. If a kid chokes out lil Johnny from next door, WWE might get some shit blown over thier way. Not good for business.

WWE also being a traded company now means they have to answer to people other than themselves. It could be that a few, or a bunch, of these little changes are influenced by those aformentioned outside factors. Or I'm completly full of shit.

 

[Suneeboy]

You don't see as many submissions because submissions are too decisive of a win. Submissions end feuds faster, and submissions make the winner look more dominating. Guys don't want to lose by submission because it makes their character look weak after the initial loss a little bit more than a pinfall would. That's why only mega stars use submissions nowadays and get the tap out victory. Cena and Taker in the WWE...sorry to mention TNA but Kurt Angle also.

You just can't have guys coming in using submission maneuvers because when its time for them to go over, you don't really want your big guys tapping out to them. You can blame MMA for this. Submissions are more "real", and when something is "real" it has to be used lightly in worked fighting.

Submissions are now a novelty.

 

[WorldHeavyweightChampion]

Sting with the Scorpion Death Lock. Ric Flair with the Figure-4. Lex Luger with the Human Torture Rack. Terry Funk with the Spinning Toe Hold. Masahiro Chono and Scott Steiner (late 80's/early 90's) with the STF. Great Muta with (can't remember the name). Million Dollar Man with Dream Street. Taz with the Tazzmission. Etc...

We need more submission finishers. It's one thing to put someone's shoulders on the canvas for 3 seconds (heck, in boxing your opponent has to be down for 10 seconds). But to make someone quit or submit - nothing says 'I am the better man' than making your opponent quit. And I don't mean this tap-out crap. Back in the NWA/JCP days in the 80's people actually said 'I Quit' rather than tapping. Far better to make someone scream 'I Quit'!

Excitement?

Just look at Flair making Funk say 'I Quit' at Clash of the Champions 9 (Funk yelling 'I Quit' into the mic and having to retire). Or Sting having Flair in the Scorpion Death Lock the final 45 seconds of their World Heavyweight Title match at Clash of the Champions 1 (will The Stinger dethrone The Nature Boy after a 45 minute beating, or can Flair's back survive the Scorpion and hold on to the World Title?). Or even Luger having Flair in the Human Torture Rack at Wrestle War 1990 (can Luger's knee hold out?). Luger making Hogan quit on the 100th WCW Monday Nitro to win the World Heavyweight Title. Rowdy Piper putting Hogan to sleep in the Sleeper (WCW Pay-Per View; forget which one).

Classic stuff these kids today know nothing about. THIS is the stuff that got US watching.

 

[MammaJamma22]

You don't see as many submissions because submissions are too decisive of a win. Submissions end feuds faster, and submissions make the winner look more dominating.

I don't see how it makes a wrestler look more dominating than his opponent....at least, not anymore than any finisher would. A finisher is a finisher -- whether it's a submission hold, a knockout blow, a move....whatever. So you mean to say that when Batista does his powerbomb finisher, it's less dominating than the Wall of Jericho? To me, they're equal -- someone lost to their opponents finishing manuever. End of story.

How does it end a fued? Desmond Wolfe and Kurt Angle's feud didn't end when Wolfe tapped out. He merely said he tapped so that he could remain healthy enough to take on Kurt again. Angle won the battle, but he didn't win the war. Sounds like good logic to me. Did it make Kurt look more dominating? Maybe at first, but overall it didn't. Did it end the feud? Uh, definitely not. In fact, we got one of the better matches either TNA or the WWE has put on within the past year.

So to say that a submission hold is too dominating or completely destroys a feud -- foolish.

 

[Suneeboy]

I don't see how it makes a wrestler look more dominating than his opponent....at least, not anymore than any finisher would. A finisher is a finisher -- whether it's a submission hold, a knockout blow, a move....whatever. So you mean to say that when Batista does his powerbomb finisher, it's less dominating than the Wall of Jericho? To me, they're equal -- someone lost to their opponents finishing manuever. End of story.

How does it end a fued? Desmond Wolfe and Kurt Angle's feud didn't end when Wolfe tapped out. He merely said he tapped so that he could remain healthy enough to take on Kurt again. Angle won the battle, but he didn't win the war. Sounds like good logic to me. Did it make Kurt look more dominating? Maybe at first, but overall it didn't. Did it end the feud? Uh, definitely not. In fact, we got one of the better matches either TNA or the WWE has put on within the past year.

So to say that a submission hold is too dominating or completely destroys a feud -- foolish.

Yes it is more dominating. Who said "completely destroys a feud"? I didn't. I said it ends feuds quicker.

Here is the logic. A wrestler can hit their finisher out of no where and get the pinfall. RKO, Rock Bottom, Stone Cold Stunner, Code Breaker, FU, Knockout Blow, Chokeslam, so on and so forth. It can be a "fluke", or a win on "any given night". It happens.

There is a distinct difference between a guy getting knocked out, and the ref stopping the match because the guy doesn't want to go anymore. Saying you "quit" is more impressive for the victor than getting a pinfall when you are building characters.

Actually putting someone in a submission hold, then having them writhe in pain, reaching for the ropes and not being able to then telling the ref that they quit by tapping out, is more dominant than going for a lariat, the opponent ducking and catching you out of know where with a finisher.

This is why there are less submission finishes now. Not because it is "boring", but because you don't want your guys tapping out that much. You want it to look like anyone can win at anytime at any moment. Submissions are cold and calculating, and require DOMINANT characters or people that you want at the TOP.

 

[Grizzly0u812]

I would like to see the submissions come back to, actually made the wrestling look a little more real with submissions because you know if done right would actually hurt a person so they could sell the move.

years ago a sleep would win you the match, a full nelson would win you the match, now a 619 and a splash off the top rope brings a win, no disrespect to ray ray, but you know what I mean.

have not seen a sleep win a match since what piper put one on hogan to beat him in WCW, I think that was the last time I have seen that.

hell steiner, use to use the boston crab which he called the stenier recliner and it would beat people.

I want submissions back cause again it made the matches more believable, not this one shot knock out punch, or elbow from the top.

make it believable again, seem to watered down now, mix it up more

 

[Skorpiunz]

All the submission finishers have gone to TNA where real wrestling is still at least somewhat alive.
Daniels vs Desmond Wolf was all submission.. idk how it finished but 95% submission.
We got kurt and his ankle thing
sting and the death lock.
lashley and his tarded choke thing
does steiner still use the steiner recliner?

WWE doesn;t do it at all now cuz kids like hitting and throwing.

 

[MarkusThorson]

It may have something to do with them not wanting the wrestlers seem weak by giving up [ tapping ]...which is stupid

They want everyone to be super tough and never give up...submissions are very exciting and alot easier on the bodies so you would think there would be more of them

 

[prophefixz]

I think like tag teams, submissions are in a huge decline atm

There was those few weeks that wwe looked to include submissions into finishes (Cena STF and batista gaining an ankle lock) but that was quickly ended. The only person who seems to use a submission weekly is chris masters, but thats more to do with the fact he has no other move that will aid his face push. His pec dance seems to garner more of a reaction than the master lock these days though =/

it could also be added that submissions aren't used because most wrestlers today don't have submission finishes...

Submission finishes died with Benoit/malenko/Ric flair and the only other person who utilised a popular Submission finisher was Jericho. The code breaker is ok, but i still love the walls.

 

[MizMark]

All the submission finishers have gone to TNA where real wrestling is still at least somewhat alive.
Daniels vs Desmond Wolf was all submission.. idk how it finished but 95% submission.
We got kurt and his ankle thing
sting and the death lock.
lashley and his tarded choke thing
does steiner still use the steiner recliner?

WWE doesn;t do it at all now cuz kids like hitting and throwing.

You haven't really made a point here.

John Cena - STFU, that wins him a good percentage of his matches.
Undertaker - Triangle Choke, used to finish a number of his matches.
Jericho - Walls of Jericho, not really used anymore, but jobbers will tap to it.
Dibiase + Rhodes - Beat DX with them both putting a submission on Michaels.
Chris Masters - Masterlock on Carlito on Raw only a week ago.

There are more too, that's just off the top of my head, and all are really recent examples apart from Jericho.

Your statement that WWE doesn't do it because the kids like "hitting" is ridiculous. Alot of WWE workers at the minute are big, powerhouse wrestlers, or flashy high flyers.

Seriously, out of all the current WWE roster how many have used submission finishers in the past that don't anymore? Not many.

 

[BigGintheCG16]

Yeah, I don't think there's significally less now then there use to be. I haven't thought about it or notice it. WWE has never been huge on submission finishes, so I don't see a lack of it.

 

[gd]

I think the reason the WWE has gone away from submission finisher is because it makes the person who taps out look "weak", or something like that. This makes some sense, but at the same time, I don't think it matters that much. I think a wrestler will be looked at pretty much the same regardless of the way they lose this match.

Submission finishers can be pretty cool at times, especially to end feuds and shut up a cocky heel. However, I don't think it's a huge deal that they seem to be a dying breed today. Some people may love them, but it's not that big of an issue for me.

 

[Big Ol' Buckta AIDS]

I generally don't like to blame the PG era for anything, but in this case I think well, that is the case. Little kids like huge spots. Jeff hardy's Swanton, The FU ( yeah thats right I still call it the FU, what of it.) The 619, Morisons Corkscrew thing etc etc. They don't appericate techinical wrestling and because of that the E is pushing bigger, over the top finishers to get the kids excited rather than sell a submission which might not be so exciting to them.

 

[SUBMIT2GR8NESS]

Look i have said this for awhile now. Technical wrestling in the wwe died with chris benoit. Now regardless of his actions, he was no doubt the best pure wrestler in the wwe. Think about it when he was in the ring you could expect either a cross-face or a sharpshooter. Also you have Flair gone who has the figure 4 which is a pretty nasty submission even though it's old. Sure Jericho has that boston crab and Cena has that awful stf or stfu wht ever he calls it. Show had a submission move, remember that camel clutch.

People i think who should have submission finishers:
Drew Mcyintire=Turn that doulbe arm ddt into a double arm guillotine choke.
Luke Gallows= He could keep do that reverse full nelson on the ground.
Chavo Gurrero= Why not use Eddie's laso from el paso.
Chris Masters= instead of just a full nelson, make it a full nelson camel clutch.
Big Show= GO back to that cobra clutch backbreaker.

I JUST PRAY IF BRYAN DANIELSON COMES TO THE WWE HE COULD SPICE THINGS UP WITH THAT CATTLE MUTALATION.