When the Radicalz jumped to WWE

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan, M.D.]

I was just wondering what the buzz around the wrestling world was when Benoit, Saturn, Malenko, and Guerrero came into WWE as a group. I think I was 11 at the time and was not aware of any sort of backstage news and those types of things and still kind of thought wrestling was 100% real. Was it big news at the time or a shock to anyone?

 

[Ovaltine]

Yeah it was a huge shock to everyone. Benoit was the WCW champion at the time and all the rest of the group had become pretty high profile players in WCW. The crazy thing was that they were all signed to contracts and WCW let all four of them go. It was insane. Personally at the time I didn't think anyone of those guys was a main event, but they were all work horses. It really hurt the product and it hurt the WCW title even more than it had already been hurt. As for how they eventually faired in WWF as opposed to WCW... well, Benoit may have held the title, but it was more of a reward for being in the business for so long. I honestly don't think he would have held either of the two main WWF/E titles ever again. He slid right back down to the middle of the card and I don't think he would have gone anywhere beyond that. I know some will argue that he was meant to hold the WECW title, but anyone with a clue will tell you that that title was meaningless under the WWE banner. Saturn never really made it beyond the lower mid card and Malenko was treated like he was useless. IMO he knew he wouldn't ever be anything in WWE and opted to retire before the WWE buried him any further than they already had. Eddie was the only one who achieved anything of note in the WWE. He won the title because he was that good. His title reign wasn't a reward for being in the business. It was because he was over and people would pay to see him as champion. I really believe that he would have had numerous other reigns as champion if he had lived. As for WCW well it really hurt the promotion. Like I said earlier the work horses were gone. It made WCW look like no one wanted to stay there. I was a diehard WCW fan. I even stayed loyal even when the promotion sucked under Russo, but even I saw it as the WWF is now the place to be and WCW is in its dying days. Of course I hated the WWF product so I still barley watched (I only switched over when there were commercials on TNT) but when I did see them all I could think was how in the heck did WCW brass allow this to happen. Why would they let four of their best workers who were under long term contracts go. It just didn't and still to this day doesn't make any sense at all. Sadly this was indeed one of the final nails in the coffin for WCW. They could no longer say that they had the greatest technical workers in the world wrestling for their promotion. Those bragging rights now belonged to the WWF. It's still baffling what happened to WCW during its last few years!

 

[ryankayy506]

According to one of the Guest Booker DVDs done by Kayfabe Commentaries, it was because Benoit and the group gave an ultimatum that Kevin Sullivan had to go or they were going to go. At least that is what Mike Graham said. Take a peek at it on Youtube if you get the chance as he talked more about it.

 

[vampxx24]

According to one of the Guest Booker DVDs done by Kayfabe Commentaries, it was because Benoit and the group gave an ultimatum that Kevin Sullivan had to go or they were going to go. At least that is what Mike Graham said. Take a peek at it on Youtube if you get the chance as he talked more about it.

chris and kevin had legit heat over the whole woman issue and im assuming chris felt with kevin being booker he was trying to bury him...this lead to their strap match being pretty much legit and why what happened happened. think of it this way, chris pretty much took the guys wife who was in control of his career...... lol..... another example is why lashley left tna...spike was bound to bury him after he decided to sign with strikeforce mma... with ufc under their umbrella they wouldnt want lashley to represent a rival org and its well known spike has their hand in all of their ventures. spike would of dictated to tna to bury lashley, and lashley being smart left before his wrestling value would be dropped due to jobbing.

in the case of the rest i think it was just a matter of everyone just being tired of being held down opposed to t he older guys who many viewed were way past their prime

 

[Ovaltine]

According to one of the Guest Booker DVDs done by Kayfabe Commentaries, it was because Benoit and the group gave an ultimatum that Kevin Sullivan had to go or they were going to go. At least that is what Mike Graham said. Take a peek at it on Youtube if you get the chance as he talked more about it.

Yeah, I have seen it. What I don't get is that Benoit thought Kevin Sullivan was trying to F' him. He made him TV champion, US Champion, Tag Champion and then World Champion. Sullivan also never won a match against Benoit. He also made Eddie a multiple time Cruiser Weight champion and US Champion. Hell, I even think that Dean was a US Champion as well. Saturn was a TV and multi time Tag Champion. How were they getting F'd? If you watch Kevin Sullivan's Death of WCW DVD he actually said that he let them all go to the WWF. I thought that that was insane. Benoit stole his wife for crying out loud and then he made him champion- how is that F'n him? Also, Sullivan talks about how he protected Benoit, Guerrero and Malenko all from the Goldberg win streak because he knew that they were the future of the company. Mike Graham said that Kevin never uttered a single word about the Benoit/ Woman situation and that Woman was feeding Benoit all sorts of stuff that Kevin was going to eventually get revenge. I don't know how much of that is true, but (not to sound sexist) it sounds like your typical psycho woman (as in other women not WCW Woman) drama. To be honest I think I am siding with Kevin and Mike on this one. Not that I am not fans of all of those guys (I am) but I think they saw the Titanic sinking and they used Kevin Sullivan as and excuse to jump ship. Yes, I believe that their reason for leaving is that simple.

 

[FlairFan2003]

There was definately heat between Sullivan & Benoit, but the fact was WCW was in the mnidst of so many changes between Eric Bischoff's firing in Sept 99 till the eventual death in 2001 that a small group of mid carders leaving wasnt as big a deal. In fact, if Sullivan hadnt booked Benoit to win the World Title as incentive to stay the switch would have been a blip on the radar if that.

By the time they left Hogan & Sting had been mostly gone for months. Goldberg was not regularly appearing, if at all. Kevin Nash was wrestling sparringly. Flair wasnt wrestling at all. The company was drawing it's last breaths and the absences of guys like Goldberg, Hogan, Sting & Nash hurt a lot more than Benoit & Company leaving.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Yeah, I have seen it. What I don't get is that Benoit thought Kevin Sullivan was trying to F' him. He made him TV champion, US Champion, Tag Champion and then World Champion. Sullivan also never won a match against Benoit. He also made Eddie a multiple time Cruiser Weight champion and US Champion. Hell, I even think that Dean was a US Champion as well. Saturn was a TV and multi time Tag Champion. How were they getting F'd? If you watch Kevin Sullivan's Death of WCW DVD he actually said that he let them all go to the WWF. I thought that that was insane. Benoit stole his wife for crying out loud and then he made him champion- how is that F'n him? Also, Sullivan talks about how he protected Benoit, Guerrero and Malenko all from the Goldberg win streak because he knew that they were the future of the company. Mike Graham said that Kevin never uttered a single word about the Benoit/ Woman situation and that Woman was feeding Benoit all sorts of stuff that Kevin was going to eventually get revenge. I don't know how much of that is true, but (not to sound sexist) it sounds like your typical psycho woman (as in other women not WCW Woman) drama. To be honest I think I am siding with Kevin and Mike on this one. Not that I am not fans of all of those guys (I am) but I think they saw the Titanic sinking and they used Kevin Sullivan as and excuse to jump ship. Yes, I believe that their reason for leaving is that simple.

I remember in the Benoit DVD and Benoit said something that Sullivan was returning as a booker so I am thinking before that Sullvian was not really involved backstage. Which makes sense since at that time I believe it was either Bishoff, Russo, or both were calling the shots.

As for your comments on the titles given to Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Saturn. I think it's no different than Austin who was given plenty of title runs but wasn't really invested on when he was in WCW and ended up getting fired.

Also I believe the World Title was given to Benoit in a last ditch effort to keep in WCW.

As for the RAW that the Radicalz debuted, it was huge. Even before they were there (and the early days of dirt sheets) the internet was buzzing all about Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Saturn possibly jumping ship to the WWF. There was so much speculation but nothing was final until they actually appeared on TV.

It was also symbolic because, in addition to Jericho and Big Show going to the WWF, the four created a power shift in the Monday Night Wars. Where as before top stars from the WWF would jump to WCW, now its the reverse (minus Jeff Jarrett of course) Sure the four weren't to the top guys in WCW but they were still very recognizable names and were really respected by fans. This would be similar to what if Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, Kofi Kingston, and Cody Rhodes all decided to leave the WWE and jump to TNA.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

It was pretty big when it happened.

One wrestler jumping ship was one thing, but having names like Benoit, Malenko, Saturn, and Guererro jump ship at the same time was unprecedented. Especially when they were sitting in ringside and then when the New Age Outlaws started bothering them, it became a bruhaha with each of them jumping the NAO, who were the hottest tag team in the WWE at the time.

It was a bad move for WCW to let them go so easily. Benoit and Eddy ended up being champions while Malenko ended up being a good hand, and Saturn turned into a comic jobber. Still, letting that group of talent go so easily was such a bad sign for WCW, and the show suffered with those guys gone.

 

[Judah's Lion]

It was also symbolic because, in addition to Jericho and Big Show going to the WWF, the four created a power shift in the Monday Night Wars. Where as before top stars from the WWF would jump to WCW, now its the reverse (minus Jeff Jarrett of course) Sure the four weren't to the top guys in WCW but they were still very recognizable names and were really respected by fans. This would be similar to what if Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, Kofi Kingston, and Cody Rhodes all decided to leave the WWE and jump to TNA.

excellent point here. same goes for Mr. Lariat that correctly stated that one man jumping ship was a big deal, but four was unheard of.

they weren't the four biggest names that could have jumped, but they were very recognizable and respected, again stated above. all four men were multiple time champions each.

i wasn't a fan of how they debuted, but that's a matter of opinion and preference. it doesn't in any way take away from the fact of the matter that their debut on Raw was huge and arguably a turning point for both WCW and WWF.

 

[HBsam31]

I remember this being a big deal, and I wasn't even a regular on the internet then yet. It was a huge deal after WWF losing so many names to WCW that the tide was turning again. Not being on the internet all the time made it that much more exciting seeing Benoit who had just won the WCW title jump of to WWF. This is one thing I miss about today's wrestling as when TNA or ROH stars jump to WWE their past isn't even really mentioned that often, and WWE guys moving to TNA just doesn't seem as important as the jumps were back in the day.

 

[dudekindjack]

i remember dirtsheets reporting it, and seems like even a 5th guy was gonna leave but didnt . wanting to say mysterio but i could be wrong.

from what i remember it was over kevin sullivan being the head booker. the 4 radicalz said they were leaving if russo wasnt put back in charge or something of that nature. i also remember no one really wanted the belt back then either, so sid vicious said he be champ. at that point, i think a lot of wrestlers knew the writing was on the wall in wcw, it was just a matter of time. the reboot and russo/bishoff a few months later helped rating some with the new blood angle, but it was still too late. i may be remembering it wrong, but i remember rumors that they had signed with wwf but couldnt be on tv till feb 1st. come jan 31st 2000 , appearing at ringside during the outlaws match on raw, they debuted.

on a unrelated note, i have a peice of paper i printed off from wrestlezone the night mankind was beat to a pulp by hhh in their fued for royal rumble 2000. after raw went off the air that night, mick told the crowd to tell their grandchildren they just watched the return of cactus jack. this was going a wwf ongoing storyline going on about the same time as the radicalz issue. when i go home, ill check on that sheet i have run off see if they any headlines about the radicals mentioned.

 

[lowandmighty]

I was a bit shocked when it happened. Not because I thought they were wcw's biggest stars but I was shocked at the fact Vince McMahon wanted Benoit, Malenko and Saturn.

Eddie Guerrero I can understand because he was always great in the ring and had some serious personality.

My reasons for feeling that way about the other 3 are because I just never really trusted Chris Benoit and thought he won too many matches for who he is so I wondered if he had some kind of a mean streak backstage and people were afraid of him. There was also that rumor that he threatened wcw officials with violence unless they gave him a title run and then he threw the belt in the trash because he knew they only gave it to him because he complained.

I also always thought that Benoit suffered from a mild case of dwarfism which could be a reason he was a little bit ******ed and ended up doing what he did if you wanted to come up with anything other than brain damage.

Malenko and Saturn were just a bit too short for the WWF at the time and weren't even luchadores like Guerrero.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

I was a bit shocked when it happened. Not because I thought they were wcw's biggest stars but I was shocked at the fact Vince McMahon wanted Benoit, Malenko and Saturn.

Actually ...

Vince McMahon always wanted Benoit even during the mid 90's. I believe Benoit worked a few dark matches during that time. The problem was Benoit didn't want to work exclusively for the WWF so he could work in places like Japan. Unfortunately they could not come into an agreement.

In the Radical deal from what I remember, it's Benoit the WWF really wanted and Malenko, Saturn, and Guerrero all came in as part of a "package deal".

Either Benoit convinced them to sign the other three or they thought it would make a bigger splash to have the four that walked sign to the WWF, that I am don't remember.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

It was a big deal, but it wasn't THAT big a deal at the time.

Remember, Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Saturn were fan faves who seemed on the cusp of doing something big, but they weren't huge stars at the time. Benoit was made champion to try and keep him, but it was too little, too late.

To put it in perspective, it would be like Sandow, Ziggler, Bryan, and Ryder leaving the WWE today to head to TNA, and the WWE trying to put the belt on Ziggler right before he leaves in an effort to dissuade him.

The other thing is that WCW had come way, WAY down from its peak at the point that those guys left.

Also, there was a big pop when they debuted in the WWE, particularly the 10 man tag team match they participated in on RAW. However, after that, each guy settled into a mid to low card feud. Benoit made the most of it to start, but none of these guys really clicked right away. The Radicalz, as a group, didn't do much.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Also, there was a big pop when they debuted in the WWE, particularly the 10 man tag team match they participated in on RAW. However, after that, each guy settled into a mid to low card feud. Benoit made the most of it to start, but none of these guys really clicked right away. The Radicalz, as a group, didn't do much.

I disagree I believe these guys added another layer of depth to the Attitude Era at the time. Let's face it The Rock, Austin, and DX were all entertaining at the time but, for the most part, the idea of technical wrestling was thrown out of the window.

Bringing The Radicalz, as well as Angle, Jericho, Taz, The Dudleys and push of Edge/Christian and The Hardyz probably added a bit more longevity to the Attitude Era. Since they brought about a fresh coat of pain in the Attitude Era.

And I wouldn't say Benoit and Eddie Guerrero didn't do much either. Benoit was working in high profile feuds with Jericho, Kane, Undertaker, The Rock, Austin, Angle, and Triple H before his injury. Eddie Guerrero was in the mid card but was given an entertaining program with Chyna.

I think the only one who was lucked out was Perry Saturn. I'd say, at least, Malenko was given a prominent role backstage.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

I disagree I believe these guys added another layer of depth to the Attitude Era at the time. Let's face it The Rock, Austin, and DX were all entertaining at the time but, for the most part, the idea of technical wrestling was thrown out of the window.

Bringing The Radicalz, as well as Angle, Jericho, Taz, The Dudleys and push of Edge/Christian and The Hardyz probably added a bit more longevity to the Attitude Era. Since they brought about a fresh coat of pain in the Attitude Era.

And I wouldn't say Benoit and Eddie Guerrero didn't do much either. Benoit was working in high profile feuds with Jericho, Kane, Undertaker, The Rock, Austin, Angle, and Triple H before his injury. Eddie Guerrero was in the mid card but was given an entertaining program with Chyna.

I think the only one who was lucked out was Perry Saturn. I'd say, at least, Malenko was given a prominent role backstage.

Benoit certainly had the highest profile to start with, and his first real feud was with Chris Jericho which lasted the majority of his first year. I agree that it did extend the Attitude Era, or at least gave it a bit more of a pop, but as a group, they didn't make a splash. The IWC at the time had visions of them staying together as a Four Horsemen style stable and going right into the main event.

I'm just saying that the reality was that only 1 out of the 4 had traction to start, and finally Guerrero started to click in the tag team division. I know he had that thing with Chyna, but really, that was so.....beneath his abilities? Not much different than what he had to deal with in WCW? You gotta think: Guerrero was coming off of WCW where he had classic matches with Benoit, Malenko, and Mysterio. He started foundering there, and then moves to WWE where....he's thrown into a lame arrangement with Chyna. Meh.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Benoit did work in the WWF in 95, managed by Ted DiBiase. At the time Vince wasn't working with the japanese companies and as such wasn't happy for Benoit to tour and be on his payroll... he could easily have ended up in the push that Triple H/Steve Austin got at that time...

As for 2000, I believe that the 5th guy wanting to leave was Kanyon, can't guarantee it but I seem to remember hearing it before that he was trying to get out with them.

At the time it was shocking because Benoit literally won the title and was released a day or so later, not so much for it being four guys. From WCW's perspective they were 4 of their higher paid mid-carders, who wanted out, so save the wages and push less expensive talent (like Kanyon, Jindrak/O' Haire etc) was good business sense for them...

There was heat between Benoit and Sullivan for reasons we all know, although it did extend to Mike Graham by default as Sullivan's right hand man. Graham talked about Benoit ratting out that he felt Graham had threatened his life when he confronted him and that Benoit HR to complain of an unsafe working environment to get his release rather than speak to him or even Bischoff.

The nearest I can equate this too was Jim Neidhart and Davey leaving after the screwjob, WCW could have made Eddie and co buy out their deals but it would have been tied up in court and with Benoit's accusations it could have got very messy, it was easier to just let them go. Saturn had zero chance in WCW after "Moppy" and Malenko wanted the big payday for his final year in the ring and had eyes on a producer role.

The only reason Eddie didn't click right away was the elbow injury, it was pretty horrific but from the first debut he and Benoit were clearly going to be the "stars" of the team.

It was most memorable for it being the first time that the IWC/Sheets knew of a backstage beef on the scale of the screwjob beforehand... they reported all the heat between Benoit and Sullivan, the frustrations of him not getting the push and ultimately that he had rejected the title for his release, that is perhaps the final thing that forced WCW's hand... once their new champ was known to have asked for their release, they could only suffer by "benching him" and forcing him to stay/job.

 

[Papa Pillman]

i remember dirtsheets reporting it, and seems like even a 5th guy was gonna leave but didnt . wanting to say mysterio but i could be wrong.

The fifth member was Shane Douglas. He was leading the Revolution stable involving all of these guys except Eddie in WCW at the time. Douglas really thought it was all done as a package deal. WWE didn't want Douglas, but he thought if they were all banded together they would take him to secure the other four guys. In reality the other four made the jump anyway without the WWE willing to take Douglas, who was in the dark till it all went official.

I was in Cincinnati for the 2000 Souled Out weekend when this all went down. I was also following a local wrestling radio group at the time that had backstage access all weekend and the whole thing was surreal with constant updates as it all developed.

Ultimately, Sullivan's relationship with the group, especially Benoit, is what was the catalyst for the move. To try and keep from taking the heat of being responsible for losing so much talent, trying to persuade Benoit(and hopefully the others as a result) to stay, Sullivan made the decision to put Benoit over for the World Title at the PPV. They thought that was enough to calm the situation, but by late that night/the next day it was clear it was too late and couldn't be salvaged. That is why they were forced to run the angle the next night in Columbus where Sid's leg was ruled under the rope, effectively wiping out Benoit's title win.

Being so close to the situation as it all went down took away any of the shock when it all happened(minus the final decision to go ahead and put Benoit over, plus the end game of Douglas being left out of the jump), but still it was a cool to be privy to everything unfolding behind the curtain on Sunday afternoon.