What has happened to submission finishers?

[Cookie14]

Look at some of the great Wrestlers in history, guys like Ric Flair, Bret Hart, the Sheik, Kurt Angle, Sting, they all had a submission as a finisher.
WWE always used to have several wrestlers with submission finishers. You have also had people like Tazz, Shamrock, Million $ Man, Benoit, Brutus Beefcake, Sgt Slaughter, Scott Steiner, and several others.
Now, there is only Jericho and Cena, and they only use theirs (Walls of Jericho and STF) occasionally.
Is the decline in submission moves caused by the increasing popularity in UFC and MMA style fighting outside of WWE, or is there another reason?

Just to look at this one from a slightly different angle, is there a WWE superstar you think could carry off a submission finisher these days?
I think Swagger could do something, maybe a camel clutch variation, or an ankle lock.
Or possibly give Mark Henry the Torture Rack?
Any opinions?

 

[jmyers19]

Good question. Last time Cena used STF if I'm not mistaken was either on Raw this past week or last week when he went crazy on DiBiase. Last WM Jericho used the Walls and I think he did at Backlash, year before that was 'Taker using his Hell's Gate on Edge, and at WM23 it was Michaels tapping out to Cena's STF and the same with Hunter at WM22. I think we just need to see more use submission holds for finishers, I don't know if its either an official move of his or if he used it out of randomness to ground Kane but Ziggler used the sleeper-hold and he uses it well, next time he wins a match it could be via submission after wearing someone down and making the tap/pass out. Batista pulled off the single leg boston crab or whatever it was late last year and since its a given that we'll see Cena/Batista at WM then Batista could impliment more submission holds given Cena's past injuries. Punk I'd love to see use the Anaconda Vice more often, now he's heel he could apply it and as a way to further punish his opponent keep the hold applied. But it could be down to the rise of MMA/UFC but it hasn't stopped guys in the past finishing the match with a submission hold.

 

[CraigThe13th]

I tend to believe it's down to what happened with Benoit. I've noticed since his family tragedy that WWE have heavily cut back on submissions since then. Maybe it's down to internet clowns claiming Benoit killed his son with the crippler crossface. Who knows, all I know is the lack of submissions makes for poorer watching. I just hope Daniel Bryan is allowed to not only use the cattle mutilation but also bring back submission style wrestling to the WWE.

 

[xXstraightedgeXx]

I don't think that the popularity of MMA has anything to do with WWE using less submission finishers. In MMA they use lots of submission's so that just doesn't make any sense.

 

[ICPchris1369]

if it has to do with competing with MMA it makes sense since in real life a person would never ever stay in a submission hold as long as wrestlers do. watch any mma fight, armbar and they tap out in seconds because in real life submission holds break and tear bones, muscles, & ligaments if applied for too long. its highly unrealistic for a wrestler to be "fighting" a submission hold for minutes as they try to get to the ropes. but then again this isnt mma, we know its not real, we choose to suspend our disbelief. also a few weeks ago on smackdown Jericho did the old school liontamer style walls to JTG. i noticed that and popped like i was watching the lionheart master of 1004 holds chris jericho again. lol it was awesome, also the less submissions that are used make it more epic when a submission finished is used. any southern cali peeps check out SoCal Pro Wrestling. cheap plug lol.

 

[Davi323]

Skhafe, that is exactly what I was thinking...when I first read the title of the thread, my immediate thought was that submissions as finishers died when Benoit died.

I miss submissions. A lot. Making a guy quit just seems more badass than simply pinning them 1-2-3. A guy that makes another wrestler submit, is a guy that just made the other wrestler his bitch. It says, "I own you, punk."

Submission finishers are about domination, exerting so much control over your opponent that they absolutely cannot continue. If you take a submission finish to its raw essentials, it turns every match into a basic "I quit" match, without the losing wrestler having to actually say the words. But, basically, that's all an I quit match is, a match in which the loser has to "give up" rather than be pinned. What is going to push a mid-carder into the next level faster, getting a fluke pin win over someone like HHH or Randy Orton, or making them tap? When you make someone submit, you establish that you clearly got the better of them. It is a lost art.

 

[scorpioking1026]

The art of the submission move is deff a lost one. Think a main reason for this is because of the style of wrestlers we see today. There are more high flyers and big men then there are technical wrestlers. Sure these guys could easily do a submission hold but would it look right? Cena doing the STF makes me grinch every time. HHH does the figure 4 here and there and it just looks odd cuz that's not his character. The same withh HBK and the Sharpshooter and figure 4. I like Jericho's CodeBreaker since its a move that comes out of nowhere and I love it when he does it mid-air. Plus another thing that has helped diminished this art is the fact that alot of heels used to apply submission holds but very rarely did the faces ever tap out. It was always the other way around which was strange to me since submissions work best with the heels since its a form of "torture". I don't want to blame the Benoit saga cuz even b4 that there was still a low supply. If that was true I don't think WWE would have their poster boy, Cena, using the STF since it is the "Crippler Crossface". Hopefully someone from NXT will bring back this tradition. Still can't believe "Punk" from I love NY is going to be on there. LOL

 

[Crippler CrossFace]

there is a guy who uses a submission as his finisher... Chris Masters, I hate him but he uses the Masterlock

Anyway I think that Chris Benoit contributed to the downfall of submission wrestling for a different reason than stated before. He was just too damn good at it. Think about how fast he could slap the Crippler Crossface on. You come at him with a misplaced clothesline and boom you were smackdab in the middle of the crossface. Also Angle. He could get the Ankle Lock on at any point and it got fans to expect them to come out of nowhere when submission holds really can't come out of nowhere. They need to be setup and that takes some time. I think the fans got spoiled with Angle and Benoit in their submission speed and wanted a faster paced submission.

Now I know some of the fun of a submission is that the guy applying the hold sets it up for awhile. I like submission wrestling and would love to see it come back as well.

 

[Greenlight13]

I don't think it's Benoit or MMA, I think it's PG. I'm not one of those guys who bitches constantly about how PG has ruined the WWE and it'll never be good for as logn as it's in place (I actually defended it at length in another post), but I think this is an area where it is to blame.

PG isn't just about removing the bad language, blood, and t&a, it's about marketing wrestling to children more so than it has been in the past. Ring psychology isn't really required because it's lost on kids, especially when there are commentators to sit there and beat them over the head with what the story is every 10 seconds. This is why the average match is mostly about the entrances and post-match shenanigans and the actual wrestling content amounts to five minutes of punches and kicks in the corner and the odd headlock. Finishers are recycled and the big bad SOB rookies use pretty basic slams, because children get that. They get that a really big man slamming a smaller man down hard hurts.

Kids are not really programmed to sit through, understand and enjoy a 20-minute match that consists primarily of going after a body part and building slowly towards being able to lock in a submission. They get bored watching guys writhe around looking for the ropes or an escape. The PG WWE is about the quick, to the point, flashy encounters that children understand, and submissions are unfortunately just not so flashy.

Just my take.

 

[Moda B Turki]

Well , i think WWE have to push Some Submission wrestlers , or just Bring back that masterlock Challange , it could push chris masters BTW , and There is Cena but i Remember the last time he won with STF was against the miz Before Summerslam maybe , as well Punk should use His anaconda Vise as his a Great Heel , and i think undertaker is going to use hell'sgate at EC ... so i think in this mean time WWE Have to bring back some actions with the submissions ..

 

[CraigThe13th]

I don't want to blame the Benoit saga cuz even b4 that there was still a low supply. If that was true I don't think WWE would have their poster boy, Cena, using the STF since it is the "Crippler Crossface".

The STF isn't quite the Crippler Crossface. The only similar bit is the headlock-type part, which Cena taken from Benoit to make his STF(U) a little different.

Cena/Taker/HHH/Micheals all seem above the rules as far as submissions are concerned

I never really noticed the phasing out of submissions till after Benoit's death so you may have a point. But since Benoit, has anybody else noticed that rear chinlock type rest holds seem to have all but gone? Everyone uses a lame sorta cobra clutch type hold now :S

 

[scorpioking1026]

I don't think it's Benoit or MMA, I think it's PG. I'm not one of those guys who bitches constantly about how PG has ruined the WWE and it'll never be good for as logn as it's in place (I actually defended it at length in another post), but I think this is an area where it is to blame.

PG isn't just about removing the bad language, blood, and t&a, it's about marketing wrestling to children more so than it has been in the past. Ring psychology isn't really required because it's lost on kids, especially when there are commentators to sit there and beat them over the head with what the story is every 10 seconds. This is why the average match is mostly about the entrances and post-match shenanigans and the actual wrestling content amounts to five minutes of punches and kicks in the corner and the odd headlock. Finishers are recycled and the big bad SOB rookies use pretty basic slams, because children get that. They get that a really big man slamming a smaller man down hard hurts.

Kids are not really programmed to sit through, understand and enjoy a 20-minute match that consists primarily of going after a body part and building slowly towards being able to lock in a submission. They get bored watching guys writhe around looking for the ropes or an escape. The PG WWE is about the quick, to the point, flashy encounters that children understand, and submissions are unfortunately just not so flashy.

Just my take.

You make a great point about kids. Just to take it one step further, submissions might be on the decline cuz of how many kids over the years have injured others while imitating their favorite submission artist. Sure they can use other moves on their friends but submissions cause the most damage when done incorrectly, especially anything concerning the neck. Sleeper, crossface, etc.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

It really boils down to submissions not being exciting anymore. People now-a-days have very short attention spans and do not want to sit through a submission finisher . It also takes a little bit too long to establish someone's submission finisher. Take Chris Master's Master lock finisher. It took the WWE till a Pay Per View to establish the man's submission finisher, whereas if they slapped him with a Dreamer Driver lets say, people would take to him more.

 

[redkai]

yah they are lost somwhere
how about having a new PPV like
WWE SUBMIT IT
which will only be won by subbmisson hold

 

[acstylez]

I tend to believe it's down to what happened with Benoit. I've noticed since his family tragedy that WWE have heavily cut back on submissions since then. Maybe it's down to internet clowns claiming Benoit killed his son with the crippler crossface. Who knows, all I know is the lack of submissions makes for poorer watching. I just hope Daniel Bryan is allowed to not only use the cattle mutilation but also bring back submission style wrestling to the WWE.

Well here's my take on that. It 1 has something to do with the Beniot crisis a few yeahes back. That's when this decline really started. But frankly I only wanna see them as finishers. I hate watching matches were they have each other in submitions for like 5 mins of a 10 min match. It's slow and boring. So I don't wanna see this "style" if he's gonna do the same move the whole time.

 

[monsterabyss]

theres been loads, kurt angle and desmond wolfe have done triangle chokes, armbars, Kimuras, aj has done flying armbar a few times, undertakers hells gate is a gogoplata, samoa joe does a rear naked choke

 

[evanjonesaber]

Whats happened to the 'takers submission finisher - he doesn't use that much and I think it's a bad ass finisher. They really built it up as something powerful when he first started using it - remember making Edge (?!) bleed with it too...

Anyway, I wish they would incorporate submission finishers a bit more often - not too much but a bit more - keep the endings of matches more varied and interesting.

 

[edgehead1414]

I think it's the "power" of the holds. Benoit and Angle put the holds on whenever they could. 2 seconds after Chris put the crossface on his opponent, he tapped out. If the superstars used submissions more, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to push jobbers and newer wrestlers, because they would lose all of the time.
Now, the following is just a thought of what I think could happen...
If wrestlers keep on winning matches with their holds, fans will think: "This guy should win a title! He's awesome!" When the current storyline that wrestler is in (if any) could take them nowhere NEAR championships.
That is just a thought.

 

[PrinZe]

What about CM Punk! He also has the Anaconda Vice. I really like that submission move. A shame he never uses it. Oh last time was when he made The Undertaker submit

 

[Rated E Minority]

There's actually a real reason for this and it stems from the Monday Night Wars in the 90's. If I remember correctly, Vince was against the idea of submission holds on Raw because when a wrestler applied a submission move, it gave the viewer a quick opportunity to channel surf/flip. Which might end up leading the viewer to Nitro or simply forget about Raw all together. He might still be feeling the same way about submission holds for all we know.

 

[Cookie14]

I find it amusing how many people are proving my point here by naming a wrestler who is known to use a submision hold, then immediatley saying that they havn't used it in ages.
It's good to see so many different possible reasons as to why WWE doesn't push submission finishers more though

 

[Via Armbar]

Submission finishers are only fitting when associated with the right wrestler. The submission has to fit their move set and character just right or it's not believable just like with any finisher. It wouldn't make sense for guys like Morrison or Mysterio to have submission finishers as it doesn't fit in with their style. These guys have flippy and flashy finishers because it goes with their gimmicks, it's what the fans are expecting from these performers. If the crowd can't get behind the wrestler performing the submission, it's going to draw zero heat and will never get over.

Guys like Flair and Hart have the crowds eating out of their palms. As soon as they set the submission up the crowd goes bananas. Performers like that are getting more and more rare. You need for the crowd to be into the match and the story being told or submissions just slow the match down. There aren't many wrestlers who can pull off submission finishers anymore without slowing the pace of a match. People want to see big powerful moves like powerbomb and chokeslams, the big impact crowd pleasing moves. So for a wrestler to make the audience care about locking his opponent in a finisher is a mark of a great wrestler.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

All the reasons given before have something to do with it, most definitely. But I personally feel the biggest reason is EGO. No one wants be seen as a "quitter." You have guys out there who think it will diminish their stature as a main eventer (some mid card faces as well). The problem is, you had some guys back in the Attitude Era like Steve Austin and Mick Foley who wouldn't quit. Those guys definitely deserved to be able to do that, and it furthered their characters.

But now, it seems like NO ONE wants to submit, for fear of looking bad to the audience. I think it's stupid and selfish. If everyone decided it was ok for faces and heel to submit,this wouldn't be a problem. While I think a vast majority of wrestlers would be ok with submitting, their are a few (Shawn Michaels, HHH, Undertaker, etc.) who are just never going to do it (HHH did submit to Cena, and it was terrible). So the younger guys see this from the older guys, and then they also feel that it diminishes their character. It's a big problem that needs to be addressed. Outside of the Undertaker, EVERYONE should be up for submission. Another way to solve the problem would be for guys using submissions to face more jobbers.

 

[CrunKSinatrA]

The popularity of MMA has nothing to do with the lack of submissions. If anything WWE should learn from the UFC and other MMA leagues. I find it kind of funny that a rear naked choke is a sure fire finish in MMA, but it has been years since I've seen someone go out to a sleeper. It's always the two and a half hand lifts followed by them elbowing their way out. It will definitely help the product to keep people guessing and have a at least someone go out to a sleeper from time to time. I don't think I've seen it since HHH used the sleeper (obviously he's the only that gets to win with it) or since before Taz was an announcer.
It just bothers me how much we (the fans) have missed out on b/c of Vince and HHH's egos. Vince isn't the genius that everyone makes him out to be. He built an empire on the backs of Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, and Vince Russo while taking all the money and credit. And now that it's him and HHH, the business is floundering. It's rare to see the crowd into a match or even pop for a superstar. Cena is a nobody compared to the crowd's reactions to the Rock, Stone Cold, and even X-Pac got the crowd reacting more. Now it's the same old HHH or Undertaker in the main event. Of course they still draw, but we haven't been given a chance to see if any one else can draw. Because if someone has any momentum it gets killed to sate HHH's ego. RVD should've been champ during the WCW Invasion angle. ECW should've been treated with respect and allowed to do its thing. Smackdown should be renamed WCW and make the Brand Rivalry real. Or at least keep the historic value going. But no, Vince wants it his way or at least HHH's way b/c it's their company and they'll ruin it if they want to.

 

[OutsiderDX]

There are probably a plethera of reasons why submissions have been faded out. One reasons is the inaccurate stigma that wrestlers who tap out are perceived as weak.

I like to think knowlegable fans can see a submission loss for what it is, a man who got caught in a painful manuever and has no choice but to quit at that single/particular/ moment in time... and in no way should have relevance on opinions after. A wrestler is no better or worse for tapping out. But the WWE does not hold this belief.

Another reason submissions are rarely used as finishers is because it is very difficult to have a submission win tainted. We all know wrestling has been built on the rarity of clean pinfalls. Heels win by cheating, so it would be almost impossible for a heel to continue to win by submission and keep his heat.

Ideally, i think every single wrestler should have a finisher and a submission finisher. It only benefits storytelling if you can influence the fans with the use to them.