What Does Feminism Mean To You?

[Tenta]

We all know the typical stereotypes one has on the matter of Feminism. Bra Burning, Men Hating, All Lesbian. I've heard plenty of these thrown around. Hell, I've been called pussy and pushover countless times for calling myself a feminist. Usually, admittedly, it comes from a large amount of guys, who typically don't understand the concept of the Feminist movement. Many people do believe it's all about making women greater than women. To place them on a pedestal, in which men can no longer reach them. To create an inequality, that makes women more in charge of the infrastructure (lest we forget that, at least in this country of America, white men have always had the majority of power.)


So, just for my own sake, I wanna ask this question to the folks on WZ. Admittedly, it's more of a male demographic, and I think that's fairly obvious. But the point is simple; Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Now, personally, I do, as I feel the feminist movement bases itself around the equality of the genders, and accepting that, in history, women are typically relegated to a submissive role in society. Fairly or unfairly, it was seen for quite some time as ludicrous to consider that a women could be the bread winner of the house. Women used to go to college for their MRS. Degree. Now, even in today's infrastructure, women still make .77 to every man's dollar. There is clearly an inequality in the order we see now. I define myself a feminist, in stating that feminism is based around women reaching the equality of men, in all fecets of life. Thus, I suppose, we have to further define this question.

First, I have to ask you all, what is your definition of a feminist? Then, would you describe yourself as a feminist?

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Feminism to me means providing women with the same opportunities as men to flourish in their careers. Yes, I am aware that there are many other areas in which feminists seek redress for women, but I either think that sufficient progress has been made in these areas or I just frankly don't give a fuck about what they're looking to correct.

To be totally honest with you, Tenta, I have no interest in helping out or supporting a woman who is at least from a middle-class upbringing and whose worst problem is not being taken seriously by her boss. I'm more worried about the overwhelming amount of lower-class, single mothers who aspire to do nothing more than provide for their children and not have to live from paycheck to paycheck.

 

[BladeRunner]

I believe women have the same rights as men.

But I'm not a feminist, nor am I a "masculinist".

I'm a "humanist".

I also believe men and women are different, but equal.

There are some things that men are more adapted to.

And there are things women are more adapted to.

These are facts of nature that have come about through evolution.

But by definition of us all being human beings, we're equal.

 

[FromTheSouth]

What I think feminism is and what the movement has become are two completely different things.

I think feminism is about procuring equal rights for women. I think it is about equal pay for equal work, about equal opportunity, and equal rights. I think the original intentions of the movement were pure. I think the original intention was to have women not be portrayed merely as baby factories, not to be thought of us an lesser beings or incapable.

However, the movement has taken quite a turn for the worse. Whereas the forebearers of the movement wanted women to have a choice in matters like abortion, and now, they seem to only want women to choose to do what they are told. Hooters is a bad place for women because it objectifies them. No matter that it empowers women to earn upwards of $100,000 a year while going to school and bettering themselves. No matter that it celebrates femininity and all that comes with it. Ugly women can't do it, so it's bad for all women.

The mothers of the revolution wanted women to have a choice in the matter of abortion. Now, it seems as if presenting the pro-life choice is a sin amongst the feminati. That seems wrong to me. It seems like access to information on both sides of the issue would be the true intention of the movement.

Feminism has gone from an apolitical movement towards wage and opportunity equality to a leftist lobby. Women can never advance and achieve what is left to achieve when they tie themselves so closely to something as fickle as the American electorate.

I am not a feminist. I guess you could call me a traditional feminist, in that I feel that women have every right to work where the please, get paid properly for their work, and that women are definitely more that baby machines. I would never associate myself with this current movement that attacks other powerful women for not adopting a radical leftist agenda. I am tired of listening to Jehmu Green attack Pam Tebow for not aborting Tim and attacking Sarah Palin for being conservative. That is just ludicrous. I hope to God that this current movement fails and a new, more traditional equal rights lobby can emerge.

 

[Razor]

Feminism, to me, has to make up its mind.

You have side one.

Side One

Equal pay for equal work. Equal opportunity, equal rights. I can dig.

Side Two

Feminazi, much? Pro-choice turns into "ABORTION!", Lesbianism turns into "Heterosexuals are evil because a select few don't like gays," and the draft turns into "We want to do everything a male can do, but not get drafted."

Well, guess what. Pro-choice means that women can choose either or. I still don't like the way Pro-Lifers seem to vilify women who even think about choosing Abortions, but I can live with it as long as women are still allowed abortions.

All heterosexual men aren't evil, I swear. Tenta seems cool. I know I don't hate women.

If you want equal rights to men, you better be ready to sidle up with a Draft card. Oh? You don't? Then don't get pissed when you can't fight on the front lines of the war.

Side One, as I termed it, is where I'm at. There is no reason a woman should make less money for the same work a man gets paid more for. However, Side Two has taken Side One and perverted it into some kind of "If you don't have a vagina you just don't know" side show. It's horrendous.

I'm with FTS. Give me traditional Feminism, and I'm good to go. Give me "Don't shave your arms, men want you to" Feminism, and I just shake my head. People need to keep their priorities straight.

 

[Gerald Brisco]

Purely Equal Rights, The idea that Females should be able to vote, be able to pursue a career ect.

Feminism got hijacked by a bunch of Crazy Females who should of been aborted.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Feminism has got a bad reputation due to a select few women and media representations acting as if they are the general feminist. Feminism theoretically, and to me is simply people having the same rights regardless of their gender, and I'm definitely for that. I have the same views when it comes to everything; race, sexual orientation, none of it should matter, we're all human at the end of the day. There's no good reason women shouldn't have exactly the same rights as men.

 

[ABMorales787]

It depends. If its in the family, say your wife wants your responsibilities, then we gotta talk it through. We can't both be doing the same thing. You do this, I do that.

If its a women wanting to be treated like I would a man, well just know you asked for it. "What? You want me to Pwerbomb you like I did to that guy? Well... OK... But remember, you asked for it." Boy that would be awkward. But the point is if you want it, you should get what you ask for. Regardless of gender, nationality and any of that crap.

However, if its a woman coming to me with that whole "men and their penises of doom are evil" crap, I'd tell her to shut the f*ck up. That's wrong. She's stereotyping me because someone else did it to her. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Just because some idiot labeled you "Housewife" doesn't mean you can label every man "Man = Evil". You're no better than the moron who did it to you.

I know this will sound stupid, but like Louis said in that episode of Family Guy, "Feminism is about choice". And now, I'm choosing to end this post.

 

[The Roid Rage]

Feminism is bullshit, period. Why does it always have to be some "ism"? Why can't it just be "equal rights for all"? No, it has to be some bullshit about the oppressed beings that are woman. Fuck that.

I am not saying by any stretch that I think women shouldn't have equal opportunity, rights, wages, etc... What I am saying is that they don't deserve special treatment for anything. That is what things like feminism, affirmative action, gay rights, and so on are about...Special Treatment. See, then everything that happens to them is because their black, or gay, or female, or fat, or this or that. SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!! Life's a cold-hard-unforgiving-bitch and if you can't take the heat get back in the kitchen.

I believe that men and women have different roles. By nature we are programmed differently for that very reason. Women are supposed to be the nurturers, the homemakers, the support systems which plays to their strengths. Men are supposed to be the providers, the leaders, and the guidance in a family or home. None of that has anything to do with rights, wages, or opportunity though. It's about people accepting their roles in life. It doesn't mean a woman can't be a bread winner, or pursue their dreams. It simply means as I said initially, that they are programmed differently as are men, and that programming gears them to be suited to different roles. It doesn't mean a woman can't be my boss at work, or that she can't vote, it doesn't mean anything detrimental to women at all. It simply points to the natural order of life. Look at nature. How coincidental is it that the male is always the leader of the pack, the provider, the protector? Is that man pushing it's views on nature? No. It is natural order.


The truth is, that there are standards that most of society upholds, and if you can't meet them, odds are you aren't going to get a fair shake. When I was in school I remember learning about interviews with hiring managers, h.r. reps and so on or in other words people with power. When asked if they hire people based on appearance, sex, race, religion on and on, most of them openly admitted they will not hire fat people, or people they perceive as ugly, and that they do judge people based on all the other mentioned criteria. Let's say your a guy, and you are bidding for a job. The interviewer is also a guy. You and an attractive woman are having back-to-back interviews for the same job. That interviewer is statistically more likely to hire the attractive woman over you, even if you are more qualified, because the woman is more attractive. The same goes the other way around. Injustice will happen to all. You will be persecuted, you will be judged, you will be torn down for everything you are. This is the world. This is not myth people. You know the truth when you hear it. Outside of the political arena, Women have it no worse than men, Men have it no worse than women, this person over that person. Everyone gets treated like shit for who they are.


So are you all going to go start a coalition for the equal treatment of fat and ugly people, an unprotected class? No. So why you so eager to jump on the bandwagon of everyone else? Because one thing or another happened to these people or those people? Fuck that. That's everybody, why discriminate? Fuck it right? We're all so equal, no one should be above anybody right? In other words you and that multi-homicidal-thieving-cheating-raping-psychotic axe murderer on death row are just two people on the planet. Your no better than him right? I mean, we're all so equal man. He's just human like all of us. The fact that he is all of the above mentioned doesn't matter. We're all so free, we can be anything we want to be, he wanted to murder people. That guy was just expressing himself right? He has rights Damn It! Why aren't 150 of you out right now starting to picket outside of the prison he's at demanding the release of this person? Because murder is wrong right?

Well, there's a lot more shit that is wrong too. If there is one thing you can say for sure is wrong, than why are you so picky about the other things that are so clearly wrong? Because you can't offend people? I'd say differently. Sometimes that is what it takes to get people to look at their beliefs and ideal, how you get them to really evaluate themselves. More people need to do that, but unfortunately people have grown into little *****es who can't handle criticism from anyone else let alone their self. So you can't do that anymore. You can't have a society upholding morals, values, and beliefs because it's "oppressive", because other people don't like it. Bullshit. It's not that, it's just that people don't want to have to follow rules, or answer for their shit. They don't want to have to be wrong for anything. Too fucking bad. Their is such a thing as right and wrong, there is a clear cut line. Someone who is not behaving immorally doesn't need to defend their actions. It's only when you have done something that wrong that you have to do that. Make sense? It's very simple.

Hedonism, egoism, prescriptivism, aestheticism, antinomianism, nihilism, objectivism, these are the isms of the world today. Feminism is just another ism to latch onto so that you have something to bitch about. Another way for a certain group of people to holler for their special treatment because of anything they can call an excuse. They hoot and holler and scream their cause as if it supersedes the ideals and beliefs of everyone else opposed, kind of how they accuse those opposed of doing the very same thing. That is called hypocrisy. I think if you want to talk about equality, you should reevaluate what the fuck your really talking about. Equality is not real, it's an idea. The reason the idea was formed was because people are not all equal. The truth is, the strong rule the weak, the smart rule the stupid. And while that might chap your ass, I don't give a fuck, because I am strong, and I am smart. I have nothing to worry about.

 

[BladeRunner]

Equality is not real, it's an idea. The reason the idea was formed was because people are not all equal. The truth is, the strong rule the weak, the smart rule the stupid. And while that might chap your ass, I don't give a fuck, because I am strong, and I am smart. I have nothing to worry about.

I think you make some good points. But in a rather harsh tone.

Here's how we're equal. Ok, there's this guy out there. You call him "weak". You call yourself "strong". Well the fact of the matter is, you will become weak at something at some point. You like to talk about facts of reality, this is a fact of reality. You cannot remain strong forever. And this other guy, that was weak, he will at one point be strong. So you're saying you agree with this guy ruling over you because he's now strong and you're now weak?

So, knowing this, if you were to go by your belief. That the strong should rule the weak, then that means, that when you become weak, not if but when, you agree that the strong should take control over you.

Do you really think that? Do you really want the "strong" to tell you exactly how you should live? And what exactly is strength? Is it power? Is it will? Strength really is relative.

Equality came about, because we all are humans and can get sick, old, and die. Equality came about because we all want to get by in peace. Equality came about from ego's getting together and saying "How can we all get along and prosper?" It may not be a physical fact, but because we're humans and have minds, equality can become a mental virtue. By applying law that makes sure that everyone is treated with dignity and respect. A man with no legs is no less a human than a man with 2 legs.

Might does not make right. People may fear those in power, but that does not mean that they respect it. And power which is not respected will topple.

Equality is based on fairness and justice. These are humans ideals that make us more than mere animals. Don't get facts of nature mixed up with how we should treat people. We decide how we will treat people, because we have minds.

 

[The Roid Rage]

I think you make some good points. But in a rather harsh tone.

I know, it's just my style. Can't say it's not hard hitting though huh?

Here's how we're equal. Ok, there's this guy out there. You call him "weak". You call yourself "strong". Well the fact of the matter is, you will become weak at something at some point. You like to talk about facts of reality, this is a fact of reality. You cannot remain strong forever. And this other guy, that was weak, he will at one point be strong.

Very True. I never denied that. I never defined strong either, that was my mistake(I should have used the term "Power" instead). There are many types of strength. Still, some are strong and some are weak. Some are weak minded, some are physically weak, some are emotionally weak. No matter what, in whatever area you are weak, the strong will rule you in that. Whatever your strength lies, you will rule over those lesser in a given area than you. If you really look at it, that's the way everything is. Inequality comes from the advances or lack thereof that each persons strengths allow them, or that they create from them. My strengths might allow me to make more money than you or you more money than I. My physical strength might allow me to pursue dreams both of us have but only one of us can accomplish and vice versa. You see what I am getting at there? Your Strength might not gain you what mine gains me, and in that we are not equal. One will always rise above another when people are put in any scenario.

So you're saying you agree with this guy ruling over you because he's now strong and you're now weak?

If that is the way it end up, so be it.

So, knowing this, if you were to go by your belief. That the strong should rule the weak, then that means, that when you become weak, not if but when, you agree that the strong should take control over you.

Do you think that is not the case in your life as well as mine on a daily basis? We are ruled by the strong. You and I, the everyday folks are the weak in terms of power. The powerful have control over us. What I speak of is a reality we both live everyday. I never said exactly that is what I endorse either. I said that was the way shit is, and that I am not worries about it because of my own strength.

Do you really think that? Do you really want the "strong" to tell you exactly how you should live? And what exactly is strength? Is it power? Is it will?

As I said, that is already the case. The powerful/strong rule us all, tell us all how to live as is. Strength is the ability to make your will reality. You could describe it in many ways if you wanted to get reaaally technical.

It may not be a physical fact, but because we're humans and have minds, equality can become a mental virtue. By applying law that makes sure that everyone is treated with dignity and respect. A man with no legs is no less a human than a man with 2 legs.

That's all fine and dandy, and in a world where that is what everyone wants, theoretically that could be. However, because of the way things are, even with those laws and virtues that is not the way it is. Are you always treated with dignity and respect, of course not. There is no real equality. There is revenge, and with it you can settle a score, but outside of that.......

Might does not make right. People may fear those in power, but that does not mean that they respect it. And power which is not respected will topple.

I never said might makes right either. Also whether those in power are respected or not, it does not change the fact that they are where they are, even if only for a time. One does not have to have respect to have power, and although it does help theoretically with longevity, respect rarely falls on those with power as they are always criticized.

Equality is based on fairness and justice. These are humans ideals that make us more than mere animals. Don't get facts of nature mixed up with how we should treat people. We decide how we will treat people, because we have minds.

But how relevant are fairness and justice anymore? If someone overpowers you and robs you where is the justice and fairness in that? What did the ideal of equality do for you then? Nothing. One thing you got right, we do decide how we treat people. The thing is, people don't always decided to treat other people fairly, and people don't always receive justice. Those human ideals that separate us from the animals, don't stop people from acting like animals does it? No. Walk around your neighborhood, read your local inmates list for your county jail. Virtues, values, morals, they have next to no place in society today. This is not what I agree with or endorse, but it is the way of things. They only count when they benefit the right people, or when they do not hurt the wrong people.

 

[HBK-aholic]

What I am saying is that they don't deserve special treatment for anything. That is what things like feminism, affirmative action, gay rights, and so on are about...Special Treatment.

No, it isn't, which is why your argument doesn't work. You've believed the lies of the media in thinking that every Feminist is like the scarce few who say "Men are all evil, don't do this because they like it, blah blah". When, in reality, feminism is nothing more than women wanting the same rights as men.

I believe that men and women have different roles. By nature we are programmed differently for that very reason. Women are supposed to be the nurturers, the homemakers, the support systems which plays to their strengths. Men are supposed to be the providers, the leaders, and the guidance in a family or home.

No, we're socialised into thinking this. I don't think it's part of some rulebook of humans no one knows about. Men were the dominant sex for centuries because they're physically stronger and wanted to be.

None of that has anything to do with rights, wages, or opportunity though. It's about people accepting their roles in life. It doesn't mean a woman can't be a bread winner, or pursue their dreams. It simply means as I said initially, that they are programmed differently as are men, and that programming gears them to be suited to different roles.

Again, this isn't true. You 'accept' we have these different, hegemonic roles because you've been socialised by your family, and education, the media, and every other agency of socialisation to believe that's the case.

 

[Miko]

Yeah sure, equal rights, equal pay for equal work and all that. Totally agree, any job that a woman can do as well as a man, she deserves the same pay, any job they can do better, she deserves more. Amazing that I get called sexist when I say there are very few women who if they worked where I worked wouldnt deserve anything close to what I earn, I am one of those fools who does a physical job, carrying heavy shit around all day, I spend most of my time digging trenches in the fucking mud, most women I know couldnt do that, except this one really butch one.

So I worry about some feminists, trying to masculinise women, they're different from us, there are things they can do much better than us, there are things they can do as well as us, there are things men can do much better than them, differences do need to be celebrated and all that.

 

[FromTheSouth]

No, it isn't, which is why your argument doesn't work. You've believed the lies of the media in thinking that every Feminist is like the scarce few who say "Men are all evil, don't do this because they like it, blah blah". When, in reality, feminism is nothing more than women wanting the same rights as men.

But, like all movements and lobbies today, recruitment is done through the media, and the feminists on television are the militant feminazis. Furthermore, every feminist and civil rights movement starts as working towards equality, and then feels that society at large owes them something afterward. This is why I applaud the gay rights movement. All they want is to be left alone. Women's lib, on the other hand wants women to be allowed into private clubs, like Augusta National, but wants to keep Curves a women only gym, even though they are both exclusive voluntary associations. Women's groups want special treatment, and it is impossible to deny that.

No, we're socialised into thinking this. I don't think it's part of some rulebook of humans no one knows about. Men were the dominant sex for centuries because they're physically stronger and wanted to be.

Right, we're purely socialized into family roles, which is why both men and women produce milk....

Again, this isn't true. You 'accept' we have these different, hegemonic roles because you've been socialised by your family, and education, the media, and every other agency of socialisation to believe that's the case.

Bonus points for working hegemony into the conversation, but men and women are built for different things. If we put a bunch of women into a factory it would be less productive. That's just biology at work.

 

[Minor League Brian]

I could probably go off on some massive tangent like the rest of you, but the one glaring thing that South said is why I cannot stand modern Feminist. Its become nothing more then a "We want what you have, but you can't have what we have." Scenario. I even atone it slightly to the Gay Movement, or whatever is the PC term for it now a days. Its the fact that groups feel that they don't have, and deserve the rights of everyday individuals (which I am completely and totally for, mind you) but either do not want the cons or do not want to give up something they feel is "theirs".

 

[Remix]

Right, we're purely socialized into family roles, which is why both men and women produce milk....

there's a difference between lactation, and it being a woman's job to stay at home, look after the kids, and make sure Dinner's in the oven by the time the man gets home from work. If lactation was a reason for women to be pigeonholed into home making then we'd see that more in nature. For example Meerkats are a largely matriarchal society (and males also contribute to raising the young'uns), and at the other end of the spectrum from us, Lionesses are the ones that do all the hunting.

Bonus points for working hegemony into the conversation, but men and women are built for different things.

agreed. Men are bigger, more muscular and stronger.

If we put a bunch of women into a factory it would be less productive. That's just biology at work.

Not so much these days. a few decades ago you'd have had a point, now that so much of factory work is automated there wouldnt be a huge drop in productivity. And even if we give you the factory scenario, what about in other workplaces where there isnt any manual labour that arguement falls apart. ("You see Sharon, you're getting payed less than Brian because he's stronger." "That's irrelavent, we're both computer programmers.")

 

[HBK-aholic]

But, like all movements and lobbies today, recruitment is done through the media, and the feminists on television are the militant feminazis. Furthermore, every feminist and civil rights movement starts as working towards equality, and then feels that society at large owes them something afterward. This is why I applaud the gay rights movement. All they want is to be left alone. Women's lib, on the other hand wants women to be allowed into private clubs, like Augusta National, but wants to keep Curves a women only gym, even though they are both exclusive voluntary associations. Women's groups want special treatment, and it is impossible to deny that.

No, SOME women's groups want special treatment, SOME race equality groups want ethnic minorities to gain special treatment. In every equal opportunities movement there are going to be those who try to take it a step too far and want special treatment. Feminism, however, is supposed to be simply about equal rights. Obviously some groups move it into wanting special treatment, but that's different from feminism.

Right, we're purely socialized into family roles, which is why both men and women produce milk....

That's a biological difference. It doesn't mean women have to be the ones to take the 'caring' role, which is my point. Biology is one thing, men make sperm, women have eggs. The roles we've been socialised into are 'women do the caring' etc.

Bonus points for working hegemony into the conversation,

but men and women are built for different things. If we put a bunch of women into a factory it would be less productive. That's just biology at work.

A hundred years ago, maybe. Today, no where near as much, probably not at all. Very, very few jobs rely on physical strength nowadays.

 

[FromTheSouth]

there's a difference between lactation, and it being a woman's job to stay at home, look after the kids, and make sure Dinner's in the oven by the time the man gets home from work. If lactation was a reason for women to be pigeonholed into home making then we'd see that more in nature. For example Meerkats are a largely matriarchal society (and males also contribute to raising the young'uns), and at the other end of the spectrum from us, Lionesses are the ones that do all the hunting.

Many species of animals abandon their children early in life because caring for the young becomes a burden on the adults. We are not animals. We cannot assume human life exists in a state of nature. Our higher level thought, thumbs, and vocal cords differentiate us from animals. I hate it when people try to argue points about human lives by comparing us to nature. Tell me the next time a mated pair of monkeys has a car payment. Women are built for taking care of children. That is a fact. Lactation and child carrying hips just scratch the surface of the differences between men and women.

agreed. Men are bigger, more muscular and stronger. Not so much these days. a few decades ago you'd have had a point, now that so much of factory work is automated there wouldnt be a huge drop in productivity. And even if we give you the factory scenario, what about in other workplaces where there isnt any manual labour that arguement falls apart. ("You see Sharon, you're getting payed less than Brian because he's stronger." "That's irrelavent, we're both computer programmers.")

Great, and when you find the part where I said that women deserve to be paid less than men for the same job, it might pertain to something. Unfortunately, your argument fails. My point with the factory argument is that men are more equipped to handle certain jobs. Replace factory worker with football player, it really doesn't matter. Biology dictates, to a certain extent, that men and women are better than the other gender at some things. How can you disagree with that?

No, SOME women's groups want special treatment, SOME race equality groups want ethnic minorities to gain special treatment.

And they just happen to be the ones who get media attention and openly recruit. The Austin women's club may strive to provide equal protection, but since they aren't on television they really don't matter in context. But, I will grant your argument. The problem is that the "face" of the movement is turning people against the movement, and there is no one to blame other than women's organizations themselves.

In every equal opportunities movement there are going to be those who try to take it a step too far and want special treatment. Feminism, however, is supposed to be simply about equal rights. Obviously some groups move it into wanting special treatment, but that's different from feminism.

No it's really not that different. The groups in question are the groups that put a face on the movement. Now, they do plenty of good exposing unfair hiring and employment practices, fighting for choice, etc. The problem is they tend to go too far and then go on television and get absolutely embarrassed in that there is no united front or collective goal. The original goal has been achieved. Women have every right that men do. Often times, the pay discrepancy has everything to do with tenure and nothing to do with gender. Men have been at the job longer, so they get paid more. Men have more experience, so they get paid more. Simply saying that Man A gets paid more than Woman A for comparable work shows a correlation, and the first thing you learn in any freshman level psych course is that correlation does not equal causation. There are always mitigating factors beyond position in relation to the fucking toilet.

That's a biological difference. It doesn't mean women have to be the ones to take the 'caring' role, which is my point.

And I think it does. Women are naturally more gentle. Women have maternal instincts. Biology pigeonholed you into the role, not me. Sure, you can fight against it, but that is just irresponsible in relation to the child. No one is arguing that you are any less capable in the workplace, but men are less capable when it comes to caring for children.

Biology is one thing, men make sperm, women have eggs. The roles we've been socialised into are 'women do the caring' etc.

We haven't be socialized into those roles in the very least. Women produce milk, therefore, women are better equipped to care for the child. That is not socialization. You and Remix want to talk about how things happen in nature, well, in nature, the children feed at the teat of the female, and that's the way it is. Now, if you want to balance that with having a career, more power to you. But, the fact of the matter is that women play a far more significant role in the rearing of children than men do, no matter what any militant female group has to say.

A hundred years ago, maybe. Today, no where near as much, probably not at all. Very, very few jobs rely on physical strength nowadays.

OK, well it has been proven time and again that men have more analytical minds, etc. Biology dictates roles, and women have every opportunity to buck those roles, and should be happy with that.

 

[Tenta]

Yeah, pretty much what I expected from this thread; several viewpoints, FTS takes the main stance against his idea of feminism, Becca steals my thunder (Merely kidding ) Somewhere, The Game Rage makes a fool of himself, and we're all back to square one.

I've heard many opposing sides state they don't like the way feminism "has become". In all fairness, the ideas you have shaped in your head haven't merely just started now. Rather, they began in the seventies, when raging members of the Second Wave (admittedly not a very prosperous time) decided to take a more militant stance. Thus, you have what was portrayed by media outlets; men hating, bra burning, you get the point.

The sad fact is, The Second Wave was absolute shit, in terms of a movement. You want to read a real Feminist, read of Margeret Fuller, or Elizabeth Coady Stanton. They did more in a period where less was expected than those damn second wavers ever did. Again, I know that some will say that it's a different time, but is that true? Double standards regarding sexuality are still abound. The rate of women in executive positions at companies still is tripled by men. It's still not an unequal, patriarchal society we find ourselves in. And if we allow ourselves to be swayed by the poor choices of an older generation, the feminist movement may never progress.

Though, Tdigle brings up a fantastic point:

To be totally honest with you, Tenta, I have no interest in helping out or supporting a woman who is at least from a middle-class upbringing and whose worst problem is not being taken seriously by her boss. I'm more worried about the overwhelming amount of lower-class, single mothers who aspire to do nothing more than provide for their children and not have to live from paycheck to paycheck.

To say equal rights between men and women is the most prevalent issue in society would be mere pandering. I wouldn't disagree with you at all. Still, there are plenty of movements to help the cases you state. So why not have a movement to reverse another inequality?

 

[Tastycles]

There is a certain prejudice that will always exist against women in high flying companies, because there is always the possibility that she'll turn up to work one day, and need the next (at least) six months off on maternity. As sad as it is, very few employers are going to see that as ideal, and given the choice of an equally qualified man and woman, they'll go with the man. We may be able to shorten that period by making the idea of a stay at home dad more socially normal, but you are never going to have pregnant men. While I think this is probably wrong, it is something inherently unfixable.

On the other end of the scale, we have low paid jobs. It is both unfortunate and true that most such jobs involve manual labour, and women are unfortunately generally physically weaker and therefore less likely to be employed.

Do I believe that women should get equal pay for equal work? Of course. Do I think they should be allowed the same opportunities as men to succeed? Definitely. In that sense, I would consider myself a feminist, but unlike racial and religious prejudice, sexism is fueled by an actual fundemental difference in the biologies of the sexes, and as a result, I don't think we'll ever see it totally eradicated, though in time we may see it reduced.

 

[The Gribbler]

To put my position simply, the theory of feminism is great, equality and all that. But it seems to have become less about equality and more about being anti-male.

So many people claim to be feminist, but they are more guilty of male hating stereotypes :S.

So in theory I support the cause but the actual state of things is somewhat different.