What could have been done to save the ECW?

[ShinobiMusashi]

With the benefit of hindsight, was there any way to keep the ECW alive? You guys know more about the rumors, and what was going on behind the scenes than I do. To me, it seems like there was more than meets the eye when it came to them going out of bussiness.

I'm going back through, and watching some of their events from 99 to 2001, and noticing the large, rabid crowds that the ECW drew, even up to when they folded. They had clearly outgrown the ECW arena by 99, and they had really started to draw some good crowds(same crowds as Raw was doing from 93 to 97).

With such a loyal, diehard fanbase, which was growing, how were they not making any money? Surely Paul Hayman could have done something to keep the performers salaries down, and keep the company profitable. It just doesn't really add up when you think about it. The ECW had money coming in from ppv, live events, merchandise, and on top of that you had performers checks bouncing. So if the Wrestlers weren't getting paid, where were all of the ECW's profits going? It just doesn't make any sense as to why he couldn't pay his performers.

So, what were some realistic moves that Paul Hayman could have made to ensure the ECW's survival? Was his dealing with Vince Mcmahon really a good idea in the long run(that Tazz vs HHH match on Raw comes to mind, what was the purpose of that match, which involved the ECW world title, also the way he dealt the Dudleys to the WWF in 99, even after all they wanted to stay in the ECW was a 1$ payraise over what the WWF offered them)?

With hindsight, I think if Paul had made some cuts, and kept the companys expenses down somehow to survive 2001, and 2002, the ECW would have taken off in 03-04, with a new generation of homegrown talent. The ECW was ahead of it's time, and if they could have made it to 2005, they would be the clear #2 wrestling promotion, maybe even a threat to the WWE as #1. Spike TV would have been all over the ECW in 2005, and they probobly would have had the freedom to refrain from watering their product down the way they had to with TNN in 99.

 

[Foshinzo]

You know that TNN is now SpikeTV, right? It's the same station. I get that their format has changed, but they still would have been dealing with the same bad advertising and market shares that they got in '99. Sure, Dawn Marie could have shown her ass to the cameras more, but the blood was the bigger issue, and still the business aspects wouldn't have been great. These are of course just my predictions, though. I know as much about the real story as any normal guy.

In my opinion, after '99, nothing would have saved ECW. That company wasn't meant to grow outside of a regional market.

The biggest thing that would have given them a chance would have been to not lose Taz and the Dudleys right before they went on TNN. When they lost their two biggest draws, what did they have left? They tried to build guys like Justin Credible, who was good, but Tommy Dreamer was never a top draw. Getting Raven back helped, but he was already played out by his time wasted in WCW.

Don't get me wrong, ECW had some good talent when it folded. RVD, Rhyno, the FBI, Taijiri, etc. were all part of a manageable roster that I think given the time, Paul Heyman really could have worked greatly with. But, WWF had already stolen their format and (let's be honest, with the Attitude Era,) perfected even more than Paul Heyman ever did.

Like I said, if they had kept the Dudleys and Taz, then I think they could have managed on television with consistent airtime and half of the advertisement shares. Just like WCW, though, what really killed the company was just network television not wanting them. The only difference is that WCW has driven its fans away and was using a depleted roster while being booked to oblivion. ECW was doing fine creatively and with attendance, but TNN didn't want them, so nothing would have saved them.

 

[kokoBawesome]

I'm not sure about you guys, but I could never find ECW on TV. I'd hear they were on TNN at midnight on Saturdays, or MSG on Fridays, but It seemed like they were on for a week or two, than disappeared. The internet wasn't booming like it was today, so without a way for fans to follow the action it was easy to give up on them. And I lived in New jersey, fifteen miles from the Asbury Park convention center where a third of the PPVs were. Never heard a thing about them outside of diehard fans with bootleg videos.

ECW is like hardcore music or punk, they can flirt with the mainstream but if it wanted to keep the same spirit alive it had to be slightly underground. If they could have gotten a steady TV contract they would have gotten new fans, but the old ones would have lost out because the programing would have been toned down. A toned down ECW would have folded faster than the WWECW version.

But how the fuck is CZW still doing business?!?!

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

Spike is a lot more forgiving with the censorship than TNN was. Have you seen much UFC? A lot of blood there, and real fist fighting, with people actually recieving life altering beatings on live television(anyone remember Rashad Evans vs Sean Selmon? Selmon was brutally ko'd with a kick to the face. He was completely unconcious for over 10 minutes. After the fight they kept showing replays, then went to a commercial break, came back, did an in ring interview with Rashad Evans, and even after all of that Selmon was still laid out completely unconsious on the octagon floor. His emergency room bill was $4,500, but he was only paid $3,000 for his work that night by the UFC.). I've seen some UFC fights on Spike that would easily get an 8-10 on the Muta scale.

I know TNN turned into Spike, but they have clearly lightened up on the censorship.

I agree that Taz, and the Dudleys leaving the ECW when they did was almost a deathblow. Mainly because Hayman didn't do a very good job of bringing up the younger talent through 98/99. Bringing Raven back was a waste of time, and money in my opinion. Looking back to sighn past wrestlers, or high priced WWF/WCW castoffs was not the way to go. He should have focused on bringing up home grown talent, much like he did with RVD, Taz, and the Dudleys back in 96/97.

I disagree about nothing bieng able to save the ECW. Someone with the funds could have came along and bought the company, and invested some money into it to keep it going, kind of like how Zuffa did the UFC in 2001. The UFC was in a very similar situation as the ECW was around 99/2000. That would have saved them for sure. It did the UFC, so why wouldn't it have saved the ECW? I think it would have had similar results. The UFC didn't have to tone down anything(the toning down Ie gloves, weightclasses, rules came years before they finally landed on Spike), look at them on Fox now.

The ECW was far more than a regional promotion by 99/00. They were drawing big crowds in Illinois, Florida, and Los Angeles at Heatwave 2000 may have been their biggest crowd in their history iirc.

I also have to disagree that the WWF perfected what the ECW introduced. If anything they watered it down into something that was more acceptable to watch with the wife and kids.

The ECW was more than just hardcore. The WWF was doing hardcore stuff at Wrestlemania X(ladder match, Savage vs Crush falls count anywhere), and Japan was the birthplace of hardcore. The WWF may have taken hardcore to the next level, but the ECW was about more than hardcore. The true ECW fans that have seen enough of it know that. The ECW had a distinct style that the WWF/E just couldn't do justice in my opinion, let alone perfect it.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

I'm not sure about you guys, but I could never find ECW on TV. I'd hear they were on TNN at midnight on Saturdays, or MSG on Fridays, but It seemed like they were on for a week or two, than disappeared. The internet wasn't booming like it was today, so without a way for fans to follow the action it was easy to give up on them. And I lived in New jersey, fifteen miles from the Asbury Park convention center where a third of the PPVs were. Never heard a thing about them outside of diehard fans with bootleg videos.

ECW is like hardcore music or punk, they can flirt with the mainstream but if it wanted to keep the same spirit alive it had to be slightly underground. If they could have gotten a steady TV contract they would have gotten new fans, but the old ones would have lost out because the programing would have been toned down. A toned down ECW would have folded faster than the WWECW version.

But how the fuck is CZW still doing business?!?!

ECW was on TNN on Friday nights(primetime) from late August 99 to late 2000. You never heard about it because the only commercials, or promos that TNN ever ran for it was during the actual show.

I kind of agree with you about them having to go back underground to survive. They should have went back to that underground state of mind that they had in 1996 after they lost the TNN deal. Concentrated on making profit, even if that meant letting some of their high price wrestlers to jump ship. While their rosters were depleted by the time they lost the TNN show, they still had that distinct style which had won over their diehard fanbase to begin with. Hayman should have licked his wounds, cut his losses, and took it back to a smaller scale, concentrating on maintaining it's fanbase, and growing fresh, new, affordable, young talent.

Instead, he kind of just gave up. The crowds were there, regardless if you were or not. I've seen enough to know that the ECW DID NOT fold due to lack of interest from the fans. They were packing venues around the country. It was just a matter of getting the product to more people. That was just it. Nobody knew about it. Nobody could find it. Take your case for example. You lived that close to Asbury Park, and you missed Living Dangerously 98? Your opinions of the promotion would be much different had you been in attendace at that show. The ECW won fans over with their shows.

If they could have held on until more recent times(internet, loose cable networks hungry for something that 18-35ers will watch every week) that would not have been a problem.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

When thinking about the fall of ECW, I can't help but look at the rise of the UFC, and think about what could have been. The UFC was on it's last leg in late 2000, same boat that the ECW was in, but worse. They never got a tv deal at all, so the ECW was actually doing better than the UFC in PPV numbers. Nobody wanted the UFC on their TV network, it was far too violent. So Zuffa buys the company in early 2001, the same time the ECW goes out of bussiness. Zuffa rides out a rough period from 2001 to 2004, due to their failure to secure a tv deal. Finally in 2005, the times had changed, a network finally took a chance on them(it was only a matter of time), and now they are doing primetime fights on Fox. They never had to tone anything down. The UFC is just as violent now as it was in 97, maybe even more violent actually. You can bring up the fact that the UFC is a real, legitimate sport, but keep in mind that the US government actually tried to outlaw it because of how violent it was. It is still outlawed in NY to this day.

If the UFC can become as popular as it is today, and extreme bands like Metallica, and Pantera can top the Billboard charts at #1 with albums like "Far Beyond Driven", then there is no doubt in my mind that the ECW had the potential to grow into a legitimate threat to the WWE, without toning down their product.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

Final thoughts of the day:

The only way the ECW could have been saved was with a Zuffa/UFC type of buyout. Someone who was a big fan of the company, with a bunch of money needed to buy them out. Whoever bought them out would have needed to keep Paul Hayman to keep the ECW style, but the ECW would not have been able to survive at all with him in charge of everything.

All the ECW would have needed to do was survive 2001/2002. By then there would be no more WCW, and by later on in the decade they would have been a household name, with years of PPV history, and a better chance at success. Zuffa had lost a lot of money on their UFC investment by 2003/2004, and were considering selling the company before they finally got that Spike tv deal in late 2004. It was just an awkward period that they needed to survive in order to thrive. I believe similar moves could have been made with the ECW, and the ECW would be in a similar position at the moment.

No more triple posts, or ECW threads from me, I promise!

 

[VinnieSunshine]

Nothing could've saved ECW in the end. ECW was a bloody, violent promotion that not a lot of people wanted to be involved with. The same way UFC was back in the day. It was too much for TV but not enough to warrant PPV only.

ECW was Paul's baby, he would've never have given it up to anyone AT THAT TIME...thats the key phrase.

In my belief TNN just wanted to get into the wrestling race. TBS/TNT had WCW, USA had WW(F)E, so TNN found this other lower promotion that didn't cost them much. They didn't have enough to get the main stars, and I bet the main stars weren't going to put their body through it.

For me, I knew about ECW, but never watched TNN. I never knew when ECW was on and maybe caught the tail end of 2 episodes while flipping through channels.

Paul Heyman was a SMART booker, but a horrible business man. He made promises that he couldn't keep, he promised guys money that he couldn't provide and ultimately ended up paying out of pocket. At the end of the day, TNN changed their format and Paul wasn't able to get ECW out there. Thats part of why he sold everything off to McMahon.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

Nothing could've saved ECW in the end. ECW was a bloody, violent promotion that not a lot of people wanted to be involved with. The same way UFC was back in the day. It was too much for TV but not enough to warrant PPV only.

ECW was Paul's baby, he would've never have given it up to anyone AT THAT TIME...thats the key phrase.

In my belief TNN just wanted to get into the wrestling race. TBS/TNT had WCW, USA had WW(F)E, so TNN found this other lower promotion that didn't cost them much. They didn't have enough to get the main stars, and I bet the main stars weren't going to put their body through it.

For me, I knew about ECW, but never watched TNN. I never knew when ECW was on and maybe caught the tail end of 2 episodes while flipping through channels.

Paul Heyman was a SMART booker, but a horrible business man. He made promises that he couldn't keep, he promised guys money that he couldn't provide and ultimately ended up paying out of pocket. At the end of the day, TNN changed their format and Paul wasn't able to get ECW out there. Thats part of why he sold everything off to McMahon.

Money, and better bussiness management wouldn't have saved the ECW? It saved the UFC, and they were further away from saving than the ECW was. Like you said, they were too bloody, and violent for tv. But that was over 11 years ago. I don't think they were bloody, or violent enough to get the same treatment in this day, and age. Again, I must make the point that the UFC is now broadcasting live fights on network television, in primetime. If you look at the UFC now, and look at it back when they couldn't get a tv deal to save their life, they are actually a lot more bloody, and violent now. There are a lot more bloody fights, and brutal ko's in the UFC now, than there were in 98/99/00.

I can't believe you think that even with financing, and solid management, and the lack of competition from WCW, the ECW still would have failed because of how violent it was. LOL!

As far as AT THAT TIME, if your bussiness was about to go under, and you were on the verge of looking for a new job, and someone approached you wanting to buy it, and keep you on the payroll, you wouldn't do it?

I'm noticing a theme amongst the people who believe that the "ECW would have failed because it was too violent" comes from people who mostly heard about the ECW, and never really saw that much of it. It wasn't really that bad guys. Compared to what they do in Japan, the ECW might as well be WCW Saturday Night, even before the TNN deal, besides the occasional Sabu match. Nobody was getting killed at ECW events, wish I could say the same for the WWF. That's one thing that people actually forget about the ECW, it was as fake as any other wrestling promotion, none of those guys were getting seriously injured, or in danger of losing their lives, so I don't see what was so "VIOLENT" about it. You want violence, go watch real MMA fighting, where the competitors lives are legitimately on the line, and the risk of serious injury is for real. Wrestling is fake.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

Actually ECW could have been saved if they expanded their company beyond hardcore wrestling and left extreme rules matches as a commodity, the company itself was making money, but it would never have made it to a national base without tweaking its product, Paul knew this he just kept working his talent and by the time his talent went to other companies they soon found that they weren't as special as he made them out to be.

Paul had a great way of hiding talents weaknesses and excelling their strengths and once that talent went to other companies their weaknesses became an issue and their strengths were too little to compensate for it, by the time Taz went to the WWE his neck had been destroyed, he should have been WWE's next big star but couldn't compete the same way he did for ECW, when the originals made their debute on scifi they were a shell of their former selves, without paul to cover for them their was nothing else that could be done for these guys.

But could the company itself have been saved prior to wwe buyout?, yes, but heyman needed advertisers, he needed a network that was willing to pay for his show and without those things ECW was always gonna be a mess, there is also the fact that Paul kept stiffing talent who needed to feed their families I've heard it time and time again that Pauls core talent would have stayed if it wasn't for his cheques bouncing and his broken promises.

 

[Junkfood34]

um im just gonna keep this simple and not include tna, ufc, or spike tv and stay wuth answering the question

firstly id like to point out that it all comes down ultimatly to two things

1. the fans not liking ECW like they did
2. money....it seems to me wwe didnt put alot of effort into it


now im gonna explain my two main problems and how fixing them probably coulve saved ecw


obviously one problem (and the main problem older wwe fans are having right now) is the whole pg era crap. the pg era wouldnt allow for extreme stuff to happen each and every week and this leads to another point....having more specialised matches such as extreme rules, tables, and pretty much every other non normal match there is. im not talkiung like every match on the show being one of these matchs but maybe the mainevent or something. ppl forget that the E in ecw stands for extreme and they werent very extreme towards the end. another way that wouldve saved ecw is having the same amount of titles...i would recommend the hardcore title which was the best title to be defended and the ecw tag titles. now ur all probably wondering they didnt have a big roster right? well then they shouldve incresed their roster. 2007 had the best roster b4 the pg era and after ecw got bought out by wwe. they shouldve kept both the new breed dudes and ecw originals and hire back more originals. imagine sheamus vs dreamer or rvd vs punk. also on the note of the talent wwe shouldve drafted more top guys to ecw. the best draft picks they have had in the last years of ecw was kane and matt hardy. but maybe they shouldve put some one like rey back in ecw or hell even kennedy while he was there

im hoping that explains a lot but i reckon those are the main ways that wouldve solved the two problems and if that happened we would all be watching ecw instead of the nxt crap

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

I never really noticed the parralells that the ECW drew with the UFC until this thread today. The UFC's top fighters jumped ship on them. Ken Shamrock went to the WWF at the peak of his MMA popularity, and a time when the UFC needed him the most. Most of the rest of the UFC's top fighters left the company for Japan's big money MMA league, Pride Fighting Championships. So there they were at the end of 2000, all of their headline talent jumped ship, couldn't get a tv deal if their life depended on it because of the blood, and violence. The company that owned the UFC(S.E.G.) was broke, and they were about to shut down shop. In comes Zuffa(Dana White, and the Fertitta Brothers), a group of millionaires, who just happened to be diehard UFC fans. Zuffa buys the UFC for little to nothing in January 2001.

Even though they invested a lot into the production value, and promotion of the ppv shows, as well as bringing in better quality fighters, their PPV numbers continued to sag through 2001, and 2002 due to their failure to secure a tv deal. Even after they upped the production value of their show, and glossed everything over with A+ big money quality, they still couldn't get a tv deal. They were still way too bloody, and way too violent.

So, did they change? Did they water down their product to tone down the violence? Absolutely not. Grown men ages 18 to 35 love blood, and violence. After shopping their product around to just about every network on satellite, and cable, and getting turned away, Zuffa almost cut their losses, and sold the UFC in 2003. They couldn't find a buyer for the price they wanted, so they kept on trucking, and finally in the summer of 2004, they finally got a spot on Fox Sports Net, and later that year, Spike TV came calling.

They were in worse shape that the ECW was in at that EXACT SAME TIME. The ECW was doing bigger PPV numbers because of their TNN tv time. Someone took over the UFC, and made smart moves, and wise investments, but at the same time, kept the original spirit of the UFC intact, and in doing so, they kept that small diehard original fanbase, and grew upon it.

The UFC slowly kept on growing, until they finally surpased the WWE in PPV revenues. They never toned down the violence, and I think that plays a big part in why they are more successful than the WWE is today.

This little company that was too violent for tv, and on its last leg in 2001 eventually grew, and took over a lot of the WWE's PPV marketshare. The ECW had the potential to do the same thing. People just don't realize how far gone the UFC was in late 2000. It was seriously dead. Now look at it. Live Fights on Fox, in primetime, and bigger ppv numbers than the almighty WWE.

To say that nothing would have saved the ECW is just goofy.

 

[Rowdy Robby Piper]

I think what a lot of you are forgetting is that UFC had to change in order to survive. Check out some of the original events, like the first six to eight. Back then there pretty much no rules, no weight divisions (heavyweight vs welterweight), and there was one match (Royce Gracie/Ken Shamrock, I believe) where one hold was placed for nearly 30 minutes with nothing other action taking place; that is what brought about time limits/rounds. And I don't know about the rest of you, but there was a time (at least where I lived) when the UFC was banned from pay-per-view by the cable company because it was deemed "too violent," and this was when they were trying to/just started introducing rules to keep the fights from becoming long/boring bouts with little/no action or total mismatches (see above mentioned examples).

 

[boozinjedi]

What needed to be done to save ECW?

Paul needed to hire accountants!!!

Heyman couldn't balance books to save his life!!

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

You are correct. They made the rules changes in 97(UFC XV). The rules changes were not enough to help them, as they continued to have a hard time getting on PPV.

There were only 3 UFC PPVs in 98, whereas they were doing 5 to 6 in 96/97. Much like the ECW, the cable companies continued to give the UFC a hard time about getting on PPV until the fans united, and demanded it. The UFC returned to a regular PPV schedule in 1999 after the fans petitioned the PPV networks(through a UFC internet campaign iirc). I remember when they were pushing the "9 in 99" tagline for the UFC in january, planning for 9 ppvs in 1999.

Those rules changes didn't do anything to help them get on cable tv(which was a full 7 years later), and they never made any other rules changes to accomadate any networks when they finally did get a deal.

The fact that I can tune into Spike TV(and now Fox), and see a man get knocked unconcious in a real fist fight, and then get smashed in the face 5 to 6 times after he's out, as he lays flat on his back in a pool of his own blood remains.

And this product was near death in early 2001(for the same reasons, and at the same time as the ECW. We could be watching "The Rise and Fall of the UFC" documentary these days. It was that close.), but was somehow rejuvenated, and overtook the WWE in annual PPV buyrates. That just doesn't sit well with the idea that nothing in the world could have saved the ECW, because it was too violent, and bloody.

The notion that the ECW was never meant to grow outside of a regional promotion is also goofy. The ECW had diehard fans nationwide. I grew up in Texas, and the ECW was my favorite starting around the time of the Montreal Screw Job. I liked it enough to look for it. I kept up with it by ordering the VHS tapes of ECW Hardcore TV from RF Video out of the old WOW magazines. I finally got my hands on an official ECW mail order catalogue in 99, and by then I was all but done with Monday Night wrestling, except for when a deflecting ECW wrestler would make their WCW/WWF debut or something. They even drew a crowd of almost 6,000 people in Los Angeles as late as the summer of 2000. That is all the way across the country.

The ECW was growing at a very slow pace(mostly word of mouth), but was growing up until it was announced that they had lost their TV deal. That coupled with their financial troubles that were out in the open for all ECW fans to hear about kind of squashed it.

 

[Blue Chipper]

ECW was destined to be a short-term, small-time promotion due to the violent nature of the product. ECW captured a fanbase that craved hardcore wrestling and mature content. Unfortunately for ECW, it was a small proportion of the available wrestling audience. In other words, they appealed to a niche of fans. Most wrestling fans didn't want to see that level of obscenity all of the time. It didn't appeal to the masses. As such, ECW was going to eat itself alive anyway, due to its very nature.

The only way to prevent their demise was to radically change the product, and realistically, that wasn't going to happen. Paul Heyman and his cohorts wanted this vision and this style of wrestling to play out until the death, and that's what it did.

So, unless ECW underwent some extreme (no pun intended) changes to its core, it would've ended at some point anyway.

 

[VinnieSunshine]

Money, and better bussiness management wouldn't have saved the ECW? It saved the UFC, and they were further away from saving than the ECW was. Like you said, they were too bloody, and violent for tv. But that was over 11 years ago. I don't think they were bloody, or violent enough to get the same treatment in this day, and age. Again, I must make the point that the UFC is now broadcasting live fights on network television, in primetime. If you look at the UFC now, and look at it back when they couldn't get a tv deal to save their life, they are actually a lot more bloody, and violent now. There are a lot more bloody fights, and brutal ko's in the UFC now, than there were in 98/99/00.

Yeah, and when Dana White bought UFC...he changed the ENTIRE outlook on it. There is NO WAY you can say that UFC is bloodier and more violent now than back then. Back in the PPV only days, the only thing the fighter wore were boxing shorts and there were no fight restrictions. You're talking about bare knuckle, all out MMA fighting, where guys wouldn't tap out until their arm or leg was broken. There may be blood, and some brutal KO's...but its nothing now compared to what it was. UFC back in the day was one thing and one thing only...A BLOODSPORT! Much like ECW was in its time. Sure on TV they may not have been as brutal, but their PPV's were bloody. Hell, WWE put out a DVD called "ECWs BLOODIEST MATCHES"...THAT should tell you something. ECW was on par to being as bad as Japanese death matches.

I can't believe you think that even with financing, and solid management, and the lack of competition from WCW, the ECW still would have failed because of how violent it was. LOL!

ECW was the lowest of all 3 companies. Proper management and marketing couldn't help it. No station wanted to pick up ECW on TV. Vince only picked it up so he could have the wrestlers and the library. If ECW was really destined to stay, Vince would've kept it alive.

As far as AT THAT TIME, if your bussiness was about to go under, and you were on the verge of looking for a new job, and someone approached you wanting to buy it, and keep you on the payroll, you wouldn't do it?

I said AT THAT TIME because Heyman would've NEVER sold ECW off if he didn't need to. It was poor marketing, partly on TNNs side, that was a factor in it collapsing. If I owned a business, I would fight to keep it alive, I would do what needed to be done and I would give my employees what they wanted to stay. THATS WHAT HEYMAN DID! Only he couldn't produce. He paid out of pocket salaries to his own wrestlers...not ECW money, HEYMAN MONEY. If my business got to a point that I couldn't keep it from failing...yeah Id sell it off. But I doubt Heyman sold it to McMahon to have a job. He sold it for money and to know his guys would be taken care of. Heyman knew that no matter what, the ECW legacy would never die.

I'm noticing a theme amongst the people who believe that the "ECW would have failed because it was too violent" comes from people who mostly heard about the ECW, and never really saw that much of it. It wasn't really that bad guys. Compared to what they do in Japan, the ECW might as well be WCW Saturday Night, even before the TNN deal, besides the occasional Sabu match. Nobody was getting killed at ECW events, wish I could say the same for the WWF.

Im sorry...WHAT!? Wish I could say the same thing for WWF? What are you talking about? You mean the ACCIDENT of Owen Hart? Cause thats the only death that I know of that has happened in a WWF ring or during a WWF event.

As for you other comment...I loved ECW. I knew about ECW. I never knew when it was on, but I knew about it. Borrowed my buddy's VHS tapes and watched old PPVs. But ECW WAS VIOLENT! It was built on violence. Again...no TV company wanted to have that. TNN was dropping them from programming, TBS/TNT had WCW, which owns a lot of channels, and USA had WWF, which is owned by NBC, which owns Sci-Fi and a few others. No other station wanted it cause it didn't fit programming. TNN wasn't meant to be a family-friendly network, it was and always has been a network for guys.

That's one thing that people actually forget about the ECW, it was as fake as any other wrestling promotion, none of those guys were getting seriously injured, or in danger of losing their lives, so I don't see what was so "VIOLENT" about it. You want violence, go watch real MMA fighting, where the competitors lives are legitimately on the line, and the risk of serious injury is for real. Wrestling is fake.

ECW as a WRESTLING show was fake, but I can asure you that everything else about ECW was REAL. Look at Sabu's body. The barbed wire matches...those weren't rubber, and that WASN"T fake blood. Try telling Mick Foley, Terry Funk, Sandman, Tommy Dreamer...guys that put on bloody matches...tell THEM it isn't real, that ECW was fake. Lets see you take a chair to the head, barbed wire 2x4 across your body, wrap yourself in barbed wire...you tell me that it was fake.

Stop being a square and living in the past. Open your eyes to the real world. Heyman practically admitted that there was really nothing that could've saved ECW. I suggest you watch the "Rise and Fall of ECW" DVD.