We're Watching the Long Overdue Death of the Confederate Flag Happen Before Our Eyes

[Con T.]

I think you should read the rest of my post, where I explained my counter-argument.

I did; your counter argument isn't great, and I took it upon myself to your idiocy, and make it short form.

But you really want the long form of stupidity...

The American flag, by and large, doesn't offend people. That's the difference, plain and simple. Maybe it should, I don't know. But for whatever reason, we don't connect the American flag to prejudice and racism.

We do, however, associate the southern flag with prejudice and racism. And what I'm challenging you to do is (God, I can not believe I'm going to say this...) understand your privilege to not have your history tied to enslavement, and understand that there are millions in this country not as fortunate.

Then, once you've done that, I invite you to understand that your wants pail in comparison to the wants of many others. Your feels for the confederate flag, essentially, mean jack squat.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

It means you're proud of who you are and stand up for your beliefs.

But what belief would have me claiming Southern Pride? Tell me more about this belief that justifies defending a piece of cloth that, for the majority of its existence and it's predecessors, was used to signify segregation, anti-interracial marriages, and just about every other form of racism/xenophobia in America?

Please explain to me what belief a southerner would hold on to that warrants defending that flag. As an Arkansan I implore you on this.

 

[Con T.]

You know, fucktruck over here (clue; not Spider) seems to want to keep insulated in his opinions, so I think there's a better way to do this.

Spidey, you come from Arknasas, yes? Have you ever had this knowledge of southern pride and heritage, and is it as inmate as it seems fucktruck over here would like to have you believe?

Or, is it more likely a case of fucktruck over here clutching to his insulated point of view, by grasping at straws?

 

[Spidey Revivey]

You know, fucktruck over here (clue; not Spider) seems to want to keep insulated in his opinions, so I think there's a better way to do this.

Spidey, you come from Arknasas, yes? Have you ever had this knowledge of southern pride and heritage, and is it as inmate as it seems fucktruck over here would like to have you believe?

Or, is it more likely a case of fucktruck over here clutching to his insulated point of view, by grasping at straws?

This southern pride thing is just weird as shit to me. I get holding onto certain traditions, like hospitality, but that has fuck all to do with being from a certain place in the world. I hate generalizing, but the only people I know that have such a hard-on for Ol' Dixie just happen to have a really inhumane opinion on black people, the gays, and don't get me started on their views on Islam.

Fucktruck has probably grown up with these particular views around him. I can't fault somebody who doesn't have a choice on their upbringing, but holy shit history clearly tells us that the flag comes from an enemy of the UNITED States. It has a place in a museum.

People that clamor to that flag instead of those that suffered due to what that flag stands for really creeps me out.

 

[Rayne]

We should ju stagree to disagree. I have my beliefs, and I'm not changing them. That's part of being from the South. You have your beliefs, and you don't change them because a lot of people have other beliefs.

If you aren't coming to a discussion board to discuss things, why on earth are you here? Are you just shouting your opinions at people so that they know you exist? Or were you hoping to post your opinion and convince other people of the validity of your beliefs? (Like ordinary, honest people do in conversation.)

You can believe that 2+2=6, and we can agree to disagree all day on that. Holding onto your beliefs is meaningless if you aren't willing to examine them and realize that sometimes, like every other person in the world, you can be wrong too.

 

[Con T.]

I'm through with this thread. It's a waste of time. You guys have different views, and that's fine. You guys don't understand what I'm trying to say, and that's fine.

No, I think we understand perfectly. You don't view a flag that has racist connotations as that bad a thing. That's fine.

Just, you know, don't be shocked when you wind up looking really dumb.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I believe the confederate flag represents southern pride and heritage

And you are incorrect. Well, except the heritage part. which is beyond fucking wild to me. Why on earth you would want to beat your chest over "heritage" that is predominantly known for owning other human beings as property and committing treason is beyond me.

I can go the top of this building and "believe" after I jump off it, I will not hit the ground. This does not make my belief correct, and I will, invariably, hit the ground.

You can "believe" whatever you want, it does not change what a symbol represents.

The Nazis took the majority of their iconography from Scandanavian and old Norse symbols. I happen to be of Scandanavian descent, my family going back generations in Norway. I would love to use my heritage's iconography and symbols, but while looking at them I realize what the majority of them now stand for TO THE REST OF THE FUCKING WORLD and thus, this is now their meaning. It has nothing to do with debate, or belief.

Southerners stand for their beliefs;

Which is different than anyone else, how, exactly?

it doesn't matter what they are.

Ah, I get it now. You know that's the definition of "willful ignorance" right?

Because 9 people got killed, people want to take a flag down. What good will that do?

When you say the south, do you mean the south of Mars? Because surely you don't reside on this planet.

I feel like people are trying to change the meaning of something because of one incident

The irony of this is so good, and thick, I could spread it over your mother's home made breakfast biscuits.

Boy, it sure is ridiculous when people try to change the meaning of something just because it makes them feel a certain way, isn't it?


Also, change the meaning of something because of one incident? Im gonna have to hold court with the old timers around here, but that has got to be one of the top ten brain dead posts in the history of this forum....Mostly because you are likely 100% serious.

It means you're proud of who you are and stand up for your beliefs.

Which is exclusive to the South in what particular way?

That's part of being from the South. You have your beliefs, and you don't change them because a lot of people have other beliefs.

Do you sincerely think this is something that is complimentary of your region? What if a southerner was taught as a child to bite the heads off of frogs because it grants them the ability to fly? To have sex with their siblings? "WELL THATS JUST THE WAY WE DO IT ROUND HURR AND WE AINT CHANGING IT JUST BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE DONT AGREE" ? They are unequivocally incorrect, and should be corrected.




As far as you claiming others don't get what you are trying to say.....I do not think its anyone else's mental capacity which is in question here.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

If people want to fly it on their property, that's their business. I personally won't demand that anyone take it down, but those same people shouldn't be surprised or pissed off if they're accused of having racist views. No matter if they're genuine that they feel the flag represents part of their culture and heritage, the simple fact of the matter is that a considerable majority of Americans, both black and white, see it as a symbol of racism and oppression.

I saw on the news yesterday one of the Republican politicians of South Carolina at the assembly to discuss removing the flag say something to the effect of that the flag represents history and that removing it won't change history and that's true. However, the flag is seen as a symbol of racial oppression by so many and was the flag of an enemy country born out of treason; as a result, they don't believe it should be flying above a government building. As far as the historical relevance of the flag, there are museums, there are history books, there are countless images of it online, etc. so removing it won't cause people to forget the history associated with it.

Since this debate began, I've heard some state that the Civil War wasn't just about slavery, but it was also about states' rights and that's true to some degree. However, slaver was still the central issue because a good portion of the states' rights argument was that the south not only wanted to preserve slavery, but they wanted to expand it into other territories that hadn't attained statehood. Agriculture, primarily the production of cotton, was THE economy of the south with large farms and plantations needing slaves to work the fields. One major reason why the south wanted slavery expanded was because the soil was no longer yielding the sort of crop that it once was due to decade after decade of overproduction. Most of the industry in terms of textiles, various mills, factories, the railroad, etc. was located in the north, so agriculture was really just about all the south had, which means the ending of slavery would essentially put an end to the gravy train as these large farm and plantation owners would have to start paying people to work their fields and they most certainly didn't want that.

As for the asinine comparison with the gay flag, it'd be laughable if it wasn't such a sad and desperate attempt to compare apples and oranges. Gays have suffered from prejudice and inequality, that's true, but it doesn't compare to the suffering of Africans and their descendants used as slaves. Millions upon millions were stripped of their humanity and were viewed as inferior human property.

As a southerner, I personally don't see the flag as a symbol of heritage or pride because slavery is irreversibly linked to it; that's just how it is and there's no getting around it no matter how we try to justify it. I see nothing prideful about when it comes to supporting a flag that was used by an army fighting to preserve their right to own and treat other human beings as property.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I saw on the news yesterday one of the Republican politicians of South Carolina at the assembly to discuss removing the flag say something to the effect of that the flag represents history and that removing it won't change history and that's true.

I guess this is the part of this that continually blows my mind.


How can people say in the same breath that it doesn't represent racism and oppression, it represents history, and then when informed that said history was a war over slavery(the institutions of which are an example of the actual dictionary definition of racism...the belief that one race is genetically superior to another) ....they then say well taking it down won't change history?

There is literally no way to say something represents history and heritage, not racism, when that history and heritage is COMPRISED MOSTLY OF RASCISM

You can not THEN proceed to say "well taking it down won't change what happened".....You don't get to have it both ways. Its such monumentally transparent, used-car salesmen horseshit.

Taking the Nazi flag down did not erase the holocaust, but its damn sure illegal as fuck to fly that flag or even speak of it in Germany, and no one in their right fucking mind would fly it while denying what it represents. "Oh, it represents a time of economic boom and independence for Germany".....This is how foolish you sound.

 

[Slyfox696]

I believe all are created equal. Regardless of race.

Then you're not standing up for your southern beliefs, because the South has long held black people are inferior to white people. From fighting a war to keep slaves, to the KKK, Jim Crow laws, fighting the desgregation of schools...the South has long believed white people are superior.

For someone who is constantly talking about standing up for your beliefs, you sure aren't aligning your beliefs with the South and the confederate flag.

The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism and hate but rather a symbol of southern pride

It only became a "symbol of southern pride" after southerners wanted to deflect from the fact it was a symbol racism and oppression.

Sure, the South was racist at one point

At one point? How about for the majority of its existence in this country? Not to mention, the racism which still exists.

Using this same logic, we should never raise the American flag. Just because America as a whole was racist at one point in time.

The American flag was never the symbol of racism, not to mention the American flag is the flag of this country. The Confederate flag is not, it's the flag of rebellion.

Countries and symbols can change, and some thankfully did.

If you killed 7 people tomorrow and in 50 years you've "changed" to no longer be a murderer, it wouldn't change the fact you killed seven people and the memory of your deed would not be forgotten.

See if you can understand why I mention this.

I guess this is the part of this that continually blows my mind.


How can people say in the same breath that it doesn't represent racism and oppression, it represents history, and then when informed that said history was a war over slavery(the institutions of which are an example of the actual dictionary definition of racism...the belief that one race is genetically superior to another) ....they then say well taking it down won't change history?

There is literally no way to say something represents history and heritage, not racism, when that history and heritage is COMPRISED MOSTLY OF RASCISM

You can not THEN proceed to say "well taking it down won't change what happened".....You don't get to have it both ways. Its such monumentally transparent, used-car salesmen horseshit.

Taking the Nazi flag down did not erase the holocaust, but its damn sure illegal as fuck to fly that flag or even speak of it in Germany, and no one in their right fucking mind would fly it while denying what it represents. "Oh, it represents a time of economic boom and independence for Germany".....This is how foolish you sound.

I understand the "being proud of where you come from". I get that, I really do. But if people feel the only way to feel proud of from where they come is one symbol on a flag, a symbol which represents nothing good, then I suspect their southern pride isn't very deep.

 

[jmt225]

Let's be honest for one second though...

The Confederate Flag looks cool. I mean, seriously, can anyone deny that it's a cooler looking flag than the United States flag?

I honestly believe if the flag looked like Dusty Rhodes polka dot wrestling gear, hardly anyone would care (only true hardcore KKK level rednecks would). But people are attached to the stupid thing because it looks cool. It's why even certain rappers have had confederate flags represented in their videos and clothing.

That said, anyone actually upset over the flag getting banned is being ridiculous. Who cares about its true heritage? None of us were around back then so all we have is what history taught all of us at a young age, and that is that this flag represents racism and oppression. That's literally what we've all been taught, even if it's not 100% true, that's what people are taught, therefore that's what the flag represents to the majority of the country at the end of the day. So people need to just accept that and stop caring about it. It's just a fucking flag, after all, a stupid symbol. It's really baffling to me that people can get this upset over a flag not being sold or raised in front of a capital building.

 

[Slyfox696]

The Confederate Flag looks cool. I mean, seriously, can anyone deny that it's a cooler looking flag than the United States flag?

Umm, yes. I've never liked the Confederate flag at all. The American flag is a much better looking flag.

 

[jmt225]

Umm, yes. I've never liked the Confederate flag at all. The American flag is a much better looking flag.

That's fair, but I think the X is what people are drawn to. It kind of represents anti-establishment and is just the coolest letter in the alphabet, lol. Abbreviates "Christ", Degeneration X, X-Men, punk music, roman numeral for 10... the X is what people love about it, no doubt.

 

[Rayne]

That said, anyone actually upset over the flag getting banned is being ridiculous. Who cares about its true heritage? None of us were around back then so all we have is what history taught all of us at a young age, and that is that this flag represents racism and oppression. That's literally what we've all been taught, even if it's not 100% true, that's what people are taught, therefore that's what the flag represents to the majority of the country at the end of the day. So people need to just accept that and stop caring about it. It's just a fucking flag, after all, a stupid symbol. It's really baffling to me that people can get this upset over a flag not being sold or raised in front of a capital building.

I can actually understand why people would get upset about this, and how someone could come to think that the Confederate Flag represents things like Southern Pride and heritage. The meaning of symbols has a way of shifting over time. The Christian cross originally had many of the same connotations as a noose, yet the success of Christianity as a political force led it to become representative of a church, instead of a torture device. The swastika was a symbol in Hinduism and Buddhism representing wellness of spirit (the exact translation doesn't English well), and through the political success of National Socialism, became associated with all kinds of horrible shit.

The Confederate flag is no different. You're going to have an extremely tough time finding pictures of the Confederate flag from 1866-1963 (that doesn't include KKK members in the background), because at that point, the Confederate flag was a symbol representing a thoroughly defeated army. In 1964, the United States Congress passed the Civil Rights Act over the strenuous objections of Southern Democrats. The Confederate flag was brought out of storage to represent opposition to the CRA, and in 1965 several Southern legislatures either passed bills allowing the government display of the Confederate flag, or in some cases, incorporated elements of the Confederate flag into their own state flags. (Most of these designs have been replaced since, with the notable exception of, of course, Mississippi- who actually voted to place elements of the Confederate flag into their own design in 2001.)

As has happened pretty much throughout the history of this great country, the South found themselves behind the times, and eventually realized it. It became unpolitic to refer to its reestablishment in opposition to the CRA, but people still wanted it to represent those ideas; so code phrases like "Southern Pride" and "States' Rights" started to come into vogue. (The phrase "States' Rights" was by and large resurrected by Ronald Reagan in his 1980 Presidential campaign in an attempt to bring in the Southern vote. Everyone knew what he meant.)

So people have been using these code words now for over thirty-five years- almost two generations- meaning a good half of the population wasn't alive for the time when it represented opposition to the Civil Rights Act. For them, all of their life, the Confederate Flag has represented "Southern Pride" and "States' Rights".

It comes down to an ignorance of history (or more specifically, cherry-picking the history that people want to remember.) That still doesn't change the fact that there are a great deal of people out there who simply weren't around while it was an outright symbol of racism. Being unaware of this history, it's understandable that they'd get upset when people call them racists for flying it.

Which of course doesn't change the history of the flag, but it is what it is. It'll be a quaint thing in twenty years, that kids find hanging in their grandfather's rec room.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Ok, I get it. Calm down guys. You all think the confederate flag represents racism and hate. That's fine. I don't, but it's clear you all disagree.

I'm not flying the confederate flag in my backyard because I realize most people connect it with the past of the South.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. A majority of the people in the South was racist for a long time, but they changed.

Why can't the symbol that represents the South change as well?

 

[Akhilleus]

Ok, I get it. Calm down guys. You all think the confederate flag represents racism and hate. That's fine. I don't, but it's clear you all disagree.

I'm not flying the confederate flag in my backyard because I realize most people connect it with the past of the South.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. A majority of the people in the South was racist for a long time, but they changed.

Why can't the symbol that represents the South change as well?

You sure came back awfully fast after saying you were done arguing and wanting to "agree to disagree".

Why can't the symbol that represents racism and hate change? Well while we're at it let's make the Swastika back into a symbol of peace and happiness. We can change the meaning of the middle finger into a friendly hello as well. Let's turn the pentagram into the symbol for feminism, just because right? Why do you want it to change? It is that symbol for a reason, that is history. You cannot change what history is. All you can do is accept it. And by accept it, that doesn't mean wave the flag around with ignorance and pretend it doesn't mean what it really means.

I don't understand what is so special about that flag that makes people want to embrace it so much. That they want to change the entire meaning of it. You want a symbol of the south? Make a new flag! Why use the old one? It was the symbol of a four year failed rebellion of a bunch of racist slave owners who didn't want to give up the right to own other human beings. What is the point of taking that symbol and changing the meaning of it?

The funniest thing about this is how some people think that you can change something like the Confederate Flag, a long time symbol of hate and racism. But think you shouldn't be able to change your given gender because that's the way you were meant to be. Interesting, huh? Well in this case we can just say that the Confederate Flag is what is was always meant to be and always will be...the logo of racist bigotry and ignorance of human rights.

 

[Con T.]

Why can't the symbol that represents the South change as well?

Just a thought, and I may be crazy. But hear me out. Maybe, the fact that it's 2015, and the flag is coming down just now, after an atrocity of a hate crime, means the south hasn't changed all that much.

 

[Rayne]

Ok, I get it. Calm down guys. You all think the confederate flag represents racism and hate. That's fine. I don't, but it's clear you all disagree.

I'm not flying the confederate flag in my backyard because I realize most people connect it with the past of the South.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. A majority of the people in the South was racist for a long time, but they changed.

Why can't the symbol that represents the South change as well?

The vast majority of Germany is now not in favor of gassing the Jews and other misfits of society, yet flying the swastika is still considered extremely rude. (And in the case of Germany, actually illegal.)

But if we actually read what you're saying here, you're saying that you don't fly the Confederate Flag specifically because you know most people connect it with the history of racism in the south. Because, yes, it was a direct symbol of the South flaunting their racism in the 1960's on forward.

You're in that uncanny valley where you understand that flying the Confederate Flag is kind of embarrassing, but that Southern Pride don't let you change your mind for nuthin'. I guess I won't ever understand that.

 

[Navdeep]

You sure came back awfully fast after saying you were done arguing and wanting to "agree to disagree".

Why can't the symbol that represents racism and hate change? Well while we're at it let's make the Swastika back into a symbol of peace and happiness. We can change the meaning of the middle finger into a friendly hello as well. Let's turn the pentagram into the symbol for feminism, just because right? Why do you want it to change? It is that symbol for a reason, that is history. You cannot change what history is. All you can do is accept it. And by accept it, that doesn't mean wave the flag around with ignorance and pretend it doesn't mean what it really means.

I don't understand what is so special about that flag that makes people want to embrace it so much. That they want to change the entire meaning of it. You want a symbol of the south? Make a new flag! Why use the old one? It was the symbol of a four year failed rebellion of a bunch of racist slave owners who didn't want to give up the right to own other human beings. What is the point of taking that symbol and changing the meaning of it?

The funniest thing about this is how some people think that you can change something like the Confederate Flag, a long time symbol of hate and racism. But think you shouldn't be able to change your given gender because that's the way you were meant to be. Interesting, huh? Well in this case we can just say that the Confederate Flag is what is was always meant to be and always will be...the logo of racist bigotry and ignorance of human rights.

Swastika has nothing to do with hatred or Jews, it is a religious symbol for Hindus, even I wear a locket with swastika sign.
It is just like saying if I kill a person with cross, will everyone will going to call a cross as a symbol of murder.

 

[Con T.]

Swastika has nothing to do with hatred or Jews, it is a religious symbol for Hindus, even I wear a locket with swastika sign.
It is just like saying if I kill a person with cross, will everyone will going to call a cross as a symbol of murder.

Dude; I'm Jewish. I know the origins of the swastika, but you can't say that the swastika has nothing to do with hatred and Jews. Was that the created purpose of the swastika? No, absolutely not. But, at least in America, that symbol has come to stand, for me, the slaughter of millions of my people, and the symbol for millions of white supremacists.

We can have different interpretations of this symbol, but it does no good to pretend the other element of its history doesn't exist.

 

[Navdeep]

Dude; I'm Jewish. I know the origins of the swastika, but you can't say that the swastika has nothing to do with hatred and Jews. Was that the created purpose of the swastika? No, absolutely not. But, at least in America, that symbol has come to stand, for me, the slaughter of millions of my people, and the symbol for millions of white supremacists.

We can have different interpretations of this symbol, but it does no good to pretend the other element of its history doesn't exist.

Friend it is wrong , I have already given a anology let me give you another , white man sold blacks, murdered them , made them slave , never gave them equal rights and that too in millions so by default every black should hate every white and try to kill him.

 

[Navdeep]

And last don't relate swastika with Jews, if anything Hitler used Christian ideologies so people should hate Christian ideologies just like I hate Hindus caste system.

 

[Rayne]

And last don't relate swastika with Jews, if anything Hitler used Christian ideologies so people should hate Christian ideologies just like I hate Hindus caste system.

Before people go off the handle here, would it be correct to assume that you live in an area east of the Urals and not Russia?

Symbols have a way of changing over time, and frequently groups will adopt a symbol for their own. If that group is particularly successful, the meaning of the symbol will change for a great deal of people. In the West, the swastika is almost universally associated with German National Socialism, as the Nazi Party had a massive impact on the history of the West- much more so than the Hindu understanding of the swastika.

I'd avoid the 'just like' comparisons though. An apple is just like a cow, since they're both made from organic matter; a building is just like a pocket knife since they both contain steel. If we're going to compare apples to cows, it would help to display to people how you reached that conclusion.

 

[Барбоса]

Hitler used all kinds of symbols - Christian, Norse, Hindu, occult, skull and crossbones - but by far the most prominent was the swastika due to its place as the symbol of the Nazi Party and then Nazi Germany as its armies slaughtered its way across Europe and beyond.

If there is anything that can change the meaning of a very,very old symbol of peace to something far more sinister, it is its association with two of the worst things to have happened in recorded history.

There is certainly widespread ignorance of the swastika's place as a peaceful symbol but it is wilful ignorance to deny that it is now so much more associated with Nazism and all of its crimes.

It is the same with the symbols of the Confederacy.

 

[Rayne]

There is certainly widespread ignorance of the swastika's place as a peaceful symbol but it is wilful ignorance to deny that it is now so much more associated with Nazism and all of its crimes.

Well, that really depends on where you live. Nazism had very little effect outside of Europe (including the Soviet Union in Europe for the sake of argument). It's entirely understandable that someone from an Eastern culture would be aware of the swastika's use by the Nazi regime, yet associate it more closely with either Hinduism or Buddhism.

For example, thumbs-up in America typically indicates approval. If you were to give a thumbs-up to an Italian, you might get punched. Nazism had a massive impact on Western history, but their influence in the East was very limited.

In the case of the Confederate Flag, the issue we're going through is that we have two groups who associate it with different things, and those groups live in close enough proximity to each other that there's reason to debate the meaning of the symbol. The hang-up we're having is that it was a symbol adopted specifically for a racist cause (opposition to the CRA), and over time the use of code words has muddled the meaning as people grew up around those code words and took them literally.