We're Watching the Long Overdue Death of the Confederate Flag Happen Before Our Eyes

[It's Damn Real!]

Amidst the rightful outrage that the Confederate flag was still flying high above South Carolina's court house following the Charlestown massacre (because it's affixed and not on the pulley system that allows it to be lowered to half staff, as all others were), a national movement seemed to be gaining traction by the minute as conversations on social media and traditional media rallied around the story.

Just a day later, give or take, and there's a snowball effect in place.

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley called for the removal of the Confederate flag from the Statehouse grounds on Monday, South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham echoed the same call (shifting his position after I'm sure he was pressured).

Walmart, Amazon, Sears and eBay will stop selling Confederate flag merchandise.

Mississippi and Tennessee are debating the future of their state flags, which pay homage to the Confederate flag, and Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe plans to phase out the Confederate flag from the state's license plate.

This won't answer the nation-wide issue of gun violence, mental health or racism (not entirely), but it's a great starting point considering what that flag has represented from day one.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Being from what's traditionally viewed as a southern state, I have to say that I honestly don't understand why so many people from southern states are fighting this. Most of the reasons I've read involves claims that it represents heritage or roots and, again, it boggles me that it's something they want connected with them.

The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia may have begun its existence as ultimately that, just a flag to represent a certain part of the Confederate army, but people need to wake up and accept that the flag has come to mean something more menacing. As I said in a previous post in a similar thread, the flag itself has been used by people as a visual means of expressing their racist views really since the end of the Civil War; the original intention of the flag as a battle standard has been supplanted by the fact that it's come to represent white supremacy. How's that? Because it's been adopted by just about every notable white supremacist group that's been in operation in the United States since the end of the Civil War; it's been adopted by the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Brotherhood, Aryan Nations, American Nazi Party and the list just goes on.

Some also like the flag as it's a symbol of rebellion and there are still some who have some sort of crazy, adolescent belief that it's "cool" to be a rebel which, as a southerner, is part of the idiocy that bothers me the most. The Confederate States of America was born out of treason, the single most treasonous act in the history of the country and, as such, was an enemy nation that declared war because they ultimately felt that they had the right to continue using Africans and their descendants as property. I don't see what's so glorious about that, nor do I see anything remotely noble or romantic about it.

 

[Akhilleus]

Anyone who says the Confederate Flag is anything other than what it really is, does not know history. They're like the redneck version of hipsters. It is called the Confederate Flag because it is the flag of the Confederacy. The Confederacy, you know...the group of people who seceded from the United States because they did not want to give up their right to own other human beings, and thus started a war killing almost 700,000 men. That is history. It doesn't not represent rebellion, it represents the support of Slavery. It is almost in the same ballpark as a Swastika, a symbol used by the Nazi Party and logo to spread propaganda about the Jewish race.

Many people who are in support of the Confederate Flag would argue that everything I just said is false, but it's the simple facts. It is the flag of a failed rebellion, a rebellion that was started in protest of emancipation. Even if people who hang that flag with pride think otherwise, that is how it started.

Why is it so important? Heritage to slave owners? We often say why do we take the blame for something our ancestors did (Held slaves)...but yet we had flags raised outside our government buildings supporting what they did up until last week. Protest? What does that protest other than what the Confederacy believed in. Protest is fine and dandy, in fact it is under your constitutional right. But unless you are protesting the same thing the Confederacy was protesting, there is no need to have that flag. If you want to protest gun control, make your own flag.

I personally don't understand it. The Confederacy rebelled, and then they lost. They failed...you jump off the bandwagon of your sports teams when they go on a losing streak, but you hold the flag of a failed rebellion from over 150 years ago?

It is time to move on from the Confederate Flag.

 

[Torgo]

The gay flag offends me. Take it down. No? You sure? Because that is the logic here.

The flag is a symbol of heritage for some people. It is their right to fly it. Skinheads have the right to fly the Nazi flag. We all might disagree with it, but they have the right to fly it.

Also, what the hell does this have to do with GUN VIOLENCE? Because some racist POS decided to shoot up a black church, we address the issue of gun violence with taking away a flag? Am I missing something here?

Bottom line is they have the right to fly it under the First Amendment. Disagree with it? GROW THE FUCK UP.

 

[Akhilleus]

No one is saying that they don't have the right to fly it. It's not like they are making laws that say it is illegal to own a confederate flag. You're right, people can fly it just as much as they can fly the Nazi flag.

But it is offensive, it is controversial. Hence the reason why it is no longer being produced by major store outlets and being hoisted by official government buildings. Just like the Nazi flag.

These things are based on general opinions. That's what political correctness is. And the general opinion is that the confederate flag is offensive, and the general opinion is that gay pride is not offensive. Minority opinions obviously will disagree, but they are in the minority and in this case majority rule.

In my liberal opinion, to compare the Confederate flag to the Gay Pride flag is a long stretch. We're talking about civil rights, which is what Gay Pride is formerly based around. While the Confederate Flag is based around rebels who were against the thought of civil rights. So you can suggest we grow up because we as a common group easily find things offensive, but maybe it is more so important for people who are causing the offense to grow up instead. If you are punching or hurting me, am I the wrong one because I don't want to take the pain? I would imagine it would be the person who is delivering the pain in the wrong.

I understand that in this day and age people are way too sensitive, and way too worried about being "politically correct". People can still fly the Confederate flag all they want, but just like people who fly the Nazi flag they will be looked at by a majority of people in disgust. That is why stores aren't selling them, that is why government buildings aren't flying it anymore.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

The gay flag offends me. Take it down. No? You sure? Because that is the logic here.

The flag is a symbol of heritage for some people. It is their right to fly it. Skinheads have the right to fly the Nazi flag. We all might disagree with it, but they have the right to fly it.

Also, what the hell does this have to do with GUN VIOLENCE? Because some racist POS decided to shoot up a black church, we address the issue of gun violence with taking away a flag? Am I missing something here?

Bottom line is they have the right to fly it under the First Amendment. Disagree with it? GROW THE FUCK UP.

"They" have a right to fly it so long as "they" are citizens of the U.S. doing so on private property.

That "right" ends the moment you are on government grounds, like a State Capitol building, courthouse or public park, for example.

And to be clear, no flag should be flown over the American flag at any of these cites with exception to something like a State flag or military branch flag. And these also do not fly above the American flag. They fly below it.

Disagree with it? Get a fucking book. A history book. One that covers the Constitution and the Laws of government post Civil War.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

My fellow Americans, can you imagine if you were born in another country and you asked an American friend what the Rebel Flag is? Will they tell you about how it was used to symbolize the side that fought over the rights to owning a human being? How comfortable that topic must be to have.

It's an embarrassment to a modern world, and there is no heritage in a shred of cloth.

 

[Rayne]

The gay flag offends me. Take it down. No? You sure? Because that is the logic here.

The flag is a symbol of heritage for some people. It is their right to fly it. Skinheads have the right to fly the Nazi flag. We all might disagree with it, but they have the right to fly it.

Also, what the hell does this have to do with GUN VIOLENCE? Because some racist POS decided to shoot up a black church, we address the issue of gun violence with taking away a flag? Am I missing something here?

Bottom line is they have the right to fly it under the First Amendment. Disagree with it? GROW THE FUCK UP.

Actually, no, a state government does NOT have the right to fly it under the First Amendment, as government exists for the purpose of representing the people. If the people decide that they don't want to have the flag flying over their state capitol (as expressed by the votes of their representatives in state Congress), then the state doesn't have the right to fly that flag.

The First Amendment merely says that the government will establish no law restricting an individual's right to freedom of speech, expression, religion, etc. You can still wear your Confederate flag t-shirt to the gallery in South Carolina Congress, and no one will stop you.

However, you seem to be missing the whole point of the First Amendment when you tell people who disagree with you to "GROW THE FUCK UP". See, the First Amendment is a two-way street. People are free to express their distaste over a symbol which was resurrected from the Civil War in 1965 by Southern governments expressing their distaste over the Civil Rights Act. (History books. People seem to be reading only the parts they like lately.) So while one person is allowed to display the Confederate flag however they choose (including by getting their elected representatives to design a law to display it on state property), other people are free to say, "wow, look at the backwards racist idiot". You're also free to say "GROW THE FUCK UP", and someone else is free to use a history book and the Bill of Rights to demonstrate your stupidity.

To be fair though, it is a valid point to wonder why the hell the Confederate Flag is under discussion as the result of a mass homicide, instead of pretending that we're going to take action on gun control and mental health for-reals-this-time-promise.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Actually, no, a state government does NOT have the right to fly it under the First Amendment, as government exists for the purpose of representing the people. If the people decide that they don't want to have the flag flying over their state capitol (as expressed by the votes of their representatives in state Congress), then the state doesn't have the right to fly that flag.

The First Amendment merely says that the government will establish no law restricting an individual's right to freedom of speech, expression, religion, etc. You can still wear your Confederate flag t-shirt to the gallery in South Carolina Congress, and no one will stop you.

However, you seem to be missing the whole point of the First Amendment when you tell people who disagree with you to "GROW THE FUCK UP". See, the First Amendment is a two-way street. People are free to express their distaste over a symbol which was resurrected from the Civil War in 1965 by Southern governments expressing their distaste over the Civil Rights Act. (History books. People seem to be reading only the parts they like lately.) So while one person is allowed to display the Confederate flag however they choose (including by getting their elected representatives to design a law to display it on state property), other people are free to say, "wow, look at the backwards racist idiot". You're also free to say "GROW THE FUCK UP", and someone else is free to use a history book and the Bill of Rights to demonstrate your stupidity.

To be fair though, it is a valid point to wonder why the hell the Confederate Flag is under discussion as the result of a mass homicide, instead of pretending that we're going to take action on gun control and mental health for-reals-this-time-promise.

Because someone had to take the fall, and there's little to no lobby money or vested interest in the Confederate flag. We both know this.

That said, this isn't a bad thing to have happen either. The flag itself is a representation if bigotry and hatred, so if this is the first step toward a larger national discussion on such events, so be it. Even if it doesn't feel like the "right" response just yet to yet another mass shooting.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

It's an embarrassment to a modern world, and there is no heritage in a shred of cloth.

Oh there is heritage in it for sure!!










Heritage of shameful human oppression.


People do have the right to fly it, and be seen appropriately as an insensitive, derisive asshat. Similarly, if a company does not appreciate its connotations, they do not have to sell it.


It also happens to be the flag of, or representation of (for the neckbeards) the flag of a foreign enemy of the united states. Whom we defeated. It has no more business flying at a government building than Japans rising sun or the Nazi flag.

 

[enviousdominous]

If you threaten a small smidge of power from the giant pot of powerful bullshit that some affluent white people enjoy (myself included), they'll whip up any random stupid excuse to hold onto it.

Have your heritage, that's all fucking fabulous. The Confederacy that lost the civil war is represented today by the flag of northern Virginia, and of course those who want to nit-pick their way into a long winded shit-storm masquerading as an actual debate want to split hairs to no end over that one simple concept.

The stars and bars rebel flag represents that very special kind of abhorrent racism that represents a shameful chunk of our nation's history where children of black slaves were sold immediately after child birth and five black people were considered only worth three white people when it came to census data. A lynched black man was as much a warning to black outsiders as the rebel flag, the idea being that a white man can walk tall and bang all the women he wants to bang without fear of a young black man interfering with his pussy/money agenda.

People love the rebel flag because they're fucking stupid, that's the beginning and the end of that debate. They're stupid for demanding that it remain on tax funded soil, and they're stupid for ripping a nasty cloud of "It's only because of tradition" when someone suggests that its presence upsets them.

Racists are often sociopaths, they'll admit their racism in every possible way except for actually saying "I am a racist".

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

I believe, and you can disagree, that the confederate flag represents southern heritage and pride. It means you stand for your beliefs, regardless of what they are. Some believe it represents racism, but I don't think so. Besides, we should be focusing on the fact that 9 people were killed, rather than a flag.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Please try to avoid using logic on these forums. Some people just can't take it. In all seriousness though, I completely agree with this.

Like I already said, "they have the right to fly it" is true so long as "they" in that sentence means individual American citizens not doing so on government grounds or public property.

You, as an American citizen, have the inalienable right to believe in anything you want, no matter how inane it may seem to everyone else. So if you want to believe the Confederate flag is a symbol of pride, and that that pride isn't steeped with hatred, by all means. Just don't expect it to be flown over a U.S. court house.

 

[Rayne]

I believe, and you can disagree, that the confederate flag represents southern heritage and pride. It means you stand for your beliefs, regardless of what they are. Some believe it represents racism, but I don't think so. Besides, we should be focusing on the fact that 9 people were killed, rather than a flag.

That's a statement of belief, not logic.

 

[enviousdominous]

The gay flag offends me. Take it down. No? You sure? Because that is the logic here.

I'm sorry, your fucking stupid imaginary conversation caught my attention. The logic that you've imagined is that the reasons for which the rebel flag offends some people are completely in tune with the reasons for which the *ahem* gay flag offends you.

Strange. I consider myself to be a history buff, but I can't recall that era of our history where the rainbow flag was flown to represent an insurgency of states who refused to stop exploiting the suffering of black people.

Look, I'll be serious. You're a homophobic jack-off and you want to use the idea of same-sex couples being recognized as individuals worthy of individual rights to emphasize how an effort to take down the rebel flag is a contradictory endeavor because an idea as fucking stupid as that was intelligent enough to convince you.

The logic is different because the two flags represent two very different efforts, all you're able to consider is that gay people disgust you and that your homophobia must somehow relate to the lawful suffering and enslavement of black people. Some of us are a little further ahead than you.

The flag is a symbol of heritage for some people. It is their right to fly it. Skinheads have the right to fly the Nazi flag. We all might disagree with it, but they have the right to fly it.

Oh for fucks sake. This is what it is to debate a six year old. The flag is "heritage" for some people? No fucking way! What's really fucking funny about that statement is that on the other end of this horribly deformed spectrum of asinine logic there are people claiming that the flag is no big deal because it was just the flag of northern Virginia and therefore didn't actually represent the Confederate States and thus we can't use the racist heritage of the Confederacy as an excuse to take the flag down. In that case the flag represented nothing, and on the opposite end (yours) the flag represented the "heritage" that maintained that black people were better off as slaves.

Nobody is saying that some guy who flies the rebel flag on his own lawn should be forced to take it down, no state or federal building flies the nazi flag. I shouldn't have had to explain any of that, but again, I'm debating a six year old.

Also, what the hell does this have to do with GUN VIOLENCE? Because some racist POS decided to shoot up a black church, we address the issue of gun violence with taking away a flag? Am I missing something here?

What does this have to do with guns? I want to strangle you, I fucking mean that. You're bringing up hot button issues only because you've been manipulated into associating them, nobody is talking about gun violence. You're the only fucking person who wants to discuss gun violence in association with the taking down of the rebel flag. What you're missing is the logic train.

Bottom line is they have the right to fly it under the First Amendment. Disagree with it? GROW THE FUCK UP.

The..first..amend..oh good fucking grief. You're apparently of the delusion that everything that offends someone should be mandated to occur, as though the first amendment is more of a law than a right. You're confusing the rights of private citizens with the opinions of one fucking idiot (you) versus the opinions of the constituency that funds the land that you want a fucking rebel flag to fly on.

Growing up is the worst thing that can ever happen to someone. You develop a perspective that actually cares about concepts like understanding before placing judgement and you end up depressed because you have to relate that kind of maturity unto fucking morons who watch way too much Fox News.

 

[enviousdominous]

I believe, and you can disagree, that the confederate flag represents southern heritage and pride. It means you stand for your beliefs, regardless of what they are. Some believe it represents racism, but I don't think so.

That's a fun word you're hiding behind, heritage. I'll decide if I agree with your belief when you explain what that heritage represents and why exactly it's important to you.

Besides, we should be focusing on the fact that 9 people were killed, rather than a flag.

Your buddy Torgo was just flaming over how some people are associating the issue of taking down the rebel flag with gun violence, and here you are suggesting that an incident involving an unlawfully obtained firearm is what we should really be focusing on.

A fucking wheat thresher. Somewhere there is a fucking wheat thresher and by God I will find it.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

That's a fun word you're hiding behind, heritage. I'll decide if I agree with your belief when you explain what that heritage represents and why exactly it's important to you.

I believe the confederate flag represents southern pride and heritage. Southerners stand for their beliefs; it doesn't matter what they are.

Your buddy Torgo was just flaming over how some people are associating the issue of taking down the rebel flag with gun violence, and here you are suggesting that an incident involving an unlawfully obtained firearm is what we should really be focusing on

First, I don't know Torgo. Agreeing with someone doesn't make them your "buddy."

Because 9 people got killed, people want to take a flag down. What good will that do? I feel like people are trying to change the meaning of something because of one incident.

 

[Rayne]

Southerners stand for their beliefs; it doesn't matter what they are.

You realize that's not a good thing? Part of life, and I hate to use the phrase "growing up", but it's apt here, is examining one's own beliefs on a regular basis. Case in point; very recently, a majority of South Carolina Congressmen just re-examined their opinions over the Confederate Flag, realized "wow, a lot of people think this is embarrassing, what if they're right?", and changed their beliefs.

The term for when you cling to your beliefs while refusing to examine them is called "stubbornness", and the history of Southerners "standing for their beliefs no matter what they are" has an extremely checkered history, often involving dogs and firehoses.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

You realize that's not a good thing? Part of life, and I hate to use the phrase "growing up", but it's apt here, is examining one's own beliefs on a regular basis. Case in point; very recently, a majority of South Carolina Congressmen just re-examined their opinions over the Confederate Flag, realized "wow, a lot of people think this is embarrassing, what if they're right?", and changed their beliefs.

The term for when you cling to your beliefs while refusing to examine them is called "stubbornness", and the history of Southerners "standing for their beliefs no matter what they are" has an extremely checkered history, often involving dogs and firehoses.

And again, to reiterate, none of this matters to individuals who want to continue to be stubborn about their beliefs. None of the issues surrounding the Confederate flag at the moment address individuals in any way.

If you as an individual want to waive it loud and proud, you can, and you should be able to do so, even if the Nation at large thinks you an idiot for doing so.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

You realize that's not a good thing? Part of life, and I hate to use the phrase "growing up", but it's apt here, is examining one's own beliefs on a regular basis. Case in point; very recently, a majority of South Carolina Congressmen just re-examined their opinions over the Confederate Flag, realized "wow, a lot of people think this is embarrassing, what if they're right?", and changed their beliefs.

The term for when you cling to your beliefs while refusing to examine them is called "stubbornness", and the history of Southerners "standing for their beliefs no matter what they are" has an extremely checkered history, often involving dogs and firehoses.

We should ju stagree to disagree. I have my beliefs, and I'm not changing them. That's part of being from the South. You have your beliefs, and you don't change them because a lot of people have other beliefs.

 

[Con T.]

We should ju stagree to disagree. I have my beliefs, and I'm not changing them. That's part of being from the South. You have your beliefs, and you don't change them because a lot of people have other beliefs.

Do other parts of the being from the south include keeping a group of people of slaves, and then using said imagery from an era of slavery to hold up as "heritage" #justsouthernthings.

Whether you like it or not, part of that pride you hold includes a history of slavery, and keeping down blacks, because of their skin color. Frankly, how you view the flag is absolutely irrelevant; it's a sign of slavery, and oppression.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that argue that the Swastika is a sign of German history. I'm also sure they either don't realize how sordid that history is, or care.

God damn it, I just let that moron Smark Madden into the conversation, didn't I?

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Do other parts of the being from the south include keeping a group of people of slaves, and then using said imagery from an era of slavery to hold up as "heritage" #justsouthernthings.

Whether you like it or not, part of that pride you hold includes a history of slavery, and keeping down blacks, because of their skin color. Frankly, how you view the flag is absolutely irrelevant; it's a sign of slavery, and oppression.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that argue that the Swastika is a sign of German history. I'm also sure they either don't realize how sordid that history is, or care.

God damn it, I just let that moron Smark Madden into the conversation, didn't I?

I believe all are created equal. Regardless of race. The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism and hate but rather a symbol of southern pride, which I explained in my above posts.

Sure, the South was racist at one point, and using your logic, we shouldn't raise the confederate flag, which represents southern pride and heritage.

Using this same logic, we should never raise the American flag. Just because America as a whole was racist at one point in time.

Countries and symbols can change, and some thankfully did.

 

[Con T.]

I believe all are created equal. Regardless of race. The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism and hate but rather a symbol of southern pride, which I explained in my above posts.

That's just the issue; again, you're employing your sensibilities.

Again, fine. But the thing is, you aren't the oppressed. You aren't the one who's legacy includes being enslaved.

Your opinion is what it is, but it comes from sensibilities that don't include a history of oppression. In short, you're essentially saying that, to you, the one opinion of yours is more important to the suffering of others.

And that, my friend, is what we call privilege.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Can anyone explain to me what "Southern Pride" and "our heritage" means? Because these words have been tossed around so much that I'm starting to suspect they're nothing but buzzwords to defend ignorance.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Can anyone explain to me what "Southern Pride" and "our heritage" means? Because these words have been tossed around so much that I'm starting to suspect they're nothing but buzzwords to defend ignorance.

It means you're proud of who you are and stand up for your beliefs.