Week 3: Fratelli -versus- Franchize1990

[Mr. TM]

Over time, wrestlers have jumped ship from one promotion to another promotion. Each time the wrestler had a different run in each company. Some have been better, some have been worse. But for those wrestlers who faced a similar push, in which company did they thrive more in?

Did Booker T thrive more in WCW or WWE/TNA?


Franchize1990 is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

 

[Franchize1990]

I will argue that Booker T thrived better in WCW and I will be going 2nd.

Looking forward to a great debate

 

[Fratelli]

Wow hold on a second. Sorry but i did not notice this thread until just now on the off chance and im not prepared to go 1st at the moment. Would it be possible for future debates to get a pm as i have very limited internet connection just now. Using an ipod touch for this post. I also find it a bit unfair that people get to say they will be going second And pick their side of the debate even though tm says they have 24 hours. I will have my debate up within 24hrs

 

[Fratelli]

To the judges of the WrestleZone debate forum. I first off would like to apologise for the lateness in finding this thread, I did not realise that new debates could be started even though the scoring had fully taken place. And also the fact that threads being bumped up from week one and two left me confused as to why I didn’t have a week 3 match up. I did of core but it had been shifted down to page two, where I expected only the really old debates to be. I would like you to believe me when I say that am not using this as an excuse for not writing the debate, rather the whole situation was a case of bad luck.

But onto the matter at hand…

Booker T is a 5 time, 5 time, 5 time, 5 time, 5 time WCW world heavyweight champion (one of which under contract with the WWF). A former 10 time WCW tag team champion. 6 time WCW TV champ and former holder of the WCW U.S title. An impressive list of accomplishments, no doubt about it.
But I’m not here to talk about WCW, no, I’m here to tell you why Booker T’s run in the WWE/WWF and TNA were more beneficial to him.

So becoming a world heavyweight champion in your wrestling organisation should be a great achievement for you, you would want it be memorable and talked about for years to come. The sad thing for Booker was that his 1st title win will always be overshadowed by the famous Russo promo before it. Not many people talk about the night Booker beat Jarrett for the title, instead we all remember Jarrett laying down in the middle of the ring as Hogan quickly disposed of the WCW champ, and was then fired.
His WCW title runs were also short lived (4 times champ in WCW and his longest reign lasted 55 days, and while it does say he held the WCW title for 120 days during the WWF takeover, he did not defend for a few months while WCW went out of business) and he faced off against aging wrestlers such as Steiner and Jarrett, (in a time when the WCW was losing badly to the WWF in the ratings and WCW were having to do ANYTHING to get the ratings up) and in stupid matches such as a San Francisco 49ers matches and straight jacket steel cages. Neither of which are famous or memorable. For any good reason that is.

But when the WWF came knocking Bookers career took off. Matches at the top of the card and top WCW guy was a great achievement for him. Matches against The Rock at summer slam and was a constant main event player for most of his WWF/E career. Matches against Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker and Kane were the start of a bright future for the Texan. He then went on to feud with Edge at his 1st Wrestlemania and produced a good match with the hottest rising star in the company.
He was then called upon to join the returning faction of the NOW, in which his stay was short lived but set up a face turn in which he teamed up with Goldust in the surprising successful comedy duo, and the pair went on to win the World tag team championship.

His career took another step up from there when he won a battle royal for the right to face HHH in one of the main events of Wrestlemania, for the World Heavyweight Title. Booker produced a great match with The Game and earned the respect of the fans, who now considered him to be a serious contender for the World Title, whether he was in the tad team or lower tier title picture. He was always considered a believable threat.

Booker went on from there facing off against Christian in some highly entertaining bouts for the Intercontinental title, bringing some prestige back to it after it was vacated a few months before, only losing the title back to him as injury forced him to take some time off.
Once he returned he won the tag titles again with RVD and faced off against top tag teams such as the Dudley Boys and Evolution, helping to elevate him to the top. The wait paid off for him and he was quickly moved over to Smack down where he remained at the top of the card, facing Eddie Guerrero, JBL and The Undertaker in main event matches throughout 2003-2004.
He also battled John Cena and Chris Benoit in ‘best of’ series for the highly rated U.S title at the time, where he produced matches worthy of PPV main events.

His biggest break came when he won the WWE’s new version of the King Of The Ring and cashed in his opportunity to win the title at the Great American Bash, defeating Rey Mysterio to win his 1st WWE Heavyweight championship. He battled throughout his main event run with his main rival Batista, in some entertaining matches for several months, until he lost the title at survivor series several months later after a productive title run.
His WWE run would shortly come to an end after being caught up in a signature pharmacy scandal, although he would ride out his last few months feuding in the main event again with HHH and The Undertaker.
He would then sign for an up and coming company TNA, where again he was immediately pushed to the main event, feuding with up and coming future main eveners Roode and Kaz as well as Christian Cage. Booker showed the unselfishness, unlike some TNA stars, to give the younger stars their chance to shine in the main event, and still looked like a main event player in the process.
Booker T would then Debut the TNA Legends title after joining the Main Event Mafia, the main faction in the company with all the main event players. He defeated wrestlers such as Christian Cage and members of the TNA Frontline faction for several months before dropping the title to AJ Styles.
Even in his advancing years Booker T still looks like to have a future TNA world title run still left in him and I believe it will be as entertaining Booker T has ever been.

 

[Franchize1990]

Booker T: WCW Legend, WWE & TNA Footnote​

When I mention the name Booker T, many of the people I talk to remember his days of Harlem Heat and his other memorible moments in WCW and not for his time inthe other national promotions.During his days in the WWF/E and later TNA, he never seemed to recapture the greatness and the fame that he once had when he was in World Championship Wrestling. While thriving in WCW, Booker T had the titles, the noteriety, and the prestige that many wrestlers can only dream of.

The Decorated Champion

Booler T is one of, if not the most, decorated champion in WCW. His title reigns range from ten WCW World Tag Team Championships, six WCW World Television Titles, a United States Title run that he never loss, and four WCW World Heavyweight Title runs (five if one counts his final reign when they were under the WWF promotion). Adding all of the titles that he won when in WCW, Booker comes up with a grand total of 21 belts won, 22 if you count the extra Heavyweight Championship during the WWF days. The total number of titles Booker held in WCW almost doubles the amount of titles he has held in the WWF/E and TNA combined. Not many wrestlers can or will touch the number of reigns that Booker reached.

Lost Noteriety

As mentioned prviously, Booker T became one of the most decorated champions in WCW history. He was a household name who spent years building up his name so it could mean something when others spoke about it. While making the transition to the WWF, he confronted The Rock who was just coming back from injury and when he interrupted The Rock, he responded with the infamous quote "Who in the blue hell are you?". So all of the publicity and fame he had gained in the WCW meant nothing in the WWF and he had to rebuild his reputation after getting beat by The Rock at Summer Slam. Unfortunately, he could never reclaim the fame that he once knew, especially when he ran through the whole King Book-ah phase when he came to RAW.

Booker's Prestigious WCW Run

In addition to number of titles he won, and the reputation he had bulit up while in WCW, Booker T has also been recognized as an accomplished wrestler when in WCW. He's received awards in some of the most prestigious wrestling magazines that the world has to offer, most notably PWI. They have awarded him with the Most Improved Wrestler of the Year in 1998, he was a two-time winner of the Tag Team of the Year when he was with Harlem Heat, and he hit the number five spot for Best Wrestler of the Year in his final year at WCW. The closest he has gotten to that spot when he was in the WWF/E was #7. Booker did real well in WCW and, wheather the younger talent took the spotlight or age got the best of him, he has never been the same.

 

[Franchize1990]

His WCW title runs were also short lived (4 times champ in WCW and his longest reign lasted 55 days, and while it does say he held the WCW title for 120 days during the WWF takeover, he did not defend for a few months while WCW went out of business) and he faced off against aging wrestlers such as Steiner and Jarrett, (in a time when the WCW was losing badly to the WWF in the ratings and WCW were having to do ANYTHING to get the ratings up) and in stupid matches such as a San Francisco 49ers matches and straight jacket steel cages. Neither of which are famous or memorable. For any good reason that is.

Booker has also faced off against aging wrestlers when he first debuted in TNA. His first match was against a near 40-year old Kurt Angle and Kevin Nash, who was knocking on 50 at the time.

But when the WWF came knocking Bookers career took off. Matches at the top of the card and top WCW guy was a great achievement for him. Matches against The Rock at summer slam and was a constant main event player for most of his WWF/E career. Matches against Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker and Kane were the start of a bright future for the Texan. He then went on to feud with Edge at his 1st Wrestlemania and produced a good match with the hottest rising star in the company.

Booker was only a consistant main eventer in the WWF/E for around six months. Then, he was moved down to feuding with the likes of Stevie Richards and Chash Holly for the Hardcore belt and then becoming a comedy tag team with Goldust. He would not see the main event scene until his run with JBL three years later. His fued with Edge was started over a fake Japaneese shampoo commercial (talk about crazy gimmicks/storylines) and he ended up losing that match to Edge at WrestleMania. In fact, Booker T has only won two live televised matches at either WWE's or TNA's biggest pay-per-view.

His career took another step up from there when he won a battle royal for the right to face HHH in one of the main events of Wrestlemania, for the World Heavyweight Title. Booker produced a great match with The Game and earned the respect of the fans, who now considered him to be a serious contender for the World Title, whether he was in the tad team or lower tier title picture. He was always considered a believable threat.

This explains the "Lost Noterity" part of my opening argument. Booker had already done a fantastic job in WCW establishing himself as a contender for major titles. It shouldn't have needed to take a match with Triple H to earn something that he's already gained. And again, Booker lost that match which meant that he was not thriving well enough to hold the major titles in the business.

Once he returned he won the tag titles again with RVD and faced off against top tag teams such as the Dudley Boys and Evolution, helping to elevate him to the top. The wait paid off for him and he was quickly moved over to Smack down where he remained at the top of the card, facing Eddie Guerrero, JBL and The Undertaker in main event matches throughout 2003-2004.
He also battled John Cena and Chris Benoit in ‘best of’ series for the highly rated U.S title at the time, where he produced matches worthy of PPV main events.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Booker never came out on top in any of the feuds mentioned above. He couldn't beat JBL at Suvivor Series, was unable to win the fatal four-way at Armageddon, lost to Cena in "game 7" of their 7 match series, and was unable to finish the series against Beniot due to an injury and had Orton win the title for him. When he was in WCW he came out on top against talents like Benoit, in a best of seven series coincidentially, Disco Inferno, Kevin Nash, and Scott Steiner.

 

[Fratelli]

Booker has also faced off against aging wrestlers when he first debuted in TNA. His first match was against a near 40-year old Kurt Angle and Kevin Nash, who was knocking on 50 at the time.

Booker T was brought in as a main event face, so the obvious way o bring him would be facing off against the top heels in the company.

Booker was only a consistant main eventer in the WWF/E for around six months. Then, he was moved down to feuding with the likes of Stevie Richards and Chash Holly for the Hardcore belt

that was one night only..

and then becoming a comedy tag team with Goldust. He would not see the main event scene until his run with JBL three years later. His fued with Edge was started over a fake Japaneese shampoo commercial (talk about crazy gimmicks/storylines) and he ended up losing that match to Edge at WrestleMania.

Booker T was in the World Heavyweight title match at Wrestlemania 19, ONE year later. after the sucsessful tag team run and the NWO he was then pushed with the intercontinental title in a strong division mainly feuding with Christian who many fans saw as a future Main eventer.

In fact, Booker T has only won two live televised matches at either WWE's or TNA's biggest pay-per-view.

but then again, Jeff Hardy has never won at a wrestlemania, randy orton has only two wrestlemania wins and ric flair has only ever won once at a wresltmania in 5 attempts.

This explains the "Lost Noterity" part of my opening argument. Booker had already done a fantastic job in WCW establishing himself as a contender for major titles. It shouldn't have needed to take a match with Triple H to earn something that he's already gained. And again, Booker lost that match which meant that he was not thriving well enough to hold the major titles in the business.

Just because he lost the match doesnt mean he wasnt thriving well enough doesnt mean he wasnt doing well enough, it was because he maybe wasnt as good as Triple H at the time to take the company forward. the only reason he became champ in WCW was because they were losing badly in the ratings and needed to create new stars. if booker was around 5 years earlier he would have left for the wwf sooner.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Booker never came out on top in any of the feuds mentioned above. He couldn't beat JBL at Suvivor Series, was unable to win the fatal four-way at Armageddon, lost to Cena in "game 7" of their 7 match series, and was unable to finish the series against Beniot due to an injury and had Orton win the title for him. When he was in WCW he came out on top against talents like Benoit, in a best of seven series coincidentially, Disco Inferno, Kevin Nash, and Scott Steiner.

Booker T may not have came out on top but this may have been another test to booker to see how he would have faired in the main event scene, a scene he was in and out of at the time shifting between raw and smackdown. and the best of 7 with benoit in wwe wasnt finished because he had an injury yes, thats not his fault! and booker t was paving the way for guys like cena in the business, just like nash, benoit and inferno did for him

 

[Mr. TM]

Clarity of debate- 1 point
Franchize1990, you did the money shot in my books. Make yourself heard in the debate, then run over your opponent.

Punctuality- 1 point
I hope that you realize that yes, the debates do get unorganized as people judge them after the next round starts. You will always have a round, and if you cannot find it, PM me, and I will point you to the way Fratelli. The Rounds will be starting tomorrow at 1:00 Pacific Standard Time. F1990 is awarded here.

Informative- 1 point
Great information brought in, but not enough love for some of Booker's great sets of matches that would have been huge as a debating tool. I give Fratelli the points here, but it could have gone the other way.

Emotionality- 1 point
Franchize1990 was great in his emotionality. Sorry Fratelli, but you did not come off as that heated here.

Persuasion- 1 point
Booker T was one of my favourite talents in the WCW during his runs. I hated when he turned on his brother in Harlem Heat. That being said, I felt his WWE and TNA run has been better. Some things that would have tipped it better were not addressed fully. Franchize, you did great at discrediting his WWE run. You get this point.

TM rates this 4 points Franchize1990 to 1 points Fratelli.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity - Franchize1990, are you ever not clear in a debate?

Point: Franchize1990

Punctuality - Franchize1990 gets the point here.

Point: Franchize1990

Informative - Both of you brought in a good amount of information. I'm going to split the point here, as I can't find fault with any of the information either of you brought in.

Point: Split

Emotionality - Cool, calm, and collected, yet self-assured. Franchize1990 gets the point here.

Point: Franchize1990

Persuasion - Have I already showered Franchize1990 with enough praise? I think I may be overdoing it a little bit. Anyway, have another point.

Point: Franchize1990

tdigle's Score

Fratelli - 0.5
Franchize1990 - 4.5

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Franchize is ridiculously good and I think always gets the point.

Point: Franchize1990

Punctuality: Fratelli was late.

Point: Franchize1990

Informative: Both brought good information, none used better than the other. I agree with Tdigs.

Point: Split

Emotionality: Tdigs said it best. Calm, cool, and collect, yet confident in his style. Franchize here.

Point: Franchize1990

Persuasion: Fratelli brought up some good high points about being in WWE and TNA, but Franchize made a great point by saying how he was built up in WCW, only to be torn down in WWE and have to start all over again basically.

Point: Franchize1990

CH David scores this Franchize1990 4.5, Fratelli .5.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: You were both nice and clear, I didnt have any trouble reading through it anyway. I gotta go with the Franchize guy in this one. It was just better prepared and cleaner to read I thought.

Point: Franchize1990

Punctuality: Fratelli wasnt on time or something

Point: Franchize1990

Informative: Fratelli I think bought more to the table with facts and information. Well, I learned things anyway.

Point: Fratelli

Emotionality: Kind of hard to judge through text I think, I suppose that both sides fought their corner well enough. I'll split the point

Point: Split

Persuasion: Both made good points, I think both had holes in their posts which could've been mercilessly destroyed by the other. Still good solid arguments though, Franchize takes the cake in this one.

Point: Franchize1990

Miko's first ever scoring Franchize - 3.5
Fratelli - 1.5