Week 2 - NSL vs. Dave

FromTheSouth

You don't want it with me.
This thread is for the debaters only. It ends 6 PM CST Sunday.

Dave will be affirming the topic.

Resolved: in the United States' justice system, due process ought to be valued above the pursuit of truth when they are in conflict.
 
Before I start my debate, I would like to wish NSL the best of luck and I hope that we can put on a good, testing, challenging debate.

With that being said, I will move on to actually answering the question at hand. The question I have been asked to answer is that due process ought to transcend the pursuit of truth in any court case. For the guys out there who had a hard time finding out what that meant, I will now give it a go in trying to explain to you what my view of this question means. When in a court case, the process that must be followed in proving someone is innocent or guilty should be more than rushing to conclusions and assuming that someone is tied to a verdict that they might not be.

Personally, I think I have been handed the correct side of the debate and I feel for NSL who will be forced to argue against the fact that people should be innocent until proven guilty. When you boil down the wordy question and leave it in the root state, this is essentially what is up for debate here. Now, I will ask you, the reader. Do you think that people deserve to be labelled as guilty because people have rushed to conclusions about their innocence? I, for one, do not think so. I still believe in the justice system and if the very fibre of the justice system breaks down, it is only due to the fact that no one will be able to get a fair trial because the outcome of said trial will already be pre-determined.

I am certain that you or someone you know, or have read about has been embroiled in a mess that they did not create. I am sure that the emotion that runs through their mind is astonishing and to be tried for something that you did not do must evoke a feeling from the accused that I cannot put down into words. Now imagine that you are that person, you know you are innocent but you do not have the proof to prove otherwise. Where do you go from there. If it is an especially despicable crime, you have been labelled for life. Like it or not, your life will never be the same. People will always look at you as if you did it and will never forget. Now, what I am trying to prove here is that if due process is dropped and the pursuit of truth is rushed through, your life will never be the same again.

For you see, in the end, it is only you who knows if you did or did not commit a crime. At the end of the day, police cannot jump to the conclusion that you did or did not do the action you have been banded to, they will follow leads and examine evidence and sometimes this will lead them to your doorstep. For example, let us examine a rape case in which the accused used to be intimate with the accuser. Let me paint you a picture with my imagination brush, shall I? The two people are perfectly happy until one day, the accused decides that things are not working anymore. The accuser takes this very badly and decides to get her own back after a particularly nasty split up. So, she tells the cops that she has been raped. She knocks herself around a little bit and makes a very compelling case that she has indeed been raped. Now, if due process was not followed, the accused would be labelled a rapist and would be sent to prison, where he would likely be raped. Now, the accused did not do the crime, you and I know that but do the police know that? Do the lawyers and judgers who attend the case know that? No, they do not.

Due process is the idea that the state should allow the accused to have the rights upheld under the eyes of the law and if found guilty, punished under it. Now, I will ask you once more, why should labels be put on people who are not allowed a fair trial or a chance to defend themselves. This is such a trivial matter and honestly cannot be answered against. The right of a fair trial should always, always transcend the pursuit of truth because without that one law, the whole fabric that binds the justice system and society in general would completely fail.
 
Dave said:
Personally, I think I have been handed the correct side of the debate and I feel for NSL who will be forced to argue against the fact that people should be innocent until proven guilty.

Don't worry, Dave. I don't mind defending "guilty until proven innocent". In fact, in some cases, I feel that should be how it's handled. Why?

Here's one good example: OJ Simpson. Public opinion decided he was guilty before the trial started. We all knew he did it, but we had to rely on evidence to determine it in a courtroom. What happened? He walked. He got off (almost) scot free.

Had the jurors, judge, policemen, and others had their minds made up in the first place, then he would have been behind bars, and all of his recent legal trouble would never have happened.

Believing people to be guilty before the trial has put numerous people behind bars, that deserve to be there. Charles Manson and the Nazi SS are 2 prime examples. Going into both high profile trials, we knew they were guilty, and no matter the evidence, people were going to pay the price, and serve their sentences.

How pissed would you have felt, if evidence turned up, and on a legal technicality, the SS soldiers were set free? What would have happened if evidence in the Manson family trial had been tainted, or handled improperly?
 
Don't worry, Dave. I don't mind defending "guilty until proven innocent". In fact, in some cases, I feel that should be how it's handled. Why?

Here's one good example: OJ Simpson. Public opinion decided he was guilty before the trial started. We all knew he did it, but we had to rely on evidence to determine it in a courtroom. What happened? He walked. He got off (almost) scot free.

Had the jurors, judge, policemen, and others had their minds made up in the first place, then he would have been behind bars, and all of his recent legal trouble would never have happened.

Yeah, that's right. Let's have people make theirt minds up before they read hear any evidence from people who know what they are talking about. Better yet, NSL. Let's have them read a sensationalised headline from a tabloid newspaper and then have them text in their votes to determine if they are guilty or not. Failing that, we can always have them flip a coin and decide that way, shall we. That is basically what you are saying here. That people do not deserve to have their case heard in front of a group of peers and a fair trial to be concluded. What a ridiculous statement that is. No one should have to go through a trial that the outcome is already predetermined. If they are guilty, let it be shown. If they are innocent, then that will be shown too.

Believing people to be guilty before the trial has put numerous people behind bars, that deserve to be there. Charles Manson and the Nazi SS are 2 prime examples. Going into both high profile trials, we knew they were guilty, and no matter the evidence, people were going to pay the price, and serve their sentences.

And what about the multiple people that do not deserve to be there, NSL? What about them? Should they be lumped together with the Nazis and likes of Manson? I don't think so. A court xase is not always as clear cut as the Nuremburg Trials and almost never are they as predetermined and for good reason. Things happen and coincidences definitely happen. I would hate to be the person who is be judged by you in a court case. Nah, I read in a newspaper that he was guilty so that is what I say...
 
If we learned anything from the OJ Simpson case, it's that evidence is not always "black and white". He basically went free because of a glove that didn't fit, and an overzealous cop.

In the Robert Blake trial, he got off on the defense that he left his gun in the restaurant, so he couldn't have been there when his wife was shot. Really? That's a defense now? "I was going to shoot my wife, but forgot my gun"?

In the cases that I'm referencing, it's almost common sense that they were guilty of those crimes, and they got off because of poor prosecution. There is no argument saying that every case should be decided before it goes to trial, and you know that, which is why you "felt sorry" that we got this debate.
 
OK, well you guys both missed the point of the topic. The thread was asking whether the process by which evidence is collected and processed is more important than finding the truth. It asked whether it was more important to give one his miranda rights and not coerce a confession, than it is to find out who is guilty. Basically, is the right to an attorney more important than society's right to prosecute.

That being said, you guys debated the topic you decided on, and on that, I give the win to Dave.

Dave gets 20 points out of 50 for being off topic.
NSL gets 15.
 
Ya, you guys didn't really stay on the topic, but at least you debated, that's a plus. Dave wins btw.

Dave 25
NSL 19
 
The topic you debated was a good one, but not the right one. Best toclarufy if you are unsure. Dave steered it wrong, but I feel the debate he took the on was won by him. Give it to him 15-14.
 

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