Week 2: IC 25 -versus- 48.7
- Thread starter Mr. TM
- Start date
Oh man, IC. I have to make you argue against your favorite wrestler, because I simply cannot argue for Bret Hart. I have a bad feeling about this week, man. Go ahead and open her up.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
One of the things I bring to the table as an adult fan of professional wrestling is the ability to separate passion from knowledge. For me to argue in favor of the greatest wrestlers of all time is not always to argue for my favorite wrestlers.
To illustrate this fact, I can tell you unequivocally that my favorite wrestlers of all time include such names as Marty Jannetty, Big Van Vader, Arn Anderson, and of course, Chris Jericho. However, I can also remove myself from that subjectivity and state the opinion that the greatest wrestlers of all time include names such as Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and Bret Hart.
What is so difficult about this debate is just how similar in many ways Bret and Chris truly are. It's the neat thing about the mid-sized Canadian wrestlers - they share a multitude of important similarities. But Bret Hart stands head and shoulders above the rest, and here are some reasons why.
Let's turn the clock back for a second and say, for the sake or argument, that there are three championships in professional wrestling. Tag team, Intercontinental, and a combination of WWF / WWE / WHC. This truly keeps Chris and Bret on even footing because while Bret loses a US Title reign, Chris loses a European Title Reign.
Bret Hart was one half - really the dominant half - of one of the consensus greatest tag teams of all time in the Hart Foundation. Bret found himself a 2-time champion in the middle of one of the greatest eras in tag team wrestling history, with competitors such as Demolition, the Legion of Doom, the Nasty Boys, the Brain Busters, etc. The Hart Foundation's tag team matches, such as their best-of-3 at SummerSlam, not only stole the show, but also are still referred to among the greatest tag team matches of all time.
Chris Jericho, on the other hand, is a 4-time tag team champion with a history of unimpressive, non-descript tag team reigns. His 4 titles have all come with different partners - he's like the **** of tag team wrestling. In addition, unlike Bret, Jericho's tag team reigns were rarely the result of being "the best tag team in the world." His reign with Chris Benoit was utilized to advance the feud between he and HHH / Austin. His reign with The Rock was utilized to advance the WCW Title feud. His reign with Christian was a sad attempt by the WWE to recreate the magic of the Edge & Christian team. And his current reign with Edge and Big Show has gone nowhere fast.
As far as the Intercontinental Championship goes, anybody who thinks Jericho is the better IC Champ due to the fact that he's held the title 7 more times is nuts. Bret Hart is still, to this day, one of the greatest IC Champions of all time, several steps ahead of Chris Jericho.
To be fair, Bret wasn't a long-term IC Champion. He won the title from Mr. Perfect in a match still to this day considered the best on THAT SummerSlam card. If Shawn Michaels is Mr. Wrestlemania, Bret Hart is Mr. SummerSlam. Bret's first reign was 144 days long before dropping the title to The Mountie. His second reign was 146 days long before losing the belt to The British Bulldog at, you guessed it, SummerSlam, in a match, you guessed it, often referred to as one of the greatest matches of all time.
Jericho, on the other hand, has had 9 reigns total: 22 days, 35 days, 6 days, 72 days, 14 days, 0 days (won and lost the same night), 37 days, 111 days, and 21 days. Chris Jericho's 9 title reigns lasted a total of 318 days, for an average reign of 35.33 days. Bret Hart's 2 title reigns lasted a total of 290 days, for an average reign of 145 days.
The other side of the Intercontinental Title argument is the fact that, despite only 290 days as champion, Bret Hart's matches with Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels (during which the first ladder match was contested in the WWF, a match which Hart sold to the WWF in the first place...), Rick Martel, and Davey Boy Smith were tremendous and memorable. Jericho's only truly memorable IC Title opponent was Chris Benoit.
As far as "The Big One" goes, so many people love to rally against Bret Hart for having WWF Title runs in the early and mid-90's that fell shorts of expectations in terms of drawing power and money. If I were debating against Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, or even Ric Flair I'd probably concede this point. But I am not. I am debating against Chris Jericho, a man who won the first ever Undisputed WWE Championship and subsequently lost almost all fan interest. Jericho's role was essentially to polish the belt for Triple H while The Rock and Steve Austin were pre-occupied with the WCW and nWo invasions.
Jericho technically "main evented" Wrestlemania 18 with a title LOSS to Triple H. The biggest match of the night, however, was The Rock vs Hollywood Hulk Hogan. Conversely, at Wrestlemania 10, Bret Hart main evented a title WIN against Yokozuna, while ALSO participating in the match of the night vs his brother Owen Hart.
Bret Hart, as a champion, was head and shoulders above Chris Jericho as a champion. These are the facts, and they are undisputed.
The interesting dynamic of professional wrestling actually allows for us as fans to take into account how opponents felt about a particular wrestler. "Who was your favorite opponent?" "Who was your favorite to work with?" I defy anyone to tell me that Bret Hart wasn't one of the greatest, if not THE GREATEST, professional wrestling opponent ever.
I've already covered the SummerSlam matches with Mr. Perfect and British Bulldog, and how amazing they truly were. But think of this fact - in 1993, Pro Wrestling Illustrated awarded Bret Hart with "Feud of the Year." His feuding partner? Jerry Lawler. Yes, folks, the same commentator currently used to give wrestlers on their way out the door the kiss of death, Bret Hart put together the best feud of the year 1993. This is the same year Vader feuded with Sting and Cactus Jack, the same year Yokozuna feuded with Lex Luger, the same year Shawn Michaels feuded with Mr. Perfect, the same year Diesel feuded with Razor Ramon.
At the end of 1993, Bret started the feud with his brother Owen, eventually the PWI Award winner for Feud of 1994. During that time, Bret stole his third SummerSlam in four years (though many people do see Bret's matches with Doink and Lawler as the best of the 1993 event) in a Steel Cage Match with Owen. Wrestling Observer called it a "5-Star Match."
Shawn Michaels, despite real life issues with Bret, has said that it is Bret - not Jericho - who is his all-time favorite opponent. Well, in 1997, Bret and Shawn wrestled for an hour at Wrestlemania and won PWI's Match of the Year honors. Bret passed the torch to Shawn effectively, despite that fact that Hogan had not done the same for Bret.
Moving on, if you want to ask ANYONE about what a great opponent Bret Hart was, ask Steve Austin. In 1997, admist Shawn Michaels' creation of DX, Bret Hart put Steve Austin over so effectively in their Wrestlemania 13 submission match and feud (1997's PWI Match of the Year) that the era of Stone Cold Steve Austin could truly be ushered in. Incidentally, Hart and Austin missed out on Feud of the Year honors in 1997, as the award went to Randy Savage and Diamond Dallas Page. Excuse me?
That same yearm prior to November, Bret also wrestled classics with men such as The Undertaker, Diesel, and Davey Boy Smith en route to reforming the Hart Foundation and somehow starting the year as a babyface and ended as 1997's "Most Hated Wrestler."
Some of wrestling's all time greats - names like Smith, Michaels, Austin, and Owen Hart - can attribute much of their success, and certainly their greatest moments, to Bret Hart.
Let's set aside the fact that he's credited with having never injured an opponent in the ring. And the fact that you cannot see a Side Russian Leg Sweep without expecting the 2nd rope elbow next. The fact is, without Bret Hart, Chris Jericho may not be the name he is today.
Anyone who claims Bret Hart was a poor draw is likely limiting themselves to talking just about the US. In Canada and Europe - two places where Jericho also now draws well - Bret Hart busted down the door. His character in 1997 created the most heated and facinating US vs Canada rivalry in pro wrestling history.
Furthermore, though Randy Savage technically did it first, it was Bret Hart, NOT Shawn Michaels, who proved that the undersized technical wrestler could excel as a World Champion in an era dominated by champions like Hogan, Warrior, and Andre. Vince McMahon saw the smaller Canadian wrestle to his best each night, and that kept that door open.
Much the way Jericho and Punk do now, Hart was the clean faced champion in pro wrestlings' original steroid era. This man who went to ring side and placed his pink sunglasses on the heads of the young fans gave people in the early and mid-90's not only a man they could cheer, but a man they could trust.
Hart is a Hall of Famer. He is a legend. He is a professional. And when all is said and done, he's the best Canadian export to professional wrestling we've ever seen, and there will never be another Hitman.
To illustrate this fact, I can tell you unequivocally that my favorite wrestlers of all time include such names as Marty Jannetty, Big Van Vader, Arn Anderson, and of course, Chris Jericho. However, I can also remove myself from that subjectivity and state the opinion that the greatest wrestlers of all time include names such as Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and Bret Hart.
What is so difficult about this debate is just how similar in many ways Bret and Chris truly are. It's the neat thing about the mid-sized Canadian wrestlers - they share a multitude of important similarities. But Bret Hart stands head and shoulders above the rest, and here are some reasons why.
Bret Hart as a Champion
Let's turn the clock back for a second and say, for the sake or argument, that there are three championships in professional wrestling. Tag team, Intercontinental, and a combination of WWF / WWE / WHC. This truly keeps Chris and Bret on even footing because while Bret loses a US Title reign, Chris loses a European Title Reign.
Bret Hart was one half - really the dominant half - of one of the consensus greatest tag teams of all time in the Hart Foundation. Bret found himself a 2-time champion in the middle of one of the greatest eras in tag team wrestling history, with competitors such as Demolition, the Legion of Doom, the Nasty Boys, the Brain Busters, etc. The Hart Foundation's tag team matches, such as their best-of-3 at SummerSlam, not only stole the show, but also are still referred to among the greatest tag team matches of all time.
Chris Jericho, on the other hand, is a 4-time tag team champion with a history of unimpressive, non-descript tag team reigns. His 4 titles have all come with different partners - he's like the **** of tag team wrestling. In addition, unlike Bret, Jericho's tag team reigns were rarely the result of being "the best tag team in the world." His reign with Chris Benoit was utilized to advance the feud between he and HHH / Austin. His reign with The Rock was utilized to advance the WCW Title feud. His reign with Christian was a sad attempt by the WWE to recreate the magic of the Edge & Christian team. And his current reign with Edge and Big Show has gone nowhere fast.
As far as the Intercontinental Championship goes, anybody who thinks Jericho is the better IC Champ due to the fact that he's held the title 7 more times is nuts. Bret Hart is still, to this day, one of the greatest IC Champions of all time, several steps ahead of Chris Jericho.
To be fair, Bret wasn't a long-term IC Champion. He won the title from Mr. Perfect in a match still to this day considered the best on THAT SummerSlam card. If Shawn Michaels is Mr. Wrestlemania, Bret Hart is Mr. SummerSlam. Bret's first reign was 144 days long before dropping the title to The Mountie. His second reign was 146 days long before losing the belt to The British Bulldog at, you guessed it, SummerSlam, in a match, you guessed it, often referred to as one of the greatest matches of all time.
Jericho, on the other hand, has had 9 reigns total: 22 days, 35 days, 6 days, 72 days, 14 days, 0 days (won and lost the same night), 37 days, 111 days, and 21 days. Chris Jericho's 9 title reigns lasted a total of 318 days, for an average reign of 35.33 days. Bret Hart's 2 title reigns lasted a total of 290 days, for an average reign of 145 days.
The other side of the Intercontinental Title argument is the fact that, despite only 290 days as champion, Bret Hart's matches with Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels (during which the first ladder match was contested in the WWF, a match which Hart sold to the WWF in the first place...), Rick Martel, and Davey Boy Smith were tremendous and memorable. Jericho's only truly memorable IC Title opponent was Chris Benoit.
As far as "The Big One" goes, so many people love to rally against Bret Hart for having WWF Title runs in the early and mid-90's that fell shorts of expectations in terms of drawing power and money. If I were debating against Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, or even Ric Flair I'd probably concede this point. But I am not. I am debating against Chris Jericho, a man who won the first ever Undisputed WWE Championship and subsequently lost almost all fan interest. Jericho's role was essentially to polish the belt for Triple H while The Rock and Steve Austin were pre-occupied with the WCW and nWo invasions.
Jericho technically "main evented" Wrestlemania 18 with a title LOSS to Triple H. The biggest match of the night, however, was The Rock vs Hollywood Hulk Hogan. Conversely, at Wrestlemania 10, Bret Hart main evented a title WIN against Yokozuna, while ALSO participating in the match of the night vs his brother Owen Hart.
Bret Hart, as a champion, was head and shoulders above Chris Jericho as a champion. These are the facts, and they are undisputed.
Bret Hart as an Opponent
The interesting dynamic of professional wrestling actually allows for us as fans to take into account how opponents felt about a particular wrestler. "Who was your favorite opponent?" "Who was your favorite to work with?" I defy anyone to tell me that Bret Hart wasn't one of the greatest, if not THE GREATEST, professional wrestling opponent ever.
I've already covered the SummerSlam matches with Mr. Perfect and British Bulldog, and how amazing they truly were. But think of this fact - in 1993, Pro Wrestling Illustrated awarded Bret Hart with "Feud of the Year." His feuding partner? Jerry Lawler. Yes, folks, the same commentator currently used to give wrestlers on their way out the door the kiss of death, Bret Hart put together the best feud of the year 1993. This is the same year Vader feuded with Sting and Cactus Jack, the same year Yokozuna feuded with Lex Luger, the same year Shawn Michaels feuded with Mr. Perfect, the same year Diesel feuded with Razor Ramon.
At the end of 1993, Bret started the feud with his brother Owen, eventually the PWI Award winner for Feud of 1994. During that time, Bret stole his third SummerSlam in four years (though many people do see Bret's matches with Doink and Lawler as the best of the 1993 event) in a Steel Cage Match with Owen. Wrestling Observer called it a "5-Star Match."
Shawn Michaels, despite real life issues with Bret, has said that it is Bret - not Jericho - who is his all-time favorite opponent. Well, in 1997, Bret and Shawn wrestled for an hour at Wrestlemania and won PWI's Match of the Year honors. Bret passed the torch to Shawn effectively, despite that fact that Hogan had not done the same for Bret.
Moving on, if you want to ask ANYONE about what a great opponent Bret Hart was, ask Steve Austin. In 1997, admist Shawn Michaels' creation of DX, Bret Hart put Steve Austin over so effectively in their Wrestlemania 13 submission match and feud (1997's PWI Match of the Year) that the era of Stone Cold Steve Austin could truly be ushered in. Incidentally, Hart and Austin missed out on Feud of the Year honors in 1997, as the award went to Randy Savage and Diamond Dallas Page. Excuse me?
That same yearm prior to November, Bret also wrestled classics with men such as The Undertaker, Diesel, and Davey Boy Smith en route to reforming the Hart Foundation and somehow starting the year as a babyface and ended as 1997's "Most Hated Wrestler."
Some of wrestling's all time greats - names like Smith, Michaels, Austin, and Owen Hart - can attribute much of their success, and certainly their greatest moments, to Bret Hart.
Bret Hart's Legacy
Let's set aside the fact that he's credited with having never injured an opponent in the ring. And the fact that you cannot see a Side Russian Leg Sweep without expecting the 2nd rope elbow next. The fact is, without Bret Hart, Chris Jericho may not be the name he is today.
Anyone who claims Bret Hart was a poor draw is likely limiting themselves to talking just about the US. In Canada and Europe - two places where Jericho also now draws well - Bret Hart busted down the door. His character in 1997 created the most heated and facinating US vs Canada rivalry in pro wrestling history.
Furthermore, though Randy Savage technically did it first, it was Bret Hart, NOT Shawn Michaels, who proved that the undersized technical wrestler could excel as a World Champion in an era dominated by champions like Hogan, Warrior, and Andre. Vince McMahon saw the smaller Canadian wrestle to his best each night, and that kept that door open.
Much the way Jericho and Punk do now, Hart was the clean faced champion in pro wrestlings' original steroid era. This man who went to ring side and placed his pink sunglasses on the heads of the young fans gave people in the early and mid-90's not only a man they could cheer, but a man they could trust.
Hart is a Hall of Famer. He is a legend. He is a professional. And when all is said and done, he's the best Canadian export to professional wrestling we've ever seen, and there will never be another Hitman.
I fear I may lose a point for punctuality, but considering the news I received tonight, I really don't have any motivation to write at the moment. I'm going to sleep it off, and hopefully have my post up in the afternoon tomorrow. Sorry for the inconvenience.
I'm sorry for taking so long to get to this debate. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately, and my mind hasn't been focused on WrestleZone as much as normal, and even less on debating. I'd also like to apologize to my opponent, IC25, for not posting in time to get a real debate going.
**
I'm not going to pretend to have the same wrestling knowledge as IC25, or rather, knowledge in general. I'm only half-done with high school, and my opponent has a college degree, stable job, and a fiance. He's been watching wrestling far longer than I have, and he'd be the person you'd go to if you wanted a question answered, not me. However, I do posses one skill he seems to be missing: reading comprehension. Bret Hart may be more decorated (although I would argue that fact), but length of title reigns and quality of match are not deciding factors in who is the greater asset to the professional wrestling world.
In order to be a valuable asset to a wrestling promotion, you have to posses the tools required to be a professional wrestler. We'd both agree that things such as wrestling ability, charisma, skill on the microphone and versatility are all important to your success as a wrestler. Chris Jericho excels in each of those categories. Let me delve further into each of these categories and tell you why Chris Jericho is one of the best, if not the best, in each.
Wrestling Ability - As you and I both know, Chris Jericho was trained in the same basement as Bret Hart, by the same people. He learned the same techniques and the same philosophies. Essentially, they were cut from the same mold. Bret Hart is hailed as the greatest worker in the ring ever, and I have to concede that he holds the edge over Chris Jericho here. (To say differently would be foolish.) However, that edge is very slight. Bret Hart has multiple matches of the year to his name, but Chris Jericho has also received the honor. (He'll likely win another for his work with Rey Mysterio this year.) Chris Jericho, throughout the entirety of his career, has given his all in the ring. He consistently puts on matches that are far above the average, and steals the show on a regular basis.
Charisma - Before discussing charisma, it must first be defined:
Would you agree with me that this is a good way to define 'charisma'?
I have put in bold the characteristics that Chris Jericho has displayed as a wrestler, and as you can see, that would be the overwhelming majority. This would classify Chris Jericho as highly charismatic.
Charisma isn't something that can be learned. It's a God-given trait that only a lucky few have, including Chris Jericho. Charisma in wrestling gives you the ability to control the crowd, to make them hang on your every word, react to every expression on your face. Outside of the big three in The Rock, Steve Austin, and Hulk Hogan, there is no superstar more charismatic than Chris Jericho, and Bret Hart certainly doesn't hold a candle to him. There could be a legitimate claim made that Chris Jericho is the most charismatic superstar ever.
Microphone Skills - One of the most important tools in being able to "get over" with the fans is the ability to cut a promo. Countless individuals, namely Shelton Benjamin and Matt Hardy, who are talented in the ring and look the part simply can't break through the glass ceiling because they fail to deliver behind a microphone. The microphone is a wrestler's best friend and most effective tool in capturing the attention of the audience, and keeping it. Chris Jericho is one of the best.
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These are just a few of Chris Jericho's multitude of spectacular promos. As you can see, he is very multi-talented. I don't know how better to explain it further than showing you through videos. I'd like to ask, who is better on the microphone than Chris Jericho? There are only a handful of superstars that can even enter this conversation, and none of them are Bret Hart.
Versatility - Versatility is perhaps my favorite thing that Jericho offers. He has been a crowd favorite as a face, and the most hated wrestler in the industry (In 2002 and 2008, according to the Wrestling Observer). He can make the crowd love him or hate him with just a few words, just as he did this past Monday night on RAW.
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Jericho can work any style of match with any opponent. He can be a luchador, wrestle a technical style match, overpower a smaller wrestler, or whatever else you ask him to do. Jericho has won match of the year honors in a ladder match, has wrestled hardcore matches, dog-collar matches, tables, ladders and chairs; he's done everything under the sun, and he's done everything better than most. No one posses the versatility of Chris Jericho.
Chris Jericho is the jack of all trades in wrestling. Normally, when that is said of a person, they are the master of none; not this time. In this case, Chris Jericho can do it all, and he can do it all at an exceptionally high level. An asset to the wrestling world should be able to perform anything required of him, and Chris Jericho can. Just as Ken Griffey Jr. is a five-tool player in baseball, you could consider Chris Jericho the five-tool wrestler.
It's no secret that Bret Hart and his former employer don't get along well. In fact, Bret Hart trashed the WWF, Vince McMahon, and many of his former co-workers after his departure. Regardless of the circumstance, that is not how a professional would behave. I don't want to venture too far into the discussion of the Montreal "Screw-Job", because that issue has been beaten to death. The fact remains, that Bret Hart was too proud to do what was best for the company. He couldn't set aside a little personal rivalry, bite the bullet, and just go out with class. Oh no, instead he had to whine and throw all his toys out of his crib, then act like he was wronged in the worst way when he should have just agreed to let Shawn win the match in the first place. If I'm a wrestling promoter, or an owner, and I'm looking for an asset to my company, I want a man that is professional. Bret Hart proved that he was not a professional.
On the other hand, you have Chris Jericho. The man has been nothing but a class act throughout his entire career. He's always been a company man, appearing on shows such as Nancy Grace and Larry King after the death of his close friend Chris Benoit and explaining the situation better, handling the entire thing perfectly. He's always done what's been asked of him in wrestling, when it comes to putting younger superstars over himself or carrying the company while the top star and draw is gone. Chris Jericho is more professional than Bret Hart, and that's non-debatable.
Chris Jericho is a born-again Christian. I'm not here to preach, nor am I here to say that Christians are better than anyone. What I am going to say, is that typically you can trust a Christian to stay out of trouble, keep their word, and be an all-around good guy. Jericho has also been awarded The Order of the Buffalo Hunt in a ceremony held in Manitoba for his commitment to working with underprivileged children. That is a very high honor, one which has also been given to Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.
This also goes back to professionalism. Chris Jericho has never gotten in to any trouble with the law, has never gone through divorces, and has never had a drug problem. His image is squeaky clean, and that is great for your company.
I don't have pie charts, graphs, and quarterly reports to tell you how much merchandise each superstar has sold. I don't know the pay-per-view buy rate of SummerSlam '94. What I do know, is that neither Bret Hart or Chris Jericho are top draws in the United States. Ric Flair, a man very knowledgeable of the wrestling world, has criticized Hart for his inability to draw. Bret Hart also scored ratings as low at 1.9 during his tenure as WWF champion, in a period where wrestling was much, much more popular than it is today. Chris Jericho's title reigns have seen small drops in ratings, if at all, where as Bret is proven to lose viewers.
Bret Hart is also a very private man. He doesn't like to be out in the media, appearing on all sorts of shows. While I respect that, it's not good for business. Chris Jericho is all over the media, appearing on game shows, and on MTV and VH1. He has gone as far as to go on Larry King to further his feud with Mickey Rourke. All of this, including his tours with Fozzy give the WWE exposure, free exposure and advertising for them. Everywhere Jericho appears, he is linked to the WWE and to wrestling, which is very good for business. Bret Hart? Bret Hart was essentially a hermit, just doing his thing in the ring and then heading home and relaxing. There is nothing wrong with that from a personal standpoint, but when you're talking about who's the better asset for the world of professional wrestling, it has to be Chris Jericho. He creates more exposure for wrestling, and thus brings in new viewers, new revenue, and new money. Chris Jericho is better for business than Bret Hart.
Chris Jericho is a more well-rounded professional wrestler than Bret Hart. He's better behind the microphone, much more versatile, more charismatic, and nearly as good in the ring. Jericho is a professional, where as Bret acts like a child more often than not. Jericho's image is perfect, and is a man who can be the face of your company. Jericho also creates more exposure for the world of professional wrestling than Bret Hart, and brings in more money. These are the facts, and the facts say that Chris Jericho is a better asset to the professional wrestling universe than Bret Hart.
**
I'm not going to pretend to have the same wrestling knowledge as IC25, or rather, knowledge in general. I'm only half-done with high school, and my opponent has a college degree, stable job, and a fiance. He's been watching wrestling far longer than I have, and he'd be the person you'd go to if you wanted a question answered, not me. However, I do posses one skill he seems to be missing: reading comprehension. Bret Hart may be more decorated (although I would argue that fact), but length of title reigns and quality of match are not deciding factors in who is the greater asset to the professional wrestling world.
Chris Jericho the Wrestler
In order to be a valuable asset to a wrestling promotion, you have to posses the tools required to be a professional wrestler. We'd both agree that things such as wrestling ability, charisma, skill on the microphone and versatility are all important to your success as a wrestler. Chris Jericho excels in each of those categories. Let me delve further into each of these categories and tell you why Chris Jericho is one of the best, if not the best, in each.
Wrestling Ability - As you and I both know, Chris Jericho was trained in the same basement as Bret Hart, by the same people. He learned the same techniques and the same philosophies. Essentially, they were cut from the same mold. Bret Hart is hailed as the greatest worker in the ring ever, and I have to concede that he holds the edge over Chris Jericho here. (To say differently would be foolish.) However, that edge is very slight. Bret Hart has multiple matches of the year to his name, but Chris Jericho has also received the honor. (He'll likely win another for his work with Rey Mysterio this year.) Chris Jericho, throughout the entirety of his career, has given his all in the ring. He consistently puts on matches that are far above the average, and steals the show on a regular basis.
Charisma - Before discussing charisma, it must first be defined:
Wikipedia said:
Would you agree with me that this is a good way to define 'charisma'?
I have put in bold the characteristics that Chris Jericho has displayed as a wrestler, and as you can see, that would be the overwhelming majority. This would classify Chris Jericho as highly charismatic.
Charisma isn't something that can be learned. It's a God-given trait that only a lucky few have, including Chris Jericho. Charisma in wrestling gives you the ability to control the crowd, to make them hang on your every word, react to every expression on your face. Outside of the big three in The Rock, Steve Austin, and Hulk Hogan, there is no superstar more charismatic than Chris Jericho, and Bret Hart certainly doesn't hold a candle to him. There could be a legitimate claim made that Chris Jericho is the most charismatic superstar ever.
Microphone Skills - One of the most important tools in being able to "get over" with the fans is the ability to cut a promo. Countless individuals, namely Shelton Benjamin and Matt Hardy, who are talented in the ring and look the part simply can't break through the glass ceiling because they fail to deliver behind a microphone. The microphone is a wrestler's best friend and most effective tool in capturing the attention of the audience, and keeping it. Chris Jericho is one of the best.
[youtube]y-RzPCLAw4E[/youtube]
[youtube]bcjwEEHIEL8[/youtube]
[youtube]lJyrwqsZ0q8[/youtube]
[youtube]it_Ps-Q_EYQ[/youtube]
[youtube]XLwXMc8ziaI&feature=related[/youtube]
These are just a few of Chris Jericho's multitude of spectacular promos. As you can see, he is very multi-talented. I don't know how better to explain it further than showing you through videos. I'd like to ask, who is better on the microphone than Chris Jericho? There are only a handful of superstars that can even enter this conversation, and none of them are Bret Hart.
Versatility - Versatility is perhaps my favorite thing that Jericho offers. He has been a crowd favorite as a face, and the most hated wrestler in the industry (In 2002 and 2008, according to the Wrestling Observer). He can make the crowd love him or hate him with just a few words, just as he did this past Monday night on RAW.
[youtube]QPfZq5rlmAE[/youtube]
Jericho can work any style of match with any opponent. He can be a luchador, wrestle a technical style match, overpower a smaller wrestler, or whatever else you ask him to do. Jericho has won match of the year honors in a ladder match, has wrestled hardcore matches, dog-collar matches, tables, ladders and chairs; he's done everything under the sun, and he's done everything better than most. No one posses the versatility of Chris Jericho.
Chris Jericho is the jack of all trades in wrestling. Normally, when that is said of a person, they are the master of none; not this time. In this case, Chris Jericho can do it all, and he can do it all at an exceptionally high level. An asset to the wrestling world should be able to perform anything required of him, and Chris Jericho can. Just as Ken Griffey Jr. is a five-tool player in baseball, you could consider Chris Jericho the five-tool wrestler.
Chris Jericho the Professional
It's no secret that Bret Hart and his former employer don't get along well. In fact, Bret Hart trashed the WWF, Vince McMahon, and many of his former co-workers after his departure. Regardless of the circumstance, that is not how a professional would behave. I don't want to venture too far into the discussion of the Montreal "Screw-Job", because that issue has been beaten to death. The fact remains, that Bret Hart was too proud to do what was best for the company. He couldn't set aside a little personal rivalry, bite the bullet, and just go out with class. Oh no, instead he had to whine and throw all his toys out of his crib, then act like he was wronged in the worst way when he should have just agreed to let Shawn win the match in the first place. If I'm a wrestling promoter, or an owner, and I'm looking for an asset to my company, I want a man that is professional. Bret Hart proved that he was not a professional.
On the other hand, you have Chris Jericho. The man has been nothing but a class act throughout his entire career. He's always been a company man, appearing on shows such as Nancy Grace and Larry King after the death of his close friend Chris Benoit and explaining the situation better, handling the entire thing perfectly. He's always done what's been asked of him in wrestling, when it comes to putting younger superstars over himself or carrying the company while the top star and draw is gone. Chris Jericho is more professional than Bret Hart, and that's non-debatable.
Chris Jericho the Man
Chris Jericho is a born-again Christian. I'm not here to preach, nor am I here to say that Christians are better than anyone. What I am going to say, is that typically you can trust a Christian to stay out of trouble, keep their word, and be an all-around good guy. Jericho has also been awarded The Order of the Buffalo Hunt in a ceremony held in Manitoba for his commitment to working with underprivileged children. That is a very high honor, one which has also been given to Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.
This also goes back to professionalism. Chris Jericho has never gotten in to any trouble with the law, has never gone through divorces, and has never had a drug problem. His image is squeaky clean, and that is great for your company.
Money and Exposure
I don't have pie charts, graphs, and quarterly reports to tell you how much merchandise each superstar has sold. I don't know the pay-per-view buy rate of SummerSlam '94. What I do know, is that neither Bret Hart or Chris Jericho are top draws in the United States. Ric Flair, a man very knowledgeable of the wrestling world, has criticized Hart for his inability to draw. Bret Hart also scored ratings as low at 1.9 during his tenure as WWF champion, in a period where wrestling was much, much more popular than it is today. Chris Jericho's title reigns have seen small drops in ratings, if at all, where as Bret is proven to lose viewers.
Bret Hart is also a very private man. He doesn't like to be out in the media, appearing on all sorts of shows. While I respect that, it's not good for business. Chris Jericho is all over the media, appearing on game shows, and on MTV and VH1. He has gone as far as to go on Larry King to further his feud with Mickey Rourke. All of this, including his tours with Fozzy give the WWE exposure, free exposure and advertising for them. Everywhere Jericho appears, he is linked to the WWE and to wrestling, which is very good for business. Bret Hart? Bret Hart was essentially a hermit, just doing his thing in the ring and then heading home and relaxing. There is nothing wrong with that from a personal standpoint, but when you're talking about who's the better asset for the world of professional wrestling, it has to be Chris Jericho. He creates more exposure for wrestling, and thus brings in new viewers, new revenue, and new money. Chris Jericho is better for business than Bret Hart.
Summary
Chris Jericho is a more well-rounded professional wrestler than Bret Hart. He's better behind the microphone, much more versatile, more charismatic, and nearly as good in the ring. Jericho is a professional, where as Bret acts like a child more often than not. Jericho's image is perfect, and is a man who can be the face of your company. Jericho also creates more exposure for the world of professional wrestling than Bret Hart, and brings in more money. These are the facts, and the facts say that Chris Jericho is a better asset to the professional wrestling universe than Bret Hart.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
You know what I've noticed? Debators in this league trying to make themselves appear smarter or more steadfast on an issue by defining very simple terms. Al it does it take up space. Defining words like "asset" and "charisma." If the judges need that defined for them, then they should not be judging.
They aren't? The amount of time that the WWF trusted Bret Hart to carry what was at the time one of only THREE championship belts doesn't suggest anything about their belief in him as an asset to the company?
The existance of a legitimate and believable champion is one of the few remaining stalwarts in professional wrestling linking fans to the willing suspension of disbelief that wrestling is real. Even though we know it isn't, it's the believability of its champion and its athletes that let's fans lose themselves in the choreography and the story. Bret Hart was given that honor for longer periods of time because he held interest and because people were extremely interested in his matches.
I will not debate with you that Jericho doesn't excel in these areas. He's WELL above the status quo in all of these areas. The difference? Bret is further above average than Jericho is.
Wrestling Ability - As you and I both know, Chris Jericho was trained in the same basement as Bret Hart, by the same people. He learned the same techniques and the same philosophies. Essentially, they were cut from the same mold. Bret Hart is hailed as the greatest worker in the ring ever, and I have to concede that he holds the edge over Chris Jericho here. (To say differently would be foolish.) However, that edge is very slight. Bret Hart has multiple matches of the year to his name, but Chris Jericho has also received the honor. (He'll likely win another for his work with Rey Mysterio this year.) Chris Jericho, throughout the entirety of his career, has given his all in the ring. He consistently puts on matches that are far above the average, and steals the show on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
So what you're saying here is "IC25 was absolutely right in his post. In terms of wrestling ability, Bret Hart has the edge over Chris Jericho. It's close, but Bret has the edge."
Bret isn't slam dunk better than Chris, but he's better enough. I don't care if you concede this point close or distant - the point is Hart is better and the evidence supports that fact. Bret is a better seller, a better worker. Chris learned from the people who taught Bret, only they taught Bret for a longer period of time, because Bret grew up on that dungeon. Chris, however, did not.
Considering your wikipedia definition amount to "the definition of charisma is that it is undefined," I'd say no, it's not a good definition. Your second, definition, however, makes perfect sense:
Sure, Jericho is extremely charismatic. Is Bret not? The fact that Bret transitions from being on the top heel tag team in the WWF to the top face tag team in the WWF almost seemlessly? Or how about when Bret was the undisputed babyface World Champion, and with the crowds eating out of his hand at every turn, managed to become the biggest heel in one country and the biggest babyface in another?
Those chants of "Y2J" you heard Monday Night on RAW - you may refer to that as "The Bret Hart Effect." Bret was the first pro wrestler to so effectively turn the fans of one nation against the fans of another, Jericho is merely inheriting Bret's residual pro-Canadian heat.
You posted videos. Just watch the entrance here. Jericho has rarely gotten a reaction like Bret's faction got here:
[youtube]diF-xZ6I72Y[/youtube]
Ridiculous. You do understand that there is a difference between being charismatic and being loud, right? The great part about Bret Hart was that he could connect to the fans without the use of cheap pops, without needing to call the boss's daughter a ****, without needing poetry, etc. Bret made every promo about his matches, his struggles, and the WWF Title. To THAT end, BECAUSE of Bret's work, the WWF Title had significantly more relevance when Bret was in the picture. Not only did the fans care about Bret, they cared about the title picture. THAT is charisma, THAT is the ability to tell a story.
Yep, Jericho can make people laugh, and Jericho can call fans hypocrites and sycophants, and he can say funny quips about Stephanie McMahon. Does he draw the emotion out of people that Bret did?
Bret's refusal to fight Owen Hart after Owen's turn. Bret's disappointment about having to fight Owen. Bret's work discussing the term "respect" and his turn on the fans, talking about how Steve Austin doesn't respect anything. Bret ellicited more genuine emotion in his promos than most men. Need proof?
[youtube]bldeNhLeG9w[/youtube]
Jericho is a funny guy on the mic, and he's a fun sniveling weasel heel. SO is Santino Marella - is HE in Bret's league?
A major reason Bret Hart was the bigger asset to professional wrestling was his ability to use realistic and emotional promos to promote and carry feuds, add legitimacy to a title picture, and rally fans to a cause. Few wrestlers in history have done that as well as Bret, and Jericho hsn't come close.
Chris Jericho has never been the biggest babyface NOR has he been the biggest heel. In 2002, Jericho was the most hated wrestler partially because the other good hated wrestlers weren't around. Triple H had gone face. Who was the competition, really?
But in 1997, Bret Hart managed to win that SAME most hated award, despite the fact that Hollywood Hogan was in his heel prime! THAT is an accomplishment! Bret Hart managed to turn two entire countries against one another! He worked the 1993 Feud of the Year as a babyface, and the 1997 Feud of the Year as a heel.
Bret Hart has been one of the most versatile men in wrestling history, because of his ability to transition seemlessly between top face and top heel - an ability only men like Hogan, Austin, Savage, and Flair have ever done. Jericho has flip flopped between face and heel so many times, it's almost impossible to keep track.
Bret isn't a top rope guy becase of his focus on keeping the match safe as well as believable. Bret is a far better technical wrestler than Jericho as evidenced by his matches with men like Mr. Perfect, Bob Backlund, and his submission match with Steve Austin. Bret Hart got over before Hardcore wrestling was a requirement. Bret Hart invented and launched the ladder match, without which there would be NO TLC! So if Jericho has won MOTY in a type of match that Bret invented, doesn't that make BRET the bigger asset? In addition, Bret has worked with smaller guys like Michaels and Benoit masterfully, stronger guys like Goldberg and Razor Ramon, and even got two consecutive Wrestlemania main events out of Yokozuna! Had Jericho worked effectively against a man of that size? Bret Hart is undoubtedly the more versatile, which make him the greater asset because of his ability to wrestle anyone. Would Jericho have gotten decent feuds out of Isaac Yankem, Hakushi, and Jean-Pierre Lafitte?
It's a business, my friend. You said yourself before that you're young. When an employer lies to you and disrespects you the way that was done to Bret, you're not going to say "well, I don't mind being walked over and lied to, after all, whatever is best for the company..."
And since it's such a business, after all of the issues Bret and Vince had, Vince STILL had the foresight to bring Bret back into the fold and induct him into the Hall of Fame. Why? Because he's a huge asset to the WWF, that is why. Just look at his DVD sales and his book sales...
Wow, NOW you are grasping at straws. SO because Jericho's a born-again means he's a better man than Bret, ergo a bigger asset to the company?
Shawn Michaels' heyday in wrestling was pre-born again when he was an arrogant womanizer. But he was still a HUGE asset. Ric Flair kept the NWA alive despite being a guy who went out every night to drink and sleep with fans. And do I even need to get started on Hogan?
Wait, I'm sorry, none of those men has won the Order of the Buffalo Hunt. I should just concede the debate right now...
So you're saying that CM Punk is better than Hogan, Austin, and Savage? Okay, duly noted. Since we obviously have to take things like divorce rate into account...
Below you even state that Bret is a private man. Exactly right - he keeps his personal life separate from his professional life! And if your brother had died in a stunt-gone-wrong at your former employer's building, would you be a bit miffed as well? But we'll overlook that. We'll also overlook the fact that a major reason Bret was tapped to be champion in 1993 was to portray a cleaner image in pro wrestling amidst Hogan and McMahon's steroid allegations.
Jericho is none of those things. He isn't more well rounded than Hart, and I've explained why. He isn't better on the mic, and I've explained why. If Jericho was a "professional, company man" he would have gone down with the WCW ship. He did the same thing Bret did when he left WWF for WCW - he went where he felt he'd be better off. And if you look even just at book and DVD sales, Hart is miles ahead of Jericho.
Chris Jericho is awesome. But Bret Hart is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be for a reason. And it's great that Jericho is trying to emulate Bret - he's just not there.
They aren't? The amount of time that the WWF trusted Bret Hart to carry what was at the time one of only THREE championship belts doesn't suggest anything about their belief in him as an asset to the company?
The existance of a legitimate and believable champion is one of the few remaining stalwarts in professional wrestling linking fans to the willing suspension of disbelief that wrestling is real. Even though we know it isn't, it's the believability of its champion and its athletes that let's fans lose themselves in the choreography and the story. Bret Hart was given that honor for longer periods of time because he held interest and because people were extremely interested in his matches.
I will not debate with you that Jericho doesn't excel in these areas. He's WELL above the status quo in all of these areas. The difference? Bret is further above average than Jericho is.
Wrestling Ability - As you and I both know, Chris Jericho was trained in the same basement as Bret Hart, by the same people. He learned the same techniques and the same philosophies. Essentially, they were cut from the same mold. Bret Hart is hailed as the greatest worker in the ring ever, and I have to concede that he holds the edge over Chris Jericho here. (To say differently would be foolish.) However, that edge is very slight. Bret Hart has multiple matches of the year to his name, but Chris Jericho has also received the honor. (He'll likely win another for his work with Rey Mysterio this year.) Chris Jericho, throughout the entirety of his career, has given his all in the ring. He consistently puts on matches that are far above the average, and steals the show on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
So what you're saying here is "IC25 was absolutely right in his post. In terms of wrestling ability, Bret Hart has the edge over Chris Jericho. It's close, but Bret has the edge."
Bret isn't slam dunk better than Chris, but he's better enough. I don't care if you concede this point close or distant - the point is Hart is better and the evidence supports that fact. Bret is a better seller, a better worker. Chris learned from the people who taught Bret, only they taught Bret for a longer period of time, because Bret grew up on that dungeon. Chris, however, did not.
Considering your wikipedia definition amount to "the definition of charisma is that it is undefined," I'd say no, it's not a good definition. Your second, definition, however, makes perfect sense:
Sure, Jericho is extremely charismatic. Is Bret not? The fact that Bret transitions from being on the top heel tag team in the WWF to the top face tag team in the WWF almost seemlessly? Or how about when Bret was the undisputed babyface World Champion, and with the crowds eating out of his hand at every turn, managed to become the biggest heel in one country and the biggest babyface in another?
Those chants of "Y2J" you heard Monday Night on RAW - you may refer to that as "The Bret Hart Effect." Bret was the first pro wrestler to so effectively turn the fans of one nation against the fans of another, Jericho is merely inheriting Bret's residual pro-Canadian heat.
You posted videos. Just watch the entrance here. Jericho has rarely gotten a reaction like Bret's faction got here:
[youtube]diF-xZ6I72Y[/youtube]
Ridiculous. You do understand that there is a difference between being charismatic and being loud, right? The great part about Bret Hart was that he could connect to the fans without the use of cheap pops, without needing to call the boss's daughter a ****, without needing poetry, etc. Bret made every promo about his matches, his struggles, and the WWF Title. To THAT end, BECAUSE of Bret's work, the WWF Title had significantly more relevance when Bret was in the picture. Not only did the fans care about Bret, they cared about the title picture. THAT is charisma, THAT is the ability to tell a story.
Yep, Jericho can make people laugh, and Jericho can call fans hypocrites and sycophants, and he can say funny quips about Stephanie McMahon. Does he draw the emotion out of people that Bret did?
Bret's refusal to fight Owen Hart after Owen's turn. Bret's disappointment about having to fight Owen. Bret's work discussing the term "respect" and his turn on the fans, talking about how Steve Austin doesn't respect anything. Bret ellicited more genuine emotion in his promos than most men. Need proof?
[youtube]bldeNhLeG9w[/youtube]
Jericho is a funny guy on the mic, and he's a fun sniveling weasel heel. SO is Santino Marella - is HE in Bret's league?
A major reason Bret Hart was the bigger asset to professional wrestling was his ability to use realistic and emotional promos to promote and carry feuds, add legitimacy to a title picture, and rally fans to a cause. Few wrestlers in history have done that as well as Bret, and Jericho hsn't come close.
Chris Jericho has never been the biggest babyface NOR has he been the biggest heel. In 2002, Jericho was the most hated wrestler partially because the other good hated wrestlers weren't around. Triple H had gone face. Who was the competition, really?
But in 1997, Bret Hart managed to win that SAME most hated award, despite the fact that Hollywood Hogan was in his heel prime! THAT is an accomplishment! Bret Hart managed to turn two entire countries against one another! He worked the 1993 Feud of the Year as a babyface, and the 1997 Feud of the Year as a heel.
Bret Hart has been one of the most versatile men in wrestling history, because of his ability to transition seemlessly between top face and top heel - an ability only men like Hogan, Austin, Savage, and Flair have ever done. Jericho has flip flopped between face and heel so many times, it's almost impossible to keep track.
Bret isn't a top rope guy becase of his focus on keeping the match safe as well as believable. Bret is a far better technical wrestler than Jericho as evidenced by his matches with men like Mr. Perfect, Bob Backlund, and his submission match with Steve Austin. Bret Hart got over before Hardcore wrestling was a requirement. Bret Hart invented and launched the ladder match, without which there would be NO TLC! So if Jericho has won MOTY in a type of match that Bret invented, doesn't that make BRET the bigger asset? In addition, Bret has worked with smaller guys like Michaels and Benoit masterfully, stronger guys like Goldberg and Razor Ramon, and even got two consecutive Wrestlemania main events out of Yokozuna! Had Jericho worked effectively against a man of that size? Bret Hart is undoubtedly the more versatile, which make him the greater asset because of his ability to wrestle anyone. Would Jericho have gotten decent feuds out of Isaac Yankem, Hakushi, and Jean-Pierre Lafitte?
It's a business, my friend. You said yourself before that you're young. When an employer lies to you and disrespects you the way that was done to Bret, you're not going to say "well, I don't mind being walked over and lied to, after all, whatever is best for the company..."
And since it's such a business, after all of the issues Bret and Vince had, Vince STILL had the foresight to bring Bret back into the fold and induct him into the Hall of Fame. Why? Because he's a huge asset to the WWF, that is why. Just look at his DVD sales and his book sales...
Wow, NOW you are grasping at straws. SO because Jericho's a born-again means he's a better man than Bret, ergo a bigger asset to the company?
Shawn Michaels' heyday in wrestling was pre-born again when he was an arrogant womanizer. But he was still a HUGE asset. Ric Flair kept the NWA alive despite being a guy who went out every night to drink and sleep with fans. And do I even need to get started on Hogan?
Wait, I'm sorry, none of those men has won the Order of the Buffalo Hunt. I should just concede the debate right now...
So you're saying that CM Punk is better than Hogan, Austin, and Savage? Okay, duly noted. Since we obviously have to take things like divorce rate into account...
Below you even state that Bret is a private man. Exactly right - he keeps his personal life separate from his professional life! And if your brother had died in a stunt-gone-wrong at your former employer's building, would you be a bit miffed as well? But we'll overlook that. We'll also overlook the fact that a major reason Bret was tapped to be champion in 1993 was to portray a cleaner image in pro wrestling amidst Hogan and McMahon's steroid allegations.
Jericho is none of those things. He isn't more well rounded than Hart, and I've explained why. He isn't better on the mic, and I've explained why. If Jericho was a "professional, company man" he would have gone down with the WCW ship. He did the same thing Bret did when he left WWF for WCW - he went where he felt he'd be better off. And if you look even just at book and DVD sales, Hart is miles ahead of Jericho.
Chris Jericho is awesome. But Bret Hart is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be for a reason. And it's great that Jericho is trying to emulate Bret - he's just not there.
Well unfortunately we did not get all of this debate settled. Probably my two favourite wrestlers of all time put in this round, as well as the finals of the tournament this year. Lets see how you did.
Clarity of debate- 1 point
I looked and I could only find one mistake IC made in grammar in both posts. That really cannot balance out his beautiful layout of information. I give him this point.
Punctuality- 1 point
48.7 has to lose this point, as he was late for most of it, and IC was able to post like a rocket.
Informative- 1 point
I know these two wrestlers like I know my own testicles. So I know when bullshit is brought forth, and 48.7, you were filled with it
. IC was able to use some great information that really made it in his favour here. 48.7, next time you bring in some infromation, back it up a little better.
Emotionality- 1 point
I feel 48.7 lacked the ability to post anything better than hatred for his opponents choice, and little love for his. IC was able to overcome his love, and post a great debate, and didn't try dirty tactics in the debate.
Persuasion- 1 point
Maybe if it were to go longer, than IC would have been challenged here, but I must give him the point for the persuasion.
TM rates this 5 points IC to 0 points 48.7.
Clarity of debate- 1 point
I looked and I could only find one mistake IC made in grammar in both posts. That really cannot balance out his beautiful layout of information. I give him this point.
Punctuality- 1 point
48.7 has to lose this point, as he was late for most of it, and IC was able to post like a rocket.
Informative- 1 point
I know these two wrestlers like I know my own testicles. So I know when bullshit is brought forth, and 48.7, you were filled with it
. IC was able to use some great information that really made it in his favour here. 48.7, next time you bring in some infromation, back it up a little better.Emotionality- 1 point
I feel 48.7 lacked the ability to post anything better than hatred for his opponents choice, and little love for his. IC was able to overcome his love, and post a great debate, and didn't try dirty tactics in the debate.
Persuasion- 1 point
Maybe if it were to go longer, than IC would have been challenged here, but I must give him the point for the persuasion.
TM rates this 5 points IC to 0 points 48.7.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
When should we expect the rest of the judge's scores?
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Clarity Of Debate - IrishCanadian25 laid everything out perfectly. I don't what else to say.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Punctuality: IrishCanadian25 gets the point.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Informative: Some of your stuff brought a bemused look to my face, 48.7. You could have done a lot with Bret Hart's lack of professionalism, but who cares if Jericho's a born-again Christan? Evangelicals are known for swindling people out of money, so you can't say that born-again Christians are categorically trustworthy people.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Emotionality: 48.7, you are such a sly, sly bastard. The next Karl Rove is right here, folks.
Point: 48.7
Persuasion: You had a lot of opportunity here, 48.7. You probably had a lot to do besides debate, so, I'm looking forward to what you do in the future. Hopefully, you'll get a rematch with IrishCanadian25 in the playoffs.
Point: IrishCanadian25
tdigle's Score
IrishCandian25: 4
48.7: 1
Point: IrishCanadian25
Punctuality: IrishCanadian25 gets the point.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Informative: Some of your stuff brought a bemused look to my face, 48.7. You could have done a lot with Bret Hart's lack of professionalism, but who cares if Jericho's a born-again Christan? Evangelicals are known for swindling people out of money, so you can't say that born-again Christians are categorically trustworthy people.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Emotionality: 48.7, you are such a sly, sly bastard. The next Karl Rove is right here, folks.
Point: 48.7
Persuasion: You had a lot of opportunity here, 48.7. You probably had a lot to do besides debate, so, I'm looking forward to what you do in the future. Hopefully, you'll get a rematch with IrishCanadian25 in the playoffs.
Point: IrishCanadian25
tdigle's Score
IrishCandian25: 4
48.7: 1
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Clarity of Debate
Both arguments were clear grammar and spelling wise and despite 48/7's lack of confidence, I still thought his side was solid. However, IC25 went out of his way to give his side of the argument that extra oomph. Though his argument wasn't perfect and still contained some holes, the argument was still the better written overall of the two.
Point: IC25
Punctuality
48/7 missed the deadline a few times, point goes to IC25
Point: IC25
Informative
Both debates had holes, however some were deeper than others... How does Jericho's personal life make him a better pro wrestler than Bret Hart? Jericho wasn't a saint when it came to his personal life either. Sugar coating your offense 48/7 will get you no where in the end.
I'll give the point to IC because I found his argument to have less inconsistencies.
Point: IC25
Emotionally
48/7 lack of confidence kills him here, even if you were struggling with your personal life you could have masked this with your exuberance in your argument.
Point: IC
Persuasion
It seems like 48/7 was having a bad week as this argument wasn't quite as good as some of the others he has posted. IC25 is a tough opponent, very well educated, and extremely well versed in his thinking.
The topic really could have gone either way and maybe if redone the outcome very easily could have been different. I feel that IC's argument just have that oomph, that extra ingredient to convince the fence sitters to flock to his side.
Point: IC25
Echelon's rating
IC25 - 5 points
48/7 - 0 points
Both arguments were clear grammar and spelling wise and despite 48/7's lack of confidence, I still thought his side was solid. However, IC25 went out of his way to give his side of the argument that extra oomph. Though his argument wasn't perfect and still contained some holes, the argument was still the better written overall of the two.
Point: IC25
Punctuality
48/7 missed the deadline a few times, point goes to IC25
Point: IC25
Informative
Both debates had holes, however some were deeper than others... How does Jericho's personal life make him a better pro wrestler than Bret Hart? Jericho wasn't a saint when it came to his personal life either. Sugar coating your offense 48/7 will get you no where in the end.
I'll give the point to IC because I found his argument to have less inconsistencies.
Point: IC25
Emotionally
48/7 lack of confidence kills him here, even if you were struggling with your personal life you could have masked this with your exuberance in your argument.
Point: IC
Persuasion
It seems like 48/7 was having a bad week as this argument wasn't quite as good as some of the others he has posted. IC25 is a tough opponent, very well educated, and extremely well versed in his thinking.
The topic really could have gone either way and maybe if redone the outcome very easily could have been different. I feel that IC's argument just have that oomph, that extra ingredient to convince the fence sitters to flock to his side.
Point: IC25
Echelon's rating
IC25 - 5 points
48/7 - 0 points
Clarity of Debate - IC
IC's opening argument has to be the most well written, spaced, and neatest post I have seen so far in the league. It was bolded, and he made a clear cut between each of his points.
Punctuality- IC
IC gets the point be default
Informative- IC
As I think Diglett mentioned once, it's gonna be hard to beat IC in this category. IC brought relevant information from Hart's whole wrestling career to support his argument. While 487 didn't present information that helped his debate, like Jericho's life outside of wrestling, nor did he back it.
Emotionally- IC
487 didn't show much emotion at all since he felt from the start this was a losing battle. While IC debated aggressively in his one rebuttal towards 487 against one of his all time favorites in Jericho.
Persuasion- IC
IC hands down. 487's opening post wasn't enough to persuade me in any way. While IC just backed what he said perfectly in his response to 487's opening post.
IC- 5 points
487- 0 points
IC's opening argument has to be the most well written, spaced, and neatest post I have seen so far in the league. It was bolded, and he made a clear cut between each of his points.
Punctuality- IC
IC gets the point be default
Informative- IC
As I think Diglett mentioned once, it's gonna be hard to beat IC in this category. IC brought relevant information from Hart's whole wrestling career to support his argument. While 487 didn't present information that helped his debate, like Jericho's life outside of wrestling, nor did he back it.
Emotionally- IC
487 didn't show much emotion at all since he felt from the start this was a losing battle. While IC debated aggressively in his one rebuttal towards 487 against one of his all time favorites in Jericho.
Persuasion- IC
IC hands down. 487's opening post wasn't enough to persuade me in any way. While IC just backed what he said perfectly in his response to 487's opening post.
IC- 5 points
487- 0 points
Clarity Of Debate - IC had some well organized posts. Therefore he gets hte point
Point: IrishCanadian25
Punctuality: IC was on time. 48/7 missed the deadline. Therefore IC gets the point.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Informative: 487 was beating around the bush and IC did a good job not scooping to new lows. I believe his posts were very informative.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Emotionality: I think this was hard on both posters. IC had to argue against his favorite, and he did a good job in believing everything he had typed up. Therefore IC gets the point.
Point: IC
Persuasion: Both had opportunities but I believe IC did a better job at keeping us interested. I didn't really need persuading but 487 did nothing to persuade me and IC did all to keep me in. Point goes to IC.
Point: IrishCanadian25
IrishCandian25: 5
48.7: 0
Point: IrishCanadian25
Punctuality: IC was on time. 48/7 missed the deadline. Therefore IC gets the point.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Informative: 487 was beating around the bush and IC did a good job not scooping to new lows. I believe his posts were very informative.
Point: IrishCanadian25
Emotionality: I think this was hard on both posters. IC had to argue against his favorite, and he did a good job in believing everything he had typed up. Therefore IC gets the point.
Point: IC
Persuasion: Both had opportunities but I believe IC did a better job at keeping us interested. I didn't really need persuading but 487 did nothing to persuade me and IC did all to keep me in. Point goes to IC.
Point: IrishCanadian25
IrishCandian25: 5
48.7: 0
