VKM Savior or Destroyer?

[FreedomOfMan]

Hello Wz'ers or whatever you like to be called. People, yeah that sounds good. So People, this is my first thread, and I did not find this topic anyway, but if i missed it, please Admins, tear this mother effer down.

But as the title suggest, I am throwing the question if people think Vincent Kennedy Mcmahon in the long run of things, saved the wrestling business or destroyed it. We all know he revolutionized with hulk and again with Ol' Stone Cold. But in the relativity of things, these are short burst of life to an other creature just seemingly waiting to gives its last breathe. The acquisition of ECW and WCW seem to have been the seemed to have been the last real burst the industry may receive for a long time before the proverbial beast finally expires. Now, I'm no mind reader but I may be way off the mark, their may be more things ahead in the Wrestling world, but there is no doubt people can sense the world of wrestling may eventually fold.

To give my thoughts, I believe through his acts of saving wrestling, VKM ultimately doomed wrestling, wittingly and unwillingly. The acquisition of the competition and the utter destruction of awesome potential due to what may have you(ego maybe) tied in the creation of tough enough (yes I was never a fan of tough enough and I'll explain why) has slapped a death sentence into the wrestling world that we have no idea when the time may come, but we do sense it sooner or later.

The Creation of tough enough led the way to Marks and Smarks. It opened people to a world where we as fans really had no business being introduced to, and thus, the suspension of disbelief was severely crippled. For me, TE took alot of wrestling away from me when it first premiered and I was 17 at the time. Mind you, this is still a time where wrestling was still considered real by many people. Now the web played a factor too, but I feel that Tough Enough was not needed. Look at the champions and other wrestlers we've created for example: Miz: though proving to be a credible champion, he will always be plagued by the stigma of Reality Star rather than inoculated with the title of Professional Wrestler. Though Tough Enough has been a great asset to wwe and it's wrestlers(debatable) in the long run, it really has done more damage than good to the industry.

The Acquisition of Competition: Though proving the He is the "bestest" I feel this is VKM's biggest error or at least the way he handled it was a huge error. The fall of ECW and WCW has undoubtedly made WWE lazy, and TNA is not helping either, but thats another thread. This monopoly has taken the proverbial "thrill" out of Pro wrestling. Adding to the acquisitions the creation of the no compete clause a few years prior to the acquisitions. Though a great business move(also debatable) this has stifled the ability for the competition to capitalize and thus, making WWE even more lazy.

A beast who consumes all will eventually run out of food and will eventually starve. This is the potential monopoly of WWE. So i ask, with everything thats happened thus far in the WWE, do you feel that in the long run, VKM may have inflicted a wound in the wrestling world from which it may never recover from and eventually die in the years, or has he created and unstoppable beast that will never topple and thus always will be the symbol of Professional Wrestling? I do hope that wrestling will reach another Zenith like the Rock n Wrestling and Attitude Era, but from the lame crowds we see now, to lame-duck announcers and our comparisons to the past equated with the crop of wrestlers we're seeing this day (due to lack of territories, another con of the acquisitions) in about 10 years, I really can't see wrestling being around, or at least drawing the same number of crowds we see now. what say you?

 

[thraxiusrex]

Vince isn't the savior of professional wrestling as we know it, he's the CREATOR. Destroyer? Not a chance.

Every single poster on here probably wouldn't be posting, wouldn't be watching ANY wrestling on television let alone WWE, etc. if it weren't for Vince McMahon. I'm not even going to bother supporting this argument because it's been done to death, and if you don't know your wrestling history, go do some reading.
The only downside that I've seen is something Jim Ross tweeted recently: that the loss of the territorial system means younger prospects don't get as seasoned anymore.
But I will address your concerns.

Tough Enough: Didn't create smarks. I read about the original Tough Enough on a wrestling website when it debuted. 'Nuff said.

Absorbing the Competition: I do believe this has reduced the general quality of wrestling, but it's not Vince's fault. He didn't buy WCW or ECW when they were in their prime. Both promotions were in STEEP decline. WCW and ECW were eating themselves alive head first. Vince just picked up the scraps and now he makes DVD's with the footage.

 

[FreedomOfMan]

Well, if you wanna be dickish about it, Pro wrestling existed weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllll before VKM brought it to public. No, He did not create it. You're watching an evolution of wresting which has been created by VKM.

As for the Marks, remember, at that time, having comps and online was something of a new thing. Hell, AOL and dial up was all the craze and if you had a cable modem, you were looked upon as a GOD.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse if it's a topic driven in the ground, but I am curious of peoples Opinions on the matter. But if you're saying his acquisitions were scraps, those were pretty expensive scraps my friend. The main reason for dubbya-see-dubbya's fall was turner pretty much not financing any long( another thread). I believe that WCW could have been revived if ol' tuner ted didnt stop.

Don't get me wrong, I take nothing away from VKM. BUT the monopolizing of wrestling has definitely taken it's toll. So much that everyone is looking for another company to be the savior of an other bleak wrestling world( TNA, what happened guy?). and I wanted everyones opinions on the matter at hand.

 

[LynchCats]

The reason Ted Turner stopped funding WCW was because it was already in a steep decline after Bischoff and company ran it into the ground. WCW's major failing was announcing what WWE's results were on their show, and when they announced Mankind's title win, everyone went to watch WWE and that ended the 84 week WCW winning streak and saw the beginning of the end. If I remember reading correctly from Ric Flair's book, even his own kids turned the channel to WWE that week. The only way WCW could have been revived is if someone other than VKM bought the company, but there was no interest.

To stay on topic however, VKM was the innovator of what we now call "sports entertainment". He took "wrasslin'" and made it mainstream and made it more of an entertainment option than a sporting event. He definitely did not destroy wrestling, nor did he "save" wrestling. So, my answer is neither. He evolved the business from a "wrestling" business to a "sports entertainment" business.

If wrestling was destroyed, there would be no TNA, no ROH, or any of the indy promotions that still exist.

 

[JH27]

When they announced Mankind's title win, everyone went to watch WWE and that ended the 84 week WCW winning streak


if someone other than VKM bought the company, but there was no interest.

Before I get to the topic at hand I would just like to address these two issues.

1. WWE had already ended the streak on April 13, 1998. the mankind title win didn't happen until the december of that year.

2. There was intrest in purchasing the compan, bischoff had a group ready to take over but due to the fact that they wouldn't get the TV time it was pulled, and McMahon got the company for a pretty cheapprice.


Now whether VKM is actually the saviour or destroyer of Profesional Wrestling

I say destroyer as to him wrestling is now a dirty word and don't want to be associated with it any longer. (see the article on the main site as proof)

But for sports entertainment creator and saviour (rock and wrestling being the genisis and the attitude era being the rebirth)

 

[PhD]

Don't people ever get sick of making threads like this? It is absolutely impossible to say what wrestling today would be like if MMA hadn't blown up in the last 5 years. If anything is "destroying" wrestling, that is it. It's pretty hard to sell people fake fighting once they know what real fighting looks like.

And seriously, Tough Enough invented smarks...you don't think anyone before that was smart enough to figure out that wrestling is a performance art?

Pro-wrestling has been around for over 100 years, and has had numerous ups and downs in that time. The chances that it goes away altogether seems pretty slim to me.

 

[cboedeker2]

Savior? No. Creator? No. Revolutionized? No doubt. Vince McMahon did not create wrestling, but he did revolutionize it, and he is the reason why most every poster in these forums is here. Without him, none of us would have started, or continued, for that matter, watching WWE. As for you saying that the WWE will soon "breathe it's last breath", I find that doubtful. There's one thing that Vince McMahon has never been in his life, and that's a loser, a failure. Sure, He has had things fail on him before (ex: XFL), but with WWE he has weathered the storms since Vince took over from his dad, and I don't see them just rolling over and dying now. Vince will also do ANYTHING to sell tickets. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Vince would cut off his "grape fruits" on national TV if he thought it would get him some ratings. Hell, people kept on complaining that this year's WrestleMania looked weak, so what did Vince do? He called in the big guns and stacked the shit out of the card. If Vince ever gets desperate to the point where the company may go under, he'll throw every penny he has into that company to keep it alive. Anyway, just my two cents.

 

[UFOcalling]

In my opinion, I don't think Tough Enough was the first "reality" show to expose wrestling. Do you remember those shows in the mid-nineties where they exposed how wrestling really worked? I remember there was a similar show (or special, at the very least) where a masked magician exposed how certain magic tricks were done. I can't remember what the shows were called, but the premise was this:

There was a couple of masked wrestlers in a ring, a referee, and a narrator (who was off-screen). The narrator basically explained what was going on in the ring - ie: the wrestlers were calling the match as they went, the ref was passing messages between the two wrestlers, etc. I remember they exposed "blading" in those specials as well. Watching those shows were my first time seeing the business of pro-wrestling/sports entertainment exposed. I think they did a lot more to expose the business than Tough Enough did, but that's just my opinion. I might be wrong, but I thought those shows were on before Tough Enough started. I imagine that Vince & Co. must have been ROYALLY pissed off about those shows, since they were completely "exposing" the biz (and definitely weren't a product of Titan Sports).

Some of the stuff in those shows were ridiculous, and things that even common fans already knew...but it still shone a light on pro wrestling in such a way that hadn't been shown on television before. I think it was more about trying to capitalize on the wrestling boom in the mid-to-late 1990s than anything else, but still was the public's first pro wrestling "Exposé". I think it was even on one of the major networks, if I'm not mistaken.

I also remember that Vince was royally pissed off about Hogan & Bischoff's "Celebrity Wrestling" (or whatever that show was called). I could have sworn that Vince said something like anyone who worked for that show will forever be black-balled from the WWE for "exposing the business" (or something like that). Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't think Vince ever wanted pro wrestling "secrets" to become the common knowledge that it is now. The OP is right though, the internet definitely played a huge role in that as well.

I pretty much agree with the majority here, I don't think VKM was the "savior" or "destroyer" of modern pro-wrestling. Although Vince was the guy who brought wrestling to a national level, he definitely didn't reinvent the wheel or anything. Pro wrestling has always had the simple formula of face vs. heel, and all Vince did was pump a shit-load of money into promoting it better than anyone else could in the early 1980s. It was a right place/right time scenario for Vince. If Vince hadn't have done it, someone else surely would have.

I can understand your point, about the WWE currently having a "monopoly" over modern pro wrestling; with his acquisition of both ECW & WCW, but again you really have to call that another right place/right time scenario. You also have to see that there are alternatives to WWE, that are still on a national scale with TNA & RoH. Granted, neither company are nearly as big, or have the finances that WWE has, but they're still national companies.

 

[thraxiusrex]

I don't know where you're getting your revised history, but most of the people in this thread are deluding themselves when it comes to VKM's role in professional wrestling.

Do you even realize how different the pro wrestling industry became after the first Wrestlemania? No, Vince didn't invent wrestling. I never claimed that he did. But he did invent sports entertainment, which is what professional wrestling is now. Even TNA. Post WWF pro wrestling has as much to do with pre WWF wrestling as the Beatles has to do with slave working songs. Not trying to be incendiary here, just trying to make a point.

 

[WolfNyte]

I would like to clarify something here that many forget on what added to the downfall of WCW.

Ted Turner was loosing money not only on WCW but Turner Network Television and CNN was barely pulling a profit. Fonda was also divorcing him at the time. So ole Teddy had an offer put in front of him from...anyone...anyone America On Line yes ole AOL and he took it hence it became Time Warner AOL.

Within a week or two AOL decided WCW was a cash leech and said hey you have a month then its done its over. Bishoff and Hogan put a plug in to purchase it but no network wanted them TNT, TBS they were part of AOL now so it was a no go. Spike had WWE at that time so again no one wanted them. So B & H Pulled the offer.

Vinnie Mic Mic Micmanakin came in and bought it for a song to preserve the old tapes and other goodies that AOL would have just thrown out. VM SAVED the history of NWA/WCW by doing that not killing it.

ECW come on guys for years the workers talked about bounced checks and not getting paid. Even when VM was handing them cash below the table ...remember the WWE invades ECW angle...he even tried to save it before he bought it.

Hell I remember ECW being played at midnights friday nights on the MSG network in 1998 and 1999. Again VM SAVED the history of the orginization since it had bled to death.

I can say this as well as for the tough enough comment...Dude by the time you are 13 if you dont know its fake and scripted you really need to see a mental professional since you have an issue with reality. Vinnie Mac showed us all that these rasslers are as well trained and work as hard as other sports players. In fact even harder because they are responsible for their opponents saftey as well as their own. We all know its scripted but its all good FUN...I repeat GOOD FUN.

 

[CelticCorey]

I tend to think of Vince McMahon as the George Steinbrenner of professional wrestling. He changed the business and forever shook up its foundation; but in a way, you can say he watered it down severely. Steinbrenner was, in a sense, monopolizing the MLB by paying so much money for all this top talent. People don't see baseball as a game anymore. They see it as these players demanding all this money. Just like the Million Dollar Man's theme: money, money, money, money moneeeeeyyyyyy.

Now, for Vince. Yes he did forever change it. He has given us a lot of great memories over the year. Loads of great moments, icons and classics that will forever stick in our mind. He took a territory and made it global; but really professional wrestling was watered down after the Monday Night Wars in 2001. He bought out the competition. Now I know that the AOL/Time Warner and the network not wanting to keep WCW on TV, but damnit it was wrong that Vinny Mac bought out the competition and then made them look like fools.

I really hate it when Vince (and some people) have this logic that if you're not big in WWE, then you're nothing. Mr. Kennedy fucked up in WWE; but in TNA as Mr. Anderson, he's one of their biggest stars and he is perhaps the top babyface (although he is mostly tweener) in the company. I still see him as a big deal. He seems to win over the people in TNA and he's won me over.

I guess Vern Gagne is a bum. Nick Bockwinkel? Fuck him. Great Muta, Jushin Liger, Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Sting- they all suck because they didn't have a run in WWE.

I mean wrestling was at its peak in the 90s. People were aware of the big three: WCW, WWF and ECW. WWE has no true competition now. Go to a WWE show and ask a casual fan if they've heard of TNA or ROH, how many will say yes? If you ask a kiddie the same question, what do YOU think they'll say?

Vince is a smart enough businessman to keep wrestling alive today; but he sure as hell didn't do any favors to saving wrestling as used to know it and for better or for worse, really changed wrestling. So while I wouldn't call him the destroyer of wrestling, I do think he watered it down.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

Vince can be viewed many different ways. My view is this:

On hand, Vince took WWF to heights it had never seen and at the same time brought exposure to the industry to the mainstream during the time of Hogan, Hulkamania and the Rock and Roll Era of the eighties. He created a program that children would watch and gained commercial attention to a business that was once viewed as a joke. He then did it again during the Attitude Era. He was brilliant for accomplishing that and to deny his genius would be absurd.

On the other hand, the wrestling business is a tough one, it's a dog eat dog world and no one has been more cutthroat than Vince. He would grab the top talent from smaller promtions and in the process cripple them and hurt their ability to make income. If what I heard is true, (only rumours, not anything I can verify), Vince would threaten to boycott arenas that had his competitors' events. This crippled other promotions. I don't have enough time to talk about how he treated his talent the good and the bad. Through his actions he built WWE to be the dominant promotion in the industry in North America (at least). I don't think it helps this industry to have such a huge gap between how much WWE makes and its closest competitiors. He didn't destroy wrestling. He sort of put it either in a coma or on life support. How it recovers is still up in the air.

 

[Clem]

I think Harvey Dent said it best in The Dark Knight "you die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain". Ladies and gentlemen, Vincent Kennedy McMahon!

Back in 2001, he was at the top of the business. He'd just bought out both of his rivals, WCW and ECW. No one could touch him. He'd WON. After all these struggles, you'd think he'd use this newfound dominance to do something truly spectacular. But in reality, he got lazy and over the course of the next ten years, frittered away absolutely everything of worth.

He's genuinely done so poorly with his business in the last ten years, we're looking at a Wrestlemania card filled with no-names, propped up by Attitude Era nostalgia and on the eve of such of a big show, what do they do? Claim they're not a wrestling promotion.

They are in full blown crisis, but spend so long with their heads in the sand, they don't even know it.

 

[neildittmar]

Whenever one revolutionizes something, there are bound to be aspects of that thing that are modified, broken or outright destroyed. What Vince McMahon did with professional wrestling was revolutionary without question or doubt. He brought what was essentially regarded as a low-brow carney act into the mainstream and marketed it to the general public, who then bought and bought in droves not once (Hulkamania), but twice (Austin/Rock/Attitude Era). To that end, Vince McMahon is a revolutionary in the pro-wrestling business, giving it an audience and standing that it didn't have before his grandiose vision was carried out to fruition.

As for the "modified" aspects, this is where it gets trickier. Pre-McMahon, pro-wrestling was always promoted as being "real", even though most people knew at least certain aspects of it were fake. Vince McMahons "version" of pro-wrestling (ie; sport entertainment) completely blurred that line and made any doubt of the "sport" itself being fake essentially disappear. It wasn't about the athleticism so much as it was about pagentry, theatrics, and spectacle... suspension of disbelief be damned. This has not changed over the years and if anything, has become more obvious.

The "destroyed" part is immediately evident to anyone who has done even a little bit of homework on the history of pro-wrestling. Territory systems and handshake deals with promoters ruled the day pre-McMahon. Circa WM1 and in the years following, McMahon effectively told the other promoters he didn't need them or their system. He was right and his version of pro-wrestling was utlimately successful and the territory system died a miserable death. More recently, McMahon effectively bought out his main competition (WCW) and acquired all the rights and properties to a semi-successful upstart (ECW) that could've been competition later if all the factors played out better. McMahon had effectively won again with his product and formula.

If you want to call McMahon a saviour, I suppose that's an appropriate title only insofar that he "saved" wrestling from it's humble, regional beginings and gave it an air of legitimacy as primarily an "entertainment product" that it didn't have before. He made it successful and marketable on a national, then global scale. The tactics he employed and the risks he took to accomplish this goal made him a revolutionary in the industry.

Of course, he destroyed many promotions, all of his immediate competition, and the very core of what pro-wrestling was in the process. So which side, the revolutionary or the destroyer, is more relevant? The answer to that question is completely based on the subjectiveness of the person answering it. That is, there is no clear-cut answer and is completely based on that individuals own context of the mentioned events (and others) that have transpired.