Vince's "Burial" Of Outside Talent

[Judah's Lion]

No sir, you brought up Archer first. And i commented on it. Nextly, you can have a million fueds with a belt if that belt isn't here any longer then it takes away from it no matter what. Also no matter what christian says, of course he's gonna say what is appropriate on screen or a wwe magazine but any fan with sense knows why he left. The question as to why he came back is the real mystery. More money i suppose.

a quick and simple review of this thread will show that you are, once again, incorrect.

Follower of Awesome brought up Archer first, you commented on that and then i commented on you. either way, it wasn't me that brought him up first.

i would disagree with your feelings about now defunct titles. i think that there were some amazing matches and feuds with the Cruiserweight Title. for example, early Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Kidman, Mysterio and Malenko. the fact that the belt currently does not exist does not make their matches and feuds or the prestige of that title mean any less. and these guys are a "who's who" of amazing wrestling in their primes.

same goes for even some Hardcore and European Title matches and feuds. great stuff to be found there. the fact that those belts were unified doesn't mean that those matches and feuds never happened. just means that those belts are gone.

maybe the same could be argued for the King of the Ring title. even though there is no annual or regular KOTR tournie anymore, does that make past winners and titles mean nothing? i think Bret Hart, Stone Cold and Triple H would disagree with you.

 

[WRESTLING_GENIUS]

I dont think Vince buried outside talent at all, he gave everyone that came in a chance. Since I was born in 1987 I missed Harley Race push, but i do remember being 4 yrs old and seeing two world champions on a segment called The Brother Love show, One champion was my hero Hulk Hogan and then out of nowhere some guy named Ric Flair came on the stage and had a bigger, golder, and shineyer, world title and he proclaimed to be the Real World Champion, well he went on to win that next year's Royal Rumble(which i still have on VHS when it came on)and won the WWF Tilte in doing so. Going back a year or so earliar, a guy in WCW named Mean Mark Calous(misspelled) was a midcard jobber in early 1990, but at the end of that year he became The Undertaker and a year after his debut He won the WWF Title from Hulk Hogan, othewr guys that came in and got pushes were, Diseal, Razor Ramon, Lex Luger, British Bulldog after he left for WCW and came back, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Chris Candido(R.I.P)(even tho it was just a tag team championship run) and most recently he gave Jeff Hardy 3 world championships after coming from TNA only to backstab them and go back, so to answer the question Vince doesnt bury outside talent, if anything He gives them all a chance to make themseleves into Stars and depending on how the WWE Universe responds to them, depends on the amount of success they have, The only superstar i see that is the exception to the rule for some silly ass reason is Christian, he's been back for now three years and is getting buried by Cody Rhodes and Drew McIntrye which isnt right at all......

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Vince'll push who Vince wants to push - to say that Race and Rhodes were not known is laughable, the territories were only just taken over by Vince and JCP and most fans of any age would know their NWA champions because it was their job to move around the NWA territories (incl WWWF). Hogan, Flair and SCSA have all been given the world strap when they've been in as bad if not worse physical condition than these two wrestlers.

The arguement that Vince is first and foremost a business man is valid, but when you look at things like the WBF, XFL, the World or WWe Films - all vanity projects... Vince doesn't always let his brain rule over his ego.

Pushing Flair and Goldberg were no brainers - both were that rare thing, wrestlers who were well known outside of wrestling fans. Lesser recognised former world champs like DDP, Booker, Race, Rhodes, Luger, Christian, Truth, Steiner, Rhino etcetra were all made to look like non main calibre.

Mid and lower mid carders from the competition were given a fresh start and pushed with creative tweaks (ex UT, SCSA, HHH etsetra). Punk might be basically Punk but it has taken time - he famously has been criticised for not being able to work and has been knocked down for public comments (as have MVP, Hardy and Carlito), but the massive heat he always generates has always eventually overcome these problems. Another way to get depushed to show outside interests (see Mickie and to an extent Y2J) because Vince demands complete dedication from his independent contractors.

No one can argue Vince's pedigree as the greatest wrestling promoter ever, but the character Mr McMahon is recognised as not being to far from the truth.

Sorry my friend but you are dead wrong here... in the late 80's Vince was not interested in the guys who would know who Harley Race or Dusty were... anyone he wanted from the territories he got before 87... The vast majority of WWF fans were kids who bought toys, ice cream bars and T-shirts... They wouldn't understand territories, that there was an NWA or AWA just that Hogan, Piper,Savage, Warrior, Andre and DiBiase et al were the big stars...

For a guy like Rhodes to come in so long after meant they had to decide right away what he was coming in as... Was he Hogan level in ability... easily 5 years prior, but now he was ageing, slower and in general popularity and appeal nowhere near... So they brought him in a level below, as someone who clearly was special , he got his own superhero comeback slot but not on the level of a Hogan or Warrior... He could be beaten... To help him integrate he was given a manager in Sapphire that kids would like and the "American Dream" moniker/Music/gimmick so parents could get behind him as being someone they and their kids could both be fans of...

NWA fans would not have approved, but it was the best he was ever gonna get at his age and in the WWF at that time... he took the money happily for a short run, won big matches against main eventers and helped his boy's career get started... fair treatment I'd say for someone Vince's dad never particularly cared for...

Race would even less have been known by the kids... their dads may have told them about his past but again when you are a kid and all you know is Hulk Hogan is THE champ, 7 NWA reigns before you were born, somewhere else that what you know doesn't instantly translate... Race had also not been especially cordial with Vince and Hogan during the expansions, even being alleged to have threatened to kill them if they ever ran in his town... only to come and ask for a job when they actually did... Harley was known for his killer rep and bluster and hair trigger temper but was still given a gimmick that reflected his greatness and elder statesman reputation... rather than the psycho or washed up has been gimmick he could have ended up with... he was the king till he couldn't carry that honor... The kids never liked him cos he was booked to be the horrid old guy who beat up their heroes... he was the evil headmaster of the WWF...again for Harley at the time, more than he could have dreamt of... Vince could easily have not used Harley or Rhodes at all and the WWF would not have suffered one bit... indeed some other talents might have got better pushed like Rude and Martel...

Both these guys had nailed their colours to the mast early by not being cordial with Vince Sr by mainly doing business with rivals... and that Vince Jr later did business at all was something in itself...but these men were legit former World Champs...

But you have to remember that World Championships then were a dime a dozen, the AWA had one, NWA had one, World Class had one... they were not ALL the same level as Hogan and his WWF belt in either popularity or calibre of draw. AWA World Champions were brought in as strong mid carders and in reality that was their level... Rick Martel and Curt Hennig were brought in strongly but at their appropriate level for the time...they grew well into the WWF system and got pushes... Sgt. Slaughter had the benefit of his previous run with the WWF and the Gulf crisis so he jumped the queue...

Some NWA World Champs were short term ones like Ronnie Garvin and Kerry Von Erich... no way should they have come in as main eventers... but both got strong mid card pushes out the gate, even though Garvin's was short lived... Steamboat was only a world champ after he was big in the WWF, so why push him straight to the main event on his return they knew he didn't need to be there to tear down the house... That Ricky didn't quite deliver is as much down to him as Vince...

As time went on the number of belts went down but the quality of former champ didn't go up... the ECW title was NEVER a legit world title... even most alumni admit that their TV title was more of a draw with RVD than any of their champs... to a man the ECW guys came in strong in mid card roles... many in the invasion... DDP and Booker T came in to title pushes but not the main one... the only time the WCW belt ever got to the similar levels as the WWF was 96-98... Goldberg, Hogan... whenever they came they got the main event... The only ECW guy who was ever "held down" was Shane Douglas... and that was cos of how he'd behaved in his previous run mainly...

Guys like Scott Steiner and Douglas, like I said before did it to themselves... Vince WANTED to push him in late 93/early 94... First a feud with Rick, then to a World title feud with Bret... but Scott didn't play ball... he wanted too much money and refused to fight his bro... so why would Vince give him a World title when someone else made (supposedly) money off that feud? He wouldn't... Shane chose to leave the WWF right when Vince was going to push him as The Heartbreak Kid, ostensibly cos his dad was dying... that he then signed straight up with WCW screwed him... of course Shawn was gonna bury the guy who was first choice for his gimmick at every opportunity... and why would Vince help him after letting him down?

Finally, I disagree that outside interests are bad... they just have to be good for WWE... The Rock's movie interest didn't hurt him... while it served WWE's purposes of course... likewise Piper in They Live, John Cena's Rap Album and yes Chris Jericho's outside interests... In the main Jericho's outside work has been great for WWE... people know Jericho from the singing show he did, from VH1 segments, the Benoit fallout...from Downfall, Fozzy and MacGruber... and all the time their first connection is Chris Jericho he's the WWE guy wow he can do x too...

Where problems arose this time around was more to do with the injury issues WWE had at the time rather than how Chris did anything... WWE allowed him to negotiate and to sign up to the show, then suddenly Taker and others got hurt or suddenly didn't resign (Batista)... So they would have preferred him not to do Downfall at that moment... but it worked out as they now have new main eventers they wouldn't have had otherwise... Mickie James, Maria, some others didn't do things the right way and were let go for it...

Remember though Vince learned a hell of a lesson the day his dad let Hogan walk cos he didn't want him to do Rocky III... who knows where that TV show/Movie role will lead to?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think that Vince McMahon gets a lot of unfair criticism when it comes to subjects like this. We've heard for years that Vince buries talent that the WWE isn't responsible for creating, but I honestly fail to see how true that is:

Ric Flair - Even prior to his first run in the WWF, Ric Flair was a legend. A multiple time NWA World Heavyweight Champion that spent the vast majority of the entire 1980s being the NWA World Champion. He held numerous other titles prior to that in the Mid-Atlantic area. Comes to the WWF, wins the Royal Rumble and has 2 runs as WWF Champion. Flair himself has said in interviews that his first run in the WWF was the greatest year and a half of his career. Over the course of Flair's second run in the WWE, he's had a couple of World Tag Team Championship reigns and 1 Intercontinental Championship reign despite being in his 50s when all they took place.

Chris Jericho - Gained his first big exposure in WCW and ECW. Former ECW World Television Champion, 4 time WCW Cruiserweight Champion and 1 time WCW World Television Champion. Comes to the WWF and becomes a 6 time World Champion, 9 time Intercontinental Champion, 4 time World Tag Team Champion and has headlined major ppvs.

Chris Benoit - As with Chris Jericho, his first big exposure came in WCW and ECW. He was a 1 time ECW World Tag Team Champion and had several brief title runs in WCW including a run as WCW World Heavyweight Champion, 3 time WCW World Television Champion, 2 time WCW United States Heavyweight Champion and 2 time WCW World Tag Team Champion plus being a member of the Four Horsemen. Benoit comes to WWF and becomes a 4 time World Tag Team Champion, 3 time United States Champion, 4 time Intercontinental Champion, winner of the Royal Rumble in 2004 and headlined WrestleMania the same year where he wins the World Heavyweight Championship.

Eddie Guerrero - First big breaks came in ECW and WCW. Eddie was a 2 time ECW World Television Champion, 2 time WCW Cruiserweight Champion, 1 time WCW United States Heavyweight Champion. Comes to the WWF, becomes a 2 time Intercontinental Champion, 1 time United States Champion, 4 time World Tag Team Champion and a 1 time WWE Champion, headlined major ppvs.

Rey Mysterio - Big star in Mexican promotions, came to WCW in the mid 90s. Won the WCW Cruiserweight Championship 5 times and was a 3 time WCW World Tag Team Champion. After he comes to the WWF, Mysterio becomes a 2 time Intercontinental Champion, a 4 time World Tag Team Champion, 3 time WWE Cruiserweight Champion, a ppv main eventer, a 2 time World Heavyweight Champion, Royal Rumble winner, etc.

CM Punk - CM Punk worked his way on the indy circuit for years, particularly becoming an "internet darling" in Ring Of Honor where he won the ROH World Championship and ROH Tag Team Championship 1 and 2 times respectively. Punk comes to the WWE aroud mid 2006 and in that time has become a ppv main eventer, 1 time ECW Champion, 3 time World Heavyweight Champion, 1 time World Tag Team Champion, 1 time Intercontinental Champion, 2 time consecutive winner of the MITB ladder match at WM.

I could go on and on about the number of wrestlers that've become known in other promotions that've gone on to become big stars in the WWE. Bryan Danielson has been brought up and he was made the overall center of the first season of NXT, he's placed in the main event at SummerSlam, he looks to be set firmly on course to become the next WWE United States Champion and all while being acknowledge as a major star on the indipendent scene.

At various times, we all have wrestlers that might be personal favorites and that we think should be pushed. And, if those favorites aren't pushed, we sometimes criticize the WWE for not knowing what it's doing and all this and that. You'll see so many threads pop up saying this guy should be pushed or this guy ought to be in this title scene against this guy and it's just not realistic. There aren't enough spots. Not everybody can or is going to be a huge, legendary star in the WWE. That's how it is in any major wrestling promotion. It was that way in WCW, it was that way in all the various NWA territories, and it's that way on the indy circuit.

Like everyone else, I do think that the WWE makes mistakes sometimes when it comes to pushes. I think Christian may well be the single most underrated guy in the WWE roster right now. Christian is a great professional wrestler and I'd love to see him get a major push. But, even if it doesn't happen, I can't come out and simply say that Vince isn't going to push him simply because he left, went to TNA and did well and is being buried after coming back. I do think it's a mistake, but I also accept the possibility that Vince might know something about Christian that I don't. Maybe Vince just doesn't have faith in him, in which case I do personally disagree but there's nothing I can do about it.

Just because Vince might not be pushing particular wrestlers you and I might think are deserving of more isn't remotely the same as burying them simply because he didn't make them first.