Vince's "Burial" Of Outside Talent

[The Brain]

For a long time now Vince McMahon has been accused of intentionally burying talent that came from other organizations, mainly NWA/WCW, before working in the WWF/E. This is something that has never made sense to me. Why would Vince bring someone into his company and put him on the payroll only to make him fail? I understand some say by burying wrestlers who were very successful with the competition just further demonstrates how dominant the WWF is. It’s a simple theory and makes sense to a point, but it hardly seems worth burying a big star to try to prove a meaningless point. The Yankees didn’t put Wade Boggs (I can use a 20 year old reference; it’s the old school section) on the bench to prove their superiority over the Red Sox. Since this doesn’t make any sense to me I got to thinking why did this always happen. Then it occurred to me that maybe it didn’t actually happen at all.

When I thought about it I came to realize outside talent actually did pretty well, or at least they were not buried like a lot of people think. I think this myth started way back in 1986 when Harley Race joined the WWF. A lot of people thought it was insulting to dress up a legend like Race in a crown and cape. The King character may not have been the tough and rugged Harley Race that won eight NWA titles, but there are some things to consider. First of all Race was well past his physical prime even before he joined the WWF. His age alone was going to prevent him from becoming a top guy. More importantly I don’t think putting the King gimmick on Race was meant to be a burial at all. In fact I think it was just the opposite. Race won a tournament to earn the crown. That seems a lot more like a push than a burial to me. The WWF has always been gimmicky compared to the NWA and putting the crown on Race was simply him acclimating to the WWF style. Race worked a program with Junkyard Dog, one of the most popular stars in the WWF, and got a clean pin on him at WrestleMania III. He went on to work programs with Jim Duggan and even Hulk Hogan. Race was never considered a push over and I think his place in the mid card was justified considering his age.

Dusty Rhodes is another example that is brought up. Dusty was in the WWF for about a year and a half and did pretty well while he was there. He didn’t win the world title like he did in the NWA, but that’s not unusual considering WWF booking in general at the time. From January 1984 until September 1992 there was only a combined four month period where the title was off either Hogan, Savage, or Warrior (with the exception of the two times the title was vacant). Seemingly Vince keeping the title on his own guys and burying outside talent go hand in hand. I don’t think that’s the case. Vince was keeping his proven draws on top as long as he could. There’s nothing wrong with that. Nowadays it seems like it’s an insult to be considered a mid card wrestler. That was not the case back then. The mid card was treated very well and the fans enjoyed the mid card matches very much. Dusty was in the upper mid card during his time in the WWF feuding with guys like Savage and Dibiase. People think Vince buried Dusty because he had him wear polka dots. I really don’t think such a minor thing should be considered a burial. Anyone who got a win over Savage at WrestleMania was not being buried.

There’s a long list of outside talent that did very well or at least were given the opportunity to do well in the WWF. Ric Flair, The Road Warriors, Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson, Big Bossman, Lex Luger, Curt Hennig, Kerry Von Eric, The Steiner Brothers, Sid, Steve Austin, and Mick Foley are some examples. Vader is one guy I would have liked to have seen do better in the WWF, but I don’t think his failure was due to being a WCW success. Vader was booked pretty strongly for his first nine to twelve months, but never recovered from a setback he had when he got in legal trouble in Kuwait.

So what do you think? Have you always subscribed to the theory that Vince intentionally buries outside talent? If so, have I changed your mind? If I haven’t changed your mind tell me where I’m wrong.

 

[alistahr]

Dusty is often considered to be a legend at the level of flair, sometimes even hogan (this one being a little bit too much), and a mid card lvl wasnt enough for him, regardless of what the mid card was back then, it was still MID card, he was a top superstar.
And look at today's stars, the only one with a pre wwe career getting a push is Alberto del rio (well deserved btw), Lo ki is being treated as a rookie, and so will Tyler Black, these arent rookies at all, to be honest, dusty is really the only talent from back then that wasnt given the push he deserved, during the 90s, stars went back and fort between wwf and wcw, keeping their star power, but now its gotten ridiculous, all these very experienced people are treated like they dont know what to do or how to act in front of a crowd

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Dusty was not underused... he feuded with DiBiase and Savage during his time in the WWE... 2 main event heels... The polka dot thing? You know Vince... likes his colourful characters... and it did help Dusty get over with the more kiddie era WWF fans... Dusty by then was not in a physical peak... his work had become "samey"... so he got the exact push he deserved, the big money run for little effort...

Harley Race was a wreck by the time he got to the WWF, that he got pushed as he did was out of respect... but again a lot of the WWF fans of the day would not have known who he was, much less his rep...

Vince often gets a bad deal for this, because the reality is until you do in the WWF/E now more than ever... you haven't done it... There is a grain of truth in the Cole/Bryan angle in that ROH IS the minor leauges compared to what there was as competition in the past... Someone like Lo Ki didn't do anything significant, but as Kaval he has won NXT... He's getting the push, Bryan is... Del Rio is... Punk did... but they have to earn it in the WWE and that is right...

With WCW talents, sometimes there have been cases where people could have been given "better" pushes... but these were often people who had issues with Vince in the past... Scott Steiner walked out in 1993 when Vince was ready to make him a singles superstar... so why would he push Big Poppa Pump massively later? Vader was given massive opportunities, the attack on Monsoon was huge as he was as close to untouchable as it came... but yep he blew it...

Vince doesn't bury outside talent, but he makes damn sure they are remoulded into WWE talents before they get pushed... that is right and fair in my book... Did Dustin Rhodes get buried? no... he got remoulded... so did Foley, Booker, Helms, Y2J, Benoit, Eddie... the list goes on...

 

[Brahma Bull]

i agree with the op. people always think of vince as this tyrannical guy who goes just off his emotions. bottom line is vince is a business man. whats good for money is good for him. he doesnt burry talent that he thinks will do well, but not every superstar that does well on one show will do well in the wwe. styles would not make it far in the wwe, and neither would joe yet in tna they are top dogs. every company has a different feel, and even if your great in one, you may not fit into another company too well.

 

[mayankeagle]

Vince is accused of a lot of crimes which he never did. Burial of outside talent is another one. Why would one bury such talent? Nobody would leave one company to join another if they would not get pushed there. For example, consider Chris Jericho. He was a mid-carder in the WCW but when the joined WWF, he directly started feuding with the Rock and entered the main-event scene. Also remember when Goldberg came to WWF and retired the Rock, later on feuded with Evolution/ HHH to win the championship belt.

And before we forget - 2 of the WWE's most celebrated and greatest stars of all time - the Undertaker and Stone Cold Steve Austin were mid-carders in the WCW. How many people remember the Undertaker as Mean Mark Callous? And people say that Vince didn't push talent which came to him from other companies. Yeah, right.

 

[Furyof5]

The whole "Vince buries other companies talents" is totally untrue and ignores too much to be considered a valid opinion. Lets examine the facts:

Ric Flair: Ric Flair was a wrestler whom became big well before he wrestled in WWF. He was a multiple time NWA champion and was huge everywhere he went. Was this huge wrestler burried? No. He won the vacant championship by winning the Royal Rumble. He didnt do it in a weak fashion either, he entered at number 3 and the match lasted a (at the time) record 60 minutes.

He went on to lose the title to Randy Savage at Wrestlemania, however he regained it once again. Later on The Ultimate Ric Flair Collection DVD, Flair described his first stint with the WWF as "the greatest year and a half of my career, outside the time I spent with Arn Anderson and The Four Horsemen."

Ric Flair would later return to the WWE and be apart of some huge story arcs such as being co-owner of the WWE after the Invasion arc, and being apart of one of the biggest factions since The Four Hoursemen; Evolution.

Until Ric Flair showed up in TNA he was regarded as the greatest wrester of all time by WWE, and they even gave him a heartfelt send-off on Raw the day after his great match with Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania.

Ric Flair was a wrestler that was most certainly not buried in WWF/E.

Hulk Hogan: Hulk Hogan was a wrestler that started out in smaller territories in 1977. He won his first title, the NWA Southeast Heavyweight Championship, in 1979.

Hogan wrestled his first stint in WWF as a heel in 1979 and was immediately booked to wrestle Bob Backlund for the WWF championship, he also feuded with Andre The Giant. This stint did not last long however and Hogan went on to wrestle elsewhere.

Hogan spent the next 3 years wrestling in New Japan Pro Wrestling and the American Wrestling Association. While in NJPW Hogan won the International Wrestling Grand Prix Heavyweight Championship and on June 2, 1983, Hogan became the first International Wrestling Grand Prix tournament winner by defeating Japanese wrestling icon Antonio Inoki by knockout in the finals of a the 10-man tournament which featured top wrestling talents from throughout the world.

Vince McMahon seeing how huge Hogan had become in these different organizations brought Hogan into WWF at this point. Hogan would then go on to win the WWF championship on January 23, 1984 and at the point was the first man to ever escape the Camel Clutch. Hogan went on to hold the title for 4 years and 13 days. During this time Hogan had a pay-per-view called "Wrestlemania" created with him as its focal point. Hogan main evented this event 8 years in a row, and multiple times after. Hogan also went on to beat Andre The Giant at Wrestlemania 3 in the main event. Andre was a world renowned wrestler with a 15 year undefeated streak.

Hogan, a wrestler whom first became big outside of WWF, became its greatest wrestler, and the biggest draw in the history of professional wrestling. Hogan had left at one point to go to WCW and almost run WWF out of business, but he eventually returned and once again won the WWF championship.

Hogan had a very storied history in the WWF/E and was in no way buried.

There are many stories of WWE pushing talent which became big in a previous company, and I just illustrated 2 of its biggest examples. Two men which were at the top in the federation regardless of previous championships or accolades.

The idea that Vince buries people from other federations because they were not "homegrown" or "created" by Vince is nothing more than a totally unfounded myth which is easily dispelled by looking at history, and should be seen as such.

 

[Davi323]

Dusty is often considered to be a legend at the level of flair, sometimes even hogan (this one being a little bit too much), and a mid card lvl wasnt enough for him, regardless of what the mid card was back then, it was still MID card, he was a top superstar.
And look at today's stars, the only one with a pre wwe career getting a push is Alberto del rio (well deserved btw), Lo ki is being treated as a rookie, and so will Tyler Black, these arent rookies at all, to be honest, dusty is really the only talent from back then that wasnt given the push he deserved, during the 90s, stars went back and fort between wwf and wcw, keeping their star power, but now its gotten ridiculous, all these very experienced people are treated like they dont know what to do or how to act in front of a crowd

There goes Alistahr with yet another completely uninformed post...

Nobody other than Del Rio getting a push? Are you fucking serious? Lets look at the main event scene for the past few years...Big Show? Multiple time Tag champ, former WCW main eventer and world champion. Rey Mysterio? World Heavyweight Champ, previous multiple time WCW Cruiserweight champ. Daniel Bryan Danielson? He gets put in the main event of Summerslam, made his bones in the indy circuit, and whose indy cult following is acknowledged by the WWE, instead of ignored. R-Truth is a huge fan favorite, who came over from TNA. CM Punk? Well, shit, didn't he become a minor legend in ROH and TNA too? And none of those guys underwent a major gimmick change. Big Show used to be the Giant, but he is still pretty much doing the exact same thing. Rey was Rey, Truth was Truth, Danielson was Danielson, Punk was Punk. It isn't like they completely repackaged any of those guys, like say from Terra Ryzing to Hunter Hearst Helmsley or from Mean Mark Callus to the Undertaker...the guys I mention are pretty much the same as when they worked elsewhere first.

Oh, I can see your reply..but Brian Danielson had to go to FCW and to NXT, he was being treated like a rookie!!!! To which, I respond: Brian Danielson ASKED to go to FCW instead of being sent to the main roster because he felt his ring skills had gotten a little rusty. The WWE didn't send him there, he chose to go there.

Brain nailed it...Vince McMahon only pushing WWE made stars is a complete myth that is EASILY proven wrong.

 

[TheBWO]

Well...here's my take on it. Take a mid-carder like Jericho (during WCW)....he moved to the WWE, and became a huge star, to which Vinnie Mac would then take credit for. "He was a nothing, and I made him a something" type of deal. Now, look at it from the other way---burying people like Goldberg , and other top guys in WCW during it's heyday----Vinnie does NOT want to hear behind the curtain "man...you should have signed this guy a long time ago". Mac doesn't deal with criticism, it's a known fact. It's his way or the highway, and to have someone under him undermine him by telling him that he missed the boat on this guy, or that guy, etc would pretty much mean "jobber status" for about a year (ask HHH about that with the "say goodbye" time with Nash, Hall, etc). Vince's ego is so huge that he wouldn't go raid someone else's talent....he would let the talent come to him....thinking, they need HIM, not him needing them. When the whole WCW merger happened, and ECW filing bankruptcy, he was stuck with some 40 more wrestlers on his roster, he wasn't about to let any one of them win one over the boys (ask Taz when he showed up with the ECW belt, and wrestled HHH for it. Arguably, Taz, in his heyday, would wrestler circles around Hunter). It would take some time for them to blend in, see the crowd reaction from a WWE standpoint, and then decide if they're gonna make it in HIS company. Bottom line....yes....Vinnie buried talent to alot of the exent. He wasn't going to let someone from another company, only because they were bought out, or went under, just pin one his guys. Why do you think alot of the top talent in WCW were starting out wrestling some of the mid-carders in WWE?

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

When trying to win in the ratings and gain territories, no of course he's not going to bury anyone. But when it's Vince and only Vince he doesn't necessarily bury talent, but he certainly doesn't use them to the extent he could do.

Look at Christian. Here's a guy that they were actually giving ME pushes to just prior to his contract expiration, so they know what he's capable of. He then decides to try other options and goes to TNA, where they use him to the best of their ability, making a star out of him more or less.

Few years later Christian comes back, becomes the ECW champion (equivalent of World Superstars Championship) almost immediately, and after ECW dissolves, moves on to doing...... oh yeah, NOTHING! Guys like Swagger with no ME experience are getting title reigns in the blink of an eye. But Christian, a guy who's had great matches with Jericho, Edge, Cena etc, is tagging with Matt Hardy and getting beaten up by Cody 'Aren't my legs smoothe?' Rhodes and Drew 'Help, my wife's gone skitzo' McIntyre.

R-Truth as you say Brain, is loved by audiences, but isn't doing anything. He's JoMo's tag partner for when JoMo HAS tag matches and that's all they use him for right now.

Do they bury outside talent? As in give them a truly unworkable gimmick and have them job 9 out 10 matches? No, they don't. But they don't use them in the same means as say Kofi Kingston or Sheamus who've seemingly come from nowhere and been pushed very hard. OK, Kofi's been there a while now, but he's held every belt but the World title, and where'd he come from? Wasn't he an FCW guy or something?

They'll push the Indy guys because they think no 'real' people watch the Indy circuit. No one's heard of these accolades so why would they expect anything amazing from you? So for that, we won't give you anything amazing to do either.

Ok Bryan was in the Summerslam ME. Hasn't Miz shit on him every week since? I haven't watched Raw lately, but has Bryan actually won a match since Summerslam?

So no, i don't think Vince buries anyone. But i don't think he uses all the mid-card to their full potential. If he did, Matt Hardy probably wouldn't have let himself get lazy and fat. He's probably gotten that way because he thinks 'there's no point pushing myself, because Vince won't push me regardless'. Totally the wrong attitude to have, but probably accurate. Then again, Vince probably won't push him for being shit and lazy for so damn long in the first place.

 

[Judah's Lion]

i'm gonna have to go with the OP and several others that already posted. the idea that Vince buries outside talent just because it's not HIS talent is just not supported by the evidence.

Vince sees money. it's not black or white with Vince. it's green. all green.

has Vince made mistakes with some outside guys? absolutely. have some outside guys had to work like dogs for years before making it huge in the WWE? absolutely.

but neither of those statements translates to Vince burying outside talent just because. we're all human and so we all make mistakes.

i love what someone else already stated: just because someone is huge in another company does not mean that they can make it in the WWE. some guys just don't get the crowd reaction that you'd hope for or expect. so a big name from the outside may not be WWE's next main event not based upon Vince's intentional burying, but the fan's reaction.

the facts and long history of evidence just don't support the asinine idea that Vince intentionally buries outside talent just because of his ego.

you know what's bigger than Vince's ego? his wallet! and that's because he's not a moron enough to bury guaranteed money, even if it comes from the outside.

 

[drobs85]

I AGREE WITH MOST. Why sign a guy to bury them. If you have that much dislike/ hatred why would you take the time to recruit and pay this person. It's absolutely stupid. I don't want to hear about wwe's dominance, hell they probably were dominant regardless. Some people talk about flair and hogan, booker t. Those are only a handful of outside talent, and even them at some point in their career were buried. So it's just stupid.

 

[Boondocks]

So most of the posters here have come to the agreement that Vince hasn't actually buried stars from outside promotions. I agree with this, you have many of the legends that previous posters have stated. Then there's Christian who when he came (return) to WWE, we could've said he's go nowhere. But he was the longest reigning ECWWE Champion, which is the equivelant of a mid-card title. He is in the mid-cards of Smackdown now. Don't you think he would be a jobber if Vince buried him? But he isn't, he's mid-carding, which is better than nothing. Vance Archer is a pretty good example, too. He's in a half-ways relevant tag team right now. He was in a half-ways relevant team in TNA. He was Lance Rock of The Rock 'n Rave Infection. He's not bad on the WWE's rankings when it comes to tag teams. So no, Vince doesn't bury outside talents at all.

 

[Midnite Express 2009]

I was one who selflessly reserved the thought process that Vince McMahon buried talent based upon what I saw growing up watching more of WTBS than the USA Network's wrestling programs and being able to follow certain stars from 1983-84 on.

I felt he buried talent that came from Jim Crockett Promotions and later Turner's company mainly because of the fact that those stars always had to play second fiddle to Hulk Hogan and just a few others. But then I thought, who were those few others? They were mostly ALL of Jim Crockett's old stars with a handful of Fritz Von Eric's charges, some guys from Bill Watts' territory and Mid-South. Sure, the expansion in the mid-to-late 1980s came from the NWA mostly, but those ex-NWA stars made a pretty good name for themselves without having to be WWF Champion.

Roddy Piper: Case of Piper. Roddy never once held the WWF title and quite arguably was the most over guy not named Hulk Hogan. How in the world could anyone ever say he was buried (and I'm sure some people do due to the fact that he never won the world title) when the man was the main focus and reason why we have a WrestleMania today! No one came to see Hulk Hogan, they came to see Hulk Hogan beat up Roddy Piper. Piper SHOULD have been WWF Champion going into WrestleMania and yes it should have been a singles match instead a tag, but I suppose that's neither here nor there. The point I am making is that it doesn't take winning the title to avoid being buried.

Greg Valentine: The Hammer is another person some people would regard as "buried" due mainly to that horrible tag team with The Honky Tonk Man. What people fail to realize is that he was an accomplished Intercontinetal Champion AND he battled some of the toughest men in the sport in either federation at the time. While Valentine later was seen as nothing but a shell of his former self (both in the WWF and during his return to WCW), his early WWF body of work was amazing especially his bouts with Tito Santana. Valentine never won a World Title like Piper (whom he fought at the first Starrcade), but that doesn't mean he got buried.

Now onto some men who people may believe got buried and the reasons why those people are totally wrong.

Buff Bagwell: "Buff The Stuff" was NOT stuffed despite what other people say when he arrived at the WWF's doorstep in 2001. I believe personally that if Vince had gotten a chance to grab someone by the name of Sting, that half those guys who came over during the Invaison wouldn't have come. Simply put, Bagwell didn't produce in the WWE nor did he produce, in my opinion when he was in WCW. Being guy #14 on a list of guys that counts up to 20 and featuring men such as Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Hulk Hogan & Curt Henning, to name a few, does not make you a star. Buff Bagwell was a bust from the word go and for Vince to have spent his money on him yet Buff not pan out was not and will never be a sign that Vince buried him, but more so Vince just putting money into someone who didn't pan out. Same goes for Dimond Dallas Page. Page was the recipient of Eric Bischoff and his personal friendship and that's why he became WCW World Champion. While I always found him entertaining, especially during his feud with Randy Savage, which ironically is what started his road to bing a legit singles star, Page was never taken seriously in my eyes and I'm sure many people felt that way as he went to the WWE. While Page did at least appear at WrestleMania (again, a sign that he was not buried), he didn't fulfill whatever Vince thought he was getting from Page and therefore he was released.

Booker T. & Bill Goldberg were two others who people felt were buried, however not by Vince persay but by HHH. Look, both Booker & Goldberg were great stars in WCW, no question about it, however they both became World Champions AND appeared at WrestleMania's during their time in the WWE. On top of it, they both were featured in high profile programs with HHH. HHH at the time was on top and in some ways was probably trying to protect his spot, but he also probably figured that he was all the WWE had at the time and if Booker & Goldberg left (which they both eventually did), he'd still be there so he needed to make sure the fans didn't leave WITH Goldberg and Booker T. That's not burying them, that's being a smart business man, understanding postions and what the fans will ultimately do if given the chance. Most fans don't even remember Bill Goldberg's feud with HHH, his title run or even his feud with The Rock. But they do know HHH. Case closed...

Vince doesn't bury men. Most of the guys who were NOT Vince's invention during the expansion period of the 1980s became stars AND champions in some fashion or another. If anyone buries wrestlers it's the fans because the fans are the ones who normally guage if a star is really a star, a mid-card or an all around bust. If a fan wants a guy pushed, he'll be pushed (sometimes that is), if not...well, he's buried. Stop blamming Vince. He's obviously doing something right, we're still watching.

 

[drobs85]

So most of the posters here have come to the agreement that Vince hasn't actually buried stars from outside promotions. I agree with this, you have many of the legends that previous posters have stated. Then there's Christian who when he came (return) to WWE, we could've said he's go nowhere. But he was the longest reigning ECWWE Champion, which is the equivelant of a mid-card title. He is in the mid-cards of Smackdown now. Don't you think he would be a jobber if Vince buried him? But he isn't, he's mid-carding, which is better than nothing. Vance Archer is a pretty good example, too. He's in a half-ways relevant tag team right now. He was in a half-ways relevant team in TNA. He was Lance Rock of The Rock 'n Rave Infection. He's not bad on the WWE's rankings when it comes to tag teams. So no, Vince doesn't bury outside talents at all.

Disagree, hardly no one in WWE even knows who the hell Vance archer is. Nextly christian is a terrible example. Had he not left he'd have 11 years in WWE but he still has a respectable 8 though, and all he has far as a title reigns was the damn watered down ecw title, seriously dude. Has not broke into the main event scene once but has the whole crowd behind him. Everyone always talk about this wrestler or that wrestler couldn't connect with the crowd, well that certainly ain't christians problem. So i guess that's not a burial.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Goldberg was buried by his poor attitude to the business and the locker room in general rather than Vince. He came in with the hype, was given the opportunity yet couldn't deal with the WWE way of doing things, he picked on the wrong guy in Jericho and the rest is history... One thing Vince does expect of guys he pushes is they are "about" WWE... guys like Jericho and Show have succeeded cos they embraced it early, ran with opportunites and even when they have blips, they sort themselves out and come back refreshed... Guys like Booker came in expecting to be treated equally based on where they were in WCW... It took Booker a lot longer to get with the WWE mentality, hence longer to get the push... To a man all of the guys who have failed have come in with ego, chips on their shoulders or failed to deliver.

Christian is an interesting case, everyone says "he is main event material"... I disagree... he has one money feud for a title in him in today's WWE... that is against Edge after a reunion/split... he is a modern day Piper or Jake Roberts... great on the stick, fans will always love them... but not gonna be the top guy... much is made of Vince's apparent dislike of Christian... it sounds to me like he just sees that...

 

[FreezeIzGAWD]

U know this is a funny topic... U do realize that Stone Cold "STUNNING" Steve Austin. Mean Mark UNDERTAKER, Big Daddy VEGAS, And The Razor Studd were all from other organizations right! Mr Perfect and the TEXAS TORNADO all from other organizations... Hey that Shawn Micheals guy was from AWA, Triple TERRA RIZING H, was from another organization, Cactus MANKIND Jack, Double J Jeff Jarrett, Arn and Tully, Ric Flair, The Road Warriors, Ravishing Rick Rude, the Ultimate Warrior, were all from different organizations! Even the Steiner Brothers and the Nasty Boys were all from other organizations, HARLET RACE was like 60 at the time he went to the WWF and that was during their Muscle Bound charisma run... NO ONE GOT A PUSH THEN. That is why the IC belt was so important at the time. I remember VINCE promised NIKITA KOLOFF the IC belt if he went to the WWF in his heyday! Let's just say this...

If VINCE and the E sees they can make U a money making star then U will get your push.. If not then its BURIAL TIME!!!

 

[Judah's Lion]

Disagree, hardly no one in WWE even knows who the hell Vance archer is. Nextly christian is a terrible example. Had he not left he'd have 11 years in WWE but he still has a respectable 8 though, and all he has far as a title reigns was the damn watered down ecw title, seriously dude. Has not broke into the main event scene once but has the whole crowd behind him. Everyone always talk about this wrestler or that wrestler couldn't connect with the crowd, well that certainly ain't christians problem. So i guess that's not a burial.

Vance Archer... isn't that the guy that's in a tag team with Curt Hawkins called the Gate Keepers? aren't they working on Smackdown and didn't they just have a gimmick where they were trying to make an impact (no pun intended) within a 30 day time frame? but you're right... nobody's ever heard of him.

Christian has only held the WWECW Title...? so the multiple IC Title reigns, including the first reign after the previously dissolved belt was reinstated, don't count? what about his European Title reign? doesn't count? what about his 10+ Tag Title reigns with multiple partners in Edge, Jericho and Lance Storm? none of those count? what about his Hardcore Title reigns? well, yeah, those might not count. what about when he won the Light Heavyweight Title in his WWE debut match? did that not count? seriously, dude. this guy has won EVERY TITLE in the WWE with the exception of the WHC. so don't say that he hasn't won anything, cuz that's just plain stupid.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Vince'll push who Vince wants to push - to say that Race and Rhodes were not known is laughable, the territories were only just taken over by Vince and JCP and most fans of any age would know their NWA champions because it was their job to move around the NWA territories (incl WWWF). Hogan, Flair and SCSA have all been given the world strap when they've been in as bad if not worse physical condition than these two wrestlers.

The arguement that Vince is first and foremost a business man is valid, but when you look at things like the WBF, XFL, the World or WWe Films - all vanity projects... Vince doesn't always let his brain rule over his ego.

Pushing Flair and Goldberg were no brainers - both were that rare thing, wrestlers who were well known outside of wrestling fans. Lesser recognised former world champs like DDP, Booker, Race, Rhodes, Luger, Christian, Truth, Steiner, Rhino etcetra were all made to look like non main calibre.

Mid and lower mid carders from the competition were given a fresh start and pushed with creative tweaks (ex UT, SCSA, HHH etsetra). Punk might be basically Punk but it has taken time - he famously has been criticised for not being able to work and has been knocked down for public comments (as have MVP, Hardy and Carlito), but the massive heat he always generates has always eventually overcome these problems. Another way to get depushed to show outside interests (see Mickie and to an extent Y2J) because Vince demands complete dedication from his independent contractors.

No one can argue Vince's pedigree as the greatest wrestling promoter ever, but the character Mr McMahon is recognised as not being to far from the truth.

 

[red ass skull muhfukkah]

While Page did at least appear at WrestleMania (again, a sign that he was not buried), he didn't fulfill whatever Vince thought he was getting from Page and therefore he was released

To add to your point, Page wasn't released, he was forced to "retire" because he legit destroyed his neck in a match with Bob Holly. Which gives reason to believe he could have gotten another push later on. Plus he was already in his late 30's early 40's (can't remember his exact age) at that point, granted he entered wrestling at an older age but still.

Everyone has already said Vince only cares about money. He has his personal grudges and dislikes, but he doesn't let them get in the way of making money. Look at Hogan in the early 2000's.

He only gives significant pushes to those who he and his staff feel can make most the money and draw. Not because he's trying to bury outside competitors.

As for Christian. He is not WWE main event material at the moment, at least not WHC or WWE Champion material. He may have been the biggest name in TNA but thats a whole different monster. He's alright in the ring and ok on the stick. He does get a decent reaction from the fans but so does the Great Khali. He lacks that one thing that makes him "special" which he has yet to show. He's in the mid-card (which isn't a bad place) because they're are other guys who are more main event and WHC material. It's not because he was in TNA, it's because he lacks star power and the ability to make a believable and drawing WHC when you have guys like Kane, Taker, Punk and Show on the same program. And guys like Cena, Orton, and Jericho on the other.

 

[Davi323]

Ok Bryan was in the Summerslam ME. Hasn't Miz shit on him every week since? I haven't watched Raw lately, but has Bryan actually won a match since Summerslam?

Has he lost cleanly to anyone, without any outside interference?

Obviously they are building up to DB taking the US title from Miz so Miz can cash in MITB. DB is in the middle of a push, its just early enough where you don't get what is happening.

 

[drobs85]

Vance Archer... isn't that the guy that's in a tag team with Curt Hawkins called the Gate Keepers? aren't they working on Smackdown and didn't they just have a gimmick where they were trying to make an impact (no pun intended) within a 30 day time frame? but you're right... nobody's ever heard of him.

Christian has only held the WWECW Title...? so the multiple IC Title reigns, including the first reign after the previously dissolved belt was reinstated, don't count? what about his European Title reign? doesn't count? what about his 10+ Tag Title reigns with multiple partners in Edge, Jericho and Lance Storm? none of those count? what about his Hardcore Title reigns? well, yeah, those might not count. what about when he won the Light Heavyweight Title in his WWE debut match? did that not count? seriously, dude. this guy has won EVERY TITLE in the WWE with the exception of the WHC. so don't say that he hasn't won anything, cuz that's just plain stupid.

U only know that about Vance archer because you have been following him for this short amount of time he's been here, hell if i watched every Smackdown or every archer match, i'd know that weak fued and storyline myself. But i guarantee you if you polled most of the wwe, and you said " how about that Vance archer match" they'd say "who"! Christian's title reigns. Light heavyweight, hardcore, ECW, and European belt. All four of those meaningless belts aren't even in existence anymore. Shows how important they are since you seem to think otherwise. And the damn intercontinental former prestigious belt is even a joke now dude. So i guess it depends on how you look at it, non important vs important. Those belts are long gone so they didn't mean squat. You have wrestlers who have no business near a top title then you have one who should in christian and hasn't, So indeed he has been buried.

 

[Judah's Lion]

U only know that about Vance archer because you have been following him for this short amount of time he's been here, hell if i watched every Smackdown or every archer match, i'd know that weak fued and storyline myself. But i guarantee you if you polled most of the wwe, and you said " how about that Vance archer match" they'd say "who"! Christian's title reigns. Light heavyweight, hardcore, ECW, and European belt. All four of those meaningless belts aren't even in existence anymore. Shows how important they are since you seem to think otherwise. And the damn intercontinental former prestigious belt is even a joke now dude. So i guess it depends on how you look at it, non important vs important. Those belts are long gone so they didn't mean squat. You have wrestlers who have no business near a top title then you have one who should in christian and hasn't, So indeed he has been buried.

most of the other posters on this thread are using examples like Vader, Flair, Rhodes, Hogan, Race, etc... guys that were big names outside of the WWE and then came to the WWE and were not buried. and there have been several other names thrown around also that are along these same lines.

your bringing up of Vance Archer is to imply that this guy is getting buried inside the WWE despite the fact that he was a big name on the outside. so to that point, i challenge anyone reading this post to name ONE SINGLE memorable match, feud or moment that Archer ever had outside of the WWE. anyone remember that incredible Lance Hoyt feud with... or that one time that Lance Hoyt did that... or the match Lance Hoyt had with... that's right. not much to talk about outside of the WWE. so now, WWE is not only not burying him, they're building him into a tag team with a former tag champion in an attempt to run for the gold.

you almost had a decent point about Christian's prior title reigns. true, those belts have all been unified now. you know, as opposed to having like 13 belts for one company (2 Cruiserweight/Light Heavyweight Titles, 1 European Title, 1 Hardcore Title, 2 Tag Titles, 2 WHC Titles, 1 IC Title, I US Title, 2 Women's/Divas Titles, 1 ECW Title... they needed to be unified!). however, lest we forget, all of these belts used to mean something. in fact, all had pretty decent matches and feuds and all of them were defended at Wrestlemania. in fact, some of these matches where the belts were won and lost involved Christian. so to say that they were meaningless then is not accurate. they were. the fact that they were unified does not make his reigns with those titles mean any less.

and lest we also forget, Christian chose to leave TNA because, in his own words, he didn't want to be the big fish in a small pond. so now he's climbing his way back up the ranks. that's to be expected.

 

[Jedbo75]

I don't know that Vince buries these guys, but he intentionally makes them look weaker than home-grown talent. It's just a fact and it dates back years. That being siad, Vince will put them over and even push them hard IF they have been re-packaged and branded as his "creations". Dusty in polka-dots...Kerry as the Texas Tornado...the list goes on and on. No one was more of a mark for WWF/WWE than Vince and the one really good example is the 2001 invasion angle. WCW vs. WWE could have and would have been the single biggest angle in the history of the industry. By booking the invaders as serious threats and using the big names instead of Polumbo and Mike Awesome, the apocolyptic wrestling storyline that fans had waited years for could have materialized and made everyone involved wildly rich(even more so). Alas, as stated before, Vince is a mark. He believes in his own gimmick. He buried the competition and made another HUGE business mistake, that in my mind surpasses the XFL and the WBO, in that it could have actually worked! It was almost impossible to f@ck up! Still, leave it to Vince. He lives in a bubble. He has been out of touch for years and has gotten more credit than he deserves for th attitude era and not nearly enough derision for the lack of quality programing since, oh, 1998-99. I can't quit watching. I'm a lif-long wrestling junkie. But the "stuff" I'm getting my fixes on now is weak and leaves me pining for the good old days. I owe a ton of thanks to Vince for entertaining me for years, but I have bones to pick. This burying of "outsiders" at the viewer's peril has always been a major one.

 

[VinnieSunshine]

Vince and the WWE are not buring guys from other organizations...its the fans. When Chris Harris came in from WWE, they put him in FCW to get the ring rust off. When he came up, if you didn't watch TNA you didn't know who he was. So maybe he was pushed right, but the fans never bought what he was selling. Take for example R-Truth. when he was K-Quik he was not over with the fans. He goes to TNA and they build him up, comes back to WWE and BAM instant star.

If you pay ANY attention to NXT you will see the WWE is not keeping other outside talent down. Look how hard Bryan Danielson was pushed during that season and the mentions of him being an "internet darling" to quote Cole. Look at where he's now. Do you really believe for one second that the fans pick the NXT winner? WWE knows what Kaval has...fan following. If he was some nobody, he wouldn't have won, hell he probably wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.

WWE and Vince don't bury outside talent...its the fans. Maybe other WWE talents bend Vince's ear a bit, or some stars can't figure out their character, but we as fans make or break them. Of course some guys from WCW got the raw end of the deal because of who they were put into a fued with. Triple H was a HOT face during that time, put him up against a heel Steiner and who wins? What about DDP being a "stalker" against the Undertaker...who won that with the fans?

Its not just outside talent, its guys that came p in the WWE. Take for example MNM. Melina was HOT and could wrestle, Morrison grew over time, but what about Mercury? Or London and Kendrick...Kendrick was the more popular one, same with Jeff Hardy and the Hardy Boyz. These are guys that just couldn't get over enough with the fans for us to care about them. Some guys just aren't meant to be top players.

 

[drobs85]

most of the other posters on this thread are using examples like Vader, Flair, Rhodes, Hogan, Race, etc... guys that were big names outside of the WWE and then came to the WWE and were not buried. and there have been several other names thrown around also that are along these same lines.

your bringing up of Vance Archer is to imply that this guy is getting buried inside the WWE despite the fact that he was a big name on the outside. so to that point, i challenge anyone reading this post to name ONE SINGLE memorable match, feud or moment that Archer ever had outside of the WWE. anyone remember that incredible Lance Hoyt feud with... or that one time that Lance Hoyt did that... or the match Lance Hoyt had with... that's right. not much to talk about outside of the WWE. so now, WWE is not only not burying him, they're building him into a tag team with a former tag champion in an attempt to run for the gold.

you almost had a decent point about Christian's prior title reigns. true, those belts have all been unified now. you know, as opposed to having like 13 belts for one company (2 Cruiserweight/Light Heavyweight Titles, 1 European Title, 1 Hardcore Title, 2 Tag Titles, 2 WHC Titles, 1 IC Title, I US Title, 2 Women's/Divas Titles, 1 ECW Title... they needed to be unified!). however, lest we forget, all of these belts used to mean something. in fact, all had pretty decent matches and feuds and all of them were defended at Wrestlemania. in fact, some of these matches where the belts were won and lost involved Christian. so to say that they were meaningless then is not accurate. they were. the fact that they were unified does not make his reigns with those titles mean any less.

and lest we also forget, Christian chose to leave TNA because, in his own words, he didn't want to be the big fish in a small pond. so now he's climbing his way back up the ranks. that's to be expected.

No sir, you brought up Archer first. And i commented on it. Nextly, you can have a million fueds with a belt if that belt isn't here any longer then it takes away from it no matter what. Also no matter what christian says, of course he's gonna say what is appropriate on screen or a wwe magazine but any fan with sense knows why he left. The question as to why he came back is the real mystery. More money i suppose.