Tyrone Willingham is fired...where is all the Black Power now?

[Slyfox696]

A few years back, when Tyrone Willingham was in the midst of a 4 win season, bringing in a recruiting class ranked in the 50s, Notre Dame fired his sorry butt for being completely inept as a coach. As a result, every black newscaster in the nation scorned Notre Dame for the dismissal of Willingham, not because he wasn't getting the job done (because he wasn't), but because he was black, and because he got fired in 3 years and was black, obviously it was racially motivated. Never mind the fact that Notre Dame had HIRED Willingham in the first place, the only reason they fired him was because he was black. Just ignore how bad the program was, how he couldn't recruit, how he had less than 6 OL for the year after...he got fired because he was black.

Now, after starting 0-7, Willingham was FORCED to resign at Washington. The man proved himself to be just as inept at Washington as he was at Notre Dame, and proved he cannot coach an elite college football program.

My question is, where are all the black power supporters now? Where is John Saunders, who was blasting Notre Dame up and down for their dismissal? Where is Jesse Jackson? They're nowhere to be found. Why? Because they were made to look like idiots (which, in Jackson's case, isn't really that new).

They harassed Notre Dame for years about their dismissal of Willingham, even doing the same last year when, with what would have been Willingham's upper classmen, Notre Dame had a poor season. Where is their public apology? Where are they to say "Hey, Notre Dame, you made the right decision"? The answer is no where to be found.

Use this thread to express outrage at the lengths the media will go to serve their own agenda, without ever expressing how wrong they usually seem to be. Or, use it to discuss the fact that Ty Willingham sucks as a college football coach, and people were idiots to turn a reasonable firing into a racial thing.

 

[brahma62]

That's pretty much how it will always be. I remember this past year, when Nebraska was looking for their next coach, alot of people were kind of pissed that Nebraska picked Bo Pelini over Turner Gill. I don't understand why, both were great candidates for the job but Nebraska just felt that Pelini was the better man for the job.

Willingham started out great last year if i recall, 4-0, but let it all fall apart at the end, so it shows that he just isn't getting the job done. The racist card may start up again for him being fired if it hasn't already, but they need to get over it. He isn't getting the job done, it's the job. He can always go be a coordinator somewhere and in a couple of years who knows maybe he can gain some head coaching knowledge and be a great head coach, but right now everyone needs to drop the race card because its really stale.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

That's the problem when you do hire a black head coach and that is that it makes it so difficult to fire them because if you do you are instantly thought of as being a racist. I remember when Bobby Williams coached my old school Michigan State several years back. He was a black coach and he was terrible and everybody wanted him gone so when we finally let him go all the beat writers and columnists around here talked about it being a race thing which obviously it wasnt. He just sucked. But I did hear a stat the other day on ESPN that I did find mind boggling. I dont know the exact number but Im wanting to say they said of the last 198 college head coaching openings only 8 or 9 have gone to black head coaches. Thats insane. Now I dont know if race has anything to do with that or not but it is pretty weird. Every other sport(besides hockey of course) has a fairly decent amount of black head coaches. Obviously not as much as whites but its a fairly respectable amount but college football hardly has any especially now that Willingham and that one Prince guy were fired. Sometimes it does make you think why there are so few of them in college. I believe there are more black head coaches in the NFL then there is in D1 and there's a helluva lot more schools then NFL teams.

 

[Slyfox696]

But I did hear a stat the other day on ESPN that I did find mind boggling. I dont know the exact number but Im wanting to say they said of the last 198 college head coaching openings only 8 or 9 have gone to black head coaches. Thats insane. Now I dont know if race has anything to do with that or not but it is pretty weird. Every other sport(besides hockey of course) has a fairly decent amount of black head coaches. Obviously not as much as whites but its a fairly respectable amount but college football hardly has any especially now that Willingham and that one Prince guy were fired. Sometimes it does make you think why there are so few of them in college. I believe there are more black head coaches in the NFL then there is in D1 and there's a helluva lot more schools then NFL teams.

But, how many black coaches have been successful? One? Tony Dungy? Who else?

While there are a ton of unsuccessful white coaches as well, there have been very few black coaches successful in, not just football, but also in any sport.

At some point, if blacks wanted to be named as leaders to teams, some of them are going to have to prove themselves worthy of it.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

But, how many black coaches have been successful? One? Tony Dungy? Who else?

While there are a ton of unsuccessful white coaches as well, there have been very few black coaches successful in, not just football, but also in any sport.

At some point, if blacks wanted to be named as leaders to teams, some of them are going to have to prove themselves worthy of it.

Yeah I definitely agree good ones have been few and far between but its odd how you see a fairly good amount of them in other sports(relatively speaking) but hardly any in college football. I will say though that Willingham got a raw deal with ND atleast if you compare it to what Weiss did. Willingham came in and had a great season his first season and they didnt give him any extension or nothing. Weiss comes in and has a great season with Willingham's players I might add and they give Charlie this huge extension. Since then he has had a bunch of disappointing seasons including blowout losses in bowl games and nothing happens to him yet they fired Willingham for it? Now dont get me wrong Im not so much as saying that Ty deserved to keep his job but why did he really get no chance to turn it around yet Weiss gets an extension for basically doing the same thing?

 

[Big Sexy]

But, how many black coaches have been successful? One? Tony Dungy? Who else?

NFL- Dungy, Mike Tomlin, Lovie Smith

NBA- Lenny Wilkens, Doc Rivers, Maurice Cheeks, Byron Scott, Bill Russel, KC Jones, Al Attles

MLB- Frank Robinson, Dusty Baker

College Football- Sylvester Croom, Turner Gill

College Basketball- Paul Hewitt, John Thompson, John Thompson Jr,

That's just off the top of my head so there's probably more.

And as far as Willingham goes he had 21 wins in 3 seasons. Weiss had 22 in his first 3 and he gets a 10 year extension. And Weiss's two best seasons came in his first 2 years with all of Willingham's recruits, so saying Willingham couldn't recruit is bs. Weis hasn't done anyhing with his own recruits.

 

[Slyfox696]

NFL- Dungy, Mike Tomlin, Lovie Smith

Dungy has won a Super Bowl. Who are the other two? The guy Dungy beat? The guy who took over the most stable franchise in the NFL, reaping the benefits from one of the greatest coaches in history?

NBA- Lenny Wilkens, Doc Rivers, Maurice Cheeks, Byron Scott, Bill Russel, KC Jones, Al Attles

You have mixed in some good coaches and bad coaches.

MLB- Frank Robinson, Dusty Baker

This is a joke right? I said SUCCESSFUL.

College Football- Sylvester Croom, Turner Gill

Now you HAVE to be kidding me.

College Basketball- Paul Hewitt, John Thompson, John Thompson Jr,

You mean John Thompson from '85 Georgetown, right? He's the only one worth a damn in your list.

That's just off the top of my head so there's probably more.

And as far as Willingham goes he had 21 wins in 3 seasons. Weiss had 22 in his first 3 and he gets a 10 year extension. And Weiss's two best seasons came in his first 2 years with all of Willingham's recruits, so saying Willingham couldn't recruit is bs. Weis hasn't done anyhing with his own recruits.

No, what's BS is you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

First of all, if those were Willingham's recruits, how come he couldn't win with them? How come Weiss came in and did far better than Willingham did?

Second of all, Willingham had 10 wins in his first year...with Bob Davie's kids, not his own. So, of his 21 wins, 11 came with ANY influence of his own on the program.

Third of all, last year was Ty Willingham's kids as well. Those are the kids that Willingham recruited. Notice how they sucked? Yeah, that's why he got fired.

Fourth of all, Notre Dame had NO Offensive Lineman when Weiss got there. Like, there were 6. I don't even know how Willingham expected to snap the ball.

Fifth of all, all of Notre Dame's skill players last year and this year are Weiss's recruits...and they are all under classmen. Why? Because the upper classmen that Willingham recruited sucked ass.

Sixth of all, The Program had ONE down year, after two straight BCS bids, and is now rebounding...thanks to Charlie Weiss's recruits.

Seventh of all, Willingham was bringing in recruiting classes ranked IN THE FIFTIES!! THE FIFTIES! AT NOTRE DAME. By contrast, Weiss has had every recruiting class in the Top 15, and most in the Top 5, including one class that was ranked #1 for a while (don't know how it ended though).

The only people who can look at this situation and think that Willingham doesn't suck, and that Weiss isn't a VAST improvement are people who don't know football very well.

I think you can just look at Washington's program and Notre Dame's and see the difference. Washington has continually declined under Willingham, and Notre Dame had two BCS bids, and has made great jumps in quality this year (when their skill players are older) from last year.

Notre Dame fired Willingham because he sucked. End of. They keep Weiss because he's recruiting very well, and because he's having to fix Willingham's fuck ups.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

But Weiss keeps bringing in these top recruiting classes yet they still keep losing or atleast not winning like Notre Dame should. What did they do last year, win like 3 games or something like that? You know for sure if that was Willingham he would have been canned, hell the fact he lost to Navy last year should have automatically meant a dismissal. This year they are 6-4 but they have played one of the easiest schedules in the country. They've played 1 ranked team and really only 2 good teams and that was North Carolina and Michigan State and they got beat by both of them. To have 4 losses with the schedule they played is kinda pathetic. Also any time ND has been put on a national stage against a great team they have gotten embarrassed the last few years. Whether it was to USC, Michigan(not this year the previous couple years when they were actually good) or in bowl games. Most of those games they didnt just lose they got crushed. Which should call for a dismissal cause if you cant win any big games then whats the point of having you? I didnt mean to drift off topic by bringing up Weiss but I just wanted to point out that I think its b.s. that he still has a job considering they canned Willingham for similar results.

 

[Slyfox696]

But Weiss keeps bringing in these top recruiting classes yet they still keep losing or atleast not winning like Notre Dame should.

Because his recruits are just now starting to reach upper class level. His first recruiting class was to finish off a year that Willingham was botching, so that doesn't really count.

His first true year of recruiting brought in the group that are just now becoming true juniors. Take away kids that may have redshirted, and you are looking at some redshirt sophomores and some juniors. If you look at the Notre Dame depth chart, you'll find very few seniors on it, and ZERO at the offensive skill positions. Why? Because Willingham couldn't recruit them.

What did they do last year, win like 3 games or something like that?

With Willingham's kids are juniors and seniors, and Weiss people as under classmen.

You know for sure if that was Willingham he would have been canned, hell the fact he lost to Navy last year should have automatically meant a dismissal.

So because Willingham couldn't recruit good talent, Weiss should be canned?

One of the biggest reasons Willingham got fired was his inability to attract top football players. If you look at their recruiting classes his last couple years, they are ATROCIOUS teams. At those atrocious recruiting classes are the reason for Notre Dame's down year.

This year they are 6-4 but they have played one of the easiest schedules in the country.

Only because the Big Ten is terrible this year.

They've played 1 ranked team and really only 2 good teams and that was North Carolina and Michigan State and they got beat by both of them.

But they played very well against both of them.

What's the difference between a team like them and a team like LSU? LSU has only played three good teams, and got beat by all of them. And they're ranked in the Top 25.

To have 4 losses with the schedule they played is kinda pathetic.

What's pathetic about losing to 4 teams with a combined 30-10 record?

BC is 7-3 and just beat FSU. UNC is 7-3 and ranked in the Top 25. MSU is 9-2 and could win the Big Ten title. And Pitt is 7-2.

What's pathetic about that?

Also any time ND has been put on a national stage against a great team they have gotten embarrassed the last few years.

They were always against teams with far superior talent. USC and LSU both had just superior athletes. Nothing Weiss can do about getting beat by a superior athletic team, when they weren't his kids that he recruited.

Whether it was to USC, Michigan(not this year the previous couple years when they were actually good) or in bowl games.

They should have beat USC in Quinn's junior year (referees blew a call that cost them the game), and they did beat Michigan two years ago. They get blown out of the bowl games because of athleticism.

Most of those games they didnt just lose they got crushed. Which should call for a dismissal cause if you cant win any big games then whats the point of having you? I didnt mean to drift off topic by bringing up Weiss but I just wanted to point out that I think its b.s. that he still has a job considering they canned Willingham for similar results.

The difference is in the direction of the program. The program did nothing but regress under Willingham, and that includes recruiting. Weiss is bringing in top talent, and that top talent is just now moving to junior and senior level status. They are 6-4 this year, and should end the season 7-5 (after beating Syracuse and losing to USC). That gets them in a bowl game.

And see what happens next year.

 

[Big Sexy]

NBA- Lenny Wilkens, Doc Rivers, Maurice Cheeks, Byron Scott, Bill Russel, KC Jones, Al Attles
You have mixed in some good coaches and bad coaches.

The only coach on that list that you might be able to consider not succesful is Mo Cheeks.

College Football- Sylvester Croom, Turner Gill
Now you HAVE to be kidding me.

Mississippi State and Buffalo were two of the biggest jokes in college football and these guys have taken them to bowl games in a matter of a couple years.

College Basketball- Paul Hewitt, John Thompson, John Thompson Jr,
You mean John Thompson from '85 Georgetown, right? He's the only one worth a damn in your list.

Because it's not like the other two guys have taken their teams to final fours and have had numerous winning seasons.

The only people who can look at this situation and think that Willingham doesn't suck, and that Weiss isn't a VAST improvement are people who don't know football very well.

I'm not saying Willingham doesn't suck, he does. But Weiss isn't a vast improvement, if he was then Notre Dame would be winning a lot more games. It's one thing to be able to recruit good players, but if you can't win games it's irrelevant.

First of all, if those were Willingham's recruits, how come he couldn't win with them? How come Weiss came in and did far better than Willingham did?

Weiss is bringing in top talent, and that top talent is just now moving to junior and senior level status.

So when Willingham loses with his sophmore and junior recruits it's because he was a bad coach, but when Weiss is losing with his recruits that have been there even longer then Willingham's were, it's because they just aren't old enough yet. USC is led by a lot of sophmores and juniors, but they still seem to do fine every year.

Once again I will never say Willingham is a good coach because he's not and he should have been fired, but Weiss hasn't done good either and it's just a little strange that he's getting 10 year extensions instead of being on the chopping block.

 

[BooCocky]

The only coach on that list that you might be able to consider not succesful is Mo Cheeks.

Wilkins was successful, and so was Rivers, but Rivers only successful year was coaching Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.

Mississippi State and Buffalo were two of the biggest jokes in college football and these guys have taken them to bowl games in a matter of a couple years.

What does a Poinsettia flower bowl have to do with Success? When they start bringing in top recruits, and competing for BCS bids then we'll talk

Because it's not like the other two guys have taken their teams to final fours and have had numerous winning seasons.

I know jack shit about college hoops. The only thing i could tell you is Jamie Dixon is a waste of space.

I'm not saying Willingham doesn't suck, he does. But Weiss isn't a vast improvement, if he was then Notre Dame would be winning a lot more games. It's one thing to be able to recruit good players, but if you can't win games it's irrelevant.

ND still has recruits from other coaches, and Weiss runs a different style, so its hard to judge those recruits with his style of play. It was like Walt Harris and Dave Wannstedt. People said Wannstedt couldn't coach, yes, he couldn't coach with Harris' recruits. This is Wanny's first year with all his recruits and he's doing good. Wait until all those players leave from ND then judge him.

Once again I will never say Willingham is a good coach because he's not and he should have been fired, but Weiss hasn't done good either and it's just a little strange that he's getting 10 year extensions instead of being on the chopping block.

I already addressed this.

 

[Big Sexy]

Wilkins was successful, and so was Rivers, but Rivers only successful year was coaching Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.

Rivers also had some very good seasons as Orlando's coach with very little talent.

What does a Poinsettia flower bowl have to do with Success? When they start bringing in top recruits, and competing for BCS bids then we'll talk

These guys have only been head coaches for a few years, it takes time to build a national powerhouse, and in Turner Gill's case he's not going to be able to do it at a MAC school, when he gest hired at a bigger school then he can really show his ability as a coach.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not saying Willingham doesn't suck, he does. But Weiss isn't a vast improvement, if he was then Notre Dame would be winning a lot more games. It's one thing to be able to recruit good players, but if you can't win games it's irrelevant.

Weiss went to TWO BCS games in his first two years! He's 6-4 this year, with losses to teams with a combined 30-10 record.

How is he not winning games?

So when Willingham loses with his sophmore and junior recruits it's because he was a bad coach, but when Weiss is losing with his recruits that have been there even longer then Willingham's were, it's because they just aren't old enough yet.

Willingham didn't lose his job because he was losing games, he lost his job because he was losing games with no improvement in sight.

His first season was 10 wins, and the program regressed every year after that. But, more disturbingly, according to any and ALL official and unofficial sources at Notre Dame, the guy wasn't recruiting anyone that would help him turn things around.

That's why he got fired. If he had been pulling in recruiting classes like Weiss has, I'd agree with you. But he wasn't. And when he went to Washington, the same thing is happening now. I mean, just compare the differences in quality of the teams. One is 6-4 and bowl bound, and the other hasn't even won a game yet.

If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know, I don't know what will.

Weiss hasn't done good either

A career record of 27-19, two BCS bowl bids, Top 5 recruiting classes, and another bowl bid this year isn't good?

Just what exactly are your standards for good, pray tell? Hell, in the same post you were congratulating Sylvester Croom on being a good coach...with a career record of 20-37, and a team record of 3-7 this year.

How is Croom a good coach, but Weiss is not? They're not even comparable. You're not making much sense.

and it's just a little strange that he's getting 10 year extensions instead of being on the chopping block.

When you start reading and hearing all the inside stuff going on at Notre Dame before and after Willingham, it's not really that strange.

My father writes pieces for IrishEyes.com, the Scout.com webpage of Notre Dame. Because of this, he is given membership to their site, and he talks with people, etc. And, for whatever reason, he seems to think I care as deeply about all that stuff as he does. And while i don't, I do hear a lot of stuff that gets talked about, stuff that comes from people in and around the program itself. And I can tell you there are good reasons for the discrepancy between the way the University handled Willingham and Weiss.

 

[Big Sexy]

He's 6-4 this year, with losses to teams with a combined 30-10 record.

Yes, and the teams that he's beaten have a combined record of 18-48.

Weiss went to TWO BCS games in his first two years!

In his first season they got into a BCS game with a 9-2 record, Willingham didn't go to a BCS game but had a better first season with a 10-2 record so Willingham had a better start it just happened to be in a year when there were better records in college football.

How is Croom a good coach, but Weiss is not? They're not even comparable. You're not making much sense.

It's a lot easier to win at a program like Notre Dame then it is at Mississippi State. ND can recruit players on their name alone MS doesn't have that luxury. If Weiss was the coach at MS I guarantee you they still wouldn't be any good. I'm just saying that Croom did a great job taking MS to a bowl game last year. And I never said that Weiss was a bad coach, I just don't think he's doing a very good job at ND. And the biggest reason that ND made it to those 2 BCS games was Brady Quinn who by the way was one of Willingham's recruits.

 

[BooCocky]

Rivers also had some very good seasons as Orlando's coach with very little talent.

define good? Lloyd McClendon had some good seasons coaching a lackluster Pirates team. A coaches success in professional or collegiate sports is based on Win/Losses, conference titles and championships. Something Rivers didnt have until he coached the big three

These guys have only been head coaches for a few years, it takes time to build a national powerhouse, and in Turner Gill's case he's not going to be able to do it at a MAC school, when he gest hired at a bigger school then he can really show his ability as a coach.

Well, I am going to use Fresno State as an example. Year after yr fresno state is competitive, they recruit well, and are coached well. They have a competitive program especially coming from a non BCS school, and over the last 3 or so years Boise States had a successful program, and even the Utes have a successful program. Since 2004 they've won a BCS title game if i remember correctly they could be heading to another one. Fresno State hasn't won any championships but they are competitive at least every year.
So whats successful, a 7-4 season, or a 10-1 or 11-0 season with a BCS bowl game appearance?

you can argue all you want but when push comes to shove Willingham sucked. He was given years to turn that program around and some of his players are still at ND and they are sucking, but with Weiss' recruits they are showing strives and moving forward. Besides, Weiss' freshman are still in school and i believe are juniors this year giving his freshman class of 05 one more year to progress.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

I always say a coach should be defined by how he does in big games against good teams. Look at what Weiss has done in games against good teams since he has been there. He has only 1 win against a top 10 team(Michigan 05) the entire time and only 4 top 25 teams(these rankings are at the time of the games). Look at these scores against some of these teams, most of them arent even close.

05 USC-34 ND-31(that one I will admit ND got robbed)
06 OSU-34 ND-20. That was in the Fiesta Bowl and they got smoked
06 USC-44 ND-24. Another embarrassment
06 Mich-47 ND-21 Another blowout at ND
06 LSU-41 ND-14. Another BCS bowl blowout
07 BC-27 ND-14
07 USC38 ND-0
07 PSU-31 ND-10

Now look at these scores, they arent even close. The only one that was close was the first one against USC and they had Brady Quinn and Jeff Samardjia two players that werent recruited by Weiss. I know he keeps getting these top recruiting classes but when are they gonna do anything? This is his 4th year of recruiting players and he has yet to win a really big game outside of the one against Michigan over 3 years ago.

I know this topic wasnt about Weiss and I shouldnt have brought him up but since Willingham worked at ND I wanted to bring him up. I will admit I dont follow ND really closely but I do watch them sometimes cause Im from Michigan and I am a Michigan and MSU fan and both of them play them every year so I try to keep up with them a little. Also being a Michigan fan I can tell you first hand how overrated those recruiting rankings are. Literally every year Lloyd Carr was here he would bring in a supposed top 10 class many years they were in the top 5 yet every year we would disappoint. Its so hard to judge high school kids, yeah you have your cant miss prospects but many times the ones that you rank highly end up not being as good in college.

Anyway to get back on topic about Ty, like I said originally he deserved to be can and I wont say he didnt. I will also admit that there arent many good black coaches especially in college football in fact I really cant think of any so I could see why teams would be reluctant to hire them. At the same time though I can see where some of the black people are coming from since there havent been many black college head coaches.

 

[Slyfox696]

I always say a coach should be defined by how he does in big games against good teams.

Even when those big games he had to compete with obviously inferior athletes that he didn't recruit?

Look at what Weiss has done in games against good teams since he has been there. He has only 1 win against a top 10 team(Michigan 05) the entire time and only 4 top 25 teams(these rankings are at the time of the games). Look at these scores against some of these teams, most of them arent even close.

05 USC-34 ND-31(that one I will admit ND got robbed)
06 OSU-34 ND-20. That was in the Fiesta Bowl and they got smoked
06 USC-44 ND-24. Another embarrassment
06 Mich-47 ND-21 Another blowout at ND
06 LSU-41 ND-14. Another BCS bowl blowout
07 BC-27 ND-14
07 USC38 ND-0
07 PSU-31 ND-10

Now look at these scores, they arent even close. The only one that was close was the first one against USC and they had Brady Quinn and Jeff Samardjia two players that werent recruited by Weiss.

And neither were ANY of the other players on the teams that lost those games. So, really you're just contradicting yourself.

I know he keeps getting these top recruiting classes but when are they gonna do anything? This is his 4th year of recruiting players and he has yet to win a really big game outside of the one against Michigan over 3 years ago.

Weiss has only had three recruiting classes of his very own, and is working on the fourth. Which means that, at best, his players are now true juniors.

See what happens next year, when he DOES has all his own players, including kids who are seniors.

I will admit I dont follow ND really closely

I do.

but I do watch them sometimes cause Im from Michigan and I am a Michigan and MSU fan and both of them play them every year so I try to keep up with them a little.

We beat Michigan and played Michigan State tough.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

Also being a Michigan fan I can tell you first hand how overrated those recruiting rankings are. Literally every year Lloyd Carr was here he would bring in a supposed top 10 class many years they were in the top 5 yet every year we would disappoint.

That was because the game of football had long passed Lloyd Carr by. Not because the players weren't top athletes.

Anyway to get back on topic about Ty, like I said originally he deserved to be can and I wont say he didnt. I will also admit that there arent many good black coaches especially in college football in fact I really cant think of any so I could see why teams would be reluctant to hire them. At the same time though I can see where some of the black people are coming from since there havent been many black college head coaches.

Exactly. And I understand it to. But, until black coaches prove themselves successful, it's hard to justify them getting jobs.

 

[X]

A) We all know that the only reason Weiss is remaining at Notre Dame, and was even hired in the first place, is because of one man: Bill Belichick. If it weren't for the success that Weiss had under Bill, he wouldn't be a head coach. Only problem with that is that Notre Dame failed to realize that Bill was always the reason for the Pats success; it's the same reason why Romeo Crennel hasn't worked out for the Browns (well, actually thats a bit of a stretch; last year was a great year for them so maybe it has worked out for them) is because Bill was always the REAL mastermind behind the defense.

B) Doc Rivers is a great coach. The idea that he isn't a good coach simply because he has good players if fucking absurd. So Bill Belichick isn't a good coach? Tony Dungy isn't? Tom Coughlin isn't? That's ridiculious reasoning Brian. Contrary to popular belief, you CANNOT just throw talented players together and expect to win. If that were true, the Yankees would've won the World Series the last 5 years in a row, the Cowboys would be 12-0, and the Pats would've won the Super Bowl the last 5 years.

What Doc Rivers did last year with the Celtics was nothing short of astounding. He took 2 players who've spent their entire career focused on offense (Pierce & Allen) and taught them the philosophy of defense wins championships. Since Doc's arrival, Pierce has gone from a mediocre defender to one of the best defending guards in the league. I'm sorry, but there is just no evidence at all to back up your claim that Rivers isn't a good coach. If it wasn't for him, there's no way the Celts would've won that title. No way.

 

[Big Sexy]

last year was Ty Willingham's kids as well.

First of all you keep saying that last years team sucked because it was Willingham's players. Only the seniors on that team were Willingham's the other three years were all of Weiss's players. And even though Weiss didn't have a full year of recruiting for his first season, you still can't blame Willingham for those players because he didn't recruit all of those guys.

Willingham was bringing in recruiting classes ranked IN THE FIFTIES!! THE FIFTIES! AT NOTRE DAME. By contrast, Weiss has had every recruiting class in the Top 15, and most in the Top 5, including one class that was ranked #1 for a while

You keep talking about Willingham have recruiting classes in the fifties, but he never had a class that was even in the forties. His first class was ranked 24th, second class was ranked 12th, and his third class was the only bad one and it was still ranked 32'nd. And Weiss has actually never had a top five class. He had two ranked 8 and one ranked 9. His classes are projected to be better but you don't know if they will. If the classes Willingham had were reranked by how they did then his first 2 classes would be ranked a lot higher, and his 2003 class would probably be considered a top five class.

One of the biggest reasons Willingham got fired was his inability to attract top football players. If you look at their recruiting classes his last couple years, they are ATROCIOUS teams. At those atrocious recruiting classes are the reason for Notre Dame's down year.

His inability to attract TOP players. Let's look at some of the players he recruited: 2002: Maurice Stovall, Rhema Mcknight, Anthony Fasano, 2003: Victor Abiamiri, Ambrose Wooden, Tom Zbikowski, Ryan Harris, John Carlson, Brady Quinn, Jeff Smardzija, Chinedum Ndukwe, John Sullivan 2004: Darius Walker, Marcus Talley, Maurice Crum,
10 of those players are currently on NFL rosters and it would be 11 if Smardzija entered the draft. Also in 2006 when Notre Dame went 10-2, 22 of the 24 starters on that team were Ty Willingham recruits. So if Willingham couldn't recruit then why are so many of his players in the NFL, and why did Weiss's only 2 good seasons at Notre Dame come with a starting lineup of basically all Willingham recruits.

 

[Big Sexy]

In my last post I proved every single one of your points wrong and now in this post I can add more because Notre Dame just lost to a very bad Syracuse team. Next week they are almost guaranteed to lose to USC and that will give them a 6-6 record with only one win over a team with a winning record, and that team was Navy. Right now almost every single player on Notre Dame is a Charlie Weiss recruit. He recruited all of the current freshmen, sophmores, and juniors, and he also recruited a lot of the seniors. So now there really can't be much of an argument made that Willingham deserved to be fired and Weiss doesn't.

 

[Slyfox696]

First of all you keep saying that last years team sucked because it was Willingham's players. Only the seniors on that team were Willingham's the other three years were all of Weiss's players. And even though Weiss didn't have a full year of recruiting for his first season, you still can't blame Willingham for those players because he didn't recruit all of those guys.

What? That doesn't even make sense.

Willingham was sucking his last year of recruiting before Weiss got there. Hell, I'm not sure Willingham would have even been able to put an offense on the field, since he absolutely could not recruit offensive lineman. Willingham recruited 3 desirable OL in his three years...THREE! How did he expect to play anyways? With a bunch of nobodies?

One of your biggest complaints about Weiss references ONE year, 2007. Let's review the offensive line last year, shall we? Since we both Notre Dame's offense is what kept them from winning games. We already know the QB was a true freshman, their best running back (Armando Allen) was a freshman, and David Grimes was the only competent WR that wasn't a sophomore or below. So, youth and inexperience is easy to see there, so let's talk about the OL.

Actually, I found a GREAT quote on it, so allow me to post that. Says it better than me.

All of Davie’s recruits are gone. In 2007, Weis’s offensive line consists of three Willingham recruits, Weis’s seven recruits – one junior and six sophomores, and his four incoming freshmen.

Webb suffers career-ending injury. Carufel transfers part way into the season. Even with those losses, Weis has recruited nine top offensive linemen in two years to Willingham’s three in three years.

Weis uses multiple combinations of offensive linemen to find the right mix. The quarterback is a freshman and most skill position players are underclassmen.

Youth and inexperience show against ten bowl-bound opponents. Remember the adages? In 2007, Notre Dame’s opponents had the ball almost four minutes more per game and had 59 more first downs rushing. The Irish averaged 2.1 yards per carry, converted on 31% of their third downs and gave up a record 58 sacks.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ffensive-line-recruiting-under-ty-and-charlie

On that stellar OL, there was one senior, two juniors, one sophomore, and one freshman. Of the the three upperclass OL, two of them were Willingham's (Sullivan, Duncan). Turkovich was Weiss. And the underclassmen were Weiss.

So, let's review the offense. Three upperclass on the OL (two are Willingham), every one else underclassmen. QB is a true freshman, best running back is a true freshman, and only one of their receivers are junior level or above. John Carlson is a senior.

Just how do you blame Weiss for last season's poor offensive output, when he had NOTHING to put on the field, thanks to Willingham's terrible recruiting.

You keep talking about Willingham have recruiting classes in the fifties, but he never had a class that was even in the forties. His first class was ranked 24th, second class was ranked 12th, and his third class was the only bad one and it was still ranked 32'nd. And Weiss has actually never had a top five class. He had two ranked 8 and one ranked 9. His classes are projected to be better but you don't know if they will. If the classes Willingham had were reranked by how they did then his first 2 classes would be ranked a lot higher, and his 2003 class would probably be considered a top five class.

Willingham's class was rated in the mid to high fifties until Weiss got there to add a couple of top level recruits.

And the 2005 class was STILL rated #40 by Rivals.

http://rivals100.rivals.com/teamrank.asp?Year=2005&Page=2&Type=0&Sort=0

By comparison, the 2006 class was rated 8th by Rivals and 5th by Scout, the 2007 class was rated 8th by Rivals and 11 by Scout, and his 2008 class (even during and after the embarrassing 2007 season) was rated 2nd by both Rivals AND Scout. And as of right now, the 2009 class is rated 9th.

So, yeah, you can't even begin arguing recruiting. Willingham couldn't recruit OL, had no upper class players at skill positions, and had poor showings in recruiting.

His inability to attract TOP players. Let's look at some of the players he recruited: 2002: Maurice Stovall, Rhema Mcknight, Anthony Fasano, 2003: Victor Abiamiri, Ambrose Wooden, Tom Zbikowski, Ryan Harris, John Carlson, Brady Quinn, Jeff Smardzija, Chinedum Ndukwe, John Sullivan 2004: Darius Walker, Marcus Talley, Maurice Crum,

Bob Davie recruited Stovall, McKnight, and Fasano, not Willingham.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/48718-winning-with-tyrone-willinghams-guys-at-notre-dame

Willingham recruited those guys in 2003 and 2004, but how many of them played well under Willingham? Hell, you talk about Smardzija, and Willingham wouldn't even throw him the ball! Jeff had 7 catches his freshman season and 17 his sophomore...with 77 in his junior and 78 in his senior. And don't even get me started on Brady Quinn, and how much better he got under Weiss compared to Willingham. And you can go on down the line for most of those guys.

Also in 2006 when Notre Dame went 10-2, 22 of the 24 starters on that team were Ty Willingham recruits.

Again, not true.

Only six players on the offense were Willingham's kids. Walker, Smardzija, Carlson, Harris, and Sullivan. Quinn was actually recruited by Nduke's father, with some rumors suggesting that Willingham never even saw Quinn on videotape before offering the scholarship. Quinn wanted to go to ND, and Nduke's dad talked Willingham into the scholarship. McKnight was recruited by Bob Davie, as was Bob Morton and Dan Santucci. Sam Young was recruited by Weiss.

On defense, both Landri and Richardson were Bob Davie Recruits. Carl Gioa was a walk-on. So, of 24 starters, it's not 22 that were Willingham's recruits, it was 16, 17 if you wish to include Quinn. Of those 17, FOR SURE Smardzija, Quinn, Walker and Zibby all played far better for Weiss than they ever did for Willingham, and John Carlson only got the starting TE spot after Bob Davie's recruit, Anthony Fasano, graduated.

So, on offense, just who are we going to give Willingham credit for? Harris and Sullivan? Is that it?

So if Willingham couldn't recruit then why are so many of his players in the NFL,

He couldn't recruit. He had one solid year, one average year, and was heading towards a disastrous year. Which is what we saw with last year's team being so bad, yet all underclassmen.

And, of the good talents he did recruit, how many of them ever played well under Willingham? And if Willingham is a good college coach and recruit, why is Washington 0-11 right now? You keep talking about playing with other coach's recruits, hell the only somewhat respectable seaon (5-7) that Willingham has had has been with someone else's recruits. Willingham's only good year at Notre Dame was with Bob Davie's recruits.

Does your hypocrisy know no bounds?

and why did Weiss's only 2 good seasons at Notre Dame come with a starting lineup of basically all Willingham recruits.

In 2005, Weiss didn't win with Willingham recruits, he won with Bob Davie recruits.

Only 3 Willingham recruits started in 2005 on offense (4 when McKnight got hurt): Quinn, Walker, Smardzija (after McKnight's injury) and Harrison. Sullivan could also be counted technically as a starter, I suppose, but he wasn't officially a starter on the depth chart.

On defense, depending on what game, anywhere from 4-6 players on defense were Willingham's recruits, everyone else was Bob Davie.

And the kicking team consisted of a walk-on kicker in DJ Fitzpatrick.

So saying that Notre Dame played with a starting lineup of all Willingham recruits is completely...well, stupid.

Now, we've addressed the past, let's address the future:

In my last post I proved every single one of your points wrong

Hahaha, just because I work too much to respond earlier, didn't mean your posts were even close to accurate. As I have now pointed out.

and now in this post I can add more because Notre Dame just lost to a very bad Syracuse team.

Yes they did. So? It's not like they are the first team to lose to a team they should have beat. It happens.

But, answer me this. Would you take Notre Dame's record right now or Washington's? Would you take Notre Dame's improvement from 3-7 to 6-5, or Washington's nosedive from 4-9 to 0-11 (you know, with Willingham's kids)?

You're a fool if you answer with anything other than Notre Dame.

Next week they are almost guaranteed to lose to USC

Probably. USC almost always brings their "A" game against Notre Dame, and they've already had their annual one lapse game of the year.

Tell me though, how did Willingham fare against USC this year?

and that will give them a 6-6 record with only one win over a team with a winning record, and that team was Navy. Right now almost every single player on Notre Dame is a Charlie Weiss recruit.

Of which only THREE are senior starters on offense, two of which are Willingham recruits (Grimes & Schwapp). And Grimes only starts because Floyd is out. And there are only 5 seniors on the defense, which I believe were all recruited by Willingham.

So, out of 24 starters, only 8 are senior starters, and most don't even play an important role on the team.

He recruited all of the current freshmen, sophmores, and juniors, and he also recruited a lot of the seniors. So now there really can't be much of an argument made that Willingham deserved to be fired and Weiss doesn't.

You don't call two BCS bids, winning twice as many games, another bowl bid, and top recruiting classes every year as an argument to keep a coach?

What world are you living in? I'll say it again. Wait and see what happens next year.

 

[Big Sexy]

Bob Davie recruited Stovall, McKnight, and Fasano, not Willingham.

Davie might have started to recruit them but when Willingham took over he still had to keep recruiting them. It's not like they had their letter of intents already signed before Willingham got there. You're trying to take away all the credit from Willingham for the 2002 class and give him all the blame for the 2005 even though he was equally responsible as Davie was for the 2002 recruits, and equally responsible as Weiss was for the 2005 recruits.

Willingham recruited those guys in 2003 and 2004, but how many of them played well under Willingham?

They didn't play well because they were freshmen and sophmores. You say its not Weiss's fault that his underclassmen aren't playing well but blame Willingham when the underclassmen he had didn't play well.

Would you take Notre Dame's record right now or Washington's? Would you take Notre Dame's improvement from 3-7 to 6-5, or Washington's nosedive from 4-9 to 0-11 (you know, with Willingham's kids)?

I don't care what Willingham is doing in Washington, that's not what this is about. He was succesful at Stanford before going to Notre Dame,but you never seem to mention anything about that.

Willingham's only good year at Notre Dame was with Bob Davie's recruits.

And Weiss's 2 good years came with Davie and Willingham recruits.

You don't call two BCS bids, winning twice as many games, another bowl bid, and top recruiting classes every year as an argument to keep a coach?

No, I don't think that 2 BCS bids with players you didn't recruit, 9 wins total in the last 2 seasons, and recruiting classes that are projected to be great but havent panned out, I don't call that very worthy of being a head coach.

 

[Slyfox696]

Davie might have started to recruit them but when Willingham took over he still had to keep recruiting them. It's not like they had their letter of intents already signed before Willingham got there. You're trying to take away all the credit from Willingham for the 2002 class and give him all the blame for the 2005 even though he was equally responsible as Davie was for the 2002 recruits, and equally responsible as Weiss was for the 2005 recruits.

Not true at all.

When Davie left, he had those guys basically bagged up, and they just signed their official letters of intent. When Willingham left, Weiss pretty much re-recruited all over again.

Completely different.

They didn't play well because they were freshmen and sophmores. You say its not Weiss's fault that his underclassmen aren't playing well but blame Willingham when the underclassmen he had didn't play well.

So now you're saying that Weiss's ONE bad season is ok because they were freshman and sophomores, which is what I said from the very beginning?

I mean, for what basis can you call for Weiss's dismissal? One year where they went 3-9? Take that year out, and you're looking 25-11, and three bowl bids, two of which are BCS. Since you are now saying it's ok for Freshman and Sophomores to not play well, then that pretty much defeats your entire argument for Weiss's dismissal, does it not?

I don't care what Willingham is doing in Washington, that's not what this is about.

I made this thread, and that is EXACTLY what it's about.

He was succesful at Stanford before going to Notre Dame,but you never seem to mention anything about that.

Successful?

He had a winning percentage of .543 at Stanford. Charlie Weiss has a .583 winning percentage at Notre Dame.

If Willingham was successful at Stanford, then Weiss is obviously successful at Notre Dame. Especially when we remember that the only bad year he had was due to freshman and sophomores, which you have already said is understandable.

You rep me talking about how I contradict yourself, and yet, here we are having you make EVERY point for me.

And Weiss's 2 good years came with Davie and Willingham recruits.

And his only bad year came with his recruits as underclassmen.

Wait until next year.

No, I don't think that 2 BCS bids with players you didn't recruit, 9 wins total in the last 2 seasons, and recruiting classes that are projected to be great but havent panned out, I don't call that very worthy of being a head coach.

Then you're not very smart, and need to take a lesson on football.

Two BCS bids are two BCS bids. Are we going to say that Les Miles suck as a coach now, because his successes came from Sabin's kids? When you can go to a BCS game two years in a row, that's remarkable, no matter how you stack it. Then last year, with a season you've already excused now since they were freshman and sophomores, they went 3-9 against either 9 or 10 teams that went to a bowl game. And now this season they are 6-5, doubling their wins from last year, and STILL with most of their skill positions being held by underclassmen.

Only an idiot would fire Weiss now. Outside of the year that Weiss was hamstrung by Willingham, he is 25-11, with three bowl bids, and top recruiting classes.

Only an idiot wouldn't give Weiss another year, or two.

 

[X]

Heres an idea:

Any college can hire and fire whomever they they fucking want. If Notre Dame wants to give Charlie Weiss a 78 year extension and hire an all albino assistant coaching staff, they can. And your opinion on it does not matter.

Last time I checked, there was no Coach's Affirmative Action. These schools can pick and choose whomever they feel like it without having to explain their actions to you; that's their right. Don't like it? Too bad; they don't give a shit.

 

[Big Sexy]

So now you're saying that Weiss's ONE bad season is ok because they were freshman and sophomores, which is what I said from the very beginning?

I never said his bad season wasn't because of that, I'm just saying that Willingham's bad seasons were because of the same reason.

If Willingham was successful at Stanford, then Weiss is obviously successful at Notre Dame.

Based on your definition of succesful, Willingham was succesful at Stanford, and weiss has been succesful at Notre Dame, but I don't think either did that great.

Two BCS bids are two BCS bids.

Just like the 10 wins that willingham had in his first season were 10 wins.


From the beginning my main point has been that if Willingham deserved to get fired then so does Weiss, because their tenures have been almost identical.

Willingham's best season came with other coaches recruits. Weiss's 2 good seasons came with other coaches recruits.

Willingham had 2 bad seasons with young players. Weiss had 2 bad seasons with young players.

The only difference is the rank of the recruiting classes, but projected rankings most of the time aren't right, and if you look at how well the players each coach recruited have done, it's fairly equal. Weiss's projected rankings were better, but his players haven't done that much better then Willingham's did.

Willingham was never given the opportunity to to be the head coach with his recruits as juniors and seniors, so why does Weiss get that oppurtunity? because his recruit classes are projected higher? If his classes were really that good then why are they 6-6 this season. Teams like USC are able to win with young teams because guys like Pete Carrol are great coaches. U of M was able to have 13 staright winning season under Lloyd Carr because he was a great coach. 5-7 seasons and 6-6 seasons are not tolerated at Notre Dame becuase they expect to win at a high level every year. And that is why Willingham was fired. 3-9 and 6-6 seasons aren't tolerated either but Weiss still has his job.

To be a great college coach you have to do things, coach the players you have to winning seasons and recruit well. Weiss might be a better recruiter then Willingham, but Willingham did a better job coaching what he had then Weiss did. When you look at the overall picture of what both coaches have done neither did a good enough job to deserve being the head coach, but Willingham got fired, and Weiss is still there.