Tony Schiavone/Bobby Heenan beef in WCW, and who was the weak link?

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Q: "It looks like Bobby Heenan is to blame for failing to get along with Tony Schiavone in WCW from 1993-2000 because Schiavone is NOT to blame."

In all fairness though Heenan was a fish out of water in WCW to begin with.
I've also heard stories that both Jim Ross and Tony Schiavone were campaigning for the EP job that Eric Bischoff ended up and getting and when they didn't get it JR signed with the WWF/WWE and Schiavone was left feeling extremely bitter and jaded for the rest of time in WCW. He thought about quitting the but the paycheck he was receiving at the time was worth more to him then his pride, dignity and self-respect. Not excusing the way Schiavone treated Heenan but I can see why it happened in a way. Something similar happened between JR and Jesse Ventura back in 1992 too.
In regards to what may have killed Schiavone's motivation and put a bit of a chip on his shoulder where he wanted to be seen as more important, consider three things:
-1) Tony wasn't a wrestling guy. Tony was a baseball guy. Much like Goldberg was a football guy and WCW's mismanagement killed any potential he could've had to grow some sort of love for the business, Tony was disenfranchised by WCW's bs.
-2) Tony was expected by many within the company to be the guy that took over WCW in 1994...NOT Eric Bischoff. To sort-of appropriately use a baseball analogy here, when Don Mattingly was seen as the the heir apparent to Joe Torre to take over the Yankees and Joe Girardi got the position instead, Mattingly felt slighted enough that he left the Yankees. Schiavone, meanwhile, not only stayed, but often had to sit next to the guy who he was passed over for.
-3) After that, Heenan was brought in, effectively killing any chance Tony had of being seen as the "main" commentary guy.
All of this is speculation, of course. But I could see why he deteriorated so much.
Schiavone simply stopped caring at some point during the NWO era of the company and became an on air shill for anything Bischoff fed him on a headset. The nadir of course was the infamous night Foley's title win aired and Schiavone said what he said.
However, Heenan was really only good with Gorilla. I've often wondered why Vince was the main announcer on Summerslam 1992 (was that his first PPV announcing gig?). It struck me that the Bret/Bulldog match on TV is hurt somewhat by Heenan's comedic commentary. There is zero comedy in that match and Heenan actually ruins some thrilling moments. For instance, when Bulldog makes the ropes while in the Sharpshooter, the camera pans to Diana who is in tears of joy....then Heenan kills the moment with some snarky aside like "Hey honey, if you don't like it go home and wash the dishes" or whatever. I think Jesse Ventura would have put that match over better, since he could at least call a face vs. face match if he had to.
I say to the old-school wrestling fans that Bobby Heenan was a poor fit for WCW through no fault of Tony Schiavone. Schiavone is a realistic commentator who rightfully calls the action rather than getting too caught up in the comedy style commentary like Heenan habitually did. No wonder Schiavone (even with lax commentary in the nWo days) improved slightly when he was with Mike Tenay, Lee Marshall, Jesse Ventura, Scott Hudson or even Mark Madden. Heenan was overrated and a one-trick pony commentator from the WWF who was only good and passable when he was paired with Gorilla Monsoon. After leaving the WWF and Monsoon for WCW in late '93, Heenan basically phoned it in. Heenan failed to understand that WCW is NO place for cartoon characters, so Heenan should've checked his WWF mindset at the WCW door. To me, I give Schiavone a free pass for the lax WCW commentary because I don't blame him for being a sook over being turned down for WCW presidency in favor of Eric Bischoff, and we WCW fans should NOT have to hold it against Schiavone. Wanna find the real cause of bad commentary? Blame Heenan instead. His cartoonish comedy heel commentator act is just not WCW material.

After all, Schiavone was an Atlanta Braves commentator. However, to be fair WCW was a different culture of sorts and climate than the WWF was. The WCW had the NWA serious style of announcing tradition for lack of a better term that seemed to carry over into WCW. Bobby was sort of a fish out of water in WCW and in a way he just was not able to maximize on the antics that got him over mega successfully in the WWF. His WCW stay was just average so I can see why I would feel he was overrated. However, it was not that Bobby was not talented it was just that he was in a wrestling promotion that did not highlight his gimmick as much.

 

[Kyphael]

Have to agree and hard to argue facts. I never thought Bobby Heenan was great at commentating. I think he was great at managing heels. I mean sure, once in a while he could sit in and make it a 3 man, as his one liners could make me chuckle, but he should have never been a permanent commentator, even for WWF.

To me the greatest WWF/E commentating teams were as follows; Monsoon/Ventura, Jim Ross/King, and Jim Ross/Heyman. Heenan was great at cutting promos to put over his heels, but that didn't translate well into commentary as he was too over the top to listen to for so long and couldn't dial it down, that's just how his personality was.

Good post.

 

[tdmoon]

I always liked Tony Schiavone. He called wrestling shows on TBS during my early years as a fan and I've always identified him as the voice of the NWA. I don't know what all went on with he and Heenan(who I am also a fan of) but I thought it showed class that he accepted responsibility for some of the issues.

I have watched Atlanta Braves baseball for over thirty years, though, and don't recall him being an announcer for the team.

 

[Cena Is A Punk Rocker]

I believe he is current calling games for one of the Braves minor league affiliates.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It's hard to say why Tony was how he was... he might have been bitter of his WWE experience or Heenan and he might not have gotten along even then. For all the "Heenan sucked in WCW" camp, it is CLEAR Tony sucked in WWE!

It's more likely that this was the second "high profile" commentary steal they had made... Ventura came into WCW and acted the prima donna, when the odd times Tony was half decent in WWE was with Jesse before he had the entitled air about him. Imagine working with a guy for a while, you get told "it's not working, we're letting you go" and then barely 18 months later he's back, on more money than you and acting the star..

Then Heenan came in and by then Tony was basically "where he was" in the business. His pitches for the EP role hadn't gone over, they were going with this WWF invasion stuff and he was going to HAVE to put it over....that was hard enough to stomach but he didn't have to tolerate another Prima Donna in Heenan gladly...

As for Vince at Summerslam... most likely Gorilla was quite advanced in his illness by then and wasn't able to fly to London, although he remained onscreen until 96, he never looked the same...

I disagree on Bobby ruining the match... it kinda worked... Vince could put the action over well and Heenan was playing the essential role in the first non World title, face v face Main Event of a foreign PPV.... the heel.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

I believe he is current calling games for one of the Braves minor league affiliates.

I believe he's working in Starbucks

[YOUTUBE]GST9byVjJ14[/YOUTUBE]

As for Tony Schiavone I believe he was a political player in WCW so that might have upset a lot of people in the announcing booth. I think to get a better perspective in the heat both Tony and Bobby had it's probably best to see what Mike Tenay thought of both guys.

 

[TDFG]

Tony Schiavone & Bobby Heenan together should have been a HOF commentary pairing, instead they never really seemed to click.

I've heard various reasons why, such as Tony using 'political powers' for whatever reason, Heenan making a mistake in joining WCW & wanting to get out, and Schiavone nixing any real tribute to Gorilla Monsoon.

I like Schiavone, he was a long time commentator for WCW and was a big part of WCW. Some of the commentators I've listened to over the last 15 years could do with going back & listening to Schiavone, Jim Ross & Mike Tenay.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Heenan failed to understand that WCW is NO place for cartoon characters, so Heenan should've checked his WWF mindset at the WCW door.

Clearly

You're right about Heenan basically just 'phoning it in' for WCW. It was a paycheck for him. He didn't care for the company, how they did business, and he did not get along with Schiavone at all. The two simply didn't click, and did not like each other.

As with anyone in similar situations though, it goes both ways. Both had their issues and probably took their shit out on the other guy. Neither seemed too like the company that much, and gave the vibe too often that they were just there because it was their job and they had to. And that's probably the truth of it. Neither guy was happy with where they ended up. Neither guy was happy with how things were happening. How things were done. And both let it show in their work far too often, as well as let it affect their personal and professional relationship with the other.

It's a shame too, because both of them were very good. Schiavone was a great play by play guy, who even if he wasn't the biggest fan of the business, got it. And Heenan was a comedic genius who could add so much to a show. Yes, he was great with Monsoon, but it's completely unfair to him to say that's all he was, and shows a complete ignorance of how great the man actually was.

They could have been a great pairing, but putting two knowledgeable professionals in an environment that was infamous for booking half their shows on the fly, and expecting the commentary team to carry that when they would have had minimal knowledge of how they were supposed to present half the stuff they were given? Especially for Heenan coming from a more structured, organized environment like the WWF? It couldn't have been easy.

 

[OYDK]

Man, I hated Tony Schiavone. That guy came off as so arrogant and entitled at the desk, especially when working with Brain and Dusty, that I thought he would have worked much better as a heel commentator. Putting him beside Heenan kind of nixed any chance of that happening though. I don't know, as a commentator he was solid enough but he was also one of the corniest play-by-play guys in wrestling history, which worked fine in the later days of the NWA and early days of WCW, but his style didn't really mesh at all with the edgier wrestling product of the late 90s in my opinion.

I'm biased here because I absolutely love Heenan, but from my perspective, Schiavone was just a jerk with a chip on his shoulder. It seemed like Schiavone had to make sure he looked better than Heenan in every conceivable way. I remember hearing stories of how he forced WCW to lower Heenan's chair so that Tony appeared taller than him. If you go back and watch, Schiavone clearly takes potshots at Heenan throughout their time together while Bobby mostly tries to keep it professional. There's also the Gorilla incident and much more crap that went on. So far, I've yet to hear similar stories of Heenan doing this type of stuff to Schiavone, though somebody may want to enlighten me on this.

Perhaps Bobby wasn't at his best in WCW, but a huge part of the reason for that was because he lost interest and motivation after a few years or so with the company. He's basically said he never felt comfortable there and after a while, he was just there to collect his paycheck and go home. If anybody is to blame for the lack of chemistry between Heenan and Schiavone, it was Tony in my opinion.

 

[dsotm5150]

I seem to recall hearing somewhere and i dont know how true it is as neither Schiavone or Bischoff have confirmed it. Allegedly Schiavone starting becoming unbearable to his coworkers after he got passed over by TBS in lieu of Bischoff to run WCW. I want to say it was Jim Ross who aluded to this, obviously Schiavone got bumped to lead commentator after Ross was let go and would go out of his way to make sure he was untouchable which rubbed everyone the wrong way. That was allegedly due to a staff meeting where Eric Bischoff pretty much told all the on air on personnel that as more and more WWF talent became available that "They could be replaced at anytime as they worked to shed the southern redneck NWA persona of WCW" That much has been confirmed by everyone from Heenan and Tenay to even Schiavone himself that he wasn't the easiest guy to get along with from around late '96 when the pressure was on to take WCW to the next level up until the end of WCW.

All roads point to his fall out with Heenan to be the Monday Nitro after Gorilla Monsoons passing where Heenan had everyone's blessing including Bischoff's to pay tribute to his best friend on air but was denied last minute by Schiavone because he wasn't told that Bischoff had given permission for Heenan to do so and refused to deviate from the script.

Schiavone was on JR's or Flair's podcast I can't remember which one where he said he had the opportunity to reconnect with Heenan about 10 years ago at a Comi-Con and that Heenan told him to call him sometime so they could catch up and that he just never followed through with it and regretted the fact that he didn't as Heenan has all but closed the door on the two rekindling their friendship.

Everything I've heard or read regarding Schiavone's time in WCW is that everyone was always on eggshells because management was always changing in the early days and no one knew whether they were safe or not and as soon as Schiavone got in a position of power he was damned if he was going to lose it.

 

[Makaveli31]

1) Tony wasn't a wrestling guy. Tony was a baseball guy. Much like Goldberg was a football guy and WCW's mismanagement killed any potential he could've had to grow some sort of love for the business, Tony was disenfranchised by WCW's bs.

Tony's first love was baseball. He enjoyed calling minor league baseball and really only became a wrestling "play by play" guy so to speak out of necessity. I think he grew to love NWA Wrestling under Crockett w/ Dusty and Flair etc...but didn't love it once it became WCW. Coming from a pro sports background and the "realistic" nature of JCP it would be hard for someone like Schiavone to be comfortable with the more cartoonish aspect of the business especially in the mid-90's.

Tony was expected by many within the company to be the guy that took over WCW in 1994...NOT Eric Bischoff. To sort-of appropriately use a baseball analogy here, when Don Mattingly was seen as the the heir apparent to Joe Torre to take over the Yankees and Joe Girardi got the position instead, Mattingly felt slighted enough that he left the Yankees.

LOL he wasn't "Mattingly passed over for Torre" he was Mattingly passed over for the minor league third base coach!! Bischoff was a third team announcer. Even he admits that many in WCW and Turner didn't even know who he was. Meanwhile, Schiavone was VERY involved in the NWA/WCW wrestling programming from '85-'89 then '91-'94. Not hard too seee how Schiavone could become disgruntled especially after Bischoff becomes on-air talent. You could hear the disdain in Schiavone's voice for Bischoff.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Clearly

You're right about Heenan basically just 'phoning it in' for WCW. It was a paycheck for him. He didn't care for the company, how they did business, and he did not get along with Schiavone at all. The two simply didn't click, and did not like each other.

As with anyone in similar situations though, it goes both ways. Both had their issues and probably took their shit out on the other guy. Neither seemed too like the company that much, and gave the vibe too often that they were just there because it was their job and they had to. And that's probably the truth of it. Neither guy was happy with where they ended up. Neither guy was happy with how things were happening. How things were done. And both let it show in their work far too often, as well as let it affect their personal and professional relationship with the other.

It's a shame too, because both of them were very good. Schiavone was a great play by play guy, who even if he wasn't the biggest fan of the business, got it. And Heenan was a comedic genius who could add so much to a show. Yes, he was great with Monsoon, but it's completely unfair to him to say that's all he was, and shows a complete ignorance of how great the man actually was.

They could have been a great pairing, but putting two knowledgeable professionals in an environment that was infamous for booking half their shows on the fly, and expecting the commentary team to carry that when they would have had minimal knowledge of how they were supposed to present half the stuff they were given? Especially for Heenan coming from a more structured, organized environment like the WWF? It couldn't have been easy.

Perhaps it was more guys he liked/respected like John Tenta and Ed Leslie phoning it in under such lazy booking... EARTHQUAKE!!!! was someone Heenan could big up on the mic.... Shark? He could only cringe...

Brutus was always Hogan's buddy but he could legit hate on him as a heel Colour guy... oh, he's a heel...and he SUCKS... no wonder the guy struggled!

 

[Makaveli31]

Honestly I've never heard of Heenan and Schiavone not getting along during their time with WCW. They might not have been best pals like Gorilla and Bobby but I never knew of any heat DURING their time together announcing. If you believe Tony, the heat between them occurred AFTER Bobby Heenan was let go by WCW. Brad Seigel, head of Turner Entertainment, had told Schiavone not to contact Heenan after his release. Tony, the consummate company guy listened to his boss and didn't contact Heenan after the firing. Not even to see how he was doing. For the record, Schiavone says he regrets this and wishes he would've contacted Bobby.

 

[Makaveli31]

Update: It was Craig Leathers not Brad Siegel who ordered Schiavone not to contact Heenan due to an impending lawsuit.

 

[rmp0012002]

I think Heenan had a bit of an issue with Tony not being a "wrestling" guy having come from baseball. I could see Schiavone being pissed at being passed over but he always did as he was told by management. Heenan was always the comedic element and that didn't work in WCW. From starting out with Crockett's minor league team to wrestling to doing Georgia football and other sports for them he's done pretty well.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Perhaps it was more guys he liked/respected like John Tenta and Ed Leslie phoning it in under such lazy booking... EARTHQUAKE!!!! was someone Heenan could big up on the mic.... Shark? He could only cringe...

Brutus was always Hogan's buddy but he could legit hate on him as a heel Colour guy... oh, he's a heel...and he SUCKS... no wonder the guy struggled!

You missed the point.

The OP mentioned that Heenan didn't understand that WCW was no place for 'cartoon characters' and should have checked his WWF mindset at the WCW door.

So I show WCW's Dungeon of Doom. Arguably as big (or bigger) of a cartoon than anything WWF did. Thing with those guys too... was that WCW had them challenging Hogan in the main event. At least with the WWF, they tended to keep that stuff more in the mid-card.

However...

If the writing was good enough to get him engaged (it wasn't - Dungeon of F'N Doom is the perfect example)... Heenan could have easily handled those gimmicks.

Let's not kid ourselves. Tenta being called Earthquake isn't much better than being called Shark. Earthquake was kind of a stupid gimmick too (look, the fat guy jumps up and down and makes the earth shake - it's an earthquake!). But the way it was presented made it work. Shark was a dumb gimmick also (look, the fat guy acts like a f'n shark). But the way that was presented... made it just look like a dumb gimmick.

That was basically the difference between a lot of what the WWF did, and what WCW did. Their ideas on the surface were just typical wrestle crap. But the way they each presented their wrestle crap made the difference. WCW would have had the fat guy just keep jumping up and down until you thought maybe this guy just needs to use the washroom. WWF made sure that when the fat guy jumped up and down, you actually took it seriously.

And that's why Heenan phoned it in for WCW while he gave it his all in the WWF. Because if the rest of them didn't care... why should he?

 

[FromGlasgow]

I liked both Schiavone and Heenan together and with others, There was better pairings like Monsoon and Heenan but that wasn't happening in WCW and Schiavone and Heenan even on their worst days are still miles ahead of any wrestling commentary out there today, Would you rather watch Michael Cole drone on for 3 hours advertising the WWE network?
I know Heenan has his health problems now but would love to see Schiavone back in wrestling in some way.

 

[harrythem]

Heenan was the WCW weak link.

Yeah he was more talented than Tony but, in WCW, he clearly didn't give even half a fuck about the shit he was having to call and he let it show in his work, pretty much to the point that I have no idea why he wasn't fired for his highly unprofessional attitude. Hell he almost spoiled the biggest shock in wrestling history when Hogan came out at Bash 96. Bobby's book talks about how he was so miserable in WCW and his heart wasn't in it.

Tony might not have had the talent of Bobby (or even Jim Ross) but he sure as hell tried his best to attempt to make the shite WCW served up sound exciting

 

[Makaveli31]

Hell he almost spoiled the biggest shock in wrestling history when Hogan came out at Bash 96. Bobby's book talks about how he was so miserable in WCW and his heart wasn't in it.

Well technically he did spoil it but it was still so shocking nobody remembers Bobby spilling the beans.

Heenan is also infamous in Cactus's book. After Mick Foley takes a Vader Bomb on the concrete floor almost killing him Heenan's only expression is "That'll give you Excedrin headache number 9".

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Heenan was the WCW weak link.

Yeah he was more talented than Tony but, in WCW, he clearly didn't give even half a fuck about the shit he was having to call and he let it show in his work, pretty much to the point that I have no idea why he wasn't fired for his highly unprofessional attitude. Hell he almost spoiled the biggest shock in wrestling history when Hogan came out at Bash 96. Bobby's book talks about how he was so miserable in WCW and his heart wasn't in it.

Tony might not have had the talent of Bobby (or even Jim Ross) but he sure as hell tried his best to attempt to make the shite WCW served up sound exciting

The thing with that was, it made perfect sense for Heenan to say exactly what he said that night.

He had been one of Hogan's biggest foes for over a decade. He had always talked about how Hogan wasn't the great guy that everyone thought he was. Heenan questioning Hogan's allegiance when he came out that night seemed to me the most natural thing in the world. It would have seemed off to me if he didn't say anything and just blindly cheered WCW's savior Hulk Hogan.

 

[OYDK]

The thing with that was, it made perfect sense for Heenan to say exactly what he said that night.

He had been one of Hogan's biggest foes for over a decade. He had always talked about how Hogan wasn't the great guy that everyone thought he was. Heenan questioning Hogan's allegiance when he came out that night seemed to me the most natural thing in the world. It would have seemed off to me if he didn't say anything and just blindly cheered WCW's savior Hulk Hogan.

Exactly. I've always heard this line that "Heenan nearly ruined the best reveal in history", but if Heenan just sits there praising Hogan, I'm almost expecting him to drop the leg on Macho Man. Bobby always doubted Hulk Hogan, it was a huge part of his character, especially as an announcer, so of course he was going to doubt him at the most opportune time. And than he built off of it by constantly reminding everybody that he's always been right about Hulk. Heenan saying "which side is he on?" actually made that moment more unpredictable in my eyes. When Hogan came out, there were two options:

1. Hogan helps WCW repel the Outsiders OR

2. Hogan joins the Outsiders...

I never really got why Heenan alluding to one of the obvious options constituted ruining the reveal. Do we need everything spoon-fed to us? Did Bobby mentioning something that was at the back of our minds really have that much of an impact on that night? I just never understood some people's line of thinking when it came to that argument.