Toilets cannot face Mecca??

[HBK-aholic]

I'm trying my hardest not to turn this into a rant. I will try really really hard. But I don't know if I'll be able to.

The stadium for the London Olympics is currently being built. However a plan had to be changed slightly because toilets aren't allowed to face Mecca. I think this is completely pointless. The reason? Not to offend Muslims. I'm sorry, but if you get that easily offended you shouldn't be at a sporting event.

I'm sure soon we won't be able to face Mecca. Oh Gosh, don't want people thinking we're being offensive. Extremely pissed off at this. It's a toilet, and it's a direction. How do people go to the toilet in Mecca??

So..should they have to change the way the toilets face? Or should people get over it and realise it means nothing?

 

[AnthonyMango/NoFate007]

I don't see the point in people being so increasingly sensitive. Actually, no, scratch that adjective. They aren't being sensitive. They're being overwhelmingly bitchy lol. Every little problem has to become a big thing nowadays! So the toilets face Mecca. Big deal. Don't use them. What makes the religious doctrine that states such any better than what anybody else believes? For the record, I don't believe in any religion, before anybody thinks that I'm just saying it because I'm a Christian/Jew/whatever and I'm not...whatever division classifies toilet angles to be holy. They all have their quarks.

But back to the topic. London Olympics. The Olympics are supposed to be about countries getting together, not religions, right? So why are religions being brought up? Some religions believe you can't eat meat on a Friday....are they still serving meat in the cafeterias on Friday? Uh oh! Political outrage! Chaos! You can't give special treatment to one religion and not the others, just as you ethically shouldn't give unfair advantages to certain countries. If toilets facing Mecca bothers people, they can find one that doesn't. Pretty soon everyone will be offended by everything in this world and we'll all just collapse into some oblivion devoid of common sense lol.

What a crappy start to the London Olympics.



Couldn't resist saying that

 

[Father:_Polley]

Typical British mentality though. Bend over backwards to avoid offending minorities. It's the one thing that irritates me about British society. Anyone and everyone can say something to offend something that has been a part of the British culture for years, yet political correctness forbids anyone saying anything bad against anyone else.

Now, before I'm accused of being racist, homophobic, intolerant, sexist or any other term you want to throw out there because I'm a straight, white, Christian male allow me to explain this.

I don't care if anyone wants to make fun of any aspect of my life. I don't care because I am living the way I choose to. But I will be damned if someone feels they can do it, yet then turn round and accuse me of being politically incorrect when they have done the same thing to me, simply because I am not a member of any minority groups. The political correctness issue swings both ways my friend.

I would ask this...how many Muslims haven't bought a house because they would be looking towards Mecca when they are going to the toilet. How many people even know what direction their toilet faces (mine faces east downstairs and the upstairs one is south)???

To me, this is political correctness gone too far. It sums up just what Britain is, so maybe it works well in the Olympic stadium

 

[The Snake]

Allow me to put an extra spin on this. If the architects/builders are being pedantic, then what does that make people on this board? I mean seriously, does this really affect your lives in any way knowing this? The olympics is the best part of 4 years away, if the Olympic commitee wants to do this, then let them, noone will give a darn which direction they are facing but it's not as if this is going to delay the stadium by an entire year or something.

It's very ironic this whole slagging thing. To be honest I think it's a decent thing to do, it's more courteous than anything, it doesn't bother me in the slightest but if it means something to a few people then I'm certainly not against it, it's a minor change that will affect a minority of people, nothing wrong with that. On a side note, the Olympics over here will suck anyway, it'll be so sentimental and patriotic, I might go along to see Bolt or someone, but I'm never taken in by the Olympics.

A final note, it seems that anti political correctness people go out of their way to make a point about it, just as politically correct people do, I don't see how if this doesn't affect someone directly (is anyone going to actually go into the toilets and go "Why the hell is this not facing Mecca?!") that there is any need to complain about it, can someone explain this to me?

 

[Tastycles]

The thing is with this kind of story is that the kinds of news outlets you read it in have an agenda. If you look at the actual facts the picture changes.In the story, it is portrayed that all of the toilets have been changed, but this isn't the case at all. In reality, it is just some of the toilets, and to be honest I think you have to accept this.

The thing is, is that the Olympics are an international event that are designed with the intent of bringing people together, and if it is within someone's culture to desire a particular toilet arrangement, then it is the responsibility of the Olympic host city. The stadium will cater for lots of cultures. You'll never see a newspaper story about some of the food at the stadium being kosher, but it is the same principle.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Allow me to put an extra spin on this. If the architects/builders are being pedantic, then what does that make people on this board? I mean seriously, does this really affect your lives in any way knowing this? The olympics is the best part of 4 years away, if the Olympic commitee wants to do this, then let them, noone will give a darn which direction they are facing but it's not as if this is going to delay the stadium by an entire year or something.

It's very ironic this whole slagging thing. To be honest I think it's a decent thing to do, it's more courteous than anything, it doesn't bother me in the slightest but if it means something to a few people then I'm certainly not against it, it's a minor change that will affect a minority of people, nothing wrong with that. On a side note, the Olympics over here will suck anyway, it'll be so sentimental and patriotic, I might go along to see Bolt or someone, but I'm never taken in by the Olympics.

A final note, it seems that anti political correctness people go out of their way to make a point about it, just as politically correct people do, I don't see how if this doesn't affect someone directly (is anyone going to actually go into the toilets and go "Why the hell is this not facing Mecca?!") that there is any need to complain about it, can someone explain this to me?

Easily. You answered it when you asked why the direction should matter. It shouldn't. Wow, a couple of people believe in a made up God and they may get offended because of toilets facing a certain direction so we'll change things. Do you not see how stupid that is? Shall I get offended now that the toilets DON'T face Mecca? What if I want them to?

 

[Father:_Polley]

A final note, it seems that anti political correctness people go out of their way to make a point about it, just as politically correct people do, I don't see how if this doesn't affect someone directly (is anyone going to actually go into the toilets and go "Why the hell is this not facing Mecca?!") that there is any need to complain about it, can someone explain this to me?

No-one was saying the toilets had to face Mecca, it's the fact that someone clearly went 'Oh, we can't offend anyone one so toilets must point away from Mecca'. I have no problem with a Muslim complaining about such things, but I think it's silly to make a change everything because there is a slight chance people may complain.

It's fine saying that they're trying to please everyone, but the fact is it can't be done. There are just too many difference in the world to please everyone

 

[HBK-aholic]

Allow me to put an extra spin on this. If the architects/builders are being pedantic, then what does that make people on this board? I mean seriously, does this really affect your lives in any way knowing this? The olympics is the best part of 4 years away, if the Olympic commitee wants to do this, then let them, noone will give a darn which direction they are facing but it's not as if this is going to delay the stadium by an entire year or something.

It's very ironic this whole slagging thing. To be honest I think it's a decent thing to do, it's more courteous than anything, it doesn't bother me in the slightest but if it means something to a few people then I'm certainly not against it, it's a minor change that will affect a minority of people, nothing wrong with that. On a side note, the Olympics over here will suck anyway, it'll be so sentimental and patriotic, I might go along to see Bolt or someone, but I'm never taken in by the Olympics.

A final note, it seems that anti political correctness people go out of their way to make a point about it, just as politically correct people do, I don't see how if this doesn't affect someone directly (is anyone going to actually go into the toilets and go "Why the hell is this not facing Mecca?!") that there is any need to complain about it, can someone explain this to me?

Easily. You answered it when you asked why the direction should matter. It shouldn't. Wow, a couple of people believe in a made up God and they may get offended because of toilets facing a certain direction so we'll change things. Do you not see how stupid that is? Shall I get offended now that the toilets DON'T face Mecca? What if I want them to?

 

[Gelgarin]

Right; the forum is going haywire over here, and I don't have the damndist idea if my last post posted or not. I could see it, not I can't. But it took a while to write so I'm going to post it again.

Easily. You answered it when you asked why the direction should matter. It shouldn't. Wow, a couple of people believe in a made up God and they may get offended because of toilets facing a certain direction so we'll change things. Do you not see how stupid that is? Shall I get offended now that the toilets DON'T face Mecca? What if I want them to?

All right; for a start, it's one and a half million people in the UK. Not a couple.
Secondly, it's not all the toilets; it's a percentage of the toilets.
Thirdly, it's not a change to the design; it's simply something that the archetects of the 80,000 seat stadium kept in mind.

Lastly... you sound ridiculous. Sorry, but when you take a story that was broken by the Daily Mail (affectionately known as the newspaper for small-minded bigots), and wave it around like it's a serious issue. I think I understand though. I think your assuming that there was some kind of outcry from the Muslim community about the direction of our bathrooms. Let me sooth your mind with a little practical demonstration.

Go fire up Google and type "toilets can't face Mecca" into the search engine. If your results are anything like mine, you'll see this debate on the front fucking page. That's how much of an issue this is. The Muslim community in this country (which I'll mention again is the second largest religious group) have got perfectly used to squatting sideways on public bathrooms. This minor development in a major public building isn't pandering. It isn't obsessive political correctness. It isn't any of the things that the backlash brigade (that's you guys ) is going to try and call it. All it is is 'being nice to Muslims' and I'm honestly confused as to why a bunch of generally liberal people why are all very quick to tell everyone that they arn't racists, have such a problem with that.

So to summerise with regards to this issue.

1) It doesn't cost anybody and money.
2) It doesn't mean any real extra work on the stadium.
3) It is not invoking any kind of legal precident.
4) It is not upsetting anybody with a fully functioning brain.
5) It makes the stadium a nicer and more accessable place for 1,500,000 people.

What the fuck is wrong with that?

I'm having fun here so I'm going to milk the Halal cow a bit more and complain about the ridiculous backlash started by 'non-racist' media sources and taken up by 'non-racist' people every time the slightest thing is done in this country to accomodate Muslims.

I can remember last year when my weekly episode of question time was ruined because a group of people thought that the adaptation of aspects of Sharia Law into the British system was a bad thing; regardless of the fact that it wouldn't affect them in the slightest. And regardless of the fact that the same provisions had been made for Jews and Christians for generations.

Which brings me full circle the the origional point by allowing my the bring forward the argument that I forgot which is that this kind of accommodation happens all the time and if it doesn't involve dusky people called Achmed then nobody cares.

Schools are required by law to cater to the minority group known as vegetarians. Oh ee oh ee oh ee oh.

Supermarkets usually stock special food for Jewish people despite not making much money off of it. Gosh!

Some places have signs written in Polish as well (allthough since Polls are the new Blacks this one does get some attention)

Hell, to go full circle again, you can bet your ass that the London Olympic commitie will waste money building special toilets to cater to the constantly bleating minority group known as the physically handicapped. Go complain about that and see how far you get.

No Muslims = No Interest.

Oh, and as for you question about how people go to the bathroom in Mecca; I wound imagine the bathrooms face away from the Kaaba. And I'd also imagine that Mecca is the only place in the world where this preposterous issue matters in the slightest.

So year. When the Muslim masses start marching down my street demanding that I change the position of my toilet then I'll concede that you've got a point. Until then, those of you with a problem about that are very much sitting in glass houses throwing stones at Arabs. Which where I come from is a hate crime.

 

[Gelgarin]

Easily. You answered it when you asked why the direction should matter. It shouldn't. Wow, a couple of people believe in a made up God and they may get offended because of toilets facing a certain direction so we'll change things. Do you not see how stupid that is? Shall I get offended now that the toilets DON'T face Mecca? What if I want them to?

All right; for a start, it's one and a half million people in the UK. Not a couple.
Secondly, it's not all the toilets; it's a percentage of the toilets.
Thirdly, it's not a change to the design; it's simply something that the archetects of the 80,000 seat stadium kept in mind.

Lastly... you sound ridiculous. Sorry, but when you take a story that was broken by the Daily Mail (affectionately known as the newspaper for small-minded bigots), and wave it around like it's a serious issue. I think I understand though. I think your assuming that there was some kind of outcry from the Muslim community about the direction of our bathrooms. Let me sooth your mind with a little practical demonstration.

Go fire up Google and type "toilets can't face Mecca" into the search engine. If your results are anything like mine, you'll see this debate on the front fucking page. That's how much of an issue this is. The Muslim community in this country (which I'll mention again is the second largest religious group) have got perfectly used to squatting sideways on public bathrooms. This minor development in a major public building isn't pandering. It isn't obsessive political correctness. It isn't any of the things that the backlash brigade (that's you guys ) is going to try and call it. All it is is 'being nice to Muslims' and I'm honestly confused as to why a bunch of generally liberal people why are all very quick to tell everyone that they arn't racists, have such a problem with that.

So to summerise with regards to this issue.

1) It doesn't cost anybody and money.
2) It doesn't mean any real extra work on the stadium.
3) It is not invoking any kind of legal precident.
4) It is not upsetting anybody with a fully functioning brain.
5) It makes the stadium a nicer and more accessable place for 1,500,000 people.

What the fuck is wrong with that?

I'm having fun here so I'm going to milk the Halal cow a bit more and complain about the ridiculous backlash started by 'non-racist' media sources and taken up by 'non-racist' people every time the slightest thing is done in this country to accomodate Muslims.

I can remember last year when my weekly episode of question time was ruined because a group of people thought that the adaptation of aspects of Sharia Law into the British system was a bad thing; regardless of the fact that it wouldn't affect them in the slightest. And regardless of the fact that the same provisions had been made for Jews and Christians for generations.

Which brings me full circle the the origional point by allowing my the bring forward the argument that I forgot which is that this kind of accommodation happens all the time and if it doesn't involve dusky people called Achmed then nobody cares.

Schools are required by law to cater to the minority group known as vegetarians. Oh ee oh ee oh ee oh.

Supermarkets usually stock special food for Jewish people despite not making much money off of it. Gosh!

Some places have signs written in Polish as well (allthough since Polls are the new Blacks this one does get some attention)

Hell, to go full circle again, you can bet your ass that the London Olympic commitie will waste money building special toilets to cater to the constantly bleating minority group known as the physically handicapped. Go complain about that and see how far you get.

No Muslims = No Interest.

Oh, and as for you question about how people go to the bathroom in Mecca; I wound imagine the bathrooms face away from the Kaaba. And I'd also imagine that Mecca is the only place in the world where this preposterous issue matters in the slightest.

So year. When the Muslim masses start marching down my street demanding that I change the position of my toilet then I'll concede that you've got a point. Until then, those of you with a problem about that are very much sitting in glass houses throwing stones at Arabs. Which where I come from is a hate crime.

 

[The Snake]

Easily. You answered it when you asked why the direction should matter. It shouldn't. Wow, a couple of people believe in a made up God and they may get offended because of toilets facing a certain direction so we'll change things. Do you not see how stupid that is? Shall I get offended now that the toilets DON'T face Mecca? What if I want them to?

I sort of meant it doesn't matter to the majority.

Also - You don't believe in a God that may or may not exist, I'll ask you to prove it to me that a divine being does not exist if you are going to make such a strong claim, I have no set position on it, so if you could provide me with a dossier proving that God does not exist i'll be glad to read it. Or were you simply making a controversial statement because it's not OK for atheists to just sit on their beliefs and not snap at anything to do with religion.

Here is another question. If the architects decided - How about we just change the direction of the toilets because we want to (nothing to do with Mecca involved, just because they think it would be better), would you complain, no you wouldn't and the reason is because you would not care, most people do not care about the direction of something, but we must be courteous to a minority (but a significant minority) who do care.

Your last statement is completely pointless aswell, "What if" is such a leaky statement, because it is way too hypothetical, the fact is people who are not muslim and are not involved in the Olympic stadium building do not care about this, and the only reason they would care is to make a point about something that is merely a formality.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Easily. You answered it when you asked why the direction should matter. It shouldn't. Wow, a couple of people believe in a made up God and they may get offended because of toilets facing a certain direction so we'll change things. Do you not see how stupid that is? Shall I get offended now that the toilets DON'T face Mecca? What if I want them to?

You obviously don't think it's that big of a deal if they face toward Mecca, so why is it a big deal if they don't? If they do change it, then is it really going to matter to anyone who isn't Muslim? Yeah, I don't think so. The people who do want it changed, whoever they are, want it to be changed because they understand the significance of Mecca, even if you don't, not because it's a stupid whim of theirs. I don't get offended by most things as a Muslim, but I find it funny that people will say others get offended easily and then respond in the same manner.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[HBK-aholic]

I was going to break all that do wn Gelgarin, but all I hear you talking about is racism. Is Islam even a race? I didn't think so. So how on Earth can someone be racist for saying how stupid this is? I'd say exactly the same thing if Christians or Jews were complaining about something this stupid. And I just KNEW someone would imply I was a racist. Proving my point everything is turned into something about race nowadays. Race has nothing to do with this argument.

And a couple of other points I will address, which aren't as ignorant as the race ones.

Some places have signs written in Polish as well (allthough since Polls are the new Blacks this one does get some attention)

If you come to England you learn English. I wouldn't go over to Poland and expect signs written in English for me.

Oh wait, am I racist now?

Supermarkets usually stock special food for Jewish people despite not making much money off of it. Gosh!

Well for a start, they will make money off of it. Secondly, they're choosing to stock it. Not because a load of people are complaining, or because they're so scared it'll cause offence. They do it to make them money.

Hell, to go full circle again, you can bet your ass that the London Olympic commitie will waste money building special toilets to cater to the constantly bleating minority group known as the physically handicapped. Go complain about that and see how far you get.

I'm sure they chose to be physically handicaped, didn't they? I'm sure they could use those toilets with no wheelchair access up 10 flights of stairs, couldn't they? Oh no, they can't. And that right there is your difference.

Oh, and as for you question about how people go to the bathroom in Mecca; I wound imagine the bathrooms face away from the Kaaba. And I'd also imagine that Mecca is the only place in the world where this preposterous issue matters in the slightest.

It's a stupid issue, one which only comes about because of the amount of people who will, like yourself, call people, or the country, racist if they don't build their toilets a certain way.

I can remember last year when my weekly episode of question time was ruined because a group of people thought that the adaptation of aspects of Sharia Law into the British system was a bad thing; regardless of the fact that it wouldn't affect them in the slightest. And regardless of the fact that the same provisions had been made for Jews and Christians for generations.

They've added Sharia law into it now too? Wow what is happening in the world? And before you say I hate all Muslims, I also hate the fact laws cater for any religion, as not all people believe in that religion, but all people have to abide by laws set.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I sort of meant it doesn't matter to the majority.

Also - You don't believe in a God that may or may not exist, I'll ask you to prove it to me that a divine being does not exist if you are going to make such a strong claim, I have no set position on it, so if you could provide me with a dossier proving that God does not exist i'll be glad to read it. Or were you simply making a controversial statement because it's not OK for atheists to just sit on their beliefs and not snap at anything to do with religion.

I'm sick of having views forced down my throat from people who do believe in god. Because apparently it's okay to believe in him buy it's not okay not to? Sam made an interesting point in another thread before, about how Athiests were always so scared of offending people they'd write at the top of a post "No offence to be taken", yet when Christians/Muslims wrote a post all about God, they didn't write anything of the nature. My point basically being, if people can say God exists so often, I can say he doesn't.

Here is another question. If the architects decided - How about we just change the direction of the toilets because we want to (nothing to do with Mecca involved, just because they think it would be better), would you complain, no you wouldn't and the reason is because you would not care, most people do not care about the direction of something, but we must be courteous to a minority (but a significant minority) who do care.

Because if theytook the decision to move the direction it would be to make the building better, to organise something different. Changing the direction of a toilet in case you offend someone is stupid. I could get offended at there being a cross to signify Christianty there. Would they change that? No.

Your last statement is completely pointless aswell, "What if" is such a leaky statement, because it is way too hypothetical, the fact is people who are not muslim and are not involved in the Olympic stadium building do not care about this, and the only reason they would care is to make a point about something that is merely a formality.

People care, because it is so stupid. Because the main religion in England is NOT Islam, they wouldn't want to seem like they were against that religion. Everything is turned into something about race or religion nowadays. It's a direction! Soon houses won't be able to be built that way. There is just no need in this.

You obviously don't think it's that big of a deal if they face toward Mecca, so why is it a big deal if they don't? If they do change it, then is it really going to matter to anyone who isn't Muslim? Yeah, I don't think so. The people who do want it changed, whoever they are, want it to be changed because they understand the significance of Mecca, even if you don't, not because it's a stupid whim of theirs. I don't get offended by most things as a Muslim, but I find it funny that people will say others get offended easily and then respond in the same manner.

I don't even know what direction Mecca is to care. The point is there is no need insomething stupid like this. I've said it once and I'll say it again - it's a direction. I understand the history behind Mecca and why people go on Hajj there, but since when is there a rule you can't pee while facing it? I'd say it was a stupid whim of theres, if any Muslim complains about it. It's just the stupid English turning everything.

 

[The Snake]

I'm sick of having views forced down my throat from people who do believe in god. Because apparently it's okay to believe in him buy it's not okay not to? Sam made an interesting point in another thread before, about how Athiests were always so scared of offending people they'd write at the top of a post "No offence to be taken", yet when Christians/Muslims wrote a post all about God, they didn't write anything of the nature. My point basically being, if people can say God exists so often, I can say he doesn't.

The irony is you do it just as bad, I believe it is plausible for God to exist, which is just as plausible as a God not existing - I will not make a smarmy comment about it like "Its fake" or "Religion is a fairy tale" debating is not about oneupsmanship you aren't trying to assert you are better than the person, you are trying to justify your belief to people. Atheists are never scared about offending people, they just chuck in a token apology almost to say "I'll offend you, but because I chuck in this line, don't be too hard on me". Religious people can be just as bad, I've had experiences with both, and I've always given them my time and listened to what all sides want to say on the issue, rather than being dismissive like a lot of people are. If you think I am attacking atheists you are far from the truth in fact this is an attack on people who aim to unnecessarily provoke the other side with ridiculous statements backed up with no evidence at all.

Because if they took the decision to move the direction it would be to make the building better, to organise something different. Changing the direction of a toilet in case you offend someone is stupid. I could get offended at there being a cross to signify Christianty there. Would they change that? No.

But is there a large minority of people who will be offended by this? They are changing a tiny thing, it is not affecting your life in any way shape or form and it is not negatively affecting anyone. You're simply nitpicking because religion still exists in some corners of the world, and it would seem all atheists will not stop whining and complaining until they abolish the worship of divinity.

People care, because it is so stupid. Because the main religion in England is NOT Islam, they wouldn't want to seem like they were against that religion. Everything is turned into something about race or religion nowadays. It's a direction! Soon houses won't be able to be built that way. There is just no need in this.

It's the 2nd most popular religion in the UK, not to mention I am sure a lot of muslims will come to the UK to watch the Olympics, it is an international event. The Chinese Olympic Board (Not sure on their official title) decided not to serve dog at Olympic Venues and they reccomended all restaurants to stop serving the meal throughout the Olympics - Because they are courteous to what the moral standing of other people are on this issue, a lot of people have domesticated dogs and it is often the butt of jokes about Chinese Culture. We are doing a similar thing. Can I also ask where the idea houses no longer being built this way comes from, or is it another anecdotal claim that you have made with no truth to it at all?

I don't even know what direction Mecca is to care. The point is there is no need insomething stupid like this. I've said it once and I'll say it again - it's a direction. I understand the history behind Mecca and why people go on Hajj there, but since when is there a rule you can't pee while facing it? I'd say it was a stupid whim of theres, if any Muslim complains about it. It's just the stupid English turning everything.

That last point is very "I don't care so it doesn't matter" based. I don't know where Mecca is relative to my house, but that is because I am not a practising Muslim or a strong geographer. If a good number of people would welcome this change I don't see why it is an issue, if a Muslim came to my house I would not serve non Halal meat to them, it's just common courtesy, and I would do the same if you came to my house and there were beliefs you had that you would like to be honoured, I would do my best to make people welcome at my house. People are visiting this country and the country is doing it's best to make sure that they are welcome and that as many customs as possible are being adhered to so that everyone has a great time at the Games. Not to mention this stadium will be used a lot in the future for other sports - And London has a lot of ethnic minorities so it will have good long term effects for those who do not want a toilet facing Mecca.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Atheists are never scared about offending people, they just chuck in a token apology almost to say "I'll offend you, but because I chuck in this line, don't be too hard on me".

This is by far the biggest load of crap I've ever read in my life. Of course we don't want to offend people. People probably will get offended, if we post a logical reason as to why he can't exist, to counter one that says he can. In fact people have complained of the forum equaivalent of flaming when an athiest does this. We write no offence to stop people saying that sort of shit.

Religious people can be just as bad, I've had experiences with both, and I've always given them my time and listened to what all sides want to say on the issue, rather than being dismissive like a lot of people are. If you think I am attacking atheists you are far from the truth in fact this is an attack on people who aim to unnecessarily provoke the other side with ridiculous statements backed up with no evidence at all.

Like the fact God exists, in which there is no proof yet millions of people endlessly say is true? The people who say they believe it but it doesn't necessarily make it true, I have no problem with. The people who will say all this nonsense and not look any other way I don't like. for me, I don't believe in God, but if proof becomes available that he does exist, I'll change my mind.

But is there a large minority of people who will be offended by this? They are changing a tiny thing, it is not affecting your life in any way shape or form and it is not negatively affecting anyone. You're simply nitpicking because religion still exists in some corners of the world, and it would seem all atheists will not stop whining and complaining until they abolish the worship of divinity.

I don't CARE people believe in God, in the slightest. It just doesn't affect me. But I will comment when people have such stupid demands, and then wonder why a growing number of people are against religion.

It's the 2nd most popular religion in the UK, not to mention I am sure a lot of muslims will come to the UK to watch the Olympics, it is an international event. The Chinese Olympic Board (Not sure on their official title) decided not to serve dog at Olympic Venues and they reccomended all restaurants to stop serving the meal throughout the Olympics - Because they are courteous to what the moral standing of other people are on this issue, a lot of people have domesticated dogs and it is often the butt of jokes about Chinese Culture. We are doing a similar thing.

They should still have served it. But that is the least of what the Chinese did wrong in those games. It's part of Chinese culture, and people were going to China. What did they exect, China to be a mini version of their country?

Can I also ask where the idea houses no longer being built this way comes from, or is it another anecdotal claim that you have made with no truth to it at all?

I don't actually think I said it was true, or that it was happening at all actually. If you read my post, I said at some point this probably will become an issue.

That last point is very "I don't care so it doesn't matter" based. I don't know where Mecca is relative to my house, but that is because I am not a practising Muslim or a strong geographer. If a good number of people would welcome this change I don't see why it is an issue, if a Muslim came to my house I would not serve non Halal meat to them, it's just common courtesy, and I would do the same if you came to my house and there were beliefs you had that you would like to be honoured, I would do my best to make people welcome at my house. People are visiting this country and the country is doing it's best to make sure that they are welcome and that as many customs as possible are being adhered to so that everyone has a great time at the Games. Not to mention this stadium will be used a lot in the future for other sports - And London has a lot of ethnic minorities so it will have good long term effects for those who do not want a toilet facing Mecca.

I don't think anyone believes people will not attend because of the direction a toilet is. I honestly never realised how far people go for religion though. It really is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

 

[The Snake]

This is by far the biggest load of crap I've ever read in my life. Of course we don't want to offend people. People probably will get offended, if we post a logical reason as to why he can't exist, to counter one that says he can. In fact people have complained of the forum equaivalent of flaming when an athiest does this. We write no offence to stop people saying that sort of shit.

I didn't say you want to offend people, but I was saying that the way they speak they know it will offend people, religious people are also bound to do the same, it's a problem with these sort of divides often it can descend into "cheap shots" to try and defeat the other person. I have met plenty of nice atheists, I'm sure you are one of them, but the sensitivity of the divide can often lead to people making unnecessary jibes at the other side.

Like the fact God exists, in which there is no proof yet millions of people endlessly say is true? The people who say they believe it but it doesn't necessarily make it true, I have no problem with. The people who will say all this nonsense and not look any other way I don't like. for me, I don't believe in God, but if proof becomes available that he does exist, I'll change my mind.

But there is no proof God does not exist, so it is just a belief, one would hope that everyone realises that they are merely talking about beliefs as opposed to facts. The only way God can exist is through the notion of postulation, but even then the argument breaks down.

I don't CARE people believe in God, in the slightest. It just doesn't affect me. But I will comment when people have such stupid demands, and then wonder why a growing number of people are against religion.

Did the muslim people demand this? Or was it the British being careful to not offend them in the case of a complaint? I think you're jumping the gun to say it was there demand, the only place it is demanded is in their teachings, I'm sure the muslims would have been perfectly fine with a portaloo or something at the games, but because the stadium must look immaculate, they decided to cater for all people. I'm not quite sure who your qualm should be with here tbh, the Olympic commitee are the only people who can sanction it, so isn't it there fault?

They should still have served it. But that is the least of what the Chinese did wrong in those games. It's part of Chinese culture, and people were going to China. What did they exect, China to be a mini version of their country?

ASBOs and Binge Drinking are 2 parts of our culture that a lot of young teenagers are very proud, it is also well documented that we have these problems, shall we just continue with this because it's part of our culture? I realise that this is an extreme example but I think the point still stands, there are parts of every culture we would not introduce others to, it was a decision made by the Chinese Olympic Board to not serve it.

(Just for the record I am not saying the Chinese should be ashamed of serving Dog in their country in the way we should be ashamed of our youth culture).

I don't actually think I said it was true, or that it was happening at all actually. If you read my post, I said at some point this probably will become an issue.

But why will it become an issue? I'm sure a HUGE percent of houses are built with toilets away from Mecca out of luck, it's not as if we are changing the direction of every toilet on the planet. I'm sure this will never arise unless the area has a strong muslim population, even then I'm sure 75% of houses will not be facing Mecca anyway - So the builders would not change anything.

I don't think anyone believes people will not attend because of the direction a toilet is. I honestly never realised how far people go for religion though. It really is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

I didn't say that, but I said we are doing it to make them feel welcome, it's a small way in saying "we are thinking about you", as I said previously there was not a muslim uproar it seems that the Olymic Board decided they wanted to change something to help a minority, nothing wrong with that IMO, we all do little things to make people welcome into our own home, this is just something on a grander scale.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

Well, maybe Becca has a point because we Northern folk don't like change.

You have towns like Bradford that had mass immegration in the 60s(fair play) and they didnt demand everything, they were just happy be here.

30 Years on and now the British people are tiptoeing around all the different races and creeds that have spriung up in case any of them get offended, in some cases, being "racist" towards the white population. I used to get the shit kicked out of me in school by Asian kids, yet I was always the one excluded whilst the Asian lot got away scott free, due to the teachers being afraid of being tarred with the racist brush.

Or the fact we have quite a huge chunk of immegrants(legal and illegal) who cannot speak a word of Queen's English, apart from the words "benefits". If you moved to Germany, would you continue to disrespect the local population and speak English everywhere you went? Or would you get up off your arse and make the effort to learn the lingo. Granted, im not great at French, German or Spanish, yet I know enough to be polite and courteous to the locals, ie saying please and thank you in thier native tongue etc.


As for the toilets not facing Mecca, surely if the door is facing the other way, every person who uses it is essential throwing a Moon at Mecca?

 

[HBK-aholic]

I didn't say you want to offend people, but I was saying that the way they speak they know it will offend people, religious people are also bound to do the same, it's a problem with these sort of divides often it can descend into "cheap shots" to try and defeat the other person. I have met plenty of nice atheists, I'm sure you are one of them, but the sensitivity of the divide can often lead to people making unnecessary jibes at the other side.

So people should stop expressing their views in the chance it might offend someone? Everything will offen someone if they let it.

But there is no proof God does not exist, so it is just a belief, one would hope that everyone realises that they are merely talking about beliefs as opposed to facts. The only way God can exist is through the notion of postulation, but even then the argument breaks down.

The bit in bold - my point. You would very much hope that's the case. But I go to a Catholic college, so trust me, it's not.

Did the muslim people demand this? Or was it the British being careful to not offend them in the case of a complaint? I think you're jumping the gun to say it was there demand, the only place it is demanded is in their teachings, I'm sure the muslims would have been perfectly fine with a portaloo or something at the games, but because the stadium must look immaculate, they decided to cater for all people. I'm not quite sure who your qualm should be with here tbh, the Olympic commitee are the only people who can sanction it, so isn't it there fault?

*Directs you to this post*

I understand the history behind Mecca and why people go on Hajj there, but since when is there a rule you can't pee while facing it? I'd say it was a stupid whim of theres, if any Muslim complains about it. It's just the stupid English turning everything.

Now that being said, I've recently learnt there are some Muslims complaining about it. So yeah, it is just a silly whim of theres as well as the stupid Brits trying to please everyone and tip-toeing around everyone else due to the growing number of shit people say is racism.

ASBOs and Binge Drinking are 2 parts of our culture that a lot of young teenagers are very proud, it is also well documented that we have these problems, shall we just continue with this because it's part of our culture? I realise that this is an extreme example but I think the point still stands, there are parts of every culture we would not introduce others to, it was a decision made by the Chinese Olympic Board to not serve it.

They're completely different things. Getting an ASBO is a crime. I'm sure there were still crimes in China during the olympics, were they not? But the fact they stopped serving one of their meals because a British/American person would be there is stupid. They don't have to eat it.

But why will it become an issue? I'm sure a HUGE percent of houses are built with toilets away from Mecca out of luck, it's not as if we are changing the direction of every toilet on the planet. I'm sure this will never arise unless the area has a strong muslim population, even then I'm sure 75% of houses will not be facing Mecca anyway - So the builders would not change anything.

And it's the reason they'd be doing it which would annoy people. It sounds so stupid. And they need to stop trying with all this stuff now.

I didn't say that, but I said we are doing it to make them feel welcome, it's a small way in saying "we are thinking about you", as I said previously there was not a muslim uproar it seems that the Olymic Board decided they wanted to change something to help a minority, nothing wrong with that IMO, we all do little things to make people welcome into our own home, this is just something on a grander scale.

There are 2 arguments here. The first being it's simply the Olympic board. In which case, they're complete idiots. As Polley said before, you cannot please everyone, and gthe fact they'd be doing something like that simply to stop peopel accusing them of racism or something similar is the stupidest thing I've heard. Because that's what they're worried about. It has nothing to do with wanting to be nice to people. It's to stop idiotic people who think Islam is a race calling the country racist.

Then there's the side where Muslims are complaining about the way our toilets face. If you don't want to use them - you can wet yourself. That sounds as stupid coming from me, as how stupid this command does. If the Qu'ran says you cannot pee facing Mecca, religion is even more controlling than I first thought. However, I know it doesn't say this as I asked a friend of mine who is a Muslim. she'd never even heard of this. So it's just people making shit up. And that's the bottom line.

 

[The Snake]

So people should stop expressing their views in the chance it might offend someone? Everything will offen someone if they let it.

Slightly miscontruing what I said, it is more people should express their views without an element of smarminess coming in at the end. Atheists with the "I don't want to believe in fairytale, I want cold hard fact" or religious people with "Yeah, but you don't have any faith anyway, so why should I even bother" - 95% of strong believers say these things, and it's a huge problem, most debates I have read and listened to online/in newspapers don't have these type of things, which is why I respect certain philosophers/thinkers, they tell you what they think and they allow you to decide what you want to take from it. I'm very much in the same position, I will tell people what I think, but not what they should think, however my strongest belief is you should never gain your belief from 1 source, I would rather spend my 70 or so years learning than believing, even if I don't find what I want, I still believe I will have been fulfilled. I sort of went off on a tangent there, but that's sort of my response to that.

The bit in bold - my point. You would very much hope that's the case. But I go to a Catholic college, so trust me, it's not.

This is really interesting actually, I am surrounded by atheists all the time, and I was one for a while, until I realise how naive I was being (Note "I", I am not referring to your beliefs in any way), because I had not considered any other views. Perhaps we are just both rebelling against what we are being told is right, because we want to do things our own way. Quite an interesting thing for me to mull over.

*Directs you to this post*


Now that being said, I've recently learnt there are some Muslims complaining about it. So yeah, it is just a silly whim of theres as well as the stupid Brits trying to please everyone and tip-toeing around everyone else due to the growing number of shit people say is racism.

I agree completely that we as a nation are overly PC, everything is all too official, I go through life not caring too much about what I am saying, I will tell people where I stand on an issue and I will never lie or play confidence tricks to be liked or to fit in, I find it very easy to be friends with people I disagree with, it makes my time with them more interesting.

Even if they are complaining, I do not believe that there is a problem with this, I do not believe that if we had refused then there would have been a court case over it or anything, I think the British being the British just did what they think is right, I'm not going to disagree, if it makes a few people happy, no matter who they are, then I am happy, it is not causing extreme distress to anyone. And if people wanted to go to the toilet in one facing away from Mecca (as you said in a prior post ) then they arent changing all of them, so your needs are also catered for.

They're completely different things. Getting an ASBO is a crime. I'm sure there were still crimes in China during the olympics, were they not? But the fact they stopped serving one of their meals because a British/American person would be there is stupid. They don't have to eat it.

I said it was an extreme example, my point is more that sometimes it is just easier all round if we do what is right all round, I'm not the type of person who does this on an individual level, but I think we as a culture should make an effort to welcome other cultures during an international event, every nation has stereotypes it is not proud of, if people show up to our country and see we are all posh snobs or drunk hooligans then it does not leave a good mark on our county. An international event should try and be as international as possible, it should try and create a feeling that everybody is happy with, an impossible task it of course is, but that must be the aim, if there is a part that could come under a lot of scrutiny, it is best to just not do it.

And it's the reason they'd be doing it which would annoy people. It sounds so stupid. And they need to stop trying with all this stuff now.

Could not quite understand what was meant here, it wasn't the crux of my argument, so I'll just leave this out.

There are 2 arguments here. The first being it's simply the Olympic board. In which case, they're complete idiots. As Polley said before, you cannot please everyone, and gthe fact they'd be doing something like that simply to stop peopel accusing them of racism or something similar is the stupidest thing I've heard. Because that's what they're worried about. It has nothing to do with wanting to be nice to people. It's to stop idiotic people who think Islam is a race calling the country racist.

I agree that the Olympic Board of this country are idiots, but for wholly different reasons, our closing ceremony sucked and I have no confidence the Olympics will be a success. And I think (to the toilets argument) an element is being courteous, not nice, but just doing it because it is essentially an easy thing to do and could please a small minority of people. We do not want to be seen as a country who is just completely antireligious, because we have a lot of Muslims, Hindus and of course Christians, it is not as if they are asking everyone to pray multiple times during the day or to not eat certain types of meat or anything, it is nothing more than a formality.

Then there's the side where Muslims are complaining about the way our toilets face. If you don't want to use them - you can wet yourself. That sounds as stupid coming from me, as how stupid this command does. If the Qu'ran says you cannot pee facing Mecca, religion is even more controlling than I first thought. However, I know it doesn't say this as I asked a friend of mine who is a Muslim. she'd never even heard of this. So it's just people making shit up. And that's the bottom line.

I had heard of this before, and I know a few muslims who do follow this type of thing, I'm good friends with them, I fully understand that it is just a cultural rule they have to conform to, just as we all have similar things we conform to in our own social groups, you can deduce this down to things like the clothes we wear and the way we speak, the way these people have been brought up is about respecting their religion, just as it is for everyone (the way we are brought up is to do certain things).

 

[HBK-aholic]

Slightly miscontruing what I said, it is more people should express their views without an element of smarminess coming in at the end. Atheists with the "I don't want to believe in fairytale, I want cold hard fact" or religious people with "Yeah, but you don't have any faith anyway, so why should I even bother" - 95% of strong believers say these things, and it's a huge problem, most debates I have read and listened to online/in newspapers don't have these type of things, which is why I respect certain philosophers/thinkers, they tell you what they think and they allow you to decide what you want to take from it. I'm very much in the same position, I will tell people what I think, but not what they should think, however my strongest belief is you should never gain your belief from 1 source, I would rather spend my 70 or so years learning than believing, even if I don't find what I want, I still believe I will have been fulfilled. I sort of went off on a tangent there, but that's sort of my response to that.

That was interesting to read. And I agree, people shouldn't tell you what to think. But at the same time, there's a fine line between saying your views, and forcing others to believe them. And people have different opinions on where that line lies. It's hard to standardise.

This is really interesting actually, I am surrounded by atheists all the time, and I was one for a while, until I realise how naive I was being (Note "I", I am not referring to your beliefs in any way), because I had not considered any other views. Perhaps we are just both rebelling against what we are being told is right, because we want to do things our own way. Quite an interesting thing for me to mull over.

Again, an interesting thought. But I disagree. Personally, anyway, I'm not an athiest to go against what is told. For a start, up until going to college religion hasn't ever been forced upon me. I went to a school which was mostly athiest, and none of my family believes in God. I don't believe in God, because I need proof for something in order to 100% believe it. And I see no proof of his existance. People are athiest/religious because it's what's best for them. Some people feel they need God in their life to help and guide them - it's perfectly fine for them to believe that.

I agree completely that we as a nation are overly PC, everything is all too official, I go through life not caring too much about what I am saying, I will tell people where I stand on an issue and I will never lie or play confidence tricks to be liked or to fit in, I find it very easy to be friends with people I disagree with, it makes my time with them more interesting.

I agree. That's also what I'm like.

Even if they are complaining, I do not believe that there is a problem with this, I do not believe that if we had refused then there would have been a court case over it or anything, I think the British being the British just did what they think is right, I'm not going to disagree, if it makes a few people happy, no matter who they are, then I am happy, it is not causing extreme distress to anyone. And if people wanted to go to the toilet in one facing away from Mecca (as you said in a prior post ) then they arent changing all of them, so your needs are also catered for.

Lol, for the record, I was joking about that. I don't even know where Mecca is. But, the fact that Britain will purposely change something JUST to stop claims of racism or whatever else would be said, is stupid.

I said it was an extreme example, my point is more that sometimes it is just easier all round if we do what is right all round, I'm not the type of person who does this on an individual level, but I think we as a culture should make an effort to welcome other cultures during an international event, every nation has stereotypes it is not proud of, if people show up to our country and see we are all posh snobs or drunk hooligans then it does not leave a good mark on our county. An international event should try and be as international as possible, it should try and create a feeling that everybody is happy with, an impossible task it of course is, but that must be the aim, if there is a part that could come under a lot of scrutiny, it is best to just not do it.

Regarding China (And this is out of context with the Mecca example, as they're different things), we were going to their country. We should expect to put up with their customs, not the other way around. If dog is a regular on a Chinese menu, Brits should deal with that because the Chinese aren't forcing them to eat it or be there.

Could not quite understand what was meant here, it wasn't the crux of my argument, so I'll just leave this out.

Basically, I mean people find it stupider that Britain are focusing on this, rather than it being a custom in Islam.

I agree that the Olympic Board of this country are idiots, but for wholly different reasons, our closing ceremony sucked and I have no confidence the Olympics will be a success. And I think (to the toilets argument) an element is being courteous, not nice, but just doing it because it is essentially an easy thing to do and could please a small minority of people. We do not want to be seen as a country who is just completely antireligious, because we have a lot of Muslims, Hindus and of course Christians, it is not as if they are asking everyone to pray multiple times during the day or to not eat certain types of meat or anything, it is nothing more than a formality.

Of course we wouldn't be seen as Anti-religious, for the reason you just stated. We have millions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs as well as Christians in our country. If people are going to be stupid enough to call our country Anti-Religious they need to get a better education.

I had heard of this before, and I know a few muslims who do follow this type of thing, I'm good friends with them, I fully understand that it is just a cultural rule they have to conform to, just as we all have similar things we conform to in our own social groups, you can deduce this down to things like the clothes we wear and the way we speak, the way these people have been brought up is about respecting their religion, just as it is for everyone (the way we are brought up is to do certain things).

Most things we do in society is stupid too. Fashion, for example. Ugg boots are currently in fashion over here, every girl owning a pair. I wouldn't go over to China/Pakistan or another foreign country and expect them to seel them there. Slightly different example, but I'm sure you get where I'm coming from.

It also obviously isn't a requirement of the religion. So I don't see the need for the big fuss.

 

[Shocky]

My whole point is on this issue, would the Saudi's or Iranian, or insert random Islamic nation treat the rest of the world with the same kindness and openness that the West gives to them. Could the Olympics be held in Riyadh or Tehran and the same courtesy the West is trying to give the Islamic world be reciprocated by venues and items designed with Christianity or Judaism in mind? I highly doubt it. I hate to throw a huge blanket over the entire situation or an entire group of people, but I don't think it works both ways.

Could a Saudi Olympic games include Olympic Swimmers or Gymnastic events for females that don't require them wearing full body garb? I doubt it.

The problem is, the Western Liberal Media is afraid to challenge Islam. The Western Media has tried the last 7 years to portray Islam as the victim in the current world. We grant courtesies like making toilets that don't face Mecca, but where does it end? How come Western Newspapers don't publish pictures of Muhammad, or run articles questioning the legitimacy of that relgion, Fear. I think alot of what is going on is run by fear. A fear that if you don't respect a religion, that some extremist from said religion is going to make sure you respect them threw fear.

I have no problem with toilets facing Mecca. But where does it end? The Olympics are about celebrating a coming together of nations, not a coming together of religions. The Olympics are about showing your Nation off to the rest of the world, not catering to the whim of one group that has a different lifestyle then that of your nation.

 

[The Snake]

That was interesting to read. And I agree, people shouldn't tell you what to think. But at the same time, there's a fine line between saying your views, and forcing others to believe them. And people have different opinions on where that line lies. It's hard to standardise.

Agreed.

Again, an interesting thought. But I disagree. Personally, anyway, I'm not an athiest to go against what is told. For a start, up until going to college religion hasn't ever been forced upon me. I went to a school which was mostly athiest, and none of my family believes in God. I don't believe in God, because I need proof for something in order to 100% believe it. And I see no proof of his existance. People are athiest/religious because it's what's best for them. Some people feel they need God in their life to help and guide them - it's perfectly fine for them to believe that.

Could you ever truly tell me 100% that God does not exist? I think that is something that atheists tend to say a lot, God can't be proved, so he doesn't exist - if it can be said one way, you can certainly say it another way. I think I am very areligious, I refuse to give in to either side until I make my own conclusion, evidence is only a small factor for me, I think the right thing is to do what you believe, whilst making sure you could answer any question thrown at you about your beliefs.

I agree. That's also what I'm like.

Right Back Atcha

Lol, for the record, I was joking about that. I don't even know where Mecca is. But, the fact that Britain will purposely change something JUST to stop claims of racism or whatever else would be said, is stupid.

I also said this in a jokey way. You've fallen into your own trap here and called it racism, when it is more antireligion they are scared about seeing. I think they would do it for a lot of things though, I think we have to be conscious that there are extremists who are looking for anything to criticize, but that goes for anyone, a famous atheist known as Richard Dawkins is similar, he will just blurt on at you if the hint of religion is mentioned as true, extremists are not pleasant people in my opinion, I think singling them out to religion is quite unfair, we live in an age where we have to be careful (but certainly not withdrawn), whether we want to or not.

I think the British are just sort of making sure it goes without a hitch, China/Tibet was labelled as a problem before the Olympics, but they did everything they could to make sure the Olympics as a phenomenon did not suffer, it is London's duty to make sure that it all goes smoothly, even if the chances are remote of something happening in this case, the cliche says it is better to be safe than sorry, I think that is what we are doing.

Regarding China (And this is out of context with the Mecca example, as they're different things), we were going to their country. We should expect to put up with their customs, not the other way around. If dog is a regular on a Chinese menu, Brits should deal with that because the Chinese aren't forcing them to eat it or be there.

It was the Olympics though, the city becomes an international haven, but with it being in China there would have been an oriental feel. I think the point was that many of us have pet dogs and such over here, it was the idea of the Chinese just to stop anything that can create controversy, safe than sorry again really, this is again something that does not bother me, but it could bother some other people, I'd say just avoid problems before they become anything major.

Basically, I mean people find it stupider that Britain are focusing on this, rather than it being a custom in Islam.

I do not know how many people who are practising Muslims do this, so it is hard for me to comment, I know some that do and some that don't, we aren't living in Mumbai or Calcutta, so our knowledge of those areas is very much what we have gathered from TV/Internet/Newspapers etc. I mention these because obviously it is not just people from England who will be going to the Olympics, so I expect a lot of people from abroad to be here.

Of course we wouldn't be seen as Anti-religious, for the reason you just stated. We have millions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs as well as Christians in our country. If people are going to be stupid enough to call our country Anti-Religious they need to get a better education.

Perhaps I worded that wrong, maybe more along the lines of uncourteous to minorities would be better, I agree that we should not knock down the London Eye and replace it with a Mosque, but I think small changes that can be made should be done, it is less hassle in the long run.

Most things we do in society is stupid too. Fashion, for example. Ugg boots are currently in fashion over here, every girl owning a pair. I wouldn't go over to China/Pakistan or another foreign country and expect them to seel them there. Slightly different example, but I'm sure you get where I'm coming from.

It also obviously isn't a requirement of the religion. So I don't see the need for the big fuss.

Never heard of "Ugg Boots" before, but googling them I do see a lot of girls wearing them (By "googling" I mean the search engine and not like staring at them from a corner). Further into this point, what about being a vegan and going to a country where as good as everywhere served meat/dairy?, I'm sure your memories would not be fond having to walk miles to find something to eat. Again it is slightly different, but I think that it is a case of us wanting everyone to be happy about everything that we do at the Olympics.

I think this is an isolated case of minorites requesting for something to be changed, as I have said many times, it is such a small thing, pretty amazing this much debate has gone into it, I am surprised that if this is changing then other minorities are not asking for tweeks to be made for their cultural minority. I think it is good that a whole Pandora's box of idea's have not followed this, as I agree if it got out of control I would be pissed off a little, theoretically, we have to allow Rasta's to smoke Cannabis on the Olympic Grounds because it is part of their belief system? I think isolated this is fine, if the doors of Britain start to be knocked on for LOADS of changes I would change my stance, but for now, it is only 1 case, and I am happy with how it is going.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Agreed.

Could you ever truly tell me 100% that God does not exist? I think that is something that atheists tend to say a lot, God can't be proved, so he doesn't exist - if it can be said one way, you can certainly say it another way.

The idea of there being a god goes against many laws of Science for a start. I mean, all seeing and all powerful? I suppose you have a point in saying it can't be 100% proven he doesn't. But when you look at it, it proves to me that he doesn't, and the evidence in favour of him not existing heavily outweighs the evidence that he does.

I think I am very areligious, I refuse to give in to either side until I make my own conclusion, evidence is only a small factor for me, I think the right thing is to do what you believe, whilst making sure you could answer any question thrown at you about your beliefs.

Evidence is a big factor for me. I need evidence for something to believe it. I agree people should just do what they believe though. Most of the important people in my life all believe in God, and think it's helped them. If that's so, I have no problem with them believing it.

I also said this in a jokey way. You've fallen into your own trap here and called it racism, when it is more antireligion they are scared about seeing.

I wasn't calling it racism. I was saying that's what other people would say.

I think they would do it for a lot of things though, I think we have to be conscious that there are extremists who are looking for anything to criticize, but that goes for anyone, a famous atheist known as Richard Dawkins is similar, he will just blurt on at you if the hint of religion is mentioned as true, extremists are not pleasant people in my opinion, I think singling them out to religion is quite unfair, we live in an age where we have to be careful (but certainly not withdrawn), whether we want to or not.

Pople like him are the reason there are bad views on people, athiests and religious people.

I think the British are just sort of making sure it goes without a hitch, China/Tibet was labelled as a problem before the Olympics, but they did everything they could to make sure the Olympics as a phenomenon did not suffer, it is London's duty to make sure that it all goes smoothly, even if the chances are remote of something happening in this case, the cliche says it is better to be safe than sorry, I think that is what we are doing.

But the fact that anyone would complain about the way a toilet faces is ridiculous. There wouldn't exactly be an international incident if they weren't. Britain need to get over this Political Correctness thing now.

It was the Olympics though, the city becomes an international haven, but with it being in China there would have been an oriental feel. I think the point was that many of us have pet dogs and such over here, it was the idea of the Chinese just to stop anything that can create controversy, safe than sorry again really, this is again something that does not bother me, but it could bother some other people, I'd say just avoid problems before they become anything major.

But it's not fair and this is not how it should be; it's a reflection of the way the world is going. It needs to be accepted that other cultures do different things to us, but that while we're in there country we accept them.

Perhaps I worded that wrong, maybe more along the lines of uncourteous to minorities would be better, I agree that we should not knock down the London Eye and replace it with a Mosque, but I think small changes that can be made should be done, it is less hassle in the long run.

I don't think there would have been hassle anyway. I mean, it's causing more hassle that they've done this just to stop something which wouldn't happen anyway. See: this debate.

Never heard of "Ugg Boots" before, but googling them I do see a lot of girls wearing them (By "googling" I mean the search engine and not like staring at them from a corner). Further into this point, what about being a vegan and going to a country where as good as everywhere served meat/dairy?, I'm sure your memories would not be fond having to walk miles to find something to eat. Again it is slightly different, but I think that it is a case of us wanting everyone to be happy about everything that we do at the Olympics.

Would you go to a country that served only meat and dairy if you were a vegan? Are there any countries who actually do this? There is always an option which is for vegans.

I think this is an isolated case of minorites requesting for something to be changed, as I have said many times, it is such a small thing, pretty amazing this much debate has gone into it, I am surprised that if this is changing then other minorities are not asking for tweeks to be made for their cultural minority. I think it is good that a whole Pandora's box of idea's have not followed this, as I agree if it got out of control I would be pissed off a little, theoretically, we have to allow Rasta's to smoke Cannabis on the Olympic Grounds because it is part of their belief system? I think isolated this is fine, if the doors of Britain start to be knocked on for LOADS of changes I would change my stance, but for now, it is only 1 case, and I am happy with how it is going.

For now. The point is things shouldn't even have to get this far.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

The idea of there being a god goes against many laws of Science for a start. I mean, all seeing and all powerful? I suppose you have a point in saying it can't be 100% proven he doesn't. But when you look at it, it proves to me that he doesn't, and the evidence in favour of him not existing heavily outweighs the evidence that he does.

You be surprised how much science is all thoery, especially all the black hole and particle stuff. Im not yes there is a God, but im not saying there isnt either.

Belief comes from the heart, if following moral codes and ethics allows them to lead a better life WITHOUT forcing thier will on other people, so be it.

Its when one religion demands more than other countries/religioins, thats when it goes to shit.

America hates communism, yet in a TRUE communist state everyone is more or less equal. Black, white, Jew, Christian, you are all considered equal according to Marx