TNA Gambling BIG For New York

[ABMorales787]

TNA is set to run three shows at the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City this summer. A source says that the company is paying a total of $300,000 to the venue in rent and production cost for the shows, which will take place in June, July, and August. The source noted that this is a possible move in order to impress Spike TV, which is headquartered in New York and has yet to come to a new agreement with the company. It isn’t known whether Spike is paying any of the bill, though it is believed that it was TNA management that negotiated the deal.

This is currently just simple speculation and rumors. But if it's true, that's quite the expense for what might be a series of Impact Wrestling tapings in the Hammerstein Ballroom. Is that worth it? It may be a big turn out and big feel for the shows which might also help ratings. But it's still quite a gamble.

I just don't see it as worth it. I feel they'd be better off going back to Poughkeepsie where they taped Old School even if it wouldn't go past 1500 people. It's still a good feel out of Orlando from what I believe.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'd be interested to know how much a regular taping costs. If this is a big jump it's quite the gamble, but for all we know this could be about the same as usual. Either way, this very well may be a way to try and get Spike to approve with the WWE TV deal looming. Being thrown off Spike could be BIG trouble for TNA as that's the only thing keeping them from being a glorified indy at this point.

 

[Papa Pillman]

A report came out from PWInsider that contradicts the original prowrestling.net report. The PWInsider story apparently says that the $300,000 price originally reported is not accurate. It claims that people who have left TNA or are no longer in power are pushing false information.

It also says that some people were actually pushing Dixie Carter to run Slammiversary in New York City but they ended up going with Texas.

With that in mind though, if Destination-X is planned to be an Impact special in the month of July once again this year then the Hammerstein would be a perfect setting.

As for the $300,000 price tag, when TNA was struggling to maintain its road schedule last year due to the cost, there were stories saying that each taping was costing the company a total up to in the $800,000 range for the more expensive venues. That cost supposedly included all expenses- building rental, production set-up, and talent payments including travel/lodging. If that's true and we take into account that several high priced talents that were working for the company for many of those tapings like Hogan, Sting, AJ, etc. are no longer drawing checks from TNA which surely drives down talent expenses then the $300,000 number for building rental and production costs that was thrown out there as part of this initial report doesn't seem out of line at all.

I do have to wonder what portion of that amount would be the fee for the building. ROH runs the venue several times a year with no reported financial issues.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Not even joking here, but have heard second hand that Wade Keller noted on his radio call-in thingermajig that the reason for the spiked fee is because Hammerstein officials aren't too open to anyone taping wrestling in the venue outside of ROH, because while TNA have ran there before they aren't regular customers and the Hammerstein nowadays is pretty much synonymous with ROH and its big events. Management weren't opposed to letting them do it but only at a cost, as ROH only pay $15,000 to rent out the venue for a show. Whereas TNA are paying close to $100,000 per night, but that figure is apparently inaccurate but it isn't including talent fees.

What I also found interesting was if you do the mathematics, there is little chance of this being profitable. A ticket for a TNA live event costs between $25 and $60, the Hammerstein when full, with no production equipment surrounding it or blocking seats for fans, can hold 2,600 people. If TNA are doing three shows and lets say the average ticket costs $40, they'll get a return of $104,000 a night, which means they could break even, but that's only if they sell it out something they haven't been able to do in America in quite awhile.

On top of that you need to include talent fees and all that the add-ons, which will probably take away any profit they would make off ticket sales. Then take into consideration that the last time they ran the Hammerstein Ballroom, in 2010, just after Hogan arrived - they couldn't sell it out. TNA are having issues selling out arenas for their top PPV's so what would be the big ploy to pull people into the Hammerstein?

If they run it and make a success of it, good for them, it's my personal favorite arena in wrestling when packed, which is why I'm looking forward to War of the Worlds in May so much considering that event is totally sold-out. Could TNA sell it out? Three times in three months? Yeah, that's the big question. It is a gamble but considering they've gone into the final year of their TV deal which networks aren't suspect of doing, they might as well go for broke, considering if Spike were to drop TNA, they'd probably suffer the same fate as ECW.

 

[Rayne]

Three nights at the Hammerstein Ballroom for $300k, counting venue fees and production costs? That's not unreasonable at all. That isn't even big money, considering the market. That's $100k a night, in an arena capable of seating six to seven thousand in its professional wrestling configuration. TNA won't sell out all three nights without papering (sorry, guys), but they won't need to, and in the packed NYC professional wrestling market they'll pull a better crowd than their average- a vague, round, four thousand paid a night sounds reasonable. $30 average ticket prices (NYC market price, remember) and we're talking a win on the night before we even discuss merchandising.

$300,000 just sounds like a lot of money if you don't think about where it's going and how. It's not a lot of money at all; this isn't any kind of gamble or risk.

 

[MrHashasheen]

What I also found interesting was if you do the mathematics, there is little chance of this being profitable. A ticket for a TNA live event costs between $25 and $60, the Hammerstein when full, with no production equipment surrounding it or blocking seats for fans, can hold 2,600 people. If TNA are doing three shows and lets say the average ticket costs $40, they'll get a return of $104,000 a night, which means they could break even, but that's only if they sell it out something they haven't been able to do in America in quite awhile.

Three nights at the Hammerstein Ballroom for $300k, counting venue fees and production costs? That's not unreasonable at all. That isn't even big money, considering the market. That's $100k a night, in an arena capable of seating six to seven thousand in its professional wrestling configuration. TNA won't sell out all three nights without papering (sorry, guys), but they won't need to, and in the packed NYC professional wrestling market they'll pull a better crowd than their average- a vague, round, four thousand paid a night sounds reasonable. $30 average ticket prices (NYC market price, remember) and we're talking a win on the night before we even discuss merchandising.

One of you is wrong on this, ignoring anything else you might have said. Feel free to fight to the death for supremacy.

 

[Rayne]

One of you is wrong on this, ignoring anything else you might have said. Feel free to fight to the death for supremacy.

http://www.mcstudios.com/the-hammerstein/

The Hammerstein lists their concert capacity at 3,500, which is with a large stage set up, blocking almost half of the seats.

 

[Pedigree1]

I will give TNA this much credit,at least they are doing whatever it takes!! But if the Hammerstein Ballroom,capacity is around 3,500 or so.. As some people have attested too,3500 times ($40 dollars a ticket),is around 105,000 for the Gate. And that means TNA has to sell the venue out,something they haven't done in quite a while.

This of course they will break even maybe. I have no idea what it cost to rent out a venue plus talent set-up,travel,hotel set-up,food expense etc.. Plus merch sales. If the Hammerstein Ballroom,is strictly ROH, TNA might not be welcomed very much there. This is indeed a risky move,but TNA backs are against the wall here.. As far as I know they cant travel all the time,dont have a home venue,cant sell out arenas,and plus WWE is shopping for a home network and Spike is very interested in them.

This could very well be the last ditch effort on TNA's part..

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I have no idea what the validity of these numbers is — there were initial reports of the $300K, followed immediately by reports that "ex-TNA" employees were providing false information to disparage the company, so naturally, I'm taking everything with a dollar sign attached to it (or inferred) with a grain of salt about the size of a small sedan.

What I do know, however, is that I will undoubtedly be in attendance for every single one of these events, be it a one-off or series of tapings, and I'll be there with a good friend of mine as well, so TNA can count on, at the very least, two sales already complete.

I've been begging them to come back to NYC or the NYC area for a long time now. My very first TNA live event was out of Webster Hall way back in like 2007, and I was in attendance for Hard Justice out of New Jersey back in 2009 as well, and the turn out for that show was incredible.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

http://www.mcstudios.com/the-hammerstein/

The Hammerstein lists their concert capacity at 3,500, which is with a large stage set up, blocking almost half of the seats.

That's for a non-wrestling event. You're not including the ring, the guard rails, or the aisle. I'll put it this way, both ECW One Night Stands were sold-out, they both drew 2,500 people, 2,600 is when you shorten the aisle and move the ring more toward the stage. You're hearing this from the guy who follows the company that runs the Hammerstein four times a year.

 

[Rayne]

That's for a non-wrestling event. You're not including the ring, the guard rails, or the aisle. I'll put it this way, both ECW One Night Stands were sold-out, they both drew 2,500 people, 2,600 is when you shorten the aisle and move the ring more toward the stage. You're hearing this from the guy who follows the company that runs the Hammerstein four times a year.

That's great and all, but the guard rails and ring take up hardly any space compared to the lighting, stage, and sound rig for a concert. (Yes, professional wrestling companies have those too, and they're largely located above where people sit, as opposed to in front where a concert would locate them, since the focus on professional wrestling is on the visual and not the auditory. Also- concerts have guard rails.) Wrestling promoters have a very tried and true reputation spanning many decades for calling their events 'sell-outs' by a variety of mechanisms, including limiting seating below what an arena is capable of filling.

We know you're an ROH fanboi, mention high school gymnasium and it's like whispering Bloody Mary in a mirror three times, but I don't think that makes you enough of an expert on arena seating to be able to tell the Hammerstein ballroom "no, your seating figures are wrong." You could, of course, look up ANY arena seating chart, for any arena pretty much in the world, and you'll see this in action. (Madison Square Garden's is the best example of this.) In a circular arena, the sound stage for a concert occupies at least 1/3 of the stadium. A boxing or wrestling ring takes up damn near nada.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Dragon Saga is actually completely correct on this. The most that you can set-up the Hammerstein to sit for wrestling is in the 2,500 range somewhere, give or take.

I'll put it this way, both ECW One Night Stands were sold-out, they both drew 2,500 people

This.
And that was not with a traditional WWE style production set-up, but rather one designed to mimic how ECW ran the venue.

Wrestling promoters have a very tried and true reputation spanning many decades for calling their events 'sell-outs' by a variety of mechanisms, including limiting seating below what an arena is capable of filling.

Which is why when most companies play Hammerstein they set it up to hold more like 1,400 versus the 2,500 range that's possible so they can report near sell-outs, despite having the option to present a configuration giving them about a thousand to 1,200 more seats(but ABSOLUTELY NO MORE than that). WWE didn't need ploys to make the Hammerstein look full, they set it up about as big as possible and still turned away hundreds of fans, so the 2,500 they packed in like sardines are a good representation of what the building can support.

If a company knows that they could struggle to hit the thousand number though, then playing the Grand Ballroom is probably the wiser move when you play the Hammerstein. ROH did that for a TV taping last year, and it may end up being a wiser strategy for TNA as well.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

That's great and all, but the guard rails and ring take up hardly any space compared to the lighting, stage, and sound rig for a concert. (Yes, professional wrestling companies have those too, and they're largely located above where people sit, as opposed to in front where a concert would locate them, since the focus on professional wrestling is on the visual and not the auditory. Also- concerts have guard rails.) Wrestling promoters have a very tried and true reputation spanning many decades for calling their events 'sell-outs' by a variety of mechanisms, including limiting seating below what an arena is capable of filling.

We know you're an ROH fanboi, mention high school gymnasium and it's like whispering Bloody Mary in a mirror three times, but I don't think that makes you enough of an expert on arena seating to be able to tell the Hammerstein ballroom "no, your seating figures are wrong." You could, of course, look up ANY arena seating chart, for any arena pretty much in the world, and you'll see this in action. (Madison Square Garden's is the best example of this.) In a circular arena, the sound stage for a concert occupies at least 1/3 of the stadium. A boxing or wrestling ring takes up damn near nada.

Once again, both ECW One Night Stands were sell-outs, both had 2,500 in attendance.

ROH A New Level in 2008, a sell-out, it had 2,600 in attendance, why the extra 100? Smaller set-up on the ground to allow more people in. Supercard of Honor last year, sold-out five weeks before the show, announced attendance? 2,600. War of the Worlds this coming May, sold-out two months in advance, estimated attendance expected? 2,600, the capacity of the arena for a wrestling event.

So I'll reiterate. The max attendance they can get is 2,600. This is a wrestling show, not Tiesto at the Hammerstein. They also have laws to adhere to.

 

[Rayne]

Once again, both ECW One Night Stands were sell-outs, both had 2,500 in attendance.

ROH A New Level in 2008, a sell-out, it had 2,600 in attendance, why the extra 100? Smaller set-up on the ground to allow more people in. Supercard of Honor last year, sold-out five weeks before the show, announced attendance? 2,600. War of the Worlds this coming May, sold-out two months in advance, estimated attendance expected? 2,600, the capacity of the arena for a wrestling event.

So I'll reiterate. The max attendance they can get is 2,600. This is a wrestling show, not Tiesto at the Hammerstein. They also have laws to adhere to.

Reiterating something mistaken does not make it correct. There's a guy in the prison right now who's doing a spectacular job of that.

Sell-out != Building Filled to Maximum Capacity.

Sell out means "we've sold all of the tickets we intended to for this event". This means you can configure an arena to hold far less than its maximum capacity, and declare the event a sell-out. This means that you can notice ticket sales aren't approaching what you thought they were, close off a balcony, and call it a 'sell-out'. This means you can release $1 tickets on Stub-Hub the morning of the event and call it a 'sell-out'.

Using the term sell out is about as useful as using the term fish.

Meanwhile, the company that operates the fucking arena declares they can fit 3,500 for concert seating, which- honest, please, I get like three or four minutes at a time out of my day to waste on this forum, so please don't make me waste it making a humorously insulting .png of arena seating charts for you- I'm going to take as more accurate than your "I really like ROH and I go to some of their shows".

"Sell-out" is the most misleading term in event promotion. It's not a description of how many seats have been sold, but a tool in which to first drive ticket sales (watch how many concerts have tickets that open up after they're 'sold out' the first time, that technique is a classic and I use it in my tournament promotion), and then to declare an event a 'success' after the fact. It has zero relation to the percentage of asses are sitting in the maximum potential amount of seats.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I've read that they drew a crowd of about 8000 in New York before. It's a big gamble and a big risk. If they're spending that much they're going to have to do something out of the ordinary to make a profit. We don't know the accuracy of these reports and we don't know what they're planning, but whatever it is, I'm sure it's something huge given that they're spending $300,000 on these events.

New York has a huge wrestling fanbase so making this a tremendous experience for the fans could be a great way of shaking up the rest of their live events. There were 2 recent live shows where there were title changes so this might be the direction they're trying to take with the live events.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Reiterating something mistaken does not make it correct. There's a guy in the prison right now who's doing a spectacular job of that.

Sell-out != Building Filled to Maximum Capacity.

Sell out means "we've sold all of the tickets we intended to for this event". This means you can configure an arena to hold far less than its maximum capacity, and declare the event a sell-out. This means that you can notice ticket sales aren't approaching what you thought they were, close off a balcony, and call it a 'sell-out'. This means you can release $1 tickets on Stub-Hub the morning of the event and call it a 'sell-out'.

Using the term sell out is about as useful as using the term fish.

Meanwhile, the company that operates the fucking arena declares they can fit 3,500 for concert seating, which- honest, please, I get like three or four minutes at a time out of my day to waste on this forum, so please don't make me waste it making a humorously insulting .png of arena seating charts for you- I'm going to take as more accurate than your "I really like ROH and I go to some of their shows".

"Sell-out" is the most misleading term in event promotion. It's not a description of how many seats have been sold, but a tool in which to first drive ticket sales (watch how many concerts have tickets that open up after they're 'sold out' the first time, that technique is a classic and I use it in my tournament promotion), and then to declare an event a 'success' after the fact. It has zero relation to the percentage of asses are sitting in the maximum potential amount of seats.

We can go back and forth here forever, you making, "ha-ha, ROH fan thinks he knows more than me", quips, me flat out telling you I know from having seen a company run the fucking venue a good 20 times in the last six years, but in the end It'll get us nowhere.

Lets remember this thread for when TNA run the shows and then we'll see if they sell them out - which in your opinion, no company can ever do because if someone isn't sitting on each toilet bowl then there is a seat available in the building which doesn't quantify "sold-out", despite the fact any event is determined as being sold-out once the ticket allocation is gone - and if they do, and if they bring in 2,600 or just below it, I'm right. And if they bring in more, you're right.

 

[mlp420]

A lot of guessing and speculating going on here, despite the fact that no one knows how much TNA is spending for Hammerstein, or even it's true they will tape there, what's going on with the Spike negotiations, etc. Just a whole bunch of stuff we have no idea about but everybody's projecting their personal feelings about the company into silly speculation and guessing about this stuff. I've never seen anything like this with a wrestling company.


I hope they do tape in the Northeast more often. In a perfect world they'd move Impact to NYC permanently. Impact in NYC every week would be something. As far as why they're doing this, I'll take my turn to speculate that it could be tied to TNA's reported interest in having a greater presence in the Northeast. Taz, Bully Ray, and Tommy Dreamer are said to be gaining influence backstage with John Gaburick, who runs the company. Those three saw first hand the growth of ECW based primarily in the Northeast, so it would make sense that they'd be the ones pushing TNA to do something like this.

The Spike TV stuff is a complete shot in the dark. Dixie said last week that they are actually negotiating with Spike for MORE TNA programming. So I doubt they had to scramble to run a show at a 2,000 seat building to save their TV deal when they just ran shows in England that drew 10,000.

Why ROH is coming up here, IDK. I can't take them seriously until the billion dollar company that owns them stops treating them like Jim Crockett Promotions and puts some money into the production quality and marketing they will need to actually get somewhere. The fact that SBG won't do it shows me they don't believe in that product as anything more than a nifty way to save money in those crap Saturday timeslots for their stations. Therefore, ROH is what it is, it's not going anywhere further. But I guess their fans can take pride when they run a supercard in NYC that outdraws TNA's house show in Piloogee Alabama.

 

[Rayne]

ROH is coming up here because Dragon Saga can't make an argument without saying "I used to be around ROH in some capacity which I'll never specify, so that means I clearly have the inside I found about (topic)." Beyond that they have almost no relevance to this conversation.

TDS, you're still hung up on the idea that "sell-out" and "maximum capacity for an event" are the same. Again, regardless of whatever 1337 inside infoz your going to allude to, the people who own the building say you are mistaken. But you helped ROH set up a ring once, so you clearly know better than the building management on this.

No, seriously, ECW ran a show there almost two decades ago and configured the arena for 2,600 people. That's relevant.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

ROH is coming up here because Dragon Saga can't make an argument without saying "I used to be around ROH in some capacity which I'll never specify, so that means I clearly have the inside I found about (topic)." Beyond that they have almost no relevance to this conversation.

TDS, you're still hung up on the idea that "sell-out" and "maximum capacity for an event" are the same. Again, regardless of whatever 1337 inside infoz your going to allude to, the people who own the building say you are mistaken. But you helped ROH set up a ring once, so you clearly know better than the building management on this.

No, seriously, ECW ran a show there almost two decades ago and configured the arena for 2,600 people. That's relevant.

I've never denied what I used to do for them. I used to write the match previews for the website when they were on HD Net, that's not "insider" info, none of what I'm saying is insider info. You can look all of this stuff up using this magical little thing called, "Google". IDK what drugs you take but you seriously need to cut them out of your life cause I think you may eventually go off the deep end.

There has never been any reported or confirmed figure above 2,600 for a wrestling show in the Hammerstein Ballroom. Any wrestling show reported as "sold-out" in the Hammerstein Ballroom has been to 2,600 people or below depending on ticket allocation. But like I said, time will tell who is right here.

 

[Rayne]

Will you welch out like you did with KB the last time you said "we'll just see?"

 

[Rayne]

Rayne, stop being dumb. You are wrong, the Hammerstein shows can only hold 2600 people. How do you even argue that ?

By a direct link to the webpage of the company that owns the Hammerstein Ballroom, which states their maximum capacity size for various events. You may have missed that earlier, but the link is still there. Hey, who knows. Maybe the owners of the building don't know how many people it could hold.

They list concert seating at 3,500; professional wrestling capacity isn't listed because the amount of boxing/wrestling promoters the Hammerstein needs to market to can be counted on one hand. For anyone who hasn't been to a concert in America in a sports arena sometime in the past thirty years (or other 'theatre in the round' setup, like the Hammerstein), one-third of the arena is blocked off to provide staging (not just the stage itself, but all the equipment that goes with it.) The best analogue people here would be familiar with would be the WWE's set. And, forgive me if ROH's Major Corporate Investors have made any earth shattering changes to the product over the past few years that I've missed, but to my knowledge they aren't carting around forty foot video screens, so the stage issue isn't exactly comparable.

That a company calls an event a "sell out" means they sold the maximum amount of tickets they had allotted to an event. It does not, and never has, meant that the building was filled to the maximum capacity it could handle for that class of event.

Good point- how do I even argue this? When I can link to the page of the actual building owners saying they can host more, I really shouldn't have to argue this at all. But an ECW event hosted 2,600 people there fifteen years ago. Such is the kind of argument you only find on professional wrestling forums.

 

[MrPlatano1989]

Having been to every NYC house show I know how great this can come across on TV! That alone will definitely make any price worth it! Its not about only trying to court Spike TV, its also about unleashing NYC's potential, potential that they have been building since they first came to NY in 2008!

 

[Adriang4]

We're talking about one thing.
You're talking about another.

Yes, the hammerstein holds more than 2600 people.
No, it doesn't hold more than that for a wrestling event.

 

[BaconBits]

The Hammerstein wrestling crowd, regardless of promotion, is extremely passionate. It's going to translate well on a taping. I'd bet the shows actually turn a small profit.

I don't see how TNA going to a venue that always plays well on TV and such is that big of a gamble.

 

[TDFG]

It's a gamble worth taking. TNA really needs to advertise & promote the product more, hopefully they do some promotion activities before the tapings.