"There Is No Such Thing As A Heel Or A Face In Today's Business" - John Cena

[therockiswwf]

I think he is right and wrong.

I think heels and faces still exist but the crowds don't care what you are, they just cheer whoever they want. Crowds now make their own decision, so I think the heel/face dynamic doesn't exist to the crowd. Crowds no longer see black and white, crowds see whatever they want. So while wrestlers still are faces/heels, crowds no longer see you as a face or heel, but more as 'I like or I don't'.

 

[The Crock]

While guys are labeled as "heels" or "faces," the fans really cheer whoever they want to cheer. As fans, we don't really care about alignment anymore, we cheer for the guys that entertain us. Fans have "smartened up" to the business, whether or not that's a good thing still remains to be seen. For example, I really like what The Miz does. He may be a heel, but I cheer for him. It doesn't matter to me and to be honest, it hasn't for a very long time. The face of the WWE, John Cena, gets the biggest mixed reactions I've ever seen. That in and of itself proves how much wrestling and its fans has changed.

I still separate heels and faces, but that doesn't determine who I cheer for. When I really think about it, I'd have to say that it's not heels and faces that have changed, but the fans. It used to be that you cheered a face and booed a heel, somewhere along the way we blurred that line and began to cheer for what we enjoyed. Some people love a good heel, so they cheer for him. Sometimes that can even change a person's alignment on-screen. Randy Orton was basically forced into a face turn by the fans because they were cheering him, regardless of who he was facing. That being said, I can't really determine if that's a good thing or a bad thing... but it's clear that as fans we have a great impact on the product.

To sum it all up, I somewhat agree with Cena, heels and faces don't really exist as they once did, but I don't believe it's because they've changed... it all comes down to the fans changing.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

John Cena is right in my opinion. Wrestlers have different traits and personalities and that attracts some fans, but not all of the fans. As Saga put it, it's a thing of personal preference. I cheered when CM Punk mentioned Harry Smith 'cause I like him and was wondering where he'd go next after being released.

The world isn't black and white, so why should wrestling be any different? That would be insulting my intelligence. We don't live in a dome governed by the WWE, I have freedom!

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

That was pretty fucking awesome "I should mail you my shorts because you are stuck in 1993".

Cena is right, he is who he is. Part of the audience boos (but wants him to turn heel, they also love heels, hmmm) and part of the audience cheers. He's not a tweener, tweeners are every smarks favorite character because they say ******** things and then win cleanly. Cena is who he is and gets cheers or boos.

You guys might say "he's clearly doing good guy things and still getting boos". Well, doesn't that say more about the audience? Bret Hart HATED how they booed babyfaces. It's because it's the "anti-hero" generation. On USA, a dude without a law degree, not doing things by the book, is a "babyface". The Joker was adored by audiences, he was an anti-hero. Some people boo him, some cheer. The audience isn't uniform. Instead of trying to get 100% of the audience to cheer, he is who he is and maybe 75% cheers, 25% boos, either way, 100% is making noise and is emotionally connected.

Cena knows more about wrestling and the psychology of wrestling than anyone on here. If you are arguing otherwise, get off your high horse and realize just how smart he is.

For people saying "he's right and wrong, there are babyfaces and heels, people just chose who they like" well that's kinda wrong too. Hogan could do back rakes and choke Iron Shiek and get babyface cheers. No doubt he was the babyface, but he was doing heelish things. A heel to one person is a face to another. Everything has changed. In ROH, Cena would be even more of a heel the more babyface things he did. The fans don't "chose who they like more" because that's no different than when I was 7 and I "chose" that I liked Sting more than Hollywood Hogan.

Heels have been cheered for years. Don't believe me, take a look at the original Four Horsemen. Flair, Anderson, Blanchard and Anderson (even when they had Barry) were being cheered about as loud as Dusty, The Road Warriors and Sting. The thing was, they made sure to stay in their character, ie. heel. The formula was still the same then. John Cena, as I previously said, is making these statements due, in my opinion, to the fact that he knows most people just generally don't like him. But heels have been cheered for years yet you never saw Flair come out and say "there's no heels or faces, just a bunch of guys being who they are." I know he's entitled to his opinion, which is fine, but hey, I think he's wrong on this one.

If people actually didn't like him, they wouldn't watch his segments and they wouldn't make noise. You are wrong, he is just "a heel" to those people.

Here's the deal.

Either people who boo him love to boo him because of his loud reactions, ability to draw, and lots of people watch his segments.

OR

The people who boo actually hate him, but because Cena's segments are highly rated and he's such a draw, they aren't a large enough group to even care about.

Looks to me like people love to boo him. Especially considering how many people have smiles on their faces when doing it. It's fun to duel as fans and to have fun.

 

[TheCrusher]

So, I have read on this thread that 80% of the fans hate Cena, that most hate him, and that EVERYONE hates him. None of these are true. These are statements made by people who figure they are the in crowd and most people think like they do.

Like BND pointed out, a solid majority still like him. There's a segment of the crowd that hates him, and it has grown to be a sizeable one. It could eventually trend into the majority turning on him, but it sure hasn't yet. Pay your money and boo the man, but don't deceive yourself into thinking everyone agrees with you.

There's a scene in Bye, Bye Birdie where all the young girls in town sing their devotion to rock star Conrad Birdie: "We love you Conrad, and will be true!" Then it shows a bunch of teenage boys singing, "We hate you Conrad, oh yes we do!" This is the same phenomenon you see when anything gets too big. Just check out IMDB boards and listen to the "Twihards" and "Twihaters" argue over Twilight. If someone loves something enough, it becomes irritating to some who don't. This has happened with Cena big time. It will last as long as he continues to draw well.

As far as whether or not there are still faces and heels, I disagree with him. He's the babyface and has been for a long time now. Some people are tired of him. It happened to Hogan as well. Too long a time in the role draws the hate from many, but he's still the face.

 

[GI Cake]

Cena is actually correct about this in a way. The business of Professional Wrestling has evolved over the course of its origin and the wrestlers that make the business. Back in the day you had very simple gimmicks, good guys who stood for Freedom, love, and good 'ole american pride. Than your heels were always foreign, monsters, or sinister heels. It entertained the fans and it made booking easier. But now that the times have changed, the same "Take your pills and say your prayers" just doesn't cut it anymore, wrestlers have to be fresh and original with their characters.

Faces and heels in today still have the same mold. Faces are the good guys, always fighting clean and doing their best to please the fans. And while the heels can cheat, lie, or destroy and break everything in their sight. But you can take a guy like John Cena for instance, no matter what he did, he always managed to get a reaction from the fans. When it was laying a FU to Kurt Angle, or laying down a rap on Brock Lesner, fans loved and hated Cena. Which is why Cena is the face of the largest company today, and is pushed as one.

And then you have the case of the heels fans can't help but love. The best examples can be guys like Eddie Guerrero. Unlike most of the faces he faced in his career, Eddie had charisma and character. In any of his matches he always did his best to make sure everyone cared about what Eddie did and how he did it. From disqualifying faces from matches by cheating or parading into the arena with Latino Heat, fans ate up what he did.

 

[enviousdominous]

I can't hate on Cena? Damn.

What we have here is a stage performer who is trying to tell the audience that everything is as it is with no influence from a writing staff of carefully planned booking. We can call shenanigans on Cena or we can just sit back and enjoy the illusion.

Fans will indeed cheer for who they please, but they're fed their opinion by circumstances that are brain stormed by a chosen few.

 

[Awesome_Miz]

John Cena in some way is right.Heels have always been the bad guys but some people choice to cheer and faces get boos from crowds.So Cena is right cause people choice who to boo.

 

[Best in the World 79]

Wow. Now when I read this I was kinda shocked. It seems to me as if he was trying to down talk a fan or fan(s). 1993? Really John? Cause he wasn't a heel in like 2003?? This guy is a joke. He wonders why people boo him. It's been the same old crap since 2005. He's been getting booed at Mania since Mania 22. The most classic imo, was mania 26 when he faced Batista and Batista got cheered like he was Taker at mania 23. Who does this guy think he is? He really thinks he bigger than wrestling. Now I know ratings would go down and he's a draw, and the girlies and little jimmy would be upset, but I think most of the true WRESTLING fans would be thrilled if Cena never popped up on WWE tv again. He said it on Raw in the contract signing that he only cares about the fans who cheer him and not the one's who boo him. That clearly states that he knows he sucks and he doesn't want to get better. Now when I say he sucks, here's why: His move set is awful and his character is as stale as bread back from 1993.

There are absolutely heels and faces and there will always be. A few months ago Christian was a face. Now he is a heel. Sheamus went from heel to face. Rtruth went from face to heel. Now Mr. 5 moves of doom. You are absolutely wrong. You only give us Cena Sucks Nation more to make fun of you about when you try to cover your ass and you only expose it even more. He is a phony. Cm punk is right!

Quick point. Out of all the wrestlers ever, when the fans chanted for a move, typically the superstar performed the move. Ex: Rko chant, Orton rko's the guy. Old school for taker, he old schooled them. JOHN CENA IS THE ONLY GUY IN HISTORY WHO HAS TO PERFOR A WRESTLING MOVE WHEN THE FANS ARE CHANTING YOU CAN'T WRESTLE! Point proven.

 

[whoopin' ass]

it is a bs statement. the face is who the people cheer for and the heel is who they boo. it is rather simple. look at punk - he was supposed to be the heel but the fans cheer for him. notice how quickly he stopped saying the fans were part of the problem? the fans are behind him now so that makes him a face. his statement is a good excuse for someone to do whatever they want. if you say you are a face, there are certian things that a face isn't supposed to do so your character may be limited. but if you use the russo "shades of grey" approach, then your character can do anything. it is just an excuse so that if you need cena to use a chair on someone, he can do that - a face shouldn't but since there are no faces or heels anymore, he can do it. create a character and let the fans decide if they are heel or face instead of creating a heel/face character and then fighting the crowds when they don't boo/cheer for them like you want. quit flip-flopping them with heel and face turns and just let them act consistantly with their character.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Wow. Now when I read this I was kinda shocked. It seems to me as if he was trying to down talk a fan or fan(s). 1993? Really John? Cause he wasn't a heel in like 2003?? This guy is a joke. He wonders why people boo him. It's been the same old crap since 2005. He's been getting booed at Mania since Mania 22. The most classic imo, was mania 26 when he faced Batista and Batista got cheered like he was Taker at mania 23. Who does this guy think he is? He really thinks he bigger than wrestling. Now I know ratings would go down and he's a draw, and the girlies and little jimmy would be upset, but I think most of the true WRESTLING fans would be thrilled if Cena never popped up on WWE tv again. He said it on Raw in the contract signing that he only cares about the fans who cheer him and not the one's who boo him. That clearly states that he knows he sucks and he doesn't want to get better. Now when I say he sucks, here's why: His move set is awful and his character is as stale as bread back from 1993.

There are absolutely heels and faces and there will always be. A few months ago Christian was a face. Now he is a heel. Sheamus went from heel to face. Rtruth went from face to heel. Now Mr. 5 moves of doom. You are absolutely wrong. You only give us Cena Sucks Nation more to make fun of you about when you try to cover your ass and you only expose it even more. He is a phony. Cm punk is right!

Quick point. Out of all the wrestlers ever, when the fans chanted for a move, typically the superstar performed the move. Ex: Rko chant, Orton rko's the guy. Old school for taker, he old schooled them. JOHN CENA IS THE ONLY GUY IN HISTORY WHO HAS TO PERFOR A WRESTLING MOVE WHEN THE FANS ARE CHANTING YOU CAN'T WRESTLE! Point proven.

Then Cena makes those fans hate him even more by being a cheesy babyface. Then Harley Race, Terry Funk, RVD, Samoa Joe, and CM Punk say he can wrestle. Sounds to me like Cena is working them.

You're right though, CM Punk IS right, Cena is a good pro wrestler. Stop thinking CM Punks "shoots" on TV are actually shoots.

 

[Best in the World 79]

Then Cena makes those fans hate him even more by being a cheesy babyface. Then Harley Race, Terry Funk, RVD, Samoa Joe, and CM Punk say he can wrestle. Sounds to me like Cena is working them.

You're right though, CM Punk IS right, Cena is a good pro wrestler. Stop thinking CM Punks "shoots" on TV are actually shoots.

I know his shoot was a "shoot"
His mic would've been cut off way before he got half way into anything. I'm not stupid.

Vince knows what he's doing. He's definitely still in charge. He knows he has to put more attitude into his product now. He is losing older fans to little kiddie cenas. Cena sucks and always will. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. Said so by the "wwe universe"

 

[Paralyzer Z]

First off the op sig is weird.

On topic I agree with jack hammer he just says this stuff to get the internet worked up. He loves doing this and his mention of shining his heel persona through was the same thing.

At the end of The day john cena is a face and I can see him.

 

[Wrestlingfan100]

I know his shoot was a "shoot"
His mic would've been cut off way before he got half way into anything. I'm not stupid.

Vince knows what he's doing. He's definitely still in charge. He knows he has to put more attitude into his product now. He is losing older fans to little kiddie cenas. Cena sucks and always will. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. Said so by the "wwe universe"

So just because a bunch of adults and teens who've never been to wrestling school dislike him determines his skills in the ring, um . . WRONG! I'm NOT a fan or a hater of John Cena, I respect him as a human being John isn't working anyone. Jericho is the reason he got pushed go buy Jericho's book but I guess you won't because you want
the fast answer. Jericho was impressed with his in ring skills comparing him to The Rock{ a guy Jericho loved to work with} and said he was impressed with Cena's promo skills because he could cut a lengthy promo and then say it backwards, he said he asked Vince to let John go over him at a PPV dark match and then Cena impressed with his outgoing attitude at the holloween backstage party and rapper Cena was born then Jericho was on his way out for his break to work with Fozzy and chose to go out by John Cena defeating him. So Chris
Jericho a guy who trained in the hart dungeon vouched for John Cena . . . yea sorry to crush yoru little tanget with um what are called "facts".

Also during the promotion of his book Jericho said this

" People like to hate on John Cena because it's the cool thing to do, same thing with Justin Beiber."

 

[SomeAreSet]

So what do you think? Is John Cena correct? Does a face/ heel distinction not exist in wrestling today? Is it an outdated notion? Or do you disagree with him?

The fans cheer for whoever the hell they want.Obviously you'll still have the clean-cut guys like Cena and the shady characters like Del Rio,but I think the line between face and heel has been blurred by the fans over the years,mainly because most of them think they're smarks and love to boo the faces and cheer the heels to "shake things up".My favourite wrestlers are a mix of heels and faces.If the face/heel dynamic was that clear,all your favourite wrestlers would be face and any face wrestlers that turn heel would cease to be your favourite wrestler,like back when we were all 12. "Yeah,I used to like Bret Hart,but I stopped liking him after he attacked Stone Cold after their match." "Yeah,I loved Hulk Hogan,but after he leg dropped Randy Savage?...Excuse me *goes to the corner and sobs*" You don't bloody hear conversations like that among most wrestling fans.

I can think of many examples where there is no clear heel or face,but here's one about the 2 biggest names in the business today.Orton was getting cheered back when he was punting women and old people.Cena gets booed even with his Captain America attitude and morals.I mean,both of them are doing things the fans love and hate respectively,so how do you classify them?You can call Cena a face because he has good values and morals but many fans hate that about him.You could call Orton a heel back when he was beating old people and women up but the fans loved it.Who knows,maybe Cena kept on being Super-Cena because he knew it would piss off the fans.Maybe Orton kept on attacking faces because he knew the fans loved it.It's pretty meta,isn't it?

Another good example is The Rock.Back when he was Rocky Maivia,everybody hated him.Then he took off the ribbons and multi-colored trunks and told the crowd to go screw themselves and the crowd started cheering for him.Rocky Maivia was supposed to be a face,The Rock was supposed to be a heel,but the crowd hated the former and loved the latter.You can't explain that.You can't explain the crowd cheering a man who constantly bullies guys who are smaller than him and says things to women that would get him arrested if he was at a coffee shop instead of TV.He's one of the biggest faces in pro wrestling history though.

So I have to agree with Cena on this.The fans do cheer for whomever they please.They cheered for Christian even when he was acting like a little turd,whining every week about losing his World Title.Why?Because he has a reputation for always getting looked over by Vince.There's no other reason they should be cheering him because let's be honest,Christian's boring.Just boring.Soooo boring.He acts like a little bitch too.They'll cheer when Christian moans and whines but they booed when Cena didn't moan about The Rock screwing him over at WrestleMania.The fans hated that,hell,even I hated that.The moment Cena says "f*ck it" and starts beating up the faces of the company and stops being "nice",the crowd would cheer for him like crazy.The fact is,smarks really hate faces.They just want everyone to turn heel.They think every problem can be solved by turning a wrestler heel.The way they go on about how face Cena's so boring and how he needs to turn heel,you'd think Cena would cure world hunger and solve the USA's debt problem if he turned heel.

I don't think the notion of heels and faces are outdated.There are many clear cut heels and faces in the company.For example,Kofi Kingston and Rey Mysterio are as face as can be.John Laurinaitis and Vickie Guerrero are as heel as anyone can be.The fact is fans don't want to be directed.

Anyway,Cena's pretty much just fucking with the so-called smarks because he knows they hate him and he likes to taunt them as much as he can.I'm starting to think he's deliberately doing his 5 moves of doom to piss them off,and one day he's going to have a match without the 5 moves.Just to f*ck with them.

 

[The Future Rises]

I totally disagree with what Cena said. Not that I have anything against him but what do you call a jerk that's SUPPOSED to get booed in Pro Wrestling? A heel. Do heels exist nowadays? Yes. Just because a lot of people like the heels nowadays doesn't change the fact that his character is an asshole.

Some fans cheer for the heels nowadays because the only remaining babyfaces that have a badass character and really likeable are CM Punk, Sheamus, Alex Riley, and for some people even Randy Orton. Those are the only babyfaces I can think of right now that can be considered badasses. Back then almost all the babyfaces(Undertaker, Stone Cold, The Rock, Chris Benoit, Eddie, Cena(Rapper), etc..) were all very likeable characters so they were babyfaces that got cheered. But in today's WWE there are rarely any really likeable babyfaces. So the older fans just don't even bother cheer anymore if the character wasn't likeable enough.

 

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

I agree completely with what Myriad said here - face and heel are synonymous with, i.e. exactly the same as, protagonist and antagonist, and as such are fundamental building blocks of stories. What's wrestling again? Oh yeah, it's stories. So as Myriad said, it's the "empirical definition of what is good and what is not good" that counts here.

However, I believe that Cena does not actually believe what he said, or more accurately, Cena was using "face" and "heel" to define character traits rather than alignment on a Sorting Algorithm of Morality.

Look at the way WWE uses Twitter and social media today. There are works everywhere. Mini-feuds and fueling current feuds all the time. Cena/Rock, Austin/Punk, Miz/Jericho, these are just the most prominent recent examples of this.

So when Cena says he's not a face or a heel, I believe what he means is, "Shut up, smark, and learn to rise above the whole 'bads gys r cool lol lol lol' stuff". By all other definitions he surely knows, he and Orton and Austin are most definitely faces - which as I said before is simply wrestling jargon for "protagonists".

Excellent opening post, Myriad.

 

[Sin Jackal]

Heels and faces do exist, but the point Cena was trying to make (not very eloquently I guess), was that he really isn't either because he is booed by half the crowd. Faces are the guys that are usually cheered bye veryone, while heels are the guys that are supposed to get booed.

The line's become blurred every since the late 90's with heels ending up being more popular than the faces. Stone Cold was clearly a heel, and yet, got cheered. The Rock was -ALWAYS- a heel, but got cheered just because he was fighting heels (the booed when he went full heel, then started getting cheered due to his humorous reactions to stuff even when he was still a full heel). So in that sense, some heels end up being sort of faces, and some faces can end up being heels.

Cena's right, if that's what he was trying to say. But if he was saying there aren't heels or faces at all, then he's obviously wrong. Heels and faces are the bad guys and good guys. . .it really doesn't matter who gets cheered or booed anymore. Heath Slater's a face now, but he's boring so I want him to lose. I boo if he gets put over any better or more interesting wrestlers.

R Truth is clearly a heel. Same with Mark Henry. Same with Kevin Nash. etc etc. . .andCena. . . . is clearly a face, the top face currently. Just because he gets booed by people that are tired of him always winning doesn't mean he isn't still obviously a face who just happens to get booed by half the crowds.

 

[Best in the World 79]

So just because a bunch of adults and teens who've never been to wrestling school dislike him determines his skills in the ring, um . . WRONG! I'm NOT a fan or a hater of John Cena, I respect him as a human being John isn't working anyone. Jericho is the reason he got pushed go buy Jericho's book but I guess you won't because you want
the fast answer. Jericho was impressed with his in ring skills comparing him to The Rock{ a guy Jericho loved to work with} and said he was impressed with Cena's promo skills because he could cut a lengthy promo and then say it backwards, he said he asked Vince to let John go over him at a PPV dark match and then Cena impressed with his outgoing attitude at the holloween backstage party and rapper Cena was born then Jericho was on his way out for his break to work with Fozzy and chose to go out by John Cena defeating him. So Chris
Jericho a guy who trained in the hart dungeon vouched for John Cena . . . yea sorry to crush yoru little tanget with um what are called "facts".

Also during the promotion of his book Jericho said this

" People like to hate on John Cena because it's the cool thing to do, same thing with Justin Beiber."

I'm not looking for answers?? People, like you, cena fans, whomever. Get really ill because not many adults like the guy. You should get over it. There's a reason why cm punk says he is the voice of the voiceless. no one listens to us. punk knows ppl are fed up with the same old shit we've seen for years. as far as cena goes, he's a hell of an athlete, tons of charisma, good guy. BUT A STALE ASS CHARACTER. I wouldn't care if cm punk got shitfaced everynight. his character is edgy and interesting. not a smiling face that somehow overcame the odds again because he is supercena. as a fan that watches on the tv, i want something different. new. not the same. understand?? no more cena in every damn title match. let him get his ass kicked by somebody new. throw him in there with dolph. do something. send him to smackdown. who cares what you do with him but they have to change something. i wouldn't care if i was the only person alive that disliked cena. i dont do it because it is cool. i do it because i am sick and tired of his idiodic bs he does week in and week out

 

[Dagger Dias]

I disagree with Cena. He makes a valid argument, but faces and heels do still exist when it comes down to it. Fan favorites are still faces. Guys the fans mostly hate are still heels. Now what he may be referring to is the fact that fan reactions help determine a wrestler's face/heel status. If someone is BOOKED to be a powerful face, but crickets chirp each time he tries to get a reaction, then it's time to try a heel run for him. Same goes for a heel who keeps getting cheered. The fans have the power to turn someone in the long run if their reactions remain against what WWE's plans are. What Cena probably meant is that there are no TRADITIONAL faces/heels like in the Hogan era because there are a lot of tweeners and shades of grey now compared to the black and white of oldschool face/heel status. Fan reaction plays a much larger part in it today.

 

[hollowpoint]

I don't agree with what he said about there not being heels/faces. That is the basis of what the WWE and the "wrasslin biness" is. People go there for the good guy vs bad guy drama and for Cena to say that it doesn't exists doesn't really make sense at all. I think he knows that there is nothing he can do about the reaction he gets, that's why he's trying to embrace it the way that he has. There are only a couple of Superstars that are in the grey zone when it comes to characters and I would limit them to Punk, Cena, and maybe Miz. Everyone else on the roster is either a bonafide Heel (Mark Henry, Wade Barrett) or a face (John Morrison. Sheamus).

 

[HyperPlex 99]

Here are MORE examples of what everyone's "face vs heel" complaints:
Rob Van Dam:ECW-WCW Invasion storyline (He was supposed to be hated, but fans know GREAT talent when they see it, and got over him as a face instead.)

Goldberg: "The Vince Russo Project" that was suppose to help WCW nitro catch up with RAW's ratings, by making 'Da Man' into a so-called "Hired gun" to stir up shock value in that promotion (Only to see guys, like Benoit and Guerrerro jump ship moments later.)