The Rock vs. Three Of The Biggest Names In Wrestling

[mrstlouis]

He started in 1997, for the record.

I'm not going to sit here and bicker with you, but Goldberg was extremely over a succesful in a very short time, and got over without the belt. Just because he didn't wrestle like Chris Benoit didn't mean he sucked.

goldberg in 1997 was a nobody & a jobber then because i was watching WCW & he was not on tv . goldeberg was not even known till around starcade 98
. goldberg did not even really get on tv till around starcade 1998. so get your facts straight because i have watched every NWA/WCW & WWE show on tv since 1982. goldberg is nothing but gready piece of crap who does not respect the wrestling business or fans at all.goldberg will never be know as one of the biggest superstars ever because all goldberg was a fade. all it is fact WCW pump fake goldberg chants & pops for him since the begin .so goldberg not that over

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

What about Hulk Hogan in 2002:

WM 18: The Rock
Backlash: Triple H
Judgment Day: The Undertaker
King of the Ring: Kurt Angle

 

[pyrusane]

goldberg in 1997 was a nobody & a jobber then because i was watching WCW & he was not on tv . goldeberg was not even known till around starcade 98
. goldberg did not even really get on tv till around starcade 1998. so get your facts straight because i have watched every NWA/WCW & WWE show on tv since 1982. goldberg is nothing but gready piece of crap who does not respect the wrestling business or fans at all.goldberg will never be know as one of the biggest superstars ever because all goldberg was a fade. all it is fact WCW pump fake goldberg chants & pops for him since the begin .so goldberg not that over

Ok, I hate Goldberg as much as the next guy, but man, you are seriously stupid. A "jobber"? Um, you are calling the guy who is only famous because of a 172-0 win-loss record a jobber? Do you even know what that word means?

Goldberg had his first televised match in September of 1997, beating Hugh Morris. After that he didn't lose another match until the taser incident against Kevin Nash, at, you guessed it, Starrcade 98. They were booking him as a monster from the very beginning, and he was on tv pretty much every week. Your assertion that he didn't even start showing up on tv until Starrcade 98 is pretty ridiculous since that was the PPV where he lost the world title to Nash. A world title he had won on Nitro from Hulk Hogan six months earlier.

If you are going to try to sound like a know-it-all, and talk down to people, do a little research, learn to spell, pick up a book on proper grammar, or else don't bother to post.

 

[mrstlouis]

Ok, I hate Goldberg as much as the next guy, but man, you are seriously stupid. A "jobber"? Um, you are calling the guy who is only famous because of a 172-0 win-loss record a jobber? Do you even know what that word means?

Goldberg had his first televised match in September of 1997, beating Hugh Morris. After that he didn't lose another match until the taser incident against Kevin Nash, at, you guessed it, Starrcade 98. They were booking him as a monster from the very beginning, and he was on tv pretty much every week. Your assertion that he didn't even start showing up on tv until Starrcade 98 is pretty ridiculous since that was the PPV where he lost the world title to Nash. A world title he had won on Nitro from Hulk Hogan six months earlier.

If you are going to try to sound like a know-it-all, and talk down to people, do a little research, learn to spell, pick up a book on proper grammar, or else don't bother to post.

Goldberg was a jobber before he started that 172-0 win-loss record . goldberg jobbed many times before he started his feud with mongo.so they did not book him as a monster from the beginning. there are matches out their of him beign a jobber in 1997 in WCW. you are right about goldberg being around in 1997 . i got starcade 97 & 98 mixxed up. goldberg was jobber before starcadde 1997 & that is a fact .go look it up . that match against Hugh Morris. wass not his first televised match . goldberg had matches on world wide where he jobbed & saturday night he alsojobbed on.like i said i never missed a wcw show.

 

[Tenta]

Goldberg was a jobber before he started that 172-0 win-loss record . goldberg jobbed many times before he started his feud with mongo.so they did not book him as a monster from the beginning. there are matches out their of him beign a jobber in 1997 in WCW. you are right about goldberg being around in 1997 . i got starcade 97 & 98 mixxed up. goldberg was jobber before starcadde 1997 & that is a fact .go look it up . that match against Hugh Morris. wass not his first televised match . goldberg had matches on world wide where he jobbed & saturday night he alsojobbed on.like i said i never missed a wcw show.

You're correct on one account, in that in his first ever television appearance, he was portrayed as a jobber. He was one of the guys that tried out to be a member of Roddy Piper's team. Also, if you read Goldberg's book, on another taping of Worldwide, he was asked to job (I believe the name given in the book was Al Green, and he was asked by Arn Anderson).

However, after that, mrstlouis, I completely disagree with you. The notion that Goldberg was a jobber is ludicrous, as when WCW decided to make him a regular character on television, Goldberg did everything BUT job. He went undefeated for (allegedly) 172 matches. Yes, he beat jobbers, but he also got over. Hence, the WCW decided to portray him as an unstoppable monster and a (well, looky here) main eventer.

Plus, with your logic, that makes the following wrestlers "jobbers":

[youtube]p68j8hVyhlE[/youtube]

[youtube]paggUwXlyRY[/youtube]

[youtube]-HLLTkeKvUU[/youtube]



Are you about to admit that these wrestlers are jobbers? Or would you rather just admit you're wrong, like you really should?

 

[pyrusane]

Ok, in all fairness, Mick Foley kind of is a jobber, but he's the most well-known, well-respected jobber of all times, and with three WWF world titles and a TNA world title, the most successful jobber ever. But yeah, he's most famous for the matches he lost, wouldn't you say?

Ok, back to reality. This argument that Goldberg is a nobody that hardly anyone knew about and never amounted to anything...mrstlouis has conceded that he started getting really well known around Starrcade 97, which was three months after his Nitro debut as Goldberg. Now yes, he did lose two matches prior to that debut, one of those was the match JohnTenta mentioned when he was part of Piper's crew, the other was actually a dark match, I believe, and his second professional match ever. After the Hugh Morris match, he never lost again until Starrcade 98. That is a well-documented fact. 172-0 is a made up number of course, but if we give him credit for every Nitro from September 97 through Starrcade 98, plus every PPV from Starrcade 97 up until that loss, then we have a legitimate record of 78 - 0, which is still awfully darn impressive. Oh wait, Thunder debuted in January of 98, so lets add in say 2/3s of those shows as well, now we are up to 102 - 0. I'm assuming that there are a few shows in there where he didn't actually wrestle. Either way, he went from September 97 to December 98 without losing a match. That's 15 straight months. This is not the work of a nobody.

Now, on top of that, Goldberg disappeared from television in 2001, just before the WWF (at the time) purchased WCW. He wasn't seen again until 2003. Yet when Brock Lesnar debuted in 2001, people began chanting for Goldberg as soon as they saw him. These weren't the piped in chants from WCW, these were real. Goldberg's final WWE match in 2004, against Lesnar, was one of the most anticipated matches in memory, which is why it was SUCH a letdown when it sucked so badly. Since that match, we have never seen Goldberg on WWE television again. And yet here we are, five years later, discussing him as if his career just ended yesterday. I don't see the Patriot getting that much attention. The Brooklyn Brawler was a jobber to the stars, why don't we talk about him all the time. Iron Mike Sharpe...meh, I've made my point.

 

[mrstlouis]

You're correct on one account, in that in his first ever television appearance, he was portrayed as a jobber. He was one of the guys that tried out to be a member of Roddy Piper's team. Also, if you read Goldberg's book, on another taping of Worldwide, he was asked to job (I believe the name given in the book was Al Green, and he was asked by Arn Anderson).

However, after that, mrstlouis, I completely disagree with you. The notion that Goldberg was a jobber is ludicrous, as when WCW decided to make him a regular character on television, Goldberg did everything BUT job. He went undefeated for (allegedly) 172 matches. Yes, he beat jobbers, but he also got over. Hence, the WCW decided to portray him as an unstoppable monster and a (well, looky here) main eventer.

Plus, with your logic, that makes the following wrestlers "jobbers":

[youtube]p68j8hVyhlE[/youtube]

[youtube]paggUwXlyRY[/youtube]

[youtube]-HLLTkeKvUU[/youtube]



Are you about to admit that these wrestlers are jobbers? Or would you rather just admit you're wrong, like you really should?

yes you are right john tenta & so is pyrusane. i am just saying goldberg started out a jobber not some big superstar like everybody thinks . brock lesnar started out better the goldberg that is all i am saying & i will never say goldberg or lesnar is close to be one of the biggest stars ever in wrestling when that is not 100% true..austin ,Rock ,sting ,nash,bret hart,ric flair ,macho man,HHH,HBK ,mick foley ,kurt angle ,chris jericho, & eddie guerrero are all bigger wrestling stars then goldberg . goldberg was a trend a flash in the pan during a flash in a pan era.if is also a fact that WWE pumped fake goldberg chants during goldbergs stay in WWE because he did not get that good of a reaction from the WWE fans. so WCW &WWe both used fake goldberg chants during his time wrestling & that also shows he was not one of the boggest superstars ever . goldberg popularity died really quick & to be a one of biggest superstars ever your popularity has to last long time unlike goldbergs..

 

[pyrusane]

yes you are right john tenta & so is pyrusane. i am just saying goldberg started out a jobber not some big superstar like everybody thinks . brock lesnar started out better the goldberg that is all i am saying & i will never say goldberg or lesnar is close to be one of the biggest stars ever in wrestling when that is not 100% true..austin ,Rock ,sting ,nash,bret hart,ric flair ,macho man,HHH,HBK ,mick foley ,kurt angle ,chris jericho, & eddie guerrero are all bigger wrestling stars then goldberg . goldberg was a trend a flash in the pan during a flash in a pan era.if is also a fact that WWE pumped fake goldberg chants during goldbergs stay in WWE because he did not get that good of a reaction from the WWE fans. so WCW &WWe both used fake goldberg chants during his time wrestling & that also shows he was not one of the boggest superstars ever . goldberg popularity died really quick & to be a one of biggest superstars ever your popularity has to last long time unlike goldbergs..

Ok, we agree on something here. Brock Lesnar did start off a lot stronger than Goldberg. The very first time we saw him on tv he came out and just absolutely destroyed Spike Dudley (I believe it was Spike. I was watching that night but I've slept since then and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.) He was booked as a monster from the start, while Goldberg slowly built his monster reputation.

I think the big issue here, the source of this whole argument, is a matter of semantics. You say Goldberg was not popular for very long, and on that, I would whole-heartedly agree. He was hugely over during his main run, and even with the piped in chants, he was still over. But you're right, it didn't last long, in the bigger picture. The question, though, isn't one of popularity, but rather one of fame.

The majority of people who post on here will be quick to say that Goldberg sucked as a worker, that he was far more over because of his booking than his ability, and those people would be right. The best thing Goldberg had going for him, other than his look, was a spear that literally looked like it would break you in half. IMHO, the best looking spear in the business. Tons better than Batista's crap spear, and more visually impressive than Edge's, although Edge has more versatility and can hit the spear from far more angles.

There is no denying, however, that whether he was popular or not, Goldberg's name has become a name that the wrestling world is familiar with, that we all remember, and that because of his booking is associated with names like Sting, Hogan, Austin and Flair. He wasn't half the worker that any of those guys were (even Hogan) but his legacy still remains. Actually, I would compare him the closest with the Ultimate Warrior; crap in the ring, but he made an impression that we can't forget.

So, as undeserved as it may well be, Goldberg will always be remembered as at least a minor legend in the business. His ringwork may never be equal to any of those you named above, but as I said before...five years later, we're still talking about him...

And with that being said...I can't bear to defend Goldberg anymore...I'm done