The Return of Pro Wrestling

[BillAlfonso]

With the looming arrival of The Kings of Wrestling, Punk's ascension, Tyler Black waiting in the wings, and Daniel Bryan's MITB victory, it seems as if the independent circuit has become a pipeline for WWE. So, do you think that, much like the spread offense in college has changed the play in the NFL, the influx of indy stars will change WWE to more of a pro wrestling style in the ring at least or will they be chewed up by the Sports Entertainment beast?

 

[The Suplexer Perfecter]

Pro Wrestling never left in the first place. It doesn't matter what they call it, what they do on those TV shows and PPVs is 100% pro wrestling.

Also, Sports Entertainment is the reason Vince McMahon's WWE became the number 1 company in the United States and the world.

They keep taking Indy Stars because their own development system sucks.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. As far as "pro wrestling style" inside the ring, when did the WWE ever stop? The WWE continues to put out great wrestling matches week in and week out on television, at ppvs and at live shows.

If someone's idea of pro wrestling are cards filled with little more than spot fests, then it's best to just stick to the indy scene. There's more emphasis placed on psychology and storytelling in the WWE. Always has been and I doubt that's going to change, nor should it.

 

[rokuma]

I have to disagree with you Jack-Hammer. Watch the matches on Raw and Smackdown...guys have become spot-monkeys and just hit their spots and the match is over, usually with a predictable finish. This even affected Shawn Michaels! All of his TV matches were predictable. I don't know if they're saving it all for the PPVs, but the in-ring quality has been better recently. It seems that they have opened it up a little and haven't just been hitting some moves in short spans.

 

[RicoLen]

I kinda get what you're saying. Granted I agree with the previous two guys that Pro-Wrestling never really left. More like it just evolved.

You go and watch the Summerslam '92 IC Title match and you see pro-wrestling unlike anything you saw during the attitude era, it wasn't until Angle & Benoit & Jericho started feuding during very tail end of the AE and during the ruthless aggression era that it made a prominent return. And by that time it had evolved to include a lot of the moves that were considered illegal back in the new generation days, and also used a lot more flashy moves without any real amateur wrestling background. It's just very different now.

I don't know if we'll ever see wrestling like that again, because the wrestlers are just so different now and stupid moves like the hurricanrana are more popular to use than a drop toehold followed by a front face lock countered by a leg scissors countered by an armbar, etc. They just don't wrestle like that anymore, and it's really too bad.

I can go back and watch Hitman vs Bulldog and still be amazed at how well the two worked together to make a backslide look not only low-impact on Bulldog, performing the backslide, but also high-impact on the Hitman, it's just about the one and only time I've seen that happen, and that is how it should be done, most of the time a backslide looks like it'd hurt the guy performing the backslide more than the guy about to get pinned.

I just don't think we'll see that STYLE of technical wrestling again, they've been replaced more far more flashy and unrealistic moves that'll get a bigger crowd response.

 

[OneManStampede]

I Agree with ricolen, except for the part about the hurricarana/headscissors cause i love that move and it is actually used kung fu tournaments in china( though its not very common it does get used). thats beside the point though. A chokeslam would be illegal back in the day and now alot of people use at there signature move.

 

[PlayTheGameHHH]

Pro wrestling has always been there just because they say Superstar and Sports Entertainment it doesn't mean they've completely ditched wrestling. I read an article online which said that WWE were banning the terms wrestling and wrestler but that turned out to be complete bullshit because we hear those words week in and week out. When someones asks me if I watch WWE they ALWAYS say "do you watch WWE wrestling?" and never "do you watch WWE the global entertainment company" LOL, it will always be associated with wrestling no matter how hard they try disassociate themselves from the term.

 

[H33LTurn]

There might be more emphasis on the in ring wrestling with these guys there but theres no doubt they're all going to succumb to the WWE style. Punk did, Daniel Bryan did, and everybody else who follows in their footsteps does just the same. WWE is going to keep going in the direction that they want regardless of who they sign. Signing ROH talents at a time when theres a buzz about ROH just brings in more fans.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

In some ways, I'd say pro wrestling never left the WWE. It changed for a long time, sure... In a lot of ways you could say it's become watered down, stale, and maybe even boring from time to time. BUt great matches still pop up every once in awhile, no matter how bland you think the product has become.

On the other hand, I think we've had more "match of the year" candidates in 2011 than we normally do in any given year, and we're only a little more than halfway through it at this point! There are some very talented guys on the roster finally coming into their own, and at the same time the main event guys seem to be really stepping it up. I don't think "pro wrestling is back", I just think the guys that are entertaining us, and have been doing so for years, are just stepping it up another notch. And that's never a bad thing...

 

[The Future Rises]

I have to disagree with you Jack-Hammer. Watch the matches on Raw and Smackdown...guys have become spot-monkeys and just hit their spots and the match is over, usually with a predictable finish.

The only spot monkeys right now are John Morrison, Kofi Kingston, and even Rey Mysterio. They're mediocre mat wrestlers. Amazing high flyers. And pretty much that's all they have. They're the ultimate spot monkeys. But guys who can really wrestler and put on good wrestling matches like Punk, Swagger, Bryan, Ziggler, Bourne, Sheamus, and Christian are no spot monkeys. People might think Bourne is and even i thought he was but after his match with a guy that's actually his size Sin Cara I have a different view of both of them. These two are actually pretty good wrestlers and not the typical spot monkeys. Even Shawn Michaels wasn't a spot monkey. He was a great in ring technician. with alot in his arsenal. Wrestling was never gone from the WWE. And it will never be gone from the WWE.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

The only spot monkeys right now are John Morrison, Kofi Kingston, and even Rey Mysterio. They're mediocre mat wrestlers. Amazing high flyers. And pretty much that's all they have. They're the ultimate spot monkeys. But guys who can really wrestler and put on good wrestling matches like Punk, Swagger, Bryan, Ziggler, Bourne, Sheamus, and Christian are no spot monkeys. People might think Bourne is and even i thought he was but after his match with a guy that's actually his size Sin Cara I have a different view of both of them. These two are actually pretty good wrestlers and not the typical spot monkeys. Even Shawn Michaels isn't a spot monkey. He was a great in ring technician. with alot in his arsenal. Wrestling was never gone from the WWE. And it will never be gone from the WWE.

I can't believe I'm about to stick up for Rey Mysterio TWICE in a single week, but he is NOT a spot monkey. I get that he does a lot of high flying stuff that is similar every single week, but he has more technical skill than most on the roster. He is partly responsible for some of the best matches of the year in 2011, and the same can be said for almost every year he's been a part of the company. I'm not even a Rey Mysterio fan, and I'd never call him a spot monkey. Yeah, he sets up for the 619, but everyone has a set-up for their finisher. Mysterio has had fantastic matches with John Cena, Cody Rhodes, and CM Punk this year, on multiple occasions.

Morrison is more of a spot guy, because a part of character relies on doing big, never-before-seen stuff...better known as spots... That I will give you, but he's still a pretty talented in-ring guy. I don't know what anybody sees in him as far as charisma goes, but he's talented.

Also, I've been told that Swagger can wrestle by just about every single person in the forums, but I've never actually SEEN it. Somebody find me a few great matches the guy has been a part of, so I can join the "Swagger is a wrestling genius" club.

 

[Inittowinit]

WWE/WWF has always been Pro Wrestling. The only reason Sports Entertainment came about was so Vince could circumvent the state athletic commissions. No matter what people think wrestling is wrestling no matter how PC you try to make it.

 

[The Future Rises]

Also, I've been told that Swagger can wrestle by just about every single person in the forums, but I've never actually SEEN it. Somebody find me a few great matches the guy has been a part of, so I can join the "Swagger is a wrestling genius" club.

You see that's the problem. WWE doesn't book Swagger right. His title reign was somewhat short and his main event push only lasted a short few months. But he has had good matches. When he was put in the ring with guys like The Undertaker and Triple H. He was having good matches. But ever since losing the title the WWE has been booking Swagger badly. If they put him in matches against guys like Punk and Bryan. You're definitely gonna have a good match there. As for a great Swagger match I'd have to say Swagger Vs Undertaker from RAW a year ago when he was actually a main eventer having good matches with top guys was his best match yet.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

You see that's the problem. WWE doesn't book Swagger right. ... As for a great Swagger match I'd have to say Swagger Vs Undertaker from RAW a year ago when he was actually a main eventer having good matches with top guys was his best match yet.

I'll have to look it up. Apparently Michael Cole was right when he said nobody remembers Swagger's time as champion, because I honestly don't even remember him facing the Undertaker or Triple H. I had no idea it happened, and I don't think I've missed a single episode of Raw in almost 10 years now... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and go watch the match before I judge, it's just uncanny how forgettable he is...

 

[Wrath]

I couldn't understand your topic but if you're talking about in ring work thats one of the criticisms toward WWE I have never ever understood. WWE have always been criticised for being a more of an entertainment show instead of pure wrestling. Yes it's not ROH. There are characters and storylines but if I know one thing WWE have never been a fully entertainment show. I have never watched IMPACT Wrestling but when it was TNA iMPACT WWE still produced much more in ring stuff than TNA. Okay I understand where you are coming WWE's flagship show RAW is more of an entertainment driven show. Instead of wrestling matches you see more of storylines and promos but it means that you only watch quarter of WWE programming. Smackdown is heavily a wrestling driven show, Superstars even though it's a show for midcard and undercarders is more of a wrestling driven show hell even in NXT there are hell of a lot more match focus than entertainment side. I don't even count PPVs where you generally see very solid and good 3 hours of wrestling. So you see WWE have 4 shows and 3 of them are more in ring focus. Yes you may seem Superstars and NXT pointless but WWE still offers you an alternative with Smackdown. If you don't like promos all storylines and etc. and see NXT and Superstars pointless watch Smackdown you can find pretty much good in ring stuff from there so saying that WWE is only an entertainment product is rather stupid. By the way what the fuck did you really mean by return of pro wrestling ?

 

[Mercer the Ruthless]

I don't think people realized how WWE operates to the fullest, if you look at their history they pushed the guys that were good on the mat, you look at The Rock, Ric, HHH, Angle, Benoit and Eddie they were great on the mat and not just at doing high risk moves. Especially with Angle, Benoit and Eddie they were so diverse and they appealed to everyone, so I always thought that to them [WWE] wrestling always mattered, no pun intended. But they cared more about the old school type wrestling matches melded in with the new lucha-libre inspired stuff. WWE likes to tell stories, that's their motif, I don't know why people like to give them flack for it, it adds that extra dimension to the experience.

 

[mrpops]

WWE likes to tell stories, that's their motif, I don't know why people like to give them flack for it, it adds that extra dimension to the experience.

Really? They fooled me the last 5 or so years with the same old formula for every singles match and tag team match. Hence them being so predictable. Thats why angle/benoit/eddie etc were so good. They actually changed it up almost every week. Sure they did the same moves, but they switched orders, did reversals, made you guess.

We only get to see that type of great wrestling at PPVs. Every RAW/smackdown is the same old match. Dumb headlocks, 50 restholds, guy gets thrown out of the ring every 2 seconds for commericals, 50 clotheslines and then the finishers. End match. Boring and their current "storytelling in the ring" is bland.

Whereas i can tune into TNA/impact and never know what im going to get. Every match is different featuring reversals, moves ive never seen before, something cool etc.

And non wrestling wise....WWE features only 1 storyline at a time on both shows. The last 5 years its either been the HHH show, the cena show, the edge show or the orton show. I cant remember the last time a midcarder had a storyline and thats a shame.

 

[BillAlfonso]

There is a difference between sports entertainment and pro wrestling, sports entertainment is intentionally theatrical. Vince McMahon said it himself when he was speaking to another person in the wrestling business that this was one of the biggest examples of theatrics that he's ever seen so he decided to play up to that and developed sports entertainment. Pro Wrestling is just a simulated sporting event. Guys just cut promos, wrestle, and improvise in pro wrestling, they have backstage vignettes and guys act in sports entertainment. Perfect example if John Morrison, promo wise, he's a pro wrestler and can deliver his own words. He's trying to act in the sports entertainment climate which is why he can't deliver fed lines. Ring wise, he's a sports entertainer, hence, all the spots but I've never really seen him mat wrestle. Also, in pro wrestling, the performers compete for the the appropriate titles in regards to their weight class. In pro wrestling, Daniel Bryan wouldn't even been in the MITB due to him not being in the heavyweight division. Putting the belt on him, as far as pro wrestling is concerned, is illogical because he could never beat a heavyweight in a real fight. Another example is George St. Pierre, he is arguably the best fighter in MMA today, would you have him fight Brock Lesnar? No, GSP is better than Lesnar but Lesnar would out muscle him. Putting the belt on Daniel Bryan, who I'm a fan of, only hurts the status of the World Heavyweight Championship. On the contrary, in sports entertainment, Danial Bryan would win the title due to playing up the underdog role for the entertainment value of it.

For those who chose to not understand, what I meant was do you think that they're going to scale back on making guys act and start just giving them key points during vignettes, promos, and matches and just let them go improvise like in pro wrestling because, the guys that I've seen come over from the indy scene and some of the stuff I've been able to see on youtube, a lot of these guys can cut a promo and mat wrestle or are they going to be made to act?

 

[LigerBomb]

You work for WWE, WWE doesn't work for you. The matches are still produced by agents and are very tight. Same for the typed out scripted promos. We'll see who can sink or swim out of that bunch you mentioned i.e. basically conform to the WWE way of working. I have a feeling most won't.

 

[BillAlfonso]

You work for WWE, WWE doesn't work for you. The matches are still produced by agents and are very tight. Same for the typed out scripted promos. We'll see who can sink or swim out of that bunch you mentioned i.e. basically conform to the WWE way of working. I have a feeling most won't.

I agree and don't agree with that and here's why. It is your duty to learn how to work in the system that's in place, this is true. The question is, at what point, as the person implementing the system, do you adjust it for the talent you currently have? You see it all the time in legitimate team sports especially football. If your offense is a vertical offense with a lot of passes down field but you end up with a quarterback that can't throw the deep ball as well as you'd like, you take out those deep plays or you take more time to set those plays up so that, when you do go deep, the wide receiver is open earlier and you don't have to throw as far.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

What the fuck is he saying? "Indy wrestling a pipeline to WWE" no shit, it always has been. You think guys just fall out of the sky? Anything past the territory days means that those guys were indy at first. Some more prominent than others, but they were ALL indy first.

What do you mean by "pro wrestling"? Do you mean Tyler Black not having any emotion and just doing flips that is supposedly impressive for a "big guy"?

WWE right now has more in ring action and in ring talent than at any other point in history except Smackdown 2002-2003. When did you start watching?

I can't believe I'm about to stick up for Rey Mysterio TWICE in a single week, but he is NOT a spot monkey. I get that he does a lot of high flying stuff that is similar every single week, but he has more technical skill than most on the roster. He is partly responsible for some of the best matches of the year in 2011, and the same can be said for almost every year he's been a part of the company. I'm not even a Rey Mysterio fan, and I'd never call him a spot monkey. Yeah, he sets up for the 619, but everyone has a set-up for their finisher. Mysterio has had fantastic matches with John Cena, Cody Rhodes, and CM Punk this year, on multiple occasions.

Morrison is more of a spot guy, because a part of character relies on doing big, never-before-seen stuff...better known as spots... That I will give you, but he's still a pretty talented in-ring guy. I don't know what anybody sees in him as far as charisma goes, but he's talented.

Also, I've been told that Swagger can wrestle by just about every single person in the forums, but I've never actually SEEN it. Somebody find me a few great matches the guy has been a part of, so I can join the "Swagger is a wrestling genius" club.

People don't know what a spot monkey is. A spot monkey is NOT someone who does a lot of high flying and highspots. It's someone who does that and doesn't sell or use any time of in ring storytelling/psychology. It's someone like RVD. Who will literally, fuck up a spot, then restart it and try again, without selling a single goddamned thing for more than 10 seconds.

Mysterio isn't a spot monkey and really never has been. His match vs Guerrero at Halloween Havoc had some insane spots that nobody had seen up until that point. However, everything made sense in the match and he sold his ass off for Guerrero so the people got behind the spots.

Morrison is more of a spot monkey, but the WWE agents make sure he at least paces his spots most of the time and try to get his shit set up to look spontaneous.

In a nutshell, here's the difference between the spot monkey's mindset and a good wrestler who utilizes highspots mindset.

A spot monkey will do what Jeff Hardy did at Wrestlemania 16. Ladder match, set up a ladder in the middle of the fucking aisle (why? Does he not want to win?), lay a guy on a table, climb up, pose, jump off. Fucking stupid. A smart worker will do spots like the Edge spearing Jeff off the belts at Mania X7. Edge is climing the ladder in the corner to maybe jump and knock jeff off, meanwhile bubba dudley, unknowing (kayfabe) of Edge pulls the ladder out from under Jeff, Jeff swings back, crowd goes "OH MY GOD" and Edge spears him off. It looks spontaneous and works.

 

[LigerBomb]

I agree and don't agree with that and here's why. It is your duty to learn how to work in the system that's in place, this is true. The question is, at what point, as the person implementing the system, do you adjust it for the talent you currently have? You see it all the time in legitimate team sports especially football. If your offense is a vertical offense with a lot of passes down field but you end up with a quarterback that can't throw the deep ball as well as you'd like, you take out those deep plays or you take more time to set those plays up so that, when you do go deep, the wide receiver is open earlier and you don't have to throw as far.

Oooooor you just get rid of the guy and get a guy who can do what you ask of him, the way you ask him. WWE isn't a legitimate sport, it is acting. Vince isn't a coach, he's the Director and he picks actors that can carry out HIS vision. More often than not if they cant do it the way he wants they are removed. It's always been that way, it probably won't change now. So I say again you work for the 'E, the 'E don't work for you. You learn the WWE style of working or you perish.