The Real Blown Invasion Angle

[STFU Donnie]

I know I'm in the minority and I would never argue that they could not have been done better, but I rarely agree with the most common criticisms of WCW's invasion of WWE and the UWF's invasion of JCP, which are the two invasions...or lack thereof..that receive the most scorn by wrestling fans. But I'm not here to argue the details of what I see as the business realities so often ignored (as I've done so on other threads).

Lost in all the attention given to blown invasion angles, is what I believe to be the single biggest blown invasion in US wrestling history. In 1988, Verne Gagne, Fritz Von Erich, and Jerry Jarrett agreed to a co-promotional agreement. Unfortunately, Verne was still delusional as he believed his business and ideas were still strong and Fritz had made a lot of money already and was watching his family disintegrate as he had already lost half of his children by 1988. Jerry Jarrett on the other hand had a vision that both kept his territory strong despite the trends of the times and the business acumen that would keep his name as a candidate to take the reigns of WCW well into the 90's, as well as a brief period of helping Vince run WWE during the steroid trial.

I believe if Verne and Fritz had been willing to follow Jarrett's lead and allow him to have a free hand in running what would have been a 3-sided invasion, then maybe...and I stress maybe, there would have been a big 3 well into the 90's.

Keep in mind that World Class was arguably the hottest territory in the early and mid 80's, as was the AWA, before mismanagement turned each promotion ice cold. But both maintained a relationship with the still fledgling ESPN, even in 1988. I believe with Jarrett in control and his innovative ideas, maybe he could have sold ESPN on a partnership. Recall that ESPN was not the power in 1988 as it would become and coming off of WWE's huge 1987, I think ESPN could have been sold on becoming more invested in the wrestling business.

Now consider that Jarrett's CWA still did good business in Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, Arkansas, and Mississippi. And just 3 short years earlier, the AWA ran strong in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Nebraska, Colorado, and parts of California and Canada, while World Class had Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and international TV deals. Also recall that while Crockett's expansion began in 1987, by 1988, they were already on borrowed time and had pulled back. They were still trying to run big cities outside of their territory, but they had largely abandoned the UWF territory, no longer running shows with their top talent. That is a ton of markets to strategically run shows.

I believe with Jarrett in charge, the combined talent roster of all three promotions (including free agent talent and conceivably talent who left in 1988 being convinced to take a wait and see approach), and a strong partnership with ESPN could have led to the best invasion angle of all time...up to that point of course and possibly changed the course of wrestling history as we know it.

And even if it fell short of the best expectations, Verne and Fritz blew what was their last and best chance to survive and continue to make money in wrestling. That this blown invasion would lead to Fritz selling out to Jarrett in 1989, killing World Class, and the AWA would survive 1989 on fumes before closing their doors in 1990, I believe makes it a far worse missed opportunity than what WWE and JCP missed by allowing dead promotions to die slowly again.

But I'm open to hearing other arguments...

 

[Makaveli31]

The AWA and WCCW (which was calling itself WCWA by that point if I'm not mistaken) were shells of their early-mid '80's selves. They had lost virtually ALL of their top stars to either Vince or JCP. I think the main event of their so-called supercard was Kerry Von Erich vs Jerry Lawler. The AWA was a mess, running shows in Vegas at the old Showboat casino to a few hundred (if that) fans, begging talent to stay and getting the leftovers from JCP and Vince or keeping the ones they didn't want. World Class was in the same boat. A shell of itself. They had nothing by 1988. Nothing.

CWA with Jarrett didn't have the "national" appeal like the WWF. They were strong in Tennessee and the smaller southeast markets but that's it. I can't see their "Southern" brand of wrestling working in the major national markets. They just looked and felt like a small territory. Plus the major talent never stayed long in Memphis. The went where the money was. Memphis wrestling could never compete nationally with either JCP or Vince.

JCP might have been on it's last legs by 1988 but they were in far better shape than either of the other three.

 

[spaldoni]

Very interesting post and I agree with it 100%! I always thought if these promoters could have put aside their differences and agreed to work together in building a strong promotion, they would of had a shot. An invasion angle would of been the way to go. Superclash 3 could of been a huge step in that direction. If you look back, the promotions had the talent, territories and TV deals. Jerry Lawler had the charisma to carry the ball for awhile. They even could of been daring and turned Greg Gagne heel in an effort to help Jarrett take control of the AWA. I think they had a window of opportunity but they blew it. It's a shame because an invasion angle like that would of drawn interest.

 

[STFU Donnie]

The AWA and WCCW (which was calling itself WCWA by that point if I'm not mistaken) were shells of their early-mid '80's selves. They had lost virtually ALL of their top stars to either Vince or JCP. I think the main event of their so-called supercard was Kerry Von Erich vs Jerry Lawler. The AWA was a mess, running shows in Vegas at the old Showboat casino to a few hundred (if that) fans, begging talent to stay and getting the leftovers from JCP and Vince or keeping the ones they didn't want. World Class was in the same boat. A shell of itself. They had nothing by 1988. Nothing.

CWA with Jarrett didn't have the "national" appeal like the WWF. They were strong in Tennessee and the smaller southeast markets but that's it. I can't see their "Southern" brand of wrestling working in the major national markets. They just looked and felt like a small territory. Plus the major talent never stayed long in Memphis. The went where the money was. Memphis wrestling could never compete nationally with either JCP or Vince.

JCP might have been on it's last legs by 1988 but they were in far better shape than either of the other three.

I don't know what JCP being in better shape has to do with anything, when they weren't running head-to-head with AWA/WCCW/CWA and had abandoned running in cities they had back in 1987 (go to history of WWE and look at their schedule, this is verifiable) and I don't know that you appreciate the brand value the AWA and World Class had through their history and affiliation with ESPN who broadcast their shows every day after school. The Showboat was where the AWA did TV's, it wasn't the extent of their road schedule. The fact that you're unsure who main evented SuperClash 3 makes me question just how knowledgeable you are about the state of wrestling in 1988.

And that "southern" brand of wrestling you seem to be deriding misses two key points 1) Jarret booked to his audience...that doesn't mean it encompasses his creative ability on a grand scale, hence why VINCE MCMAHON tabbed JERRY JARRETT to run WWE in case he ended up in prison and WCW reached out to him numerous times 2) the "southern" style heavily influenced everything Paul Heyman did in ECW, which in turn influenced the Attitude Era.

You should develop a greater appreciation for history.

Now let's just take a look at some of the talent in each organization at the time of their agreement.

World Class: Kerry Von Erich, Kevin Von Erich, The Freebirds, The Samoan Swat Team, Chris Adams, Terry Taylor, Iceman King Parsons, John Tatum, and Jack Victory

AWA: Curt Hennig, The Rockers, Wahoo McDaniel, Manny Fernandez, Bad Company w/DDP, The Nasty Boys, Mr Saito, Jimmy Snuka, Sgt Slaughter, and The Rock & Roll Express.

CWA: Jerry Lawler, Eddie Gilbert, Robert Fuller, Cactus Jack, Jeff Jarrett, Brickhouse Brown, Scott Steiner, Tommy Rich, Sid Vicious, Austin Idol, Bill Dundee, and Dutch Mantell

So suddenly the AWA/WCCW/CWA partnersip is strong, committed, and organized with a plan led by Jerry Jarrett. ESPN commits to produce a 2 first class TV shows to be shown on Saturday and Sunday, with reruns throughout the week, as well as produce two PPV's per year, using their strong relationship with the cable companies to secure dates and preclude any heavyhanded tactics from competitors. And Jarrett is able to convince guys who were planning to leave to stick around for just a few months longer to see what they can do...and if those guys leave, he uses the money to bring in Terry Funk, Vader, Stan Hansen, or some other free agent/Japan talent.

You can claim to have a crystal ball and that there is NOTHING to be done with any of this, no scenarios that could have done strong business during a time when wrestling was almost as hot as it would be in 1998, but you don't know that and the truth is they never tried because THEY BLEW IT!!! Which is my whole point. They had a shot to survive and they did nothing with it.

 

[spaldoni]

I don't know what JCP being in better shape has to do with anything, when they weren't running head-to-head with AWA/WCCW/CWA and had abandoned running in cities they had back in 1987 (go to history of WWE and look at their schedule, this is verifiable) and I don't know that you appreciate the brand value the AWA and World Class had through their history and affiliation with ESPN who broadcast their shows every day after school. The Showboat was where the AWA did TV's, it wasn't the extent of their road schedule. The fact that you're unsure who main evented SuperClash 3 makes me question just how knowledgeable you are about the state of wrestling in 1988.

And that "southern" brand of wrestling you seem to be deriding misses two key points 1) Jarret booked to his audience...that doesn't mean it encompasses his creative ability on a grand scale, hence why VINCE MCMAHON tabbed JERRY JARRETT to run WWE in case he ended up in prison and WCW reached out to him numerous times 2) the "southern" style heavily influenced everything Paul Heyman did in ECW, which in turn influenced the Attitude Era.

You should develop a greater appreciation for history.

Now let's just take a look at some of the talent in each organization at the time of their agreement.

World Class: Kerry Von Erich, Kevin Von Erich, The Freebirds, The Samoan Swat Team, Chris Adams, Terry Taylor, Iceman King Parsons, John Tatum, and Jack Victory

AWA: Curt Hennig, The Rockers, Wahoo McDaniel, Manny Fernandez, Bad Company w/DDP, The Nasty Boys, Mr Saito, Jimmy Snuka, Sgt Slaughter, and The Rock & Roll Express.

CWA: Jerry Lawler, Eddie Gilbert, Robert Fuller, Cactus Jack, Jeff Jarrett, Brickhouse Brown, Scott Steiner, Tommy Rich, Sid Vicious, Austin Idol, Bill Dundee, and Dutch Mantell

So suddenly the AWA/WCCW/CWA partnersip is strong, committed, and organized with a plan led by Jerry Jarrett. ESPN commits to produce a 2 first class TV shows to be shown on Saturday and Sunday, with reruns throughout the week, as well as produce two PPV's per year, using their strong relationship with the cable companies to secure dates and preclude any heavyhanded tactics from competitors. And Jarrett is able to convince guys who were planning to leave to stick around for just a few months longer to see what they can do...and if those guys leave, he uses the money to bring in Terry Funk, Vader, Stan Hansen, or some other free agent/Japan talent.

You can claim to have a crystal ball and that there is NOTHING to be done with any of this, no scenarios that could have done strong business during a time when wrestling was almost as hot as it would be in 1998, but you don't know that and the truth is they never tried because THEY BLEW IT!!! Which is my whole point. They had a shot to survive and they did nothing with it.

I really like this topic. Looking at that talent, there is no doubt they had a shot. Also with a solid ESPN deal a lot of these wrestlers would of been showcased on a national level, therefore making them pay per view and house draws. They just needed a better TV arena or a few different locations to make them look a little more global. There was money to be made. With national exposure these territory stars would of been huge. The World Champ of course would be key. I think Lawler as champion would of been good business because he would of had a variety of opponents to work with. Title defenses in Texas against the Von Erichs and Michael Hayes would of drawn sell out crowds. Going into AWA states defending against Slaughter and Snuka would of been money. In his own backyard he had familiar opponents in Idol and Dundee that would of packed houses. The AWA always had a working relationship with Japan, so there is more international exposure for Lawler. Then add in an invasion angle and you have a lot going on. This promotion would of had an easy 2 years worth of storylines. I know this is all hindsight but they did have a chance.

 

[STFU Donnie]

I really like this topic. Looking at that talent, there is no doubt they had a shot. Also with a solid ESPN deal a lot of these wrestlers would of been showcased on a national level, therefore making them pay per view and house draws. They just needed a better TV arena or a few different locations to make them look a little more global. There was money to be made. With national exposure these territory stars would of been huge. The World Champ of course would be key. I think Lawler as champion would of been good business because he would of had a variety of opponents to work with. Title defenses in Texas against the Von Erichs and Michael Hayes would of drawn sell out crowds. Going into AWA states defending against Slaughter and Snuka would of been money. In his own backyard he had familiar opponents in Idol and Dundee that would of packed houses. The AWA always had a working relationship with Japan, so there is more international exposure for Lawler. Then add in an invasion angle and you have a lot going on. This promotion would of had an easy 2 years worth of storylines. I know this is all hindsight but they did have a chance.

Thank you for getting my point. I came on this forum looking for intelligent debate and it's been so rare that I'm ready to toss in the towel, but you get exactly what I'm trying to start and I appreciate it. But let me try one more time to explain for everybody else.

I'm not saying a 3 sided AWA/WCCW/CWA invasion would have worked or made the new group viable or a huge company. I'm just saying it was the last, best shot for three territories who were actually still in business to survive and other than Kerry vs Lawler, they did nothing with it reportedly because Verne still thought he knew everything and had no intention of ceding any power and Fritz was uninterested, still holding onto his company, however blindly and absentmindedly. What I'm arguing is imagine if Verne and Fritz are both engaged and supportive of Jerry Jarrett as booker, while they remain silent partners and on air authority figures/talent.

When WCW's invasion is rebooked, most fans advocate nearly doubling WWE's payroll, stopping everything WWE was doing, which was making huge money, and instead build up guys who had driven WCW into a ditch on the offhand chance they could turn back the clock 3-4 years when WCW's name was worth something and it's stars...or what was left...could actually draw.

So anybody who advocates doing the WCW invasion differently, but says there's no conceivable way to do anything different when the AWA, WCCW, and CWA tried to work together in 1988, is not seeing the point.

 

[Makaveli31]

The Showboat was where the AWA did TV's, it wasn't the extent of their road schedule. The fact that you're unsure who main evented SuperClash 3 makes me question just how knowledgeable you are about the state of wrestling in 1988.

So you're saying the AWA were still selling out shows in 1988? You are sadly mistaken. If you read the history of the AWA their houseshow attendance was dwindling by 1988 even in the mid-west. You're right I didn't watch SuperClash 3, did you? I didn't watch the AWA, WCWA or CWA in 1988 because they were third-rate wrestling shows but I bet my knowledge of wrestling in 1988 trumps yours anyday.

1) Jarret booked to his audience...that doesn't mean it encompasses his creative ability on a grand scale, hence why VINCE MCMAHON tabbed JERRY JARRETT to run WWE in case he ended up in prison and WCW reached out to him numerous times 2) the "southern" style heavily influenced everything Paul Heyman did in ECW, which in turn influenced the Attitude Era.

I'm not deriding "southern" wrestling? Did I say anything negative about it? Please read my posts more carefully before interjecting something completely off-base. I just questioned whether it would have worked in 1988 against the more gimmicky WWF. I'm looking at the talent and time-frame. Both ECW and WWE had the talent and perfect timing to pull it off. The late-90's was very different time than the late '80's

You should develop a greater appreciation for history.

History has nothing to do with anything and like I said I probably have a greater appreciation and knowledge than you do.

World Class: Kerry Von Erich, Kevin Von Erich, The Freebirds, The Samoan Swat Team, Chris Adams, Terry Taylor, Iceman King Parsons, John Tatum, and Jack Victory

AWA: Curt Hennig, The Rockers, Wahoo McDaniel, Manny Fernandez, Bad Company w/DDP, The Nasty Boys, Mr Saito, Jimmy Snuka, Sgt Slaughter, and The Rock & Roll Express.

CWA: Jerry Lawler, Eddie Gilbert, Robert Fuller, Cactus Jack, Jeff Jarrett, Brickhouse Brown, Scott Steiner, Tommy Rich, Sid Vicious, Austin Idol, Bill Dundee, and Dutch Mantell

I didn't say there was NOTHING that could have been done but you're implying they had a show at going up against the WWF in 1988 which is asinine. Could they have survived as a third-rate wrestling promotion? Maybe. Could it have led to some interesting angles and storylines? Maybe. But the fact IS within a year Vince and Ted would have raided that "promotion" also and unless they could go up against a millionaire and a billionaire it would have made no difference.

 

[STFU Donnie]

I didn't say there was NOTHING that could have been done but you're implying they had a show at going up against the WWF in 1988 which is asinine. Could they have survived as a third-rate wrestling promotion? Maybe. Could it have led to some interesting angles and storylines? Maybe. But the fact IS within a year Vince and Ted would have raided that "promotion" also and unless they could go up against a millionaire and a billionaire it would have made no difference.

All the things you accuse me of claiming, I never did. Read what I wrote.

The whole point of my post is precisely that AWA would be done by 1990 and Fritz would end up selling World Class to Jarrett in 1989 and Jarrett would hold out for a few years, before becoming essentially WWE's 1st developmental territory and eventually shutting down.

The whole argument is that when all 3 agreed to work together, that was their last real shot. All were in bad shape business wise, but still maintained the tools (talent, TV, arena deals) to take one, final big shot and do an Invasion angle. They had no reason not to truly come together and do an invasion...but they never even tried and that was the biggest blown opportunity to do an invasion in wrestling history.

Jarrett would try to do an Invasion in 1989 once he took control of World Class, but by then much of the talent from the summer of 1988 that I listed was gone and the AWA, which would have been the linchpin, had pulled out. Nowhere did I claim doing this definitely would have worked. Nowhere did I claim they would have been anything more than the 3rd ranked promotion. All I said, was that the reality of their business which was down across the board (unlike WWE in spring 2001 and JCP in spring 1987), coupled with the resources they still had in the summer of 1988, that not coalescing and running an invasion was a much larger missed opportunity that either WWE or JCP missed from their purchases.

Had they worked as one and ran an invasion, my only argument is MAYBE they could have stayed in business longer than they did and MAYBE they could have survived the wrestling recession of the early 90's thanks to a strong partnership with ESPN and MAYBE they would have been around to ride the wave back up in the late 90's...as the smaller 3rd ranked promotion.

Your view of history seems too greatly informed by the gossip-ridden, poorly sourced newsletters, and you have not listened to the people who were actually there and in the business at the time, like Jerry Jarrett, Jerry Lawler, Greg Gagne, Eric Embry, and Robert Fuller all of whom were in positions of power to know what happened and all of whom have spoken about this time in detail. In fact, if you're knowledgeable about 1988 and what was happening in each promotion, then tell me how these 5 names fit into the equation?

 

[Makaveli31]

then maybe...and I stress maybe, there would have been a big 3 well into the 90's.

I just disagreed with that point. That's all. For the reasons that you and I stated. We seem to be in agreement on that.

could have led to the best invasion angle of all time...up to that point of course and possibly changed the course of wrestling history as we know it.

Again. I disagreed. Could it have been good? I don't know. Maybe. You start using words like "all time" and "history and I disagree. I don't think it would have been the best. Simple as that.

MAYBE they could have stayed in business longer than they did and MAYBE they could have survived the wrestling recession of the early 90's thanks to a strong partnership with ESPN and MAYBE they would have been around to ride the wave back up in the late 90's...as the smaller 3rd ranked promotion.

Who is "they"? Maybe Jarrett because Memphis is such a hotbed but certainly not Verne or Fritz. Jarrett survived a few more years with the USWA (due to partnership with Vince) but even that ended up closing by the mid '90s. By the '90's make no mistake about it. It was a two-horse race. The Monday night wars DOMINATED, it was a wave for WWF and WCW not anyone else.

Your view of history seems too greatly informed by the gossip-ridden, poorly sourced newsletters, and you have not listened to the people who were actually there and in the business at the time, like Jerry Jarrett, Jerry Lawler, Greg Gagne, Eric Embry, and Robert Fuller all of whom were in positions of power to know what happened and all of whom have spoken about this time in detail. In fact, if you're knowledgeable about 1988 and what was happening in each promotion, then tell me how these 5 names fit into the equation?

I know all about the time period in question. I wonder whether you do? What are your sources? Probably the same ones you're accusing me of reading. Do you know the facts surrounding the WCWA, CWA, and AWA cross-promotion partnership? Do you know what happened and why it ultimately failed? I don't know what your last point is?

Lawler and Jarrett were co-bookers of Continental. One would book half the year then the other would book the other half. There is no need to go over Lawler's incredible history in Memphs. The names are synonymous with Memphis wrestling.

Greg Gagne is the son of Verne Gagne.

Embry was was Dallas guy.

And Fuller worked in all three promotions at one time but it best remembered as being the leader of the Stud Stable in Memphis.

 

[STFU Donnie]

Again. I disagreed. Could it have been good? I don't know. Maybe. You start using words like "all time" and "history and I disagree. I don't think it would have been the best. Simple as that.

"could have (not WOULD HAVE) led to the best invasion angle of all time...up to that point of course (that would be 1988...not all time or all of history as you claim) and possibly changed the course of wrestling history as we know it. (a viable and small 3rd promotion into the 90's)" Like I said, you're reading things that aren't there.

Who is "they"? Maybe Jarrett because Memphis is such a hotbed but certainly not Verne or Fritz. Jarrett survived a few more years with the USWA (due to partnership with Vince) but even that ended up closing by the mid '90s. By the '90's make no mistake about it. It was a two-horse race. The Monday night wars DOMINATED, it was a wave for WWF and WCW not anyone else.

Are you even reading what I write? When the AWA/WCCW/CWA come together to co-promote, I'm saying they form a true partnership. They can divide the percentages of ownership and principles of incorporation however. The point is they agree to actually promote together and work in conjunction. I don't know that you know how territories were actually run in the 80's?

I know all about the time period in question. I wonder whether you do? What are your sources? Probably the same ones you're accusing me of reading. Do you know the facts surrounding the WCWA, CWA, and AWA cross-promotion partnership? Do you know what happened and why it ultimately failed? I don't know what your last point is?

Lawler and Jarrett were co-bookers of Continental. One would book half the year then the other would book the other half. There is no need to go over Lawler's incredible history in Memphs. The names are synonymous with Memphis wrestling.

Greg Gagne is the son of Verne Gagne.

Embry was was Dallas guy.

And Fuller worked in all three promotions at one time but it best remembered as being the leader of the Stud Stable in Memphis.

So you understand that Jarrett and Lawler were partners. But Jerry ran the business end while Lawler did his share of booking and was the top star. Jarrett has said in interviews (which I imagine are still on Youtube) that he knew the writing was on the wall and the only chance any had for survival in the long term was to partner up. He even suggested that he, Verne, and Fritz decide on a single booker to coordinate joint promotions with the bookers of each territory that would theoretically lead to a single venture together. But Verne had no interest and believed he was still a big dog and could simply use WCCW and CWA talent as he saw fit and the partnership was basically dead before it began turning into a simple talent share deal.

Greg Gagne was the voice arguing with Verne that WWE was for real and the AWA was in deep trouble. Shawn Michaels, Marty Jannetty, and Scott Hall have all talked about Greg constantly pushing Verne to change and telling him they had to change and go bigger to survive. He would have been the voice to rely on to make an invasion work. Greg was also a member of WWE's creative team in the 2000's.

Eric Embry was the booker in World Class. If you've heard him interviewed or Gary Hart, you would know that the booker ran WCCW not Fritz. Embry has talked about Fritz' only concern was keeping Kerry and Kevin stars, but he was open to partnering with Verne and Jarrett. But then Verne had to control everything and it was all about the AWA, so the deal died before it started. Theoretically Embry would have been working with Jarrett, Lawler, and Greg Gagne on booking the invasion as Jarrett kept Embry as booker in 1989 following his purchase of World Class, which would not become the USWA for another year...long after the partnership dissolved as I've already mentioned.

Robert Fuller along with his brother Ron owned and operated the CWF, yet another territory run in the Gulf Coast area, and they had a working agreement to share talent with the CWA. Fuller too has spoken about the 1988 working agreement and how initially the plan was to coordinate the three promotions, along with the CWF, and work in conjunction, since all the territories were in rough shape. He also said that Jarrett (who according to Gary Hart is his half brother) wanted to create an umbrella group with the AWA (which began in 87), the CWF (which began in 1988), and WCCW (which began in 1988) with the idea of forming a single banner, like the NWA, and eventually reach out to the other surviving territories like Oregon and Calgary.

See my last point is you haven't sought out the sources and don't even really know what they were doing in 1988, who have spoken about the very thing your dismissing without a thought.

 

[Makaveli31]

You're preaching to choir my friend. I never questioned the strategy or even the thinking. Just the execution. In fact, if you remember or read, Verne, Fritz and Jerry tried several years EARLIER to join up and gang up on Vince. They partnered with Jim Crockett (Mid-Atlantic) and Ole Anderson (Georgia) to form Pro Wrestling USA. That adventure lasted only a few months before imploding.

I would think that "invasion" angle would be much more interesting than the 1988 version. WCCW, CWA ,and AWA were still at or near their primes PLUS you had two of the hottest territories in Mid-Atlantic and Georgia. They had DOUBLE the roster size plus you want talk about booking minds?!? IF the various promoters were able to put aside their differences I think Pro Wrestling USA COULD have changed the course of the business. I think THAT was real blown invasion angle.

I'm not dismissing their alliance in 1988. If you want to argue that was their ONLY shot at surviving I'm with you. BUT, I don't think it could have staved off the reality that WCW and WWF were the two powerhouses by that time and everyone else was fish feed. Could they lasted a few more years? Sure. Could they have morphed into what would be eventually the USWA? Sure. But what would be the ultimate goal?

I just don't feel we were robbed of anything by Verne Fritz ans Jerry not running an Invasion angle by '88 and '89.

Now '84 with JCP and GCW was a different story altogether.

Just my two cents.

 

[STFU Donnie]

You're preaching to choir my friend. I never questioned the strategy or even the thinking. Just the execution. In fact, if you remember or read, Verne, Fritz and Jerry tried several years EARLIER to join up and gang up on Vince. They partnered with Jim Crockett (Mid-Atlantic) and Ole Anderson (Georgia) to form Pro Wrestling USA. That adventure lasted only a few months before imploding.

I would think that "invasion" angle would be much more interesting than the 1988 version. WCCW, CWA ,and AWA were still at or near their primes PLUS you had two of the hottest territories in Mid-Atlantic and Georgia. They had DOUBLE the roster size plus you want talk about booking minds?!? IF the various promoters were able to put aside their differences I think Pro Wrestling USA COULD have changed the course of the business. I think THAT was real blown invasion angle.

I'm not dismissing their alliance in 1988. If you want to argue that was their ONLY shot at surviving I'm with you. BUT, I don't think it could have staved off the reality that WCW and WWF were the two powerhouses by that time and everyone else was fish feed. Could they lasted a few more years? Sure. Could they have morphed into what would be eventually the USWA? Sure. But what would be the ultimate goal?

I just don't feel we were robbed of anything by Verne Fritz ans Jerry not running an Invasion angle by '88 and '89.

Now '84 with JCP and GCW was a different story altogether.

Just my two cents.

That's absolutely fair enough and I'm totally on board with the Pro Wrestling USA deal. I think the one thing that sticks in my head is that whether it's Pro Wrestling USA or UWF/JCP or WWE/WCW, the one thing I find defensible in each potential invasions failure is the idea that if a company is succeeding (a relative term I know), then it's easy to see why one would be reticent to make huge changes. I think that's the nature in almost every business, where the tendency is to be reactive rather than proactive.

With hindsight being 20/20, it's easy to see that Pro Wrestling USA was absolutely the best chance the territories had for survival, but it's just as easy to see why Jim Crockett would see full houses with his crew of Flair, Dusty, Magnum, etc and ask himself if he really needed to work with Verne Gagne or any other promoter. And if I'm Verne Gagne and I see my business dropping, but I've seen it drop before only to come back up, and just a few years earlier I was in business with CBS, it's easy to see why he would not seen the need to work with Crockett or any other promoter.

To me that's why I can defend so many failed invasions because I can see why a successful promoter would balk at drastic change or taking time away from the guys the had that were draws or who he believed he could turn into a draw and control all by himself. And it's also why I CAN'T defend what was left in 1988 NOT seeing their days were absolutely numbered and trying to do something big and/or revolutionary to change the course of history. Whether a 3-sided invasion in 1988 would have worked and changed history? I'd say 70/30 against success, but who knows, especially since I think their survival without it was 99/1, a fact they all had to know after 4 Wrestlemanias, LJN dolls in every toy store, etc. And as the very first target of WWE's expansion, Verne had to know.

Either way, it's fun to talk about the old days and debate...Have a good one!

 

[spaldoni]

This was a fun topic and debate. It was original and a lot of great points were made. I still agree they had a window and should of banded together. The writing was on the wall so why not pull out all the resources and go for it. They had nothing to lose. I'm not saying they should of went to war with Vince but rather focus on staying competitive, showcase a great product and remain in business. Verne, Jarrett, and Von Erich all had a passion for the business and that should of been the motivation. If they united under one banner and even brought in other territories to join, I think they had a chance. Anyways this was a lot of fun. Thanks for the post.

 

[Makaveli31]

And if I'm Verne Gagne and I see my business dropping, but I've seen it drop before only to come back up, and just a few years earlier I was in business with CBS, it's easy to see why he would not seen the need to work with Crockett or any other promoter.

It must have been a bitter pill to swallow if you're Verne Gagne. He was never part of the "good ole boys" network like Fritz and Jerry. He was successful decades doing things his way and with himself on top. I honestly think he would have rather folded the AWA than have it absorbed by Crockett or Jarrett or even Vince. He was that much of a competitor. Speaking of Verne, can you think of a more catastrophic blunder than letting Hogan slip away from your grasp??! That's like trading away Michael Jordan. But Verne was stubborn which ultimately led to his promotion's demise. I don't know if you know about Kayfabe Memories but they great articles on the old school territories and cover the whole CWA/WCCW/AWA angle. Interesting read.

Either way, it's fun to talk about the old days and debate...Have a good one!

Yes. Thank GOD for WWE classics on demand!! U too!!

 

[justtxyank]

The idea that WCW was locked in as the #2 promotion for sure in the 90s is a myth. Sure, at the end of the 1980s it looked like Turner's promotion was going to be the threat to the WWF, but as the early 1990s started, business collapsed for WCW and Ted Turner even considered shutting the promotion down prior to Hulk Hogan's arrival. Flair would jump ship along with a lot of other WCW mid card stars. There's no reason that a well run, well financed promotion with a good roster couldn't have stepped in and become the 2nd half of the big 2 instead of WCW.

Edit: Heck, WCW even reached out to the USWA for a working agreement before the WWF did and wanted to use Jerry Lawler to give credibility back to the world title. They had an agreement and then Lawler decided he wasn't interested in putting over Luger. Heck, WCW wasn't even a national promotion anymore by 91 and wouldn't be again until 95.

 

[Makaveli31]

The idea that WCW was locked in as the #2 promotion for sure in the 90s is a myth.

No that's pretty much fact. Who else was there? If you were a professional wrestler in the early '90's you had two options...WCW and the WWF. I think that's a factual statement.

but as the early 1990s started, business collapsed for WCW and Ted Turner even considered shutting the promotion down prior to Hulk Hogan's arrival.

I wouldn't say they collapsed. They weren't lighting the world on fire but they were still turning a profit. They didn't run any live TV shows, they had a taped Saturday Night show and barely ran any house shows. Their expenses were minimal. If Turner didn't want to pull the plug when there were bleeding dollars in the late '90's early 00's I find it hard to believe he would wanted to pull it in the early 90's when they were not in the red.

Flair would jump ship along with a lot of other WCW mid card stars.

But some came back also plus you had WWF stars jumping ship also. It was a revolving door,

There's no reason that a well run, well financed promotion with a good roster couldn't have stepped in and become the 2nd half of the big 2 instead of WCW.

An example of one? That's wishful thinking there. A well-run, well financed promotion probably could have overtook the WWF too!!

Heck, WCW wasn't even a national promotion anymore by 91 and wouldn't be again until 95.

Uh...yeah I think they were national by that time....

 

[justtxyank]

No that's pretty much fact. Who else was there? If you were a professional wrestler in the early '90's you had two options...WCW and the WWF. I think that's a factual statement.

No, obviously that is how it turned out. I don't dispute that. I'm just saying that in 1991 there was nothing to indicate that WCW was going to be a big time player going forward.

I wouldn't say they collapsed. They weren't lighting the world on fire but they were still turning a profit. They didn't run any live TV shows, they had a taped Saturday Night show and barely ran any house shows. Their expenses were minimal. If Turner didn't want to pull the plug when there were bleeding dollars in the late '90's early 00's I find it hard to believe he would wanted to pull it in the early 90's when they were not in the red.

They were giving away tickets just to seat 4000 people in Georgia.

But some came back also plus you had WWF stars jumping ship also. It was a revolving door,

Not many were jumping to WCW by choice at this point. The revolving door didn't start until Bischoff took control and was able to use blank checks. Prior to that most of the defection went one way. WCW couldn't keep their stars, save for Sting.

An example of one? That's wishful thinking there. A well-run, well financed promotion probably could have overtook the WWF too!!

No of course there isn't an example, because there isn't one. It was a hypothetical statement. WCW survived a really rough spot mainly because there wasn't any competition left in the South. Had there been it is likely that WCW would have died by 1993.

Uh...yeah I think they were national by that time....

Nope. They mostly did shows in Mid-Atlantic and Southern states and did bad attendance there. It was a really rough time for WCW in 91-94. Sting has talked about this at length before.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The idea that WCW was locked in as the #2 promotion for sure in the 90s is a myth. Sure, at the end of the 1980s it looked like Turner's promotion was going to be the threat to the WWF, but as the early 1990s started, business collapsed for WCW and Ted Turner even considered shutting the promotion down prior to Hulk Hogan's arrival. Flair would jump ship along with a lot of other WCW mid card stars. There's no reason that a well run, well financed promotion with a good roster couldn't have stepped in and become the 2nd half of the big 2 instead of WCW.

Edit: Heck, WCW even reached out to the USWA for a working agreement before the WWF did and wanted to use Jerry Lawler to give credibility back to the world title. They had an agreement and then Lawler decided he wasn't interested in putting over Luger. Heck, WCW wasn't even a national promotion anymore by 91 and wouldn't be again until 95.

Not true. First, business in both WCW and WWE started declining badly post 1990, WCW was poorly run and WWE was teribly stale.

What WCW had and always maintained was the loyal NWA audience. They werent watching WWE and never would, anytime WCW got interesting that audience increased.

WCW ratings during their darkest hours (1991-1993 when Flair was in WWE) were still twice what TNA gets today.

As far as being a national promotion, WCW was broadcast all over the country and still did International Business as well during those early 90's dark days as they're called. As far as touring is concerned, WWE wasnt travelng nationwide near as much post 1993 either, most of their dwindling house show business was focussed on the North East and parts of Canada where they were traditionall strong.

Also, during the Federal Steriod Investigation, there have been numerous books, etc that stated Ted Turner made overtures to The McMahons about Turner Broadcasting buying WWE as their numbers were plummeting and there was some doubt about wether or not Vince would get jail time. The McMahons turned him down.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Crockett had two reasons not to join with the other promoters...One, for most of the 80s he was doing big business and WWE couldnt outdraw him in GA,, NC, SC, Ky, Tenn, and struggled to top him in Missouri, Fla, plus he was doing good business in Pgh & Phila, two main WWE cities.

Second, Crockett was trying to do the same thing Vince was doing, put the smaller promotions under, steal their territory, sign their talent. Crockett was not a hero fighting off evil Vince, Crockett was fighting Vince but only because they were both try9ing to do the same thing.

Crockett had a better roster talent wise than WWE, and put on better shows overall during this time. He lacked Vince's sophistication in TV production and promotion. He also lacked Vince's patience, WWE didnt invade a rival territory and start running shows there every month, they would hold a super show, making it like a special event, and if it drew well, they would wait a few months, wet the appetitite of the audience, then return with another Super Show. Crockett wanted to run shows all over the continental US monthly and travel expenses were astronomical, plus the uniqueness of his brand wore off in rival cities when he was there every 3-5 weeks. Vince was smart enough not to fall into this trap, he kept his live events fresh by making occassional appearances, hyped as big deals, in rival markets while saturating the local market with his TV programming, making money off the syndication while controlling his travel expenses, focussing most of his touring in his own home market.

There is simply no way the smaller promotions could have banded together, with or without Crockett, to stave off Vince. By 1988 we were already in a Two Company system where the only viable promotions were NWA & WWE. Most of the top talent from the other promotions had already jumped ship to those two brands. Any earlier, say 1986 for example, Crockett was doing too much business to consider it. Finally, politics gets involved. Crockett's show was bigger nationally thanks to TBS than anything Mid South, AWA, World Class, etc had. The promoters would have had to recognize their stars werent going to be pushed ahead of Flair, The Horsemen, Luger, Sting, Dusty, The Road Warriors, Barry Whyndam, etc...maybe a handfull of chosen talent would rise to their level but for the most part the smaller promotions didnt have people on a national scale that could compete with the top tier of the NWA roster. It's hard to imagine the promoters wilingly taking 2nd fiddle like that and being able to sell it to their talent.

 

[FlairFan2003]

You should develop a greater appreciation for history.

Now let's just take a look at some of the talent in each organization at the time of their agreement.

World Class: Kerry Von Erich, Kevin Von Erich, The Freebirds, The Samoan Swat Team, Chris Adams, Terry Taylor, Iceman King Parsons, John Tatum, and Jack Victory

AWA: Curt Hennig, The Rockers, Wahoo McDaniel, Manny Fernandez, Bad Company w/DDP, The Nasty Boys, Mr Saito, Jimmy Snuka, Sgt Slaughter, and The Rock & Roll Express.

CWA: Jerry Lawler, Eddie Gilbert, Robert Fuller, Cactus Jack, Jeff Jarrett, Brickhouse Brown, Scott Steiner, Tommy Rich, Sid Vicious, Austin Idol, Bill Dundee, and Dutch Mantell

.

The Rockers were not in the AWA in 1988, they left at the beginning of that year for WWE. By the end of that year they were wrestling WWE house shows vs Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson.

The Freebirds were not in the AWA in 1988. They had already left and joined the UWF by 1986, Michael Hayes stayed and joined Crockett after JCP bought out the UWF, Terry Gordy went to Japan. I actually attended a 1987 JCP house show where The Freebirds wrestled and a 1988 house show where Hayes faced Ric Flair for the title.

Curt Henning also was not in AWA in 1988. He had joined WWE and was under his "Mr Perfect" gimmick by then. His last hurrah in the AWA was in mid 1987 when they gave him a World Title run, he left right after.

The Rock & Roll Express were never in the AWA. They were NWA stallworts from 1985 on, in 1988 they were still wrestling for JCP. After the team broke up Ricky Morton would stay with JCP for a few years as a singles wrestler before they reformed the team in the mid 90s.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Curt Henning also was not in AWA in 1988. He had joined WWE and was under his "Mr Perfect" gimmick by then. His last hurrah in the AWA was in mid 1987 when they gave him a World Title run, he left right after.

The Rock & Roll Express were never in the AWA. They were NWA stallworts from 1985 on, in 1988 they were still wrestling for JCP. After the team broke up Ricky Morton would stay with JCP for a few years as a singles wrestler before they reformed the team in the mid 90s.

Nope. Curt Hennig was still in the AWA up until about June of 1988. He dropped the title to Jerry Lawler in May. The Rock N' Roll Express actually had a few matches with the Midnight Rockers for the AWA Tag Team Titles, but they were part of the CWA, at the time.

That brings me to my thought on this particular invasion angle, and the viability of AWA/WCCW/CWA in general. By 1987, AWA was sucking wind, as was WCWA (WCCW). Their big events, Parade of Champions, SuperClash, etc, were drawing less than 10,000 people. If you think about it, things were just moving far too quickly for these promotions to deal. Guys like Von Erich and Gagne had spent years building their promotions and their fan bases, and it eroded in the space of about 2 to 3 years. In addition, the partnerships between AWA/CWA/WCWA around this time required a consolidation, and pooling of resources, rather than sharing talent, and the egos involved were not going to ever let that happen. There was no consistency in the storylines. Feuds would be started and then dropped as wrestlers departed for the WWF. Lawler was a weak champion anywhere except for Memphis, IMO. The whole thing was just a mess.

I think the only way it would've been successful is if the consolidation had started around 1986, before the loss of talent and particularly before the tragedies that befell the WCCW.

 

[STFU Donnie]

The Rockers were not in the AWA in 1988, they left at the beginning of that year for WWE. By the end of that year they were wrestling WWE house shows vs Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson.

The Freebirds were not in the AWA in 1988. They had already left and joined the UWF by 1986, Michael Hayes stayed and joined Crockett after JCP bought out the UWF, Terry Gordy went to Japan. I actually attended a 1987 JCP house show where The Freebirds wrestled and a 1988 house show where Hayes faced Ric Flair for the title.

Curt Henning also was not in AWA in 1988. He had joined WWE and was under his "Mr Perfect" gimmick by then. His last hurrah in the AWA was in mid 1987 when they gave him a World Title run, he left right after.

The Rock & Roll Express were never in the AWA. They were NWA stallworts from 1985 on, in 1988 they were still wrestling for JCP. After the team broke up Ricky Morton would stay with JCP for a few years as a singles wrestler before they reformed the team in the mid 90s.

You're just wrong on all accounts.

The AWA/CWA working agreement began in 1987 and World Class would come on board in late summer 1988. Now I didn't think I needed to explain the "fantasy" of this invasion, but I guess I do.

You know how when people talk about how the WCW invasion of WWE they talk about ponying up huge dollars to get WCW's top guys and then pretend like WWE's top guys wouldn't demand even more money than those guys. You know how the fantasy ignores that WCW top guys knew they could just make huge money for doing nothing for a year...AND then come back and work on top without the stink of WCW (and I'm a WCW guy...who's honest). And of course you notice in the fantasy that Vince was expected to put WCW's guys over strong, while the WWE guys would smile and just go along and not try to bury guys who could take their spots once the invasion was played out. See, I'm making similar GIANT leaps of faith to make the argument of what might have been had the AWA/WCCW/CWA invasion been done perfectly.

Alright, so you understand the WHOLE POINT of this is that Jarrett, Gagne, Von Erich blew it, but in the FANTASY if they had been smart and willing to work perfectly together, then that would include either an investment on their part or from new partners like ESPN...money which would be used wisely, like on talent. And in the Fantasy, because they are working together and have a big vision and some cash to splash around, they are able to convince guys who would be leaving to stick around just a few months with some big promises...and the guys actually agree to stick around.

Curt Hennig and The Rockers were with the AWA through the early summer of 1988. The AWA/CWA deal was already in place and conversations with Fritz had occurred. Curt and The Rockers were absolutely in play to be convinced to stick around.

The Freebirds were in WCCW, not the AWA or JCP. Terry Gordy and Buddy Roberts left Crockett after the Bash 87 tour and Hayes would join them in the Spring of 1988. It was during the Summer of 88, that WCCW did the Freebirds breakup angle, with Terry and Buddy turning on Michael.

The Rock & Roll Express was fired by Dusty at the start of 1988 and Ricky and Robert returned to Tennessee, eventually going to the AWA to work the Rockers in the Spring, staying through the summer, until Dusty brought them back in the fall, before letting them go again.

So in the fantasy, all the guys are already in either in AWA/WCCCW/CWA or were about to leave. All of this is easily verifiable if you still don't believe me.

 

[spaldoni]

I don't know what JCP being in better shape has to do with anything, when they weren't running head-to-head with AWA/WCCW/CWA and had abandoned running in cities they had back in 1987 (go to history of WWE and look at their schedule, this is verifiable) and I don't know that you appreciate the brand value the AWA and World Class had through their history and affiliation with ESPN who broadcast their shows every day after school. The Showboat was where the AWA did TV's, it wasn't the extent of their road schedule. The fact that you're unsure who main evented SuperClash 3 makes me question just how knowledgeable you are about the state of wrestling in 1988.

And that "southern" brand of wrestling you seem to be deriding misses two key points 1) Jarret booked to his audience...that doesn't mean it encompasses his creative ability on a grand scale, hence why VINCE MCMAHON tabbed JERRY JARRETT to run WWE in case he ended up in prison and WCW reached out to him numerous times 2) the "southern" style heavily influenced everything Paul Heyman did in ECW, which in turn influenced the Attitude Era.

You should develop a greater appreciation for history.

Now let's just take a look at some of the talent in each organization at the time of their agreement.

World Class: Kerry Von Erich, Kevin Von Erich, The Freebirds, The Samoan Swat Team, Chris Adams, Terry Taylor, Iceman King Parsons, John Tatum, and Jack Victory

AWA: Curt Hennig, The Rockers, Wahoo McDaniel, Manny Fernandez, Bad Company w/DDP, The Nasty Boys, Mr Saito, Jimmy Snuka, Sgt Slaughter, and The Rock & Roll Express.

CWA: Jerry Lawler, Eddie Gilbert, Robert Fuller, Cactus Jack, Jeff Jarrett, Brickhouse Brown, Scott Steiner, Tommy Rich, Sid Vicious, Austin Idol, Bill Dundee, and Dutch Mantell

So suddenly the AWA/WCCW/CWA partnersip is strong, committed, and organized with a plan led by Jerry Jarrett. ESPN commits to produce a 2 first class TV shows to be shown on Saturday and Sunday, with reruns throughout the week, as well as produce two PPV's per year, using their strong relationship with the cable companies to secure dates and preclude any heavyhanded tactics from competitors. And Jarrett is able to convince guys who were planning to leave to stick around for just a few months longer to see what they can do...and if those guys leave, he uses the money to bring in Terry Funk, Vader, Stan Hansen, or some other free agent/Japan talent.

You can claim to have a crystal ball and that there is NOTHING to be done with any of this, no scenarios that could have done strong business during a time when wrestling was almost as hot as it would be in 1998, but you don't know that and the truth is they never tried because THEY BLEW IT!!! Which is my whole point. They had a shot to survive and they did nothing with it.

Here's a question for you. Let's say all the talent mentioned above is available for Superclash 3. How would you book the card? This would be a crucial pay per view event. What would you do? I would love to read your ideas and I'll work on the card as well.

 

[TreeofWoe]

Alright, so you understand the WHOLE POINT of this is that Jarrett, Gagne, Von Erich blew it, but in the FANTASY if they had been smart and willing to work perfectly together, then that would include either an investment on their part or from new partners like ESPN...money which would be used wisely, like on talent. .

Well, not exactly. If you read "These guys have all the fun. The history of ESPN". The network only picked up wrestling to fill time, much like Aussie Rules Football. They went with WCCW and AWA because it was cheap programing that they could run whenever they wanted. There was no plan to ever feature or promote either long term. In fact some of the executives from that time are qouted as almost being embarrased to have wrasslin on ESPN.

I would have liked to see an invasion type angle at that time, I just don't know how effective it was ever going to be. I would be more in line with a faction formed from all 3 promotions that would kind of dominate all 3. I think that might have worked better, and helped ease the pettyness between them.