The Problems With WWE vs. TNA | WrestleZone Forums

The Problems With WWE vs. TNA

Tyler44

Pre-Show Stalwart
We all loved the Monday Night Wars. It was great and exciting. Both shows were putting out top quality shows week in and week out and ppvs were fresh and entertaining. That was years ago, we are now in the current year 2010. Quite frankly, I'm not buying it. I'm really not excited by this anymore and not entertained. It worked back then, why isn't it cool anymore? Why isn't this popular or fun anymore? Let me answer that. The fan base sucks. That is one problem with WWE vs. TNA. No longer is there really an "atmosphere" in the building. No longer is there mind-blowing events happening on these programs to make a fan want to go and tell a non-fan and make that fan become so impatient in the 1 week wait till the next episode. Watching the shows, the fans aren't loud and don't seem excited. The live crowd is a huge tool in creating the scene, but when that live crowd consists of little kids and their parents, it's not enjoyable or believable. I like hearing huge pops when the big stars come out, not half booing and half cheering. I really think wrestling entertainment has become kind of old now. It seems overused and boring and is not heading in the right direction. Is it because I'm getting older? Maybe. But please tell me if you sit through these programs and say to yourselves "Wow, this is entertaining." To sum up everything I'm saying, WWE is catering to kids and heading in the wrong direction, and TNA is catering to older adults and just used old scenarios that were entertaining 12 years ago. Stars aren't developed well enough at all and the live crowds suck. Wrestling entertainment seems to be losing it's touch which is surprising because if you think about it, technology is so advanced now and you would think that the writers could come up with some unbelievable and cool material, but they just don't. The WWE vs. TNA idea would work if the fans and writers were into it as they once were, but sadly, they aren't.

*Sorry I didn't write a perfect essay using paragraphs and all. I'm sure these threads have been done to death, but this thread is meant to spark a discussion. I don't want to search for a thread that hasn't been posted on for 4 weeks so instead, I started my own with my thoughts.
 
We all loved the Monday Night Wars. It was great and exciting. Both shows were putting out top quality shows week in and week out and ppvs were fresh and entertaining. That was years ago, we are now in the current year 2010. Quite frankly, I'm not buying it. I'm really not excited by this anymore and not entertained. It worked back then, why isn't it cool anymore? Why isn't this popular or fun anymore? Let me answer that. The fan base sucks. That is one problem with WWE vs. TNA. No longer is there really an "atmosphere" in the building. No longer is there mind-blowing events happening on these programs to make a fan want to go and tell a non-fan and make that fan become so impatient in the 1 week wait till the next episode. Watching the shows, the fans aren't loud and don't seem excited. The live crowd is a huge tool in creating the scene, but when that live crowd consists of little kids and their parents, it's not enjoyable or believable. I like hearing huge pops when the big stars come out, not half booing and half cheering. I really think wrestling entertainment has become kind of old now. It seems overused and boring and is not heading in the right direction. Is it because I'm getting older? Maybe. But please tell me if you sit through these programs and say to yourselves "Wow, this is entertaining." To sum up everything I'm saying, WWE is catering to kids and heading in the wrong direction, and TNA is catering to older adults and just used old scenarios that were entertaining 12 years ago. Stars aren't developed well enough at all and the live crowds suck. Wrestling entertainment seems to be losing it's touch which is surprising because if you think about it, technology is so advanced now and you would think that the writers could come up with some unbelievable and cool material, but they just don't. The WWE vs. TNA idea would work if the fans and writers were into it as they once were, but sadly, they aren't.

*Sorry I didn't write a perfect essay using paragraphs and all. I'm sure these threads have been done to death, but this thread is meant to spark a discussion. I don't want to search for a thread that hasn't been posted on for 4 weeks so instead, I started my own with my thoughts.

So you're trying to blame other fans for not liking the WWE or TNA products? That's a complete cop out. My like or dislike of something is based only on me alone, not what the fan sitting next to me might think or want to see. I can't imagine any real fan basing like or dislike of what's going on in wrestling on other fans. Fuck the other fans and enjoy the show.

Also, the whole PG bashing is really getting old, partially because it's not accurate. All you have to do is look up the demographics for Raw, for instance, and you'd see that about 62% of the audience is male and that nearly 80% of that male audience lies somewhere between the ages of 18 and 49. These demos are roughly the same as those that watch TNA. The WWE doesn't cater to kids, they simply put on a program that people of just about any age can watch. Quite frankly, I don't see a problem, but that's just me.

Maybe you're just burned out on wrestling. It happened to me for a while back in 2005 and I stopped watching it for a while.
 
So you're trying to blame other fans for not liking the WWE or TNA products? That's a complete cop out. My like or dislike of something is based only on me alone, not what the fan sitting next to me might think or want to see. I can't imagine any real fan basing like or dislike of what's going on in wrestling on other fans. Fuck the other fans and enjoy the show.

Also, the whole PG bashing is really getting old, partially because it's not accurate. All you have to do is look up the demographics for Raw, for instance, and you'd see that about 62% of the audience is male and that nearly 80% of that male audience lies somewhere between the ages of 18 and 49. These demos are roughly the same as those that watch TNA. The WWE doesn't cater to kids, they simply put on a program that people of just about any age can watch. Quite frankly, I don't see a problem, but that's just me.

Maybe you're just burned out on wrestling. It happened to me for a while back in 2005 and I stopped watching it for a while.

You have mis-interpreted my point on the live crowd. For example, when Triple H returned back in I beleive 02 to that HUGE ovation, did that reaction make you more tuned into the show? Did it make you actually feel something to hear the crowd erupt like that? It sure made that point memorable to me. Now how about when Triple H returned in 07'. The live crowd did not give a shit, so it was hard for me to get behind and actually want to cheer. What I'm trying to say is that the live crowd helps create the atmosphere that I watch on the live show. If there was 100 fans in the crowd instead of 54,000 fans, don't you think you wouldn't really feel it?
 
Fans can add to a match or angel for sure but, personally, if it's a good angle I don't care if they crap all over it. If I like it I'll still tell people to watch it.

I think the problem with wrestling fans nowadays is because of the Monday Night Wars so, to an extent, I agree with the OP in that they saw so much new and crazy stuff that it's hard to go back once you've crossed that line. Case in point after the Taker Vs Mankind HIAC in 98 it kind of set the bar as to expecting crazy falls in HIAC matches and now they're not doing that sort of thing the crowd are harder to pop.

I would deffo say that the OP seems a bit burned out on wrestling, happens to the best of us.
 
Fans can add to a match or angel for sure but, personally, if it's a good angle I don't care if they crap all over it. If I like it I'll still tell people to watch it.

I think the problem with wrestling fans nowadays is because of the Monday Night Wars so, to an extent, I agree with the OP in that they saw so much new and crazy stuff that it's hard to go back once you've crossed that line. Case in point after the Taker Vs Mankind HIAC in 98 it kind of set the bar as to expecting crazy falls in HIAC matches and now they're not doing that sort of thing the crowd are harder to pop.

I would deffo say that the OP seems a bit burned out on wrestling, happens to the best of us.

Exactly. Matches and storylines were set to such a great high that we were treated to great suspense, stories, and matches told by actual entertaining wrestlers in the ring. Nowadays (as you said), we don't see any of this anymore and we still expect some of these great matches. But on your first point, what how many good angles have we seen in the last 3 years that had a good beginning, good matches, good story, and good ending? Off the top of my head, I can remember HBK and Undertaker. That's it.

To respond to Jack Hammers second point about the PG era, here is my response. Alright, just because the demographics tell statistics, that still doesn't mean WWE isn't catering to little kids. 18 years will still watch both programs. Also the PG era bashing may be old, but it is a valid reason and problem with this business. In the years, we have seen huge changes that make WWE look like they are catering to children. For example, the use of strong and violent language has been reduced to pretty much 0%. The use of blood has been reduced as well (AIDS plays into this as well though). Hardcore matches are no longer hardcore. Childish gimmicks have overrun RAW in ridiculous fashion (you cannot say Hornswoggle has not been overdone). Those are a few examples. Now you may say WWE is cutting down hardcore matches and dangerous spots due to the safety of these individuals, well that leads into my point of WWE losing it's edge. You may call me now ignorant and inconsiderate for wanting these people to bleed and put their body at risk, well guess what, they chose to be in this business. It's their life choice and they should be prepared for these matches.
 
Why is the Monday Night War not interesting? Because this isn't a war. Impact isn't getting ratings at the level ECW on TNN was getting in 2000 if I remember right. WWE is so far and away ahead of TNA that it's not even close to funny. It has zero to do with wrestling fans. There is no competion at this point and there isn't going to be for a very long time. Raw got over three times the rating TNA got last week and TNA had its highest rating in months while Raw was a bad rating. What does that tell me? That this isn't close at all and it's not going to be close. You can blame the fans all you want, but this isn't their fault.
 
Exactly. Matches and storylines were set to such a great high that we were treated to great suspense, stories, and matches told by actual entertaining wrestlers in the ring. Nowadays (as you said), we don't see any of this anymore and we still expect some of these great matches. But on your first point, what how many good angles have we seen in the last 3 years that had a good beginning, good matches, good story, and good ending? Off the top of my head, I can remember HBK and Undertaker. That's it.

To respond to Jack Hammers second point about the PG era, here is my response. Alright, just because the demographics tell statistics, that still doesn't mean WWE isn't catering to little kids. 18 years will still watch both programs. Also the PG era bashing may be old, but it is a valid reason and problem with this business. In the years, we have seen huge changes that make WWE look like they are catering to children. For example, the use of strong and violent language has been reduced to pretty much 0%. The use of blood has been reduced as well (AIDS plays into this as well though). Hardcore matches are no longer hardcore. Childish gimmicks have overrun RAW in ridiculous fashion (you cannot say Hornswoggle has not been overdone). Those are a few examples. Now you may say WWE is cutting down hardcore matches and dangerous spots due to the safety of these individuals, well that leads into my point of WWE losing it's edge. You may call me now ignorant and inconsiderate for wanting these people to bleed and put their body at risk, well guess what, they chose to be in this business. It's their life choice and they should be prepared for these matches.

I really hate when people use the PG era as an arguement, because when you look at it the logic behind it is flawed. The reason they went PG is because they KNOW that they are losing their fanbase. We, as the old generation of wrestling fans, are starting to find other interests(MMA/Pro Sports/starting families/etc) and we stop ordering PPV as much, quit tuning in to their tv shows every week, and stop buying merchandise. But much as they did back in the 80's when most of us became hooked, and again in the 90's when the younger end of our generation was starting to get into wrestling, WWE had to change. They were PG when Hulk Hogan told us to say our prayers/eat our vitamins. They were PG when we watched Lex Luger slam Yokozuna on the Red, White and Blue tour. They were PG when Roddy Piper cracked Jimmy Snuka in the head with a coconut on Piper's Pit. They didn't start being rated TV 14 until DX/Austin/Ministry/Rock became popular. Why did they change? The older audience had left and they needed to adapt to their new audience. Hip Hop/Grunge/Rock had become the new thing and it was edgy. WWE had to match what was popular to keep their fanbase. When ECW started going Xtreme and WWE/WCW saw how popular people getting the shit kicked out of them was, they started doing hardcore matches/chair shots to the head/HIAC/etc.
Now, in the year 2010, our generation of wrestling fans is starting to become burnt out. I have been a constant fan since 1985 when I was a year old. I got burnt out around 1999-2000 and took a step back for about 6 months or so. I still watched occasionally, but if I missed a show it was no big deal. When I came back, I found my love for the business again and I haven't missed a WWE show since and since TNA went to Spike I haven't missed a show their either. I see the same exact problems in both companies, and none of them have anything to do with their rating for viewing. Both problems stem from a creative standpoint. TNA likes to jump around in their story arch. They will start a program, put it on hold for a week or 2, and then suddenly pick that program back up again without explanation. So for example a few weeks ago they had AJ/Pope doing their angle and if I was a new fan and saw this I might say I want to see where this goes, so I'll watch next week. But the next week they had Pope going against Desmond Wolfe and AJ fighting Jeff Hardy with no mention of the Pope/AJ story. If I wasn't into the AJ/Hardy program(which I wansn't because I can't stand Jeff Hardy when he is left to his own devices) I may decide it was a one off thing and change the channel. WWE doesn't have this issue. Problem is, sometimes they OVERDO a program. What I mean is you had Cena/Batista leading up to Mania. If you were a new fan, you might of liked the build the fued was getting(which if you actually watched it, Batista made you HATE him and made you WANT Cena to overcome the odds) and wanted to follow the fued. But if you watched the rest of Raw they mention it 3 more times, 2 on NXT, and 5 times on Smackdown. Rinse and repeat for the 3-4 weeks leading up to the PPV. By the time you get to the show, alot of people might be sick of the fued. That happens alot, but that is what happens when creative can't come up with enough stuff to fill a show with enough things that they don't HAVE to keep doing recaps all the time. Smackdown has recently gotten much better at this, and it shows in the quality of the show they put on. Both shows are rated PG, but Smackdown makes better use of their talent and the writers honestly seem like they care more. The announcers do a better job of putting over the talent, while still calling the mach. That doesn't happen on Raw, and alot of times doesn't happen in TNA. That is the difference between the promotions. Their production/writing/etc. NOT their rating.

ps, I do agree with you guys that a good, hot crowd can make an event. That is why Wrestlemania should only be allowed in New York, Chicago, Montreal, Toronto, Houston, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Miami, and Los Angeles...Those crowds show up and make the event 100X better in the process.
 
For example, when Triple H returned back in I beleive 02 to that HUGE ovation, did that reaction make you more tuned into the show?

No, i simply continued to think, 'Great, the biggest ******** of the whole lot is back again. Get ready for another year of 'HHH this.....' and 'HHH that....', which thanks to Hogan's (alleged) politicking, was nipped in the bud before it could even take off.

(Referencing the fact that HHH returned in '02, got a 'Welcome back' title win, lost it immediately to Hogan, who in turn lost it immediately to 'Taker, who, arguably, went on to have probably his best title reign, lol)

As much as i understand where you're coming from in terms of the crowd's reactions, i don't feel it impacts a match on TV as much as you're suggesting. There's been plenty of PPV discussions on this forum where several people have commented on a very entertaining show, but at the same time commented on the live audiences apparent total lack of interest.

I think the live audiences' reactions can add to a match, i don't personally think it can take away from a match.
 
i think the biggest problem is that they haven't been able to create stars well.

in the hulkamania era, you had guys like hogan, savage, warrior, andre, dibiase, mr perfect, rick rude, junkyard dog, roddy pipper, jake roberts.. all of whom were legit stars. mid-card guys like hacksaw and honky tonk man were also very popular, as were nwa/wcw guys like flair and dusty.

in the new generation era, you had guys like bret hart, shawn michaels, razor ramon, diesel, lex luger, tatanka, yokozuna, undertaker, owen hart, british bulldog, bam bam.. and even though business was down, they still seemed like legit stars.

in the attitude era, you had guys like the rock and steve austin while wcw had guys just as popular like goldberg and sting.. not to mention the other wrestlers from this time period like triple h, mick foley, kane, big show, chris jericho, kurt angle.. all of whom were legit stars.

since the 00's, the only real new stars they've created are brock lesner (who's already gone), cena, orton, batista (who's leaving soon) and cm punk. other than them, no one else seems like a legit star in wwe, other than guys that have been there for over a decade like triple h or undertaker.
 

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