The McMahon - Russo "filter" myth

[mrarmageddon]

Following the recent firing of Vince Russo by TNA I've read a lot of people polishing up the old chestnut of "Russo was only good when VKM filtered all his crap".

While undoubtedly Russo's output has been mixed over the years, I find it stunning that anyone credit's McMahon for "filtering" his writing.

If McMahon has such a great ability to filter out poor ideas, where has it been shown post-Russo's WWF run.

Katie Vick didn't get filtered out, the anonymous GM, The diva search, Al Wilson, Hornswoggle as Vince's son, Natalya's farting, Piggy James, The Invasion, New ECW, His own "death".........I could go on and on, all awful ideas/poorly executed angles and all green-lighted by Vince. So why does this myth of his ability to filter out crap persist?

 

[kokoBawesome]

The myth persists because we remember WCW when he was in charge and there was no filter, and he made himself World Champion.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

Because a few smarky fans heard it in a WWE DVD and thought it was true, thus repeating it over and over again until it became "common IWC knowledge" such as Vince Russo being a horrible writer/booker?

McMahon didn't filter squat. It's just yet another shining case of WWE propaganda, giving Vince credit when he doesn't deserve one. The credit for any great segment or moment related to Russo shouldn't go to Vince or even Russo himself. It wasn't the product of Vince's mind, and even if it was product of Russo's mind there's a bunch of other variables that affect the outcome such as the input by the rest of creative, the execution by the wrestlers, the way it is shot, the way it is built up and the added emotionality by the color commentators.

You can have an amazing idea for an angle and have it be butchered simply because your wrestlers can't act it out properly and your commentators aren't worth a fuck - a.k.a the story of TNA's life. Or you can have a shitty angle and good wrestlers, shot in an amazing way and the commentators do a splendid job, but at the end of the day it's still a shitty angle and it bores people - a.k.a the story of WWE's life.

As far as this filter nonsense, I stop reading as soon as I see it in someone's post, it's so moronic and over-done. The same people who believe that hogwash are also the fans who think Bischoff and Russo killed wCw. I guess the old saying is true, history is written by the victors. Vince won, he wrote it, a lot of it was nonsense, the fans believed it and they pass it on. It happened to WCW's legacy, it rubbed Warrior the wrong way, Shawn Michaels is an amazing man who reinvented himself and repented for his mistakes and Macho Man is all of a sudden one of WWE's biggest legends. He is, but he had to die for them to acknowledge it. Here comes the moneeeeeeey ... La di da.

 

[mrarmageddon]

The myth persists because we remember WCW when he was in charge and there was no filter, and he made himself World Champion.

What do you mean the same way McMahon made Himself WWF champion in 99?....and the Royal Rumble winner?........and the ECW champion?

No one loves to put themself over as much as VKM.

 

[Jackal960]

I completely agree. Vince Russo deserves more credit than he gets. I never understood this "filter" thing. To anyone who suggests the ideas were filtered, which storylines were they? If they didn't see surface because they were filtered, how do you know they were bad? How do you know they ever existed and filtered? Russo is not an angel, but when he was in WWE it was great, when he jumped ship to WCW it was already what it was.

Listening to Mean Gene on a WWE dvd
Him commenting about a time he wasn't even in WWE
And taking it as the truth... Great!

What do you mean the same way McMahon made Himself WWF champion in 99?....and the Royal Rumble winner?........and the ECW champion?

And also putting himself in one corner, and his wife on the other corner, and his son on the other, and his father in law on the other, and his uncles cousin on the other and... That was a Wrestlemania Main Event, same years when Russo made himself WCW champion.

 

[kokoBawesome]

Can't they both just be terrible, self-promoting egomaniacs? Russo and McMahon both brought a lot of great moments to wrestling, and they both brought things to the table that make me embarrassed to be an adult wrestling fan. One doesn't have to be some angelic being while the other is the worst person to ever walk the earth. McMahon basically created the global wrestling company while Russo brought adult content to the table, credit to where its due to both.

The thing I most worry about is that Vince to this day has always filtered out his writers, and that Katie Vick was the best thing they had that month. That would mean that Vince had heard a list of even stupider ideas, and at the end the only thing he had left was a rape storyline. How bad were the other ideas!!!?

Quick story, I heard through the rumormill that at one point Shane McMahon was asked to leave the creative staff, because the only thing he brought to the table was ideas on how to put himself in the main event. Thank god for Vince's "filter".

 

[SinCityBlitz]

Vince has final say so he filters EVERYTHING that gets pitched to him. It's common knowledge from everyone in the business(ask Bischoff) that nothing gets by Vince. But not everything pitched by Russo was bad and not everything that McMahon let get by was good.

Another thing is that Russo worked with others. He didn't come up with all these "great" ideas on his own. Most of the guys in the AE were given a lot of freedom with their characters. Something today's guys don't get.

Koko is kind of right in that the only time Russo was really unfiltered was in WCW but he got filtered really quick.

Neither Vince should get much credit, the wrestlers should. Without that group there was no AE.

I completely agree. Vince Russo deserves more credit than he gets. I never understood this "filter" thing. To anyone who suggests the ideas were filtered, which storylines were they? If they didn't see surface because they were filtered, how do you know they were bad? How do you know they ever existed and filtered? Russo is not an angel, but when he was in WWE it was great, when he jumped ship to WCW it was already what it was.

Listening to Mean Gene on a WWE dvd
Him commenting about a time he wasn't even in WWE
And taking it as the truth... Great!

If you don't know where to give credit how do you know Russo deserves any? If we don't know which story lines were filtered it also means we don't know what story lines Russo pitched. So it's kind of pointless to give Russo credit and not knowing what his body of work was.

 

[Xpyred013]

Neither Vince should get much credit, the wrestlers should. Without that group there was no AE.

THANK YOU. I've been dying to hear someone else say that because a lot of people scream MCMAHON MADE WRESTLING. That's heavily false. Yes he owns the company. But who brought the talent in the past? Jim Ross. Not to say he was always great because i believe it was his idea to have the fake Diesel and fake Razor Ramon. But Look at the talent then and their abilities and look at the talent and abilities of today.

 

[mrarmageddon]

I'm not questioning whether Vince filters, just if he is actually good at it?

Pre-Russo he thought Fake Diesel/Ramon, Bastion Booger, The Red Rooster, King Mabel, Mantaur, Issac Yankem among many other awful gimmicks were good enough to pass what WWE claim to be some rigourous quality control process he has.

 

[Jackal960]

If you don't know where to give credit how do you know Russo deserves any? If we don't know which story lines were filtered it also means we don't know what story lines Russo pitched. So it's kind of pointless to give Russo credit and not knowing what his body of work was.

You can comment on what is on the surface. It can be seen and therefore can be commented, so if Katie Vick is bad I can say the guy who wrote it made a shit job. If creating Kane was good, I can say that the writer did a nice job. But I can't say is: this guy is shit because there are lots of bad angles that didn't surface, thanks to some other guy. That's making something up, that statement can be completely inaccurate. Anywhere you read Vince Russo's resume, DX, SCSA, Rock, Kane were created with his inputs. Obviously there are too many factors in creating something great, and Vince Russo might be a very small part of it. But that is for another thread. I am upset because he is getting the bashing because of something that never surfaced, maybe never existed. And for the things that I saw on the surface was good enough for me to conclude that it is unfair to critisize him and giving the credit to Vince's filter

 

[multiverseman.com]

People are stupid. They believe what they want. McMahon is no genius and neither is Russo. They're just people who did what they could with the opportunities given them. Like anyone else who succeeded in history.

 

[Defekt]

In his book and shoot interviews, Russo has talked about how McMahon would tweak his ideas and make them better.

The fact is, people liked the stuff Vince Russo wrote in the Attitude Era, and hated pretty much everything else.

If someone wasn't filtering his ideas, then why was his run in WCW so terrible? The year or so he had full control resulted in some of the worst television ever produced.

 

[Rampage Bentley]

It's not so much that McMahon was a great filter for Russo, it's that Russo NEEDS a filter, and his time in the WWE was the only time he ever had one.

Regardless if it's TNA or WWE, if it's McMahon or Russo, if it's even wrestling or a sitcom, WRITERS NEED FILTERS. You need someone to flat out tell you your idea sucks sometimes... although I would argue that Russo needs it more than most.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

There is no way JR was the one who wanted to continue using the Razor and Diesel gimmicks, it was Vince's way of telling Nash and Hall they were "replaceable" and to an extent he was right... cos one of them turned into Kane who filled Diesels role very nicely.

Russo's rise was more right guy, right time... Vince was desperate for anything to turn the tide, that much was clear by spending megabucks on Mike Tyson. Russo was able to suggest stuff that tapped into Vince's need for that next big thing and we got attitude. He didn't "create Austin" but he created gimmicks like Godfather, Val Venis and "Sexual Chocolate". JR picked out the talent but Russo made the gimmicks and more often than not made them work.

BUT

He started to believe the same talk that blagged him into the role, he either genuinely believed he was solely responsable for the sea change or he simply is a guy who has managed to blag his way through 15 years of being in top positions, making millions along the way.

In reality, it's a bit of both... but I wouldn't be at all shocked to see Russo show up again in WWE before too long... after the dross that was tonights show, I can see Mania bombing big time...

 

[prush80]

WCW was owned by Ted Turner who sold it to AOL Time Warner. A company and multiple people, with many different ideas of how to run WCW, started running it. WWF/WWE has had one owner at a time. So only one persontogo through, no confusion. Vinny Mac has been the only filter for years and look at what he has done with his company, taken over globally. So I would say him being the filter,is not such a bad thing

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Because people are easily fooled by WWE and their DVDs. WWE manipulates their DVDs in a way that it will always show WWF as "good and better" and WCW as " bad and evil".

Vince Russo wasn't as bad as people make him to be. WCW was great.

 

[Headman]

Because people are easily fooled by WWE and their DVDs. WWE manipulates their DVDs in a way that it will always show WWF as "good and better" and WCW as " bad and evil".

Vince Russo wasn't as bad as people make him to be. WCW was great.

Vince Russo's WCW was great? I honestly believe this is the first time I've ever seen anyone express that opinion.

As for Russo, it's not a myth that his ideas were filtered because everyone's ideas are filtered when you work for Vince Mcmahon. People want to turn this into an issue of "People watch too many WWE dvds" but it's not like that at all. We've seen Russo when he's got full creative control and the outcome has never been good. Russo has a bad rep but most of it is because of his own words concerning his philosophy on pro wrestling. He's not a traditionalist which does not sit well with a lot of people, myself included. Ultimately all you can go by is what those who have worked with him have said about him. Which means you'll probably get better info from a WWE DVD than snarky TNA fans who should be happy about the promotion of Lagana and not worrying about what people think of Vic Venom.

 

[d_henderson1810]

The myth persists because we remember WCW when he was in charge and there was no filter, and he made himself World Champion.

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But Vince McMahon made himself WWF World Champion, too. It happened when he beat Triple H on "Smackdown" in 1999. Vince then surrended the title the next week.

I think that Vince Russo doing it was a pisstake of Vince McMahon doing it.

Vince has final say so he filters EVERYTHING that gets pitched to him. It's common knowledge from everyone in the business(ask Bischoff) that nothing gets by Vince. But not everything pitched by Russo was bad and not everything that McMahon let get by was good.

Another thing is that Russo worked with others. He didn't come up with all these "great" ideas on his own. Most of the guys in the AE were given a lot of freedom with their characters. Something today's guys don't get.

Koko is kind of right in that the only time Russo was really unfiltered was in WCW but he got filtered really quick.

Neither Vince should get much credit, the wrestlers should. Without that group there was no AE.

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Here's an example of Vince's "filtering".

I heard that the reason Paul Heyman was let go from WWE was because he was blamed for the disasterous "December 2 Dismember" buyrate a few years ago.

But, apparently, Paul Heyman wrote a layout of D2D. However, Vince trahsed the entire thing, and went in a totally different direction. The PPV tanked to an all-time low (and is the worst-bought WWE PPV ever), and Vince pinned it on Heyman, even though it was Vince's "filtering" that determined that his idea was better than Heyman's for the PPV. So, this shows how Vince's so-called "filter" works.

Besides, if Vince's "filter" is so damn great, then how would Mae Young giving birth to a hand, or the Dr Heinie segment, go to air?

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

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But Vince McMahon made himself WWF World Champion, too. It happened when he beat Triple H on "Smackdown" in 1999. Vince then surrended the title the next week.

I think that Vince Russo doing it was a pisstake of Vince McMahon doing it.




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Here's an example of Vince's "filtering".

I heard that the reason Paul Heyman was let go from WWE was because he was blamed for the disasterous "December 2 Dismember" buyrate a few years ago.

But, apparently, Paul Heyman wrote a layout of D2D. However, Vince trahsed the entire thing, and went in a totally different direction. The PPV tanked to an all-time low (and is the worst-bought WWE PPV ever), and Vince pinned it on Heyman, even though it was Vince's "filtering" that determined that his idea was better than Heyman's for the PPV. So, this shows how Vince's so-called "filter" works.

Besides, if Vince's "filter" is so damn great, then how would Mae Young giving birth to a hand, or the Dr Heinie segment, go to air?

Two well known facts, first Vince NEVER liked the original ECW. He liked that it created him some stars which is why he financed it, but he never cared for how extreme it was. Then when he brought back the ECW brand he watered it down worse than Superstars. He didn't want ECW as ECW was, he wanted ECW as HE saw it.

Second, it is well known that Vince can have a twisted sense of humor.

Vince micromanages everything in the WWE from creative to Corporate. Nothing happens without his approval. That's the way it is.

 

[willross]

Well because every one on here loves Paul Heyman, maybe you should listen to his interview done with OTR on TSN....when he said "nothing that goes on TV, goes on TV without being blessed by Vince McMahon. He deserves credit for all the great things done, and when something goes wrong, he accepts all the blame".

In other words......if its on TV, its cause Vince thought it was a good idea, plain and simple. Everything we have ever loved, McMahon said "I LOVE IT" or "Maybe we should do this". Same goes for everything we ever hated.

Vince McMahon deserves all the credit for everything good and deserves all the blame for everything bad.

 

[justtxyank]

People buy into that stuff but there's no way it's true.

Remember when Raven was working for the E on tv and Vince didn't realize it and then flipped out when he discovered it?

Or the "twin brothers" recently that he made creative break up when he learned they weren't real brothers in real life?

The Vince McMahon legend is the greatest work in wrestling history.

Edit: And people play into it because the way the industry has shaken out, no one who wants to stay in the business wants to piss him off and burn that bridge.

 

[JJ15776]

People say it because it's 100% fact. Pure, unadulterated fact. Not myth, fact. FACT.

We've seen how horrible Vince Russo is without a filter - just look at what he did with WCW and TNA. Far worse than anything that ever happened in WWE, with or without Russo.

To really understand this, you have to realize that Russo also filtered McMahon. It worked both ways. And they were both driven by the competition of the Monday Night Wars. To bring what happened in the WWE long after Russo was gone, WCW and ECW were bankrupt, and Vince didn't have nearly as large a role in the writing process as 'proof' that McMahon didn't filter Russo is ridiculous.

Again, the word is not myth, but fact.

People buy into that stuff but there's no way it's true.

Remember when Raven was working for the E on tv and Vince didn't realize it and then flipped out when he discovered it?

Or the "twin brothers" recently that he made creative break up when he learned they weren't real brothers in real life?

The Vince McMahon legend is the greatest work in wrestling history.

Edit: And people play into it because the way the industry has shaken out, no one who wants to stay in the business wants to piss him off and burn that bridge.

I'm not going to single out every ridiculous thing said in this thread, but I had to respond to this one.

The greatest work in wrestling history is the internet dirt sheet. Give me any bit of proof besides an unsourced, uncredible, off the cuff remark by somebody who has no connection to the company or the wrestling business in general that shows the Raven or Basham Brothers rumors were the slightest bit true. You can't.

I love people that rip others for believing anything the WWE tells them in DVDs or on screen, but treat everything anybody says on the internet like it's a word from god.

 

[akathelaw]

To me, Vince Russo was a hard working guy who had a demanding boss in Vince Mcmahon who knew what he wanted. All of that changed when the Attitude Era success validated his tasteless sense of humor and affinity for the extreme. Russo packed it up and went to WCW to be a big celebrity, take it easy and rake in the cash. He fantasized about morphing pro wrestling into a big promotional circuit for other celebrities, guys like David Arquette to promote their screwball comedies on screwball wrasslin' 2000. Bischoff was right on board bringing on rappers like Master P to manage no namers. When WCW went under he went to TNA with his tail between his legs, offering Dixie Carter the Attitude Era magic for her promotion. What she got was Attitude Era rehashing, reliance on continuing former WWE employee's old WWE storylines, and the same bad, lewd comedy that reeks of 1998. Russo was a waste of money for WCW and TNA because he'd already peaked in his own mind, he no longer felt that urge to work hard and please the boss.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I'm really surprised this hasn't been mentioned but the credit for the Attitude Era doesn't really belong to either Vince creatively. The best parts of WWF television where stolen, pure and simple. SCSA? ECW's Sandman. DX? The nWo ran through an ECW filter. Y2J and the Radicalz? Risque storylines?

The credit that McMahon deserves is spotting what he needed to do and working out that is people were turning off his programming because the age was more cynical, the way to bring it back was to make his shows more cynical. The things they plagiarized they did well, some other things also worked (notably the Rock) but a great amount of the fully original stuff (hand birth, necrophilia to name two) stunk. Former writers have claimed that McMahon was also pushing for an incestuous plot with him and Stephanie .

It's hard to say just how good Russo was under this criteria, but my feeling on the guy is that his specialty was the entertainment side (he has made his feelings clear on the wrestling aspect on several occasions) and this is were you could see just how much sway he has been having over any shows that he has been associated with. As such he'd (logically) have his strengths and weaknesses just like Dusty Rhodes, Kevin Sullivan, Kevin Nash, Eric Bischoff, Vince McMahon or any other head of creative there has ever been.

 

[klunderbunker]

....WOW. Where do I even begin.

Ok, first and foremost, if ANYONE here believes that something gets on Raw without Vince having full say over it, you're a fool.

Second and more pertinent to this, Russo was a guy that worked with some incredibly talented people. Now let's think about this for a minute. Russo had Rock, Austin, HHH, Undertaker, Mick Foley, Kane, the Outlaws, Shamrock, Edge, Owen Hart, and I could go on and on. With that kind of a roster, anyone could book a watchable show. Russo had talent and good ideas, but to believe he's responsible for most of the success that Raw had back then is nonsense.

When you look back at the Attitude Era, people remember the good parts of it. They overlook stuff like Dan Severn, Steve Blackman, the Oddities, Jeff Jarrett Country Superstar, Beaver Cleavage, Undertaker being Demon Man, Brawl for All, Heel JR, Droz is a drug dealer, Droz in general, Henry and Mae, and a lot more really bad ideas. People don't remember any of that though. They think it was all Austin vs. Vince all the time, which just isn't true.

Then we fast forward to WCW with Russo in charge. Where do I even start? Mike Awesome: a killing machine who had to slow down his style A LOT for anyone to be able to keep up with him. I KNOW! Let's turn him into That 70s Guy and then make him love fat women! He can drive a bus! Then let's want to make Tank Abbott world champion after making him dance with 3 Count. I mean, that's Too Cool of an idea right? An awkward guy with people dancing around. Then I know what we can do: we can turn Goldberg heel! I mean, I know he's the most popular guy in the company and the only one that people will still pay to see, but LET'S TURN HIM!!! NO ONE WILL SEE IT COMING!!! Then we can swerve everyone with shoots all over the place because every fan tunes in to see shoots right? Screw that wrestling crap. And then we can make ME world champion. I mean, I'm the same as Vince McMahon right? Then we can make David Arquette world champion to make three more people see our bad movie!

That's Vince Russo when he's not checked by someone else. You get a lot more of the bad ideas and when there's not talent around like he had in WWF to get through the bad ideas, all you're left with is a bunch of nonsense and swerves all over the place. Russo never learned the idea of moderation, and it backfired on him. HAving McMahon there to filter out a lot of the crazy stuff let Russo's good ideas (which certainly existed) shine through and turned into a success.

Vince filtered Russo a lot and it worked out very well. Look at WCW for a great example of what happens when Russo isn't filtered and look what happened as a result.