The Hitman vs HBK

[Slam Master]

I recently read both Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart's respected autobiographies, and it has recently changed my view on my perspective of pro wrestling. For one, Bret Hart is not under contract so there isn't anybody looking over his shoulder on what to and what not to say. His book points out Shawn as a whiny, crying, insecure, neurotic drug addict. He also points out how Shawn said right to Bret 4 days before SS97 that he'd be thankful for Bret to put Shawn over but wouldn't return the favor. Then later that day in front of Vince Shawn totally changed his tune. He made HBK to be the instigator and the backstabber in many situations, which probably was true at the time. Bret also stated that Shawn was a prick to everyone backstage and that him and HHH were on the booking committee running other stars down. This seems very asshole-ish and realistic, knowing what hard prescription drugs and alcohol can do to someone. Bret is very old-school, and would get pissed when Shawn and those guys would break kayfabe and do things unprofessionally, doing shoots bashing the real-life Bret as opposed to Bret bashing the in-ring character the Heartbreak Kid.

On Shawn's POV, he makes Bret out to be selfish and greedy, not wanting to give up the top spot. He also points out that the WWF was going in a new, reality-based edgy direction, too which wasn't to Hart's liking. Some of the things they were doing to piss Bret off were things Vince supported, and they all played the role in Bret Hart's downfall. They both couldn't co-exist constantly at each other's throats.

I'm a die-hard HBK fan, and he's the only reason I still watch, but seeing as Bret wasn't all messed up on painkillers and downers all the time, I'd have to believe Bret's side a tad more. They both have admitted that they each had faults, but HBK seemed to have special treatment and was very immature. I'm glad he's the way he is now, but I think his book is a little more sugar-coated than Bret's...thoughts?

 

[Slam Master]

One thing I forgot to add in is that HBK would purposely walk around the back saying he wouldn't job to anyone because that's what the gossip was about him, and that he would do crazy things on his recently repaired knee in 1997 just to get back at the guys who doubted him.

 

[Fuel The Fire]

Ok this conversation has been done over and over and over. This is going to be one of those topics that everyone has their own feelings on it and for my part.
in the famous words of vince mcmahon...bret screwed bret..thats how i feel.
and you really want to know how really pushed the idea of the screw job..watch the hbk dvd..triple h with the famous words of---fuck him if he doesnt want to do business you do business for him.
thats how i feel and i dont need to say anything else. this is all old news and is an old converstation now.

 

[Razor]

Yeah. Old conversation, old points are going to be brought up, and no one new is going to be convinced.

But, to answer the thread, Bret's autobiography does have that tinge of legitimacy to it that HBK's is lacking. I mean, HBK is still under-contract with the WWE anyway, why would we trust 100% of what he says? And everything that went on behind-the-scenes probably happened, because even HBK has admitted he used to be a righteous asshole. I'm not going to say that Bret's book was 100% correct and HBK's was completely false, but I myself would readily believe Bret over HBK for the most part.

 

[Henry Hill]

my question is does it really matter anymore? Shawn has said he regrets lying to bret, though never actually saying he's sorry for the part he took in the incident. Bret, for all the years of bitterness has said he'd forgive Shawn, and with a phone call he'd even consider inducting him into the hall. it's been 12 years, its time to let it go, lads.

 

[gers09]

bret screwed bret and that it yes HBK was a a-hole bvack stage then he has said it him self but if u look at it this way if bret was the hounest do any thing for the business the he would of done the job for HBK and nothing would of happend in 97 there would b no screw job for us to talk about but it obvious he didnt want to do ther job for shawn so vince did what he had to do

 

[BRandonkin]

Shawn did say he was sorry on off the record, where bret responded how he does not buy it and a some things never change. That was when i gave up on bret. bret sees no wrong in his eyes.

 

[gers09]

Shawn did say he was sorry on off the record, where bret responded how he does not buy it and a some things never change. That was when i gave up on bret. bret sees no wrong in his eyes.

bingo bret thinks because he was a top guy and one of the hardest workers around at the time he knows all but he dont he knows shit he thinks shawn dont care but he does look at his face when he lost his smile that shows how much he cared for what he did and how much it means to him it was killin him to walk away bret need to remmber there more people in wrestling than him and more than just him care about it


(to guy who gave me neg rep explain hows it crap) bret says shawn crys and whines when he dont get his own way and dont really care shawn cares more than bret shawn will do job to younger guys he willin to pass torch if bret was he would did job for shawn and lost match with out vince doin what he had to do

 

[Slam Master]

Sure, its old news, but its the legact it left.

Also, in Shawn's book and shoot interview from 1999 he said to Vince it woulda been f---in stupid to job to a guy that was leaving to go to the competition that almost put the WWF out of business. Shawn was also pissed that Bret was making more and wasn't even the top guy. In Bret's book.. "HBK said straight to me that he'd appreciate me(Bret) putting him(Shawn) over, but wouldn't do the same. Then when they talked in front of Vince he completely changed his tune and said he has a habit of putting his foot in his mouth." Shawn was definetely a bitter baby at the time, but it was the drugs making him like that. Also, Bret was old school and didn't like where the company was going and the fact that Hunter and Shawn were on the booking committee using their influence to hurt others.

 

[BillAlfonso]

I haven't read the book but why would Bret lie? It's not like he's even trying to work for the company again. And could someone please tell me why the Hart School closed?

EDIT: Nevermind, they told me in another post.

 

[notorious102]

One thing I forgot to add in is that HBK would purposely walk around the back saying he wouldn't job to anyone because that's what the gossip was about him, and that he would do crazy things on his recently repaired knee in 1997 just to get back at the guys who doubted him.

Shawn did purposely walk around saying things like that!
The Undertaker caught wind of it at Wrestlemania 14 & basically told Shawn that if he didn't do the right thing for the business that he was gonna kick his little bitch ass! Shawn got scared of Taker & did the right thing.

If you think about it, it seems like it bothered Shawn that it made him look scared of Taker becuz in his WM25 storyline with Taker he purposely went out of his way to say that he wasn't scared of Taker. Remember that Shawn was in charge of their storyline too .....

The funny part is that in Shawn's book, even after he became this self proclaimed born-again christian, he denied that even happened ...... The Undertaker said that it did happen..... I'd believe Taker over HBK anyday of the week. But it kinda bothers me that he would lie even after he claims to be holier than thou.

 

[ZEUS]

Vince was scared that Bret would take the World title to WCW with him. Shawn was afraid that by jobbing to Bret, he would look bad. Bret didn't want to damage his character by losing to HBK in Canada. He even told Vince that he would be okay with a run in finish, and that he would either relinquish the belt the next night on Raw, or lose it on Raw to someone else (Owen? Davey Boy?), just not HBK or HHH. Vince is the villain in this entire situation. Instead of trying to work out an agreeable situation for all parties, he was sneaky about it. It was his own fault that he was in the situation too, as he gave Bret creative control of his character. Hell, Vince could have had Bret drop the belt in Buffalo 3 days before the PPV, and then have the run in ending. He could have had the run in ending, and then had Bret wrestle the next night on Raw and lose to Owen, Davey Boy, Ken Shamrock, Undertaker, hell anyone. There was no need for the screwjob, other than for Vince to make Bret look weaker as he was going to the competition. Bret was doing what was best for his character, and Vince had given him that right in his contract. HBK was doing what was best for himself and for Vince.

 

[image1986]

Brets book is just like bret bitter and close minded. Just because he's not with wwe while writing this book don't really mean anything he says is the truth. I believe the situation vince plan to go a different direction and move bret out of the main event. Bret felt he earn his spot that ended up going to hbk. Yes hbk was a dick but he was a talented dick that was very popular at the time. Bret bitched and moaned and decided to take his ball and go to wcw. Wcw threw money at bret so he made his decision. Vince found out and didn't want the title to go to wcw so he did what he had to. Bret harts bitterness is pretty sad since he is hurting his legacy by contining to live in the past. I think hbks book is more likely true because he has a different mindset and is more rational than bret is. You can tell how stubborn he is based on past interviews and the things he wrote in the book. I believe if bret did admit any fault in his story than he would come of like a lier and you can't have that.

 

[Slam Master]

It's true that Vince was sneaky about it, because Shawn found out through a third party that Bret was leaving right after he found out Bret was making more money than him. That didn't set right with Michaels, and the drugs made it worse. He was bitter that Vince wanted Bret to go over when he was leaving for the competition that was killing them. Bret was bitter that Shawn took his spot, and wasn't respectful of the business (i.e. passing torches, booking to help only his friends, breaking kayfabe) and Vince was the puppetmaster telling everyone what they wanted to hear. It just sucks because that was my era of the WWF and they could of had some great programs together.

 

[gers09]

was vince sneaky about it yes was shawn 2 faced yes they do the right thing hell yes i know all the bret fans will go mad and spam but look at it from vince's point of view here is your top superstar going to walk out on you and go to the company thats tryin to destory you and could take your belt with him ofcourse you dont want that to happen as for shawn you are still up and coming and you want you chance to be top dog what better way than when you hear that the current top dog leaving and you are going be his last match and he is the champ dam right you screw him and you get in on thing with the boss at end of the day every single person walks in to wwe to be wwe champ and they will all do it by any means nessary

 

[ZEUS]

was vince sneaky about it yes was shawn 2 faced yes they do the right thing hell yes i know all the bret fans will go mad and spam but look at it from vince's point of view here is your top superstar going to walk out on you and go to the company thats tryin to destory you and could take your belt with him ofcourse you dont want that to happen as for shawn you are still up and coming and you want you chance to be top dog what better way than when you hear that the current top dog leaving and you are going be his last match and he is the champ dam right you screw him and you get in on thing with the boss at end of the day every single person walks in to wwe to be wwe champ and they will all do it by any means nessary

I can't believe how wrong you are. If Vince would have been willing to work with Bret, the whole screwjob could have been avoided. How? Bret offered to drop the belt to at least a half dozen other guys, he just wouldn't do it to HBK. Why was it such a bad idea to lose it to Undertaker two weeks before Bret leaves, then have a Bret-HBK grudge match at the ppv that ends in a no contest. Meanwhile, Taker defends the belt successfully at the ppv, but loses to HBK at either the next ppv or the next night on Raw. Problem solved. Bret still jobs the belt to a top level performer, and doesn't beat HBK, while Vince still gets HBK as his champ.

 

[gers09]

I can't believe how wrong you are. If Vince would have been willing to work with Bret, the whole screwjob could have been avoided. How? Bret offered to drop the belt to at least a half dozen other guys, he just wouldn't do it to HBK. Why was it such a bad idea to lose it to Undertaker two weeks before Bret leaves, then have a Bret-HBK grudge match at the ppv that ends in a no contest. Meanwhile, Taker defends the belt successfully at the ppv, but loses to HBK at either the next ppv or the next night on Raw. Problem solved. Bret still jobs the belt to a top level performer, and doesn't beat HBK, while Vince still gets HBK as his champ.

well yeah i guess you do have a point but we all know vince when he puts his mind to something you know he is going to do it and bret knows this i just think bret could of done what he was told at end of day bret knows that if vince doesnt get his way he will do something to try and ruin you this week on raw proves this

 

[ZEUS]

well yeah i guess you do have a point but we all know vince when he puts his mind to something you know he is going to do it and bret knows this i just think bret could of done what he was told at end of day bret knows that if vince doesnt get his way he will do something to try and ruin you this week on raw proves this

My main beef with this whole situation is with Vince. He never should have given Bret the creative control clause in his contact if he was never going to follow it. And he didn't. By screwing Bret, he actually violated that contract. If The Hitman was as arrogant as some here seem to believe, then he would have took Vince to court just to prove a point. But he chose to move on (somewhat) with his career and head to WCW. Unfortunately, we all learned that Bishchoff/Russo has no idea of how to use him properly.

 

[gers09]

My main beef with this whole situation is with Vince. He never should have given Bret the creative control clause in his contact if he was never going to follow it. And he didn't. By screwing Bret, he actually violated that contract. If The Hitman was as arrogant as some here seem to believe, then he would have took Vince to court just to prove a point. But he chose to move on (somewhat) with his career and head to WCW. Unfortunately, we all learned that Bishchoff/Russo has no idea of how to use him properly.

yeah vince shouldn't of gave him the clause and then violated it again it comes i guess down to ego of vince and bret's really vince is the boss and we all know when your boss tells you to jump you say how high and then jump double that and then do it again and bret ego wouldn't let him do the job if bret was the professional he says he is he would be a good boy and do as his boss wanted and there was no need for spitin on vince

 

[salopstick]

vince forced out because he couldnt afford to pay him his huge contract but helped him get a good deal with wcw

bret is bitter with vince for that

bret blames vince for owen's death

bret loved the business and is bitter his wcw career did not pan out how he wanted it to.
ie not being the top guy, obviously he is un happy he was forced to retire due to the injury caused by goldberg

hbk was an ass hole back then and the two did not get on - such is life

however in my humble opinion THE SCREWJOB was a work, a way of saving face for bret on the way out and generating heat on hbk and vince after the event. a win win situation for everyone

if bret hart had not retired early he would have come back to the company as part of the invasion angle with a what side is he on role, and still be with the company now in sole capacity or with tna

bret hart (and the wwe and hbk are at times) is earning a decent living from the screw job