the Figure-Four Leglock

[tLight]

Anyone else finding it disturbing how many different wrestlers are using this submission hold these days?

HBK used it last Monday
Hardy used it on Friday
Rhodes used it Sunday

3 different wrestlers in one week using the same move. What ever happened to originality?

I can understand HBK using it, he did retire Ric Flair so he should have the right to use it, but doesn't HBK already use the Sharp Shooter which he;s borrowed from Bret Hart.

but Hardy using it Friday vs CM Punk
and Rhodes using it Sunday vs HBK

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past we've also seen Triple H, MVP, Jeff Hardy, and several others use this move in a match.

There are other submission holds, I mean ask Jericho he is the man of 1004 holds, or Dean Malenko man of 1000 holds. From a booking stand point wouldn't you want matches to have different outcomes and different moves to be displayed? So why 3 times in one week do we see three different wrestlers use the same submission move in their matches?

 

[King Patrick Star]

Well, using your examples, I think HBK has the “right” to use it, because he retired Ric Flair. Triple H has the “right” to use it, because of the history in Evolution and Ric is his idol. Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy have the “right” to use it, because they are from North Carolina, home of the Nature Boy. Cody Rhodes has the "right" to use it, because his Father, Dusty Rhodes, used it as a signature move (not finishing move) during his career. As for MVP and the others, well, I just ran out of excuses.

 

[tLight]

OK I understand the reasoning for say they have the "right" to use it, but why would you want three different wrestlers using the same submission hold with in 7 days of each other? It takes away from the move when everyone uses it.

Remember when everyone in WCW used the power bomb as a finisher?
Nash, Big Show, Norton, Jericho (there were others, but no one comes to mind)

Or when the Holly's started using the Choke Slam? Crash Holly was all of 5"6 and using a choke slam? seriously? Now Kane, Big Show, Undertaker, and Khali all use the move or a variation of it.

What if CM Punk used the Pepsi Plunger in a match on Smackdown, knowing that its the same as the Pedigree which is Triple H's finisher, well minus the fact CM Punk does it off the top ropes, and he isn't Triple H so it makes it instantly better.

I'm just saying there needs to be some variation in the moves wrestlers use, or they become stale

 

[ghoat]

Or when the Holly's started using the Choke Slam? Crash Holly was all of 5"6 and using a choke slam? seriously?

Don't forget: Crash Holly was well over 400 pounds.

I think it's fine that many wrestlers are using the figure-four. Only one should be using it as a consistent finishing move, though. That person is a "specialist" at the figure-four leglock, and the rest are just imitators. That's how finishers used to be sold.

Question: When was the last time someone actually submitted to a figure-four?

 

[King Patrick Star]

You’re right and I agree that there should be variety. I guess the WWE just ran out of ideas for that week or something. I think HBK should have just used his modified version of it, the Hardys should have just used a completely different move, Matt with the "Scar" and Jeff with the "Spine Line", and Cody could have just used the Texas Cloverleaf around the turnbuckle post. Cody’s Figure 4 did look a little off. Bret made that move look so convincing back in the day.

 

[Pedro08]

I really don't have a problem with wrestlers using the figure four as a regular move. Now that Flair has retired, nobody uses it as a finisher that I know of. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

However, if you're going to use it, put it on correctly. Did anyone catch the one HBK put on Dibiase last night? That was the worse figure four I've ever seen. He tried twice to put it on and when he did, it was put on wrong. It looked like he was going to set up for the Sharp Shooter and maybe he changed his mind realizing what country he was wrestling in, and instead put on the figure four. I know he was playing up his injuries from the previous night, but I think he just forgot how to put it on.

 

[SAMBOLIEWWE]

Anyone else finding it disturbing how many different wrestlers are using this submission hold these days?

HBK used it last Monday
Hardy used it on Friday
Rhodes used it Sunday


I can understand HBK using it, he did retire Ric Flair so he should have the right to use it, but doesn't HBK already use the Sharp Shooter which he;s borrowed from Bret Hart.

HHH also used it on Sunday.

I agree that yes they need to change it up a bit. I think mot guys use it because it is an easy way to get a cheap WOOOOOO from the crowd.

As far as people having the right to moves, as long as there is no one currently on the roster using the move as a finisher then any move should be somewhat free to use, just not everyone doing the same stuff all the time. IE the Pedigree and the Pepsi Plunge.

As for HBK borrowing the sharpshooter from Bret Hart. I think that neither HHH or HBK should use the move. (HHH has used it alot recently ) After all the bad blood between Hart and DX , it always seems like a slap in the face if either of them use it.

But I digress , any move that is not used as someones finish should be fair game, in most cases . Just use them in moderation.

 

[school-of-hard-knocks]

I agree that too many people are using it but it is nothing new. Figure 4 has been washed up by the late 90s when everyone and their mom did it everywhere. Jeff Jarrett tried using it as his finisher. Wrestlers like The Great Muta (Keiji Muto), and Lyger did it in Japan. It just wasn't the same. Now days it is not a finishing move anymore. It is a spot wrestlers do in a match to draw a cheap reaction and give an illussion that they are really hurting their opponents' legs. But everyone watching knows that eventually the other person is either going to reverse the move or get to the ropes.

 

[DaveBalls]

Bottom line the Figure Four is just a wrestling move or hold. How many people use the DDT as a move or the powerbomb. Ric Flair wasn't the only guy who used the Figure Four as a finisher back in the day, but he became the most famous. I think its different when a wrestler invents a move or a new hold, nobody else should be using that move because that move is that specific wrestlers signature. However the figure four is a pretty common submission hold. Like someone stated earlier, it should only be a finisher with a specialist of the move is using it.

 

[ronbot09]

Ok gotta chime in here for a quick second everyone says HBK stole the figure four and he's not doing Flairs figure 4 he's doing the inverted figure 4 which was a move he added to his moveset building up to the match they had at WM just look it up they both did there figure 4's on a tag team match they had on Raw and the inverted figure 4 is what HBK did last night..still don't believe me I'm sure almost everyone on here has SD vs Raw 09 look at HBK's finishers in that game lol and really I think using the moves of the former legends is a sign of respect after all immitation is the best form of flattery right? And just seeing how people on here react and in most cases over react to everything if someone started using the clover leaf or the crossface just as a regular move people would be up in arms saying that someone is just copying Malenko or Benoit....makes me wonder if the majority of the people on here just can't be pleased...or just want to bitch and complain lol

 

[classicviolence]

2 things: for no0bs HBK uses a modified Figure 4 that he invented himself. HBK has been doing that move since the beginning of 2008. He is the inventor and needs to name it. Micheal Cole is just a horrible announcer.

Also: Samoa Joe was been doing the crippler crossface well before Benoit has passed. Honestly, I think that HHH does it for the pop that the crossface gets to further put himself over with the more "casual" wrestling fans that dont know too much about the sport.

 

[BoBBYAMERICA]

im glad that someone finally brought up the point in this thread that hbk uses the modified figure four. anyway back to your question, do i find it disturbing that in the past week 6 or so wrestlers have used the figure four which is like saying you find it disturbing that ever wrestler uses the sleeper hold since piper retired. not at all. just like i think that it's stupid when people get pissed off at a wrestler who "steels" another wrestler's finisher.

 

[jazzua]

2 things: for no0bs HBK uses a modified Figure 4 that he invented himself. HBK has been doing that move since the beginning of 2008. He is the inventor and needs to name it. Micheal Cole is just a horrible announcer.

Also: Samoa Joe was been doing the crippler crossface well before Benoit has passed. Honestly, I think that HHH does it for the pop that the crossface gets to further put himself over with the more "casual" wrestling fans that dont know too much about the sport.

Yes...HBK uses the inverted figure four...NO...HBK didn't invent it. Hell, Disco Inferno used if for quite some time back in the late 90's early 2000's. He was bregging about this new hold he invented and kept botching its application so he started bringing down a sheet of paper with a drawing of how to apply the hold. Anyway, to stay on topic, I think you're right about using the same moves. Only one man should be able to throw punches every week as well. Only one man should be able to do a sleeper hold, or an atomic drop, or a headlock, or a suplex. Ok, sarcasm. It doesn't matter. The figure four is nothing more than just another hold now a days that Ric is gone so it doesn't carry the prestige it once did.

 

[And I'm Awesome]

I don't see a major problem with a lot of guys using the Figure Four (or modifications of it, ala HBK). It's a chance for guys to basically relax in a match and get a breath of air, and it isn't a headlock. The Figure Four isn't a terribly difficult move to get on, either. Some submission moves are pretty difficult to get on, requiring flexibility on the part of one or both guys involved. The Figure Four (and Sharpshooter, for that matter) don't require a ton of flexibility (well, the Sharpshooter does need a limber spine), and is thus useful for many guys.

The other thing is that the Figure Four is a move that we've seen forever. Yeah, it was Ric's finisher. However, it is a pretty simple move that has an off chance of getting a submission victory. Most guys aren't submission wrestlers anymore, so you're not going to see a whole lot of creativity when guys decide to use a submission move in a match.

 

[MooseNugget]

I don't mind if people want to do the Figure Four Grapevine in dedication to the awesomeness of Nature Boy Buddy Rogers I don't really see a problem of people wanting to use a Figure Four Leg Lock, it's a cool looking move that looks more impressive then your standard headlock. I do think that it shouldn't be used all the time, which I think killed Ed Lewis' headlock. It should be used to finish a match from time to time to keep the move over, not just broken out of in the middle of a match.

 

[hArdyPUNKmArk]

I don't really have a problem with any of those guys using the move itself but I get what you're saying about it being used 3 times in less than a week.

It's a recognisable move so I guess they wanted to jam heaps of recognisable moves in before Breaking Point. I think I saw about 5 Boston Crabs and a couple of Sharpshooters and a crossface or 2 before that PPV so I think that's the only reason we saw more than 1 in a week.

I doubt we'll even see it for a while now the PPV is over.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Question: When was the last time someone actually submitted to a figure-four?

I believe the last time someeone tapped to the Figure 4 was when Ric Flair made Randy Orton tap on the RAW before WMXXIV.

Anyone else finding it disturbing how many different wrestlers are using this submission hold these days?

The Figure 4 is just a plain old leg submission move. if a wrestler is working the legs (or wants to weaken the legs of his opponent), then the figure 4 is a well-known move for that, which is relatively easy to do, and a move the fans get into.


If you are going to get on people for copying moves, then here is a brief list of "copycats."

1. Randy Orton's RKO is a slightly modified version of DDP's Diamond Cutter.
2. MVP's Playmaker was done in the US before him by Randy Orton (before he did the RKO); and he does the knee facebuster thing that HHH does.
3. Shelton Benjamin's Paydirt (I think thats what he calls it) is a variation of Mr Kennedy Kennedy's Mic Check which is a variation of Edge's downward spiral.
4. As Michael Cole says (and JR used to say) every week, HHH does a "Harley Race High Knee," a "Double A (Arn Anderson) Spinebuster," and a Ric Flair like Knee Drop.

there are probably hundreds more copycats, these were the only ones I could think of off the top of my head. I won't even begin to list moves that were "stolen" by US wrestlers that were originated overseas/Mexico (Sharpshooter/Scorpion Deathdrop, Swanton Bomb, Go 2 Sleep, just to name a few).

 

[Razor]

Anyone else finding it disturbing how many different wrestlers are using this submission hold these days?

HBK used it last Monday
Hardy used it on Friday
Rhodes used it Sunday

3 different wrestlers in one week using the same move. What ever happened to originality?

I can understand HBK using it, he did retire Ric Flair so he should have the right to use it, but doesn't HBK already use the Sharp Shooter which he;s borrowed from Bret Hart.

but Hardy using it Friday vs CM Punk
and Rhodes using it Sunday vs HBK

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past we've also seen Triple H, MVP, Jeff Hardy, and several others use this move in a match.

There are other submission holds, I mean ask Jericho he is the man of 1004 holds, or Dean Malenko man of 1000 holds. From a booking stand point wouldn't you want matches to have different outcomes and different moves to be displayed? So why 3 times in one week do we see three different wrestlers use the same submission move in their matches?

What's wrong with a friend and two younger wrestlers using a move in homage to their friend/mentor/WWE Legend? Should no one use a clothesline anymore, but JBL had one as his finisher?

You ask for originality, I ask you to look away from the WWE. They have a set list of moves they'll allow their wrestlers to use, and that's that. If you want a new move, you have to pass it with them. And if that move has a higher risk than normal for causing your fellow wrestler injuries, they won't allow it. It's their prerogative, it's their contract you signed.

Not only that, but wrestlers use moves that are blatant rip-offs of other wrestler's moves all the time. Isn't Jericho's Codebreaker a move that Helms used to use? I know for a fact that Orton's RKO is modified Diamond Cutter. I used to use that move on my friends in elementary all the time.

It's not even like 500 wrestlers are all using the Figure-Four every match. 3 wrestlers used it, and they all had a legit reason to use it. When a rookie who just debuted shows up and uses it, then you'll have a point.

 

[jamesman22]

Well, using your examples, I think HBK has the “right” to use it, because he retired Ric Flair. Triple H has the “right” to use it, because of the history in Evolution and Ric is his idol. Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy have the “right” to use it, because they are from North Carolina, home of the Nature Boy. Cody Rhodes has the "right" to use it, because his Father, Dusty Rhodes, used it as a signature move (not finishing move) during his career. As for MVP and the others, well, I just ran out of excuses.

Of course they all have the right to use it. Flair was The Game's manager for quite a while and was in the Evolution faction with The Game, HBK uses it because well, he retired The Man, and as Ric Flair has said, To be the Man, you must beat the Man. By that terminology, HBK is now the Man. Jeff and Matt have full right to use the figure 4 too. Flair was an inspiration for them and was part of the reason they started wrestling in the first place. And they are from Cameron, North Carolina. Flair is from Charlotte, North Carolina. I am guessing that is also a reason that they would be able to use it and who better than a native from North Carolina? And I never knew that Dusty Rhodes used it as a signature. I got into wrestling in 1999. Thats pretty much far after Dusty Rhodes had retired. As for MVP, why is he using it?

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

I dont really think it's that big a deal. I mean, come to think of it, Bret Hart used it when Ric Flari was still actively wrestling. It's just a great submission move that looks complicated and looks like it probably hurts, being the legs are all tangled. Adding this to the fact that everyone knows that once you get someone turned over, you reverse the pressure, you have a great stand-by for wrestlers to use to in matches. It's versatile enough to go around a ringpost as well!

I think it's more a homage to Flair than a rip-off in this case. Everyone knows its his move, and you always hear "Wooo's" when it gets locked in. I'm sure Flair doesn't have a problem with it, especially since he has retired. Although 3 people is a bit of stretch isnt it? Oh well.

 

[angry_panda]

It's just a great submission move that looks complicated and looks like it probably hurts, being the legs are all tangled. Adding this to the fact that everyone knows that once you get someone turned over, you reverse the pressure, you have a great stand-by for wrestlers to use to in matches. It's versatile enough to go around a ringpost as well!

Its actually pretty easy to put on someone once you have figured it out, me and some friends at school used to try and figure out submission moves when we where in school, and I'll tell ya, the figure 4 hurts like a bitch.

Although I gotta say I think the ring post variation was a bit rubbish, as the pain is on the lower leg (the strait one) not the crossed over one, so the ring post would probs make it hurt less but hey.

I think we will now slowly but surely see the figure 4 become, just another move.