The End of the Middle - TNA's Role in Whatever the Post-Attitude Era is Called

[Rayne]

TNA is a failing company of badness, and will explode in a horrible WCW-style bankruptcy within three months.



I don't believe that for a second, but there are a significant amount of people here who read a headline, a leading sentence, and then freak the fuck out and respond without reading or thinking. Let's give them something to chew on so that the adults can have a discussion; this is going to be a long one. I'm going to say things about TNA that aren't nice, but they aren't meant to be mean either. They're honest, and reviewing TNA's past will give us a window on what we can expect from them in the future. TNA's future is professional wrestling's future, which is why the financial success of the company interests me so much. The WWE is an incredibly bland business story; they've immunized themselves to any large financial shocks, and seem to have accept that their medium-term domestic numbers are going to slowly degrade. The story of TNA is one of whether professional wrestling in twenty years will be dominated by this one behemoth, with a series of 'also-rans' popping up, or if there is room still in the professional wrestling landscape for two successful companies in competition with each other. (TNA is not currently in competition with the WWE. They tried to be very recently. That's important from this frame of reference.)

Over the past month, the evidence of what anyone with a brain has been saying for the past year has come out; that there is no possible way TNA has been taking in as much money as they are spending. The fantasies of wildly successful "international marketing deals" that are never quite spelt out have been dashed. People have realized that "millionaire corporate investors" are wealthy because they don't extend unlimited financial lifelines to their losing divisions. In short, the financial reckoning that you've been told is coming, has come.

This does not mean that TNA is headed for some kind of imminent, WCW-style implosion. People have it in their heads here that the only way a company can 'fail' is for it to suddenly go bankrupt and close their doors one Thursday night, because that's what happened to WCW and ECW. What it does mean is that TNA is headed for structural changes in the way it does business, and that means a lot more than letting go of a few performers. Here's what you can expect will shape the future of TNA for the next few years:

Panda Energy has cut the lifeline. This one's easy to discern. Talent is released in droves, and the value of the people they've cut isn't being saved for new, high-profile signings, and won't be. (Tito and Rampage aren't getting a dime from TNA, count on it.) They've cancelled upcoming dates on their road tour with no explanation. Talent is being paid two months late, and that's a real mindfuck- normally, that's the very last thing that happens before a company goes broke and the owners disappear. Talent held what appears to be a wildcat strike at an event in Missouri. A quick rash of international television deals suddenly appears at the same time as this, which would suggest that TNA's dropped the price on those in order to close a certain deal and get some cash. Taken all together, the inescapable conclusion is that Panda Energy has said there will be no more injection funds for TNA.

This means you're going to see a much leaner organization over the next couple of years. Don't expect Hulk Hogan's contract to be renewed when it comes up. Don't expect TNA to win any battle for a performers' services if they have to bid against the WWE. They're going to move towards a cast of low-cost, easily replaceable performers augmented by a couple of familiar names to fans; which is sort of what they do now, only knock it down a couple of pegs.

TNA won't go broke, but they might get sold. There's still a spot on SpikeTV for TNA- that's not in danger. TNA doesn't have a WCW-style liability where they have to depend on their airing network for financial support. There's some value in TNA as an established business; setting up a professional wrestling organization takes years, and TNA could be an attractive package to someone looking to get into the game without building from the ground up. If TNA gets sold to another ownership group, things will get very interesting indeed, as that will almost certainly be accompanied by another huge financial push for TNA.

Whatever happens, the WWE will not be the buyer. The WWE would only purchase TNA's assets in the event that Panda Energy couldn't find a buyer and wanted to sell at any price, because there's nothing the WWE needs out of TNA. They could make DVD's from the tape library, but that's not worth buying the whole company for.

They'll stay on the road. There's no putting this genie back in the bottle. Don't buy into the Kool-Aid that TNA's financial troubles are a sudden result of their road touring; while live television and the associated tour isn't cheap, all of those costs are ones you can anticipate in advance. TNA hasn't been doing road television that long. I'm far more willing to believe that TNA is trying to use public relations savvy to cover an expected loss than I am willing to believe that they are so ferociously incompetent as to spend millions of dollars without a plan to recoup the money.

I expect that they planned for a pretty rough loss, and got it and worse- but they aren't freaking out, panicking, and trying to get back into the studio. If they didn't know road TV would cost them a lot short-term, with not much to prove from it, they deserve to lose tons of money.

Ratings will drop- except this time, it'll be expected. TNA is going to spend less money in the future, which means less 'big name stars'; the people who drive the ratings. However, it's not the total ratings points that are the key metrics of television success; it's ratings vs. expenses. If TNA can cut their operating expenses by 30%, while dropping to a .85, that's still a gain for them.

No more long-term contracts. The deals that locked up AJ Styles and Bobby Roode are emphatically done. Who on earth would lock themselves long-term into a company which is downsizing operations? Kids, if you've made it this far, never do that. It's financial suicide.


People here, when talking about TNA, insist upon "success or failure, profitable or not, yes or no" answers. It's not that simple. TNA is unquestionably in scary financial shape right now, but even given how bad things look currently, I still think the letters TNA will still be used in 2018. How, where, and who will be using them is what's going to define this era in professional wrestling.

 

[GameOver]

WCW and ECW didn't just go bankrupt and close there doors on one night, ECW was never financially well off enough to keep going and Heyman's pig headedness killed any chance of them having a TV/PPV deal that happened over a year

WCW's cash flow was drying up long b4 Ted finally sold it off to Vince, b4 Bischoff came in WCW was barely a global force and they threw every cent they could get hold of to get to WWF's level of exposure and it just wasn't sustainable when they were making so many stupid mistakes on camera. the same has to be happening in TNA which you don't have to be a rocket scientist or know what's going on backstage to guess they can't be making enough of a profit to move forward whether they are going broke or not is upto speculation but they aren't profitable enough to be where they are or want to be. Hell they are going back to giving away 90min PPV's for free and charging for crap that is taped months in advance and has no consistancy in any storylines relating to the main product. And are grasping at straws every single week to try and get a few more people to watch

I agree that they aren't going to just go bye bye this year or next year, but beyond that they maywell go backwards in terms of global exposure and back to just concentrating on US and maybe UK where they have the best opportunity to make some money.

Either way the future is not bright for them they have nothing coming up to take over from the originals, they have very little money from PPV buys, a hell of a lot of expenses to pay and a chick as the figurehead who clearly has no clue what they are doing. and that is sad, cause it had so much potential as something different and something for the future when the Cena era in WWE was just starting. IMO they may have expanded but they went backwards in terms of entertainment and what TNA was, Total Nonstop Action.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Taken all together, the inescapable conclusion is that Panda Energy has said there will be no more injection funds for TNA.

People often don't understand that investors want to eventually see a return on their money. They might be willing to keep injecting funds into the company, but the idea is that the company eventually earn enough operating income to sustain themselves. If the venture never achieves profitability, yet the investor keeps supplying funds to keep the company in operation, it's called "throwing good money after bad" if there's really no chance of the company ever supporting itself.

No, I'm not saying this is the case with TNA. Perhaps they're almost all the way to becoming a self-sustaining entity. Since they aren't required to release financial figures, they can keep on sending out press releases that tell us things are better than ever; there's nothing illegal about that.

Many folks on this board have stated they "know" TNA is profitable, just because they company has been around this long. They're unable to see that TNA might be losing money through their daily operations; that it's the periodic injections of cash that are covering up the fact that the company is paying out more than they're taking in.

If that's so, the investor eventually closes the cash box. The hope is that they do that when the company can sustain itself.....but if TNA can't meet it's payroll and is trimming the roster and cancelling house shows, the reality might be quite different.

Here's hoping TNA can either support itself, or that Panda (or whomever their investors are) keep the funds coming until they can. It would be awful to see all this time, effort and money go to waste.

 

[MWRedskins]

i never knew that WCW ever went bankrupt. were they bought, yes, but bankrupt, no. they were losing money, but they were owned by AOL/Time Warner who was just fine on money, so WCW really never went bankrupt (from what i read) and they didnt close their doors due to bankruptcy, they closed their doors because Jamie Kellner didnt want WCW and him canceling WCW programming ended Bischoff's pursuit of buying WCW. as for the comparison of TNA and WCW, some people like to make this comparison, but there are a few differences. WCW had a few great talents (Sting, Mysterio, Kidman, Helms and others), but it also had his share of guys who were clearly green or werent that good in the ring. also WCW overpaid guys who didnt deserve the money they were paid. tna does have (kinda) a leader in Dixie Carter where WCW, you didnt know who was in charge at times (from what Benoit said). that's why i dont like the comparison with TNA and WCW, but TNA is having it's issues. they can be fixed, but it will take very hard work.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

i never knew that WCW ever went bankrupt. were they bought, yes, but bankrupt, no. they were losing money, but they were owned by AOL/Time Warner who was just fine on money, so WCW really never went bankrupt (from what i read) and they didnt close their doors due to bankruptcy, they closed their doors because Jamie Kellner didnt want WCW and him canceling WCW programming ended Bischoff's pursuit of buying WCW. as for the comparison of TNA and WCW, some people like to make this comparison, but there are a few differences. WCW had a few great talents (Sting, Mysterio, Kidman, Helms and others), but it also had his share of guys who were clearly green or werent that good in the ring. also WCW overpaid guys who didnt deserve the money they were paid. tna does have (kinda) a leader in Dixie Carter where WCW, you didnt know who was in charge at times (from what Benoit said). that's why i dont like the comparison with TNA and WCW, but TNA is having it's issues. they can be fixed, but it will take very hard work.

TNA is being compared to WCW simply because it's the number two company. When you really look into it, the similarities are not strong enough to warrant constant comparison with WCW. Every confusing storyline TNA does immediately takes people to the WCW comparison because WCW had confusing storylines. Yet when WWE has one it doesn't even cross people's minds. Again, it's because TNA is number two. If WWE was number two we'd get the exact same moronic comparisons between WWE and WCW.

As far as TNA's issues, TNA's problem is that it opens itself up in different ways. Even though it's a private company, we can guess something is going on. The WWE is much better on that front. They really know how to cover their weaknesses up and fool you into thinking they're alright. Hell, they came back from Benoit and Owen Hart, let alone a bit of financial troubles.

What surprises me is the reaction to TNA's issues and the reaction to WWE's issues. When TNA releases a few talent, we immediately assume it's because they want to cut back on their finances because they're neck deep in the smelly stuff. I bet it's for financial reasons but not red alert financial issues.

Yet when WWE releases their PPV buyrate numbers, they're all lower than last year. Their ratings seem to be below the expected number and they're slacking in almost every department. Despite all of that however I don't see a single mention of WWE being in trouble.

Of course this perception comes from the fact that fans perceive WWE as financially secure. They can do whatever they want, lose as much money as they want, spend as much money on useless projects like WWE films, extra TV shows, a network, signing a bunch of nobodies who they'll never use further cramming their 67 hours of weekly programming with fodder, and we still think they'll have enough to solve every hunger problem on the planet. However, when TNA keeps Hogan under contract everyone loses their shit.

Why? You don't think WWE can run out of money? TNA is backed up by Panda Energy. P.E can put McMahon and all of his wealth in their back pocket. Even if they go over board, you better believe Panda Energy will bump them right back. If it was any other venture they'd drop them like a hot potato but it's not. It's Dixie's pet project. Family matters in these cases. TNA will be cut off Panda Energy only if Dixie decides to do it.

That's why I don't get the psychotic freaking out some people are doing. It's almost like a lot of them wish TNA started sinking just for the sake of saying "I told you so". And why? Because they released a few people they never use (nor is anyone interested in seeing, so technically they did us a favor), they added Ortiz to their roster who is likely not paid by TNA so all they have to sacrifice is 5 minutes out of a 120 minute broadcast and Kurt Angle got drunk for the 100th time which in no way is TNA's fault.

I just don't understand what alarms people so damn much. TNA's released people before, TNA's signed MMA fighters before (two times) and Kurt's got a DWI before. What's the big deal? Is it only because these things happened roughly at the same time? Or is it because that's what the scum sheets have been focusing on for the last three months, making people think there IS something major going on? I swear, they can influence people more than you think. As soon as I read a couple of columns on any subject, seconds after I see people plagiarizing the opinions their read, pawning them off as their own, in these forums right here. It happened with the Aries/Hemme "scandal", it's happening again with this.

 

[Rayne]

i never knew that WCW ever went bankrupt. were they bought, yes, but bankrupt, no. they were losing money, but they were owned by AOL/Time Warner who was just fine on money, so WCW really never went bankrupt (from what i read) and they didnt close their doors due to bankruptcy, they closed their doors because Jamie Kellner didnt want WCW and him canceling WCW programming ended Bischoff's pursuit of buying WCW. as for the comparison of TNA and WCW, some people like to make this comparison, but there are a few differences. WCW had a few great talents (Sting, Mysterio, Kidman, Helms and others), but it also had his share of guys who were clearly green or werent that good in the ring. also WCW overpaid guys who didnt deserve the money they were paid. tna does have (kinda) a leader in Dixie Carter where WCW, you didnt know who was in charge at times (from what Benoit said). that's why i dont like the comparison with TNA and WCW, but TNA is having it's issues. they can be fixed, but it will take very hard work.

*sigh* Like I've already posted several dozen times on this board. Just because someone has money does not mean that their interests in spending it are the same as yours. Professional wrestling fans want to see guys in spandex do cool flips, and since its not THEIR money, they're content to say "these guys have lots of money, clearly they'll spend all of it trying to please me!" Meanwhile, the people who own and operate businesses- they're looking for a profit. They're looking to spend some of their money, and if it doesn't result in getting more back then they spent, they move on. People who have money, have it because they didn't spend it stupidly.

On that note, if you really believe that the main reason WCW went under was because a television executive just didn't like that wrasslin' stuff, you're an idiot and this post was not intended for you.

The Fusient/Bischoff offer which so often gets cited was not a legitimate one for a company looking to divorce itself from the financial responsibility of operating a television show. (The usual arrangement is that a broadcaster purchases shows from a production company; when a broadcaster is also the production company, as is the case with ROH, it's usually because the broadcaster wants the tentpole value of the programming as opposed to the profit.) The offer was dependent upon Time Warner/AOL re-committing themselves to WCW by offering a multi-year, guaranteed television deal (unheard of in the industry, especially for shows which were nose-diving in the ratings), while also taking responsibility for short-term cash flow, which was exactly why Time Warner/AOL was trying to get out of producing WCW. The offer Fusient/Bischoff made wasn't a real one; it consisted of fluffed up numbers that Eric Bischoff could turn around later and cry to people "I tried to save WCW, but those other people wouldn't let me!" Smart on him; it's gotten him two more jobs in the industry.

It's just too tough for some people to believe that WCW was a financial mess, even though they ended up replacing Eric Bischoff with an accountant, of all people. (Rub some brain cells together- what is the only reason you'd put an accountant in charge of a company?) It's easier to believe that WCW was treated unfairly, because that's what all the professional wrestlers who were working there- and wanted jobs later in the industry- were saying.

The same people running WCW are now running TNA. There's some food for thought.

 

[Rayne]

Why? You don't think WWE can run out of money? TNA is backed up by Panda Energy. P.E can put McMahon and all of his wealth in their back pocket. Even if they go over board, you better believe Panda Energy will bump them right back. If it was any other venture they'd drop them like a hot potato but it's not. It's Dixie's pet project. Family matters in these cases. TNA will be cut off Panda Energy only if Dixie decides to do it.

Yes, Panda Energy will bump them right back, which is why "paperwork issues" suddenly prevent performers from appearing right at the same time it's being leaked that they can't pay their performers, at the same time they're cancelling shows with four-week notice. But that was like, two weeks ago, right? It must have been long fixed by now, and it's just those dastardly dirt sheets and that stupidhead Mark Madden trying to score points, right? Because that's how business works- one division goes "wow, I haven't looked at our finances in months. Quick, call Daddy!" Right?

Of course, you know that it's Dixie's pet project, and thus it must be so important that they'd never tell Dixie "nice try, kid". You're up on the Carter family dynamics; what, are you the ******ed Carter stepson? This wouldn't be at all colored by your rampant TNA fanboism, would it?

For fucks' sake, man, I addressed this point directly. I even used big bold letters. Did you even read the initial post people are responding to?

 

[MWRedskins]

On that note, if you really believe that the main reason WCW went under was because a television executive just didn't like that wrasslin' stuff, you're an idiot and this post was not intended for you.

i think Keller pulling the plug was the a key reason why WCW did go off the air. i'm not saying he's the only guy to kill WCW, WCW had a BOATLOAD of issues before Keller's official ending of it, but i do think he's a key reason, now there were other reasons it died, like the fact that it didnt have the fans or ppv buys, that it had as the most fans turned on them and of course insane contracts, but Keller's selling it to McMahon was the one that was the reason why it died then.

 

[UFOcalling]

Of course, you know that it's Dixie's pet project, and thus it must be so important that they'd never tell Dixie "nice try, kid". You're up on the Carter family dynamics; what, are you the ******ed Carter stepson? This wouldn't be at all colored by your rampant TNA fanboism, would it?

For fucks' sake, man, I addressed this point directly. I even used big bold letters. Did you even read the initial post people are responding to?

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth (or keyboard), but I think the point that was trying to be made was that it seems that Dixie would do just about anything to try to keep TNA afloat. Much how Vince would do the same to keep the WWE afloat. A lot of people seem to have selective memories, and forget that the WWF almost went under back when WCW was still on top. If Vince was less passionate about his company, he could have easily thrown in the towel and just said "fuck it". If the WWF was being backed financially by the USA Channel, they could have easily said "fuck it", just like AOL/Time Warner and/or Ted Turner did for WCW. Vince didn't throw in the towel though, he did what he had to do to keep the WWF alive and kicking. I'm sure a lot of others in Vince's position back then would've sold the company off, and cut their losses. It was Vince's passion that kept the WWF alive back then.

Ted Turner didn't have that "McMahon passion" that Bischoff did, and since it wasn't Bischoff's decision to make - boom - WCW is gone. Just like that. If it would have been up to Bischoff (if he was the financial backer), Bischoff would have probably kept WCW going for as long as he could...up to the point where he was living in a one bedroom apartment with no cable TV or heat. In fact, I seem to remember hearing that Bischoff did want to buy WCW (and he could have afforded it)...but it was offered to WWF first, and Vince jumped at the chance to own his former competition. Again, I believe that was Vince & Co. acting on their passion for the business - as well as the opportunity to make money from the WCW brand (DVDs, talent, etc).

Two more examples of Vince's passion outside of the WWF are the XFL & WWE Films. The XFL lasted....what, one season? I'd bet that Vince was told by financial advisers to pull the plug earlier than he did; but it was his passion for professional football that made Vince see the season out to the very end. Has WWE films turned a profit on any of their movies? I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine that The Marine, The Marine 2, See No Evil or The Call made Vince a hell of a lot of money. Like it was said earlier, WWE Films seems more like Vince's pet project....one that he doesn't want to stop doing, even if he isn't making much money (or possibly even losing it).

Again, Turner (and of course AOL/Time Warner) didn't have the passion for WCW that Vince had/has for the WWF/E. Collectively, they saw a company (WCW) that was losing money and pulled the plug. A great business decision, when you're in the business of making money...which every business should be, but there are some pigheaded, passionate people at the top of these companies that don't just throw in the towel when it seems like the "smart decision" (seemingly) to everyone else.

Vince came through in a major way back in the late 90s though, since he was able to steal the HUGE wrestling audience (at the time) back from WCW (the same audience that WCW not only stole from the WWF, but also managed to grow considerably - becoming the number one show on cable every week). Vince did so by taking a big risk...that risk being the Attitude Era. Yes, he stole Paul Heyman's ECW template - by making the WWF more adult oriented, but it worked. It might not have, it was Vince's last ditch effort and it paid off in spades.

The major difference now is that there isn't as big of an audience for wrestling, period. In the '90s, it was doing huge numbers. Even if TNA was able to "steal" the WWE's audience, they would just be doing the same numbers that the WWE does. Yes, that would be a "victory" for TNA - but right now Vince & Co. are in scramble mode over the low TV ratings and PPV buys (from everything I've read lately, at least).

I think the major point to be made is that Dixie seems just as passionate (or stubborn, depending on which way you look at it) about Impact Wrestling as Vince is about the WWE (and in a similar fashion, WWE Films). As long as there's a glimmer of hope in the horizon, I believe that Dixie won't allow Impact Wrestling to go under until all hope is completely abandoned...and that seems a long way off.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

Yes, Panda Energy will bump them right back, which is why "paperwork issues" suddenly prevent performers from appearing right at the same time it's being leaked that they can't pay their performers, at the same time they're cancelling shows with four-week notice. But that was like, two weeks ago, right? It must have been long fixed by now, and it's just those dastardly dirt sheets and that stupidhead Mark Madden trying to score points, right? Because that's how business works- one division goes "wow, I haven't looked at our finances in months. Quick, call Daddy!" Right?

Of course, you know that it's Dixie's pet project, and thus it must be so important that they'd never tell Dixie "nice try, kid". You're up on the Carter family dynamics; what, are you the ******ed Carter stepson? This wouldn't be at all colored by your rampant TNA fanboism, would it?

For fucks' sake, man, I addressed this point directly. I even used big bold letters. Did you even read the initial post people are responding to?

Relax, Chuckles. I was talking about Panda Energy coming in when TNA flat lines. I'm talking about Panda Energy coming in when TNA is two cent away from becoming the property of someone else. That's when Panda Energy will step in, in my opinion. In the worst case scenario. Not when someone gets their payment later than they should. That's not a problem unless they never get paid. Everyone I know is complaining about similar issues.

I'm not up on anyone's dynamics, Mr.Kettle. Here you are, Captain Business Analyst, and you call me out on it. For shame. I simply think that if TNA was ready to go out of business or was losing money like crazy, Panda Energy would take some of the load off due to the fact that the company is ran by Bob Carter's daughter. Had this been any other similar project, a business which only costs money would have been dropped. Don't sit there and act like Dixie being the daughter of Bob Carter doesn't affect anything. There's a reason they're involved in the first place and I bet it's not because Bruno Sammartino was Bob Carter's favorite wrestler. Dixie didn't buy TNA with her own funds. Panda Energy bought most of it and appointed Dixie as the President of the company. Which party do YOU think wanted this to happen in the first place? Panda Energy or Dixie Carter? If the dynamics within the Carter family aren't similar to "Daddy can we keep TNA? I'll feed it." then why the fuck was this purchase made in the first place? They make pipelines and power plants, dude. They haven't subsidized a single company in the entertainment industry since. Dixie wants, Dixie gets.

TNA is a way for Carter to stay in the entertainment industry. She was involved with music and things of that nature prior to TNA and her field is much closer to TNA than making power plants. Her dad bought her a fucking company to run. Plain and simle. And her dad's gonna make sure his daughter has a company to run. Business or not, they're family and she's stubborn enough to make sure the money keeps flowing. That's my take on it. I've got plenty of friends with influential parents and they end up working for them in one way or the other. What does that mean? Employment for life. Doubt Dixie's rich kid situation is any different.

Also, I usually read all opening posts, except the ones that are three to four pages long. Moreover, I was *********ing to a TNA's logo whilst writing the other one (and this one), so forgive me.

Fact is - TNA isn't in any trouble. Any REAL trouble. Every company has bad periods, financially. If they freaked out about every single one of them TNA wouldn't be here right now. For fuck's sake, they've had it worse back in the day and they grew a company out of it.

 

[MrHashasheen]

Ted Turner didn't have that "McMahon passion" that Bischoff did, and since it wasn't Bischoff's decision to make - boom - WCW is gone. Just like that. If it would have been up to Bischoff (if he was the financial backer), Bischoff would have probably kept WCW going for as long as he could...up to the point where he was living in a one bedroom apartment with no cable TV or heat. In fact, I seem to remember hearing that Bischoff did want to buy WCW (and he could have afforded it)...but it was offered to WWF first, and Vince jumped at the chance to own his former competition. Again, I believe that was Vince & Co. acting on their passion for the business - as well as the opportunity to make money from the WCW brand (DVDs, talent, etc).

1. Bischoff was fine with leaving the company and going home back in 1999, and he was out of the business for years before joining the WWE and before joining TNA. All the times he was out, he was more than happy to be working in Hollywood and television producing non-wrestling stuff.
2. Bischoff led a coalition to buy WCW, but it fell apart when they cancelled the shows, which is when WWE got it for practically nothing. Bischoff didn't have the money himself, just the backers.
3. Turner didn't have much influence regarding WCW by 2000. He had some regarding buy-outs (he rejected two for over half a billion dollars during the summer of 2000 when the merger was still young), but otherwise he'd been turned into a major stockholder by Warner's merger with AOL and even he couldn't stop the sale in 2001. Considering he sunk hundreds of millions of dollars of his own money into the company since day 1, I don't think he has anything to prove regarding his support for WCW as a franchise.

Two more examples of Vince's passion outside of the WWF are the XFL & WWE Films. The XFL lasted....what, one season? I'd bet that Vince was told by financial advisers to pull the plug earlier than he did; but it was his passion for professional football that made Vince see the season out to the very end. Has WWE films turned a profit on any of their movies? I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine that The Marine, The Marine 2, See No Evil or The Call made Vince a hell of a lot of money. Like it was said earlier, WWE Films seems more like Vince's pet project....one that he doesn't want to stop doing, even if he isn't making much money (or possibly even losing it).

WWE Films makes some profit (mostly from their later films), but otherwise it's an ongoing money sink that Vince continues because he wants the WWE to be a big brand name outside of wrestling.

 

[Rayne]

Fact is - TNA isn't in any trouble. Any REAL trouble. Every company has bad periods, financially. If they freaked out about every single one of them TNA wouldn't be here right now. For fuck's sake, they've had it worse back in the day and they grew a company out of it.

I absolutely love the part how you describe not being able to pay your employees as "not getting their money on time". You wonder why I mock you repeatedly, when you have this absurd apologist streak for TNA. TNA isn't in any real trouble- professional wrestling companies cancel dates on four weeks notice all the time. TNA can't be in any real trouble- every company has "paperwork issues" which prevent almost all of their staff from performing, right? Every company goes through periods where they can't pay their employees- that's just a "bad period".

Much like how you said TNA doesn't condone Kurt Angle's drinking, when that's exactly what they've done three times in a row. But he's going to celebrity rehab now! That shows they're serious.

Much like how you said Christie Hemme would "have a case" for sexual harassment only if she was violently raped in the locker room.

Understand, I'm not laughing at TNA's troubles. Those are serious. I'm laughing at your complete head-in-the-sand denial of any of TNA's problems, while you try to pretend you're not a raving fanboi. You've gotten so used to blaming dirt sheets and Mark Madden that you can't recognize something that's actually wrong when someone explains it step by step for you. The good times will roll forever, right? Because the good times have rolled in the past?

Yes, you're exactly the person- Chuckles- who can be trusted to provide an objective view on a companies' health. Of course Panda Energy would step in with a huge lifeline at the last minute- they must have the exact same interests as you, correct? They must want exactly what you want, right?

We're past the point where I pretend to debate this with you; at this point, all the evidence of TNA's financial troubles is in blatant, plain sight. I'd wonder if your a paid voice for TNA on these boards, but I'm sure even TNA- budget problems aside- could afford to pay a better spokesperson.

 

[JJYanks121]

I love you Rayne, I really do. You're bright, you support your theories with evidence, and you are well spoken (or well written as it were). Of course, you knew there would be backlash to what you said.

Of course, my buddy Zevon had to blindly back TNA because much like Tweeder drinks beer and Billy Bob cries, Zevon Zion defends TNA. They can do no wrong! Of course, to do so this time, he claims that WWE is losing money because he sees slightly lower ratings. Of course, WWE, a publicly traded company, just released their Second Quarter financials which show a significant profit but fuck facts and figures! Plus, declining ratings definitely mean decline money........except if you're TNA and they sign "international contracts" that magically put the company into profitland.

So basically, what you'd have us believe is that TNA makes a profit when all of these issues are at hand but WWE doesn't when THEY SHOW THEY DO. Remember, WWE is the public company. We know how much they make because they are legally required to release those figures and they do. How you can still miss that, Zevon, is beyond me and is a new level of denial.

Now, the truth of the matter is that at some point, the parent company may decide it's a bad investment and stop investing. That is what happened with WCW and while the situations are different based on the type of company doing the investing and based on the fact that WCW's parent company owned the TV rights, it still holds true that if you have that parent company, they have no obligation to continue to pump in money. If you watch "Shark Tank", you'll know that those investors will invest initial money and then sometimes more money to help businesses they believe in but if the business starts to fail, they are going to cut their losses and move on. That's how business works and that's what Rayne was trying to show.

Fans or not, it's something to be aware of and this was a qualty post.

 

[Rayne]

Now, the truth of the matter is that at some point, the parent company may decide it's a bad investment and stop investing. That is what happened with WCW and while the situations are different based on the type of company doing the investing and based on the fact that WCW's parent company owned the TV rights, it still holds true that if you have that parent company, they have no obligation to continue to pump in money. If you watch "Shark Tank", you'll know that those investors will invest initial money and then sometimes more money to help businesses they believe in but if the business starts to fail, they are going to cut their losses and move on. That's how business works and that's what Rayne was trying to show.

Thanks for the compliments, even though I trimmed them for the sake of brevity.

Panda Energy Misconception #1 on this board is that because Panda Energy is run by a Carter, and TNA is run by a Carter Jr., that means there's an unlimited flow of cash available to TNA, with only Bob Carter in the way of that. This is completely wrong. Panda Energy is a privately held company owned primarily by the Carters- but not entirely. (They have more than three shareholders, and less than five hundred.) If Bob Carter makes poor business decisions, his co-investors take their money out of Panda Energy and put it elsewhere. TNA is a pretty blatant glamour buy in the Panda Energy portfolio, but so long as the losses are small, people won't really give a shit. They will give a shit when they realize that a percentage of their money going into Panda Energy is going towards a glamour based money drain.

Which is why Panda Energy has cut off the flow of cash to TNA recently. A company with unlimited access to money is able to pay its employees; in any other business besides professional wrestling, TNA would have folded in early July. Fortunately for TNA, all of their performers have nowhere else to go. The WWE would take three or four to try to steal back some TNA fans, and the rest would be working for Dragon Gate. This is why we saw those 'paperwork issues' in Missouri which was almost certainly a wildcat strike by performers- they can't walk off the job, but if you're two months behind on your check, you have to do something to get attention.

I can promise you that TNA's corporate staff got paid on time; there are many more 'social media director' or 'advertising coordinator' positions available in the world than there are 'professional wrestler' positions. If you don't pay your corporate staff, they'll take other jobs, even if you start paying them. (Zeven- being unable to pay your employees is the absolute worst sign of business instability. It is the last thing most companies do before they go broke. You are cute when you try to play economics with the big boys. Much cuter than when you try to describe a brutal rape as the standard for 'having a case' for sexual harassment. You'll never live your ignorance on that one down, I promise.)

Some people here get it, and some people here like watching television. At the end of the day, a business has to show that it makes money for the people who own it. There are almost no 100% self-owned companies left in the world larger than a couple dozen people. At the end of the day, no matter how large your business is, there is always someone else you depend on who is saying 'where's mine?'

TNA is no different- even if it got a head start by being a glamour project.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I really don't understand this commotion about TNA being in a financial distress. They're doing fine. If they were in a struggle, would they really have Hulk Hogan, Sting, Kurt Angle, Rampage Jackson ans (possibly) MMA legend Tito Ortiz employed? It doesn't add up. All of these men earn over $500,000 and the travel costs are $600,000 per taping. They would know what they are doing and how much it would all cost. So what if they've made a few cuts? If they don't feel those wrestlers are having an affect on the roster or if they can't come up with a deal all parties are happy with, then obviously cuts will be made. They've made cuts before so what's the difference now? It may be coincidental that they have been straight after the move to travelling every fortnight, but I thinm it's just to save as much as. Remember WWE's roster cut about 3 years ago when Mickie James, Shelton Benjamin, Mike Knox, Jimmy Wang Yang and others were released? It was just an everyday business decision and that company doesn't look like it has a serious financial issue.

Moving on to the recently cancelled events and issue where about seven wrestlers didn't turn up to a live event, I think that it's just ironic and pycologiacally, many are treating it as a financial issue. Haven't they cancelled events before. Haven't the WWE? These were just two while the company has about 4 live events a week. If there was really a problem, I would think that more shows would be cancelled. Also it was reported why Sabin and co were not at the house show in Missouri, it had nothing to do with money. And yes, maybe there was a time where TNA was cancelled in Australia but they now have TNA back on their screens while they continue to make more TV deals as done with India just last week.

Like Zeven said; all companies and industries have their times, and for the benefit of the company, they make several decisions to save money for many reasons. I understand that TNA might/are making a loss, but it's because of the recent switch to travelling and airing only four PPV's per year, which most of us know are good moves as they can now have more focus on PPV's and so now that they can look more like a Professional Wrestling company. No matter what they do, they won't gain more fans or ever be on a competitive scale with the WWE. They have Hulk Hogan and arguably the better product, but WWE has the money. That's exactly what WCW used to compete and that's what TNA has to. Making these recent changes are getting them some small attention but that's good. They're trying to expand and I believe that is the only way for more popularity and attention. Many will disagree but I think that they should stick with the route they're on right now.

 

[Rayne]

Individually, no. None of those issues are a big deal.

The issue is that all of them- I note that like Zeven, you try to avoid paying any attention to the fact that TNA could not pay their employees- occurred during two weeks in July. One of those events? Coincidence, no big deal. Two of those events? That's a rough stretch. Being unable to pay your employees, having your employees suddenly start bailing on events (has that happened before to TNA, excluding weather related incidents), cancelling events, and releasing performers at the same time?

Well, some people were surprised at the way WCW went down as well, when people had been saying for years they were in financial trouble. Some people still refuse to learn the lesson of that, and insist it failed because of a meanie television executive.

And, yes, I totally believe a company would overspend and place performers under contract in the hopes of future growth, because it happens all the time. That's exactly what happened to WCW, except they compounded the fuck-up by signing employees to Time Warner. This isn't the "people in business don't ever make mistakes" canard that gets thrown around these boards, is it?

What some people are furiously trying not to understand here is that TNA's financial troubles don't necessarily imply that the company will go out of business in a spectacular WCW-style failure. (Why the hell must it always be yes or no with people here?!?!?!) It absolutely does imply that TNA is in for a restructuring over the next year, which we are seeing the opening phases of right now.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I don't know how TNA breaks through and makes money. Even if they put a more attractive product out there, WWE is so saturated in the market there is not much of an appetite left for another two hours of wrestling a week. I thought they were making gains by improvements in production, live television, and road trips but it may have been a hail mary.

My only advice may be for them to switch to a less competitive night like Saturday. I know there is less of an audience, but wrestling fans tend to not have the most vibrate social lives and may be more likely to tune in when not faced with competition from CBS' strong Thursday line-up and the occassional NFL game. Maybe even go after Smackdown's small Friday audience.

Have TNA been pulling in decent gates at their Impact tapings? I know it is expensive, but a lot of that cost should be offset by the paying fans (as opposed to the IZ tourists).

In the end I'm not sure if TNA survives. The negativity has been pretty thick around here and that negativity may push the fans further away faster. I do agree with Rayne 100% on one thing - TNA financial situation is far more interesting than WWE's, it's probably more interesting than the combined product of both organization right now.

 

[The Roadie]

Don't expect Hulk Hogan's contract to be renewed when it comes up. Don't expect TNA to win any battle for a performers' services if they have to

Think you'll find Hogan is contracted to Spike, not TNA. So TNA aren't paying for him.

 

[Rayne]

Don't expect Hulk Hogan's contract to be renewed when it comes up. Don't expect TNA to win any battle for a performers' services if they have to

Think you'll find Hogan is contracted to Spike, not TNA. So TNA aren't paying for him.

Which, considering that SpikeTV uses Hulk Hogan for absolutely zero beyond TNA Impact, would not only make absolutely no sense, but would imply that Spike learned absolutely nothing from what happened with Time Warner.

But this would be meaningless regardless. Let's say SpikeTV execs are completely brainless and are willing to foot the bill for an employee who won't do any work for them. (Unlike WCW and Time Warner, SpikeTV is not a parent company of TNA.) Wouldn't they expect to see some payoff for that large expense? Which there hasn't been? Are you implying that because TNA isn't footing the bill (again, completely wrong, but I'm humoring you), SpikeTV will be happy to foot a limitless one?

People who have money have it either because they've invested it well, or their parents invested it well and they haven't pissed through it yet.