The Black Hole

[Lee]

How about all the feedback they request from people, all the internet web shows to promote their product. They obviously give a shit about the IWC to some extent, more than they would admit. When did WWE do that?

Quite often, they do it on things like PPV names etc, there's a poll on wwe.com about the million dollar belt at the moment.

When did WWE actually push a guy we wanted to be pushed? No wait, let me reprhase that, when's the last time they pushed a guy we liked and didn't abandon him?

Jack Swagger?

How's John Morisson doing? Or maybe Kofi Kingston. Hey remember when Evan Bourne was on fire in ECW? And Swagger's little push ... you know, before he started jobbing to Santino. You know, before he won the World Title.

Morrison beat the WHC last night, I don't know what they are doing with Kingston, Bourne? HAHAHA. Losing once isn't jobbing.

Dolph Ziggler is a great talent. Beating up big guys every week, outsmarting them and now...now he's...well..um...err...oh yeah, he's a nothing.

He's on a run at the moment getting his sleeper finisher over, a repush as you will.

When's the last time they had a champion we actually wanted?

Jack Swagger

I bet SHeamus' huge fan base helped him get the strap. I mean, he was on RAW for a month, I'm surprised he didn't debut with the title. Bet working out with Tripsie proved better than working your ass off.

So working in indies, FCW, ECW and then Raw ISN'T working your ass off?

Did we ever want Sheamus? Did we ever want Swagger? I don't think so.

YES YES PEOPLE DID I pretty much read every post made on this forum, what was the main thing people were bitching about last year? That the same people are in the ME, Batista, Cena, Trips, Orton, Taker and Edge. They jiggled it up a bit, gave us Swagger and Sheamus. So YES people did want those guys in the ME.

Swagger is a great talent, don't get me wrong. It was a nice move, but the guy doesn't deserve the title so soon and obviously they make it seem like just about any new pissant can win it these days and that's degrading.

So someone who was in ECW and held the ECW belt and then went to Raw didn't deserve the title? Who did then?

How about the endless bitching, crying and moaning by fans all around the globe, caused by the Hornswoggle saga and him beating Chavo week in and week out. Did WWE take notice? Yeah, you bet they did. Note the sarcasm.If you count stopping it after three straight months of same match, same mexican, same midget, different stipulation 'taking action' then go ahead.

There's a weird thing about Hornswoggle. I HATE the guy, but if you hear the pops he gets live then it's understandable WHY they do that.

Fact that the matter is, TNA is doing everything in their power to please their fans

Like keeping the six sided ring?

while Vince and the WWE are doing everything in their power to shove things down our throats and keeps their pockets full to the max. They create these new "superstars" which we're supposed to perceive as big time just because they held World Gold....until they lose it to John Cena who by the freaking way doesn't need the title in the first place, he's popular enough on his own and I don't think a Title around his waist will improve his drawing power nor hurt it. Are you kidding me? WWE's hurting my intelligence and I find cheap moves like that insulting to me and any self-respecting wrestling fan out there.

"He holds the title! Now believe he's good and cheer for him."

It's desperate and not to mention sad.

I'll give you this one

I used to love WWE back in the day. It's funny how hypocritical they are these days. Remember "Right to Censor"? Remember Kurt Angle and his PG Behavior and how much WE all hated the fact that they were goodie two shoes? Remember Rocky Maivia?

Or the fact that CM Punk is being booed in a glorified version of this gimmick?

Well it seems to me like WWE is actually RAN by "Right to Censor" and Mr.Abstinence Kurt Angle and Rocky.

Really? Rwally? I don't get people's problem with PG, it's not like cussing and boobs make for a better product.

Oh what, their prohibit chair shots and I'm supposed to think Vince gives a damn about his talent's health? Yeah, ding dong, NOW you realize it when they started dropping like flies.

Yeah because TNA have a wellness policy...

And even then, when they do absolutely nothing but punch and kick in the ring, they STILL get injured while TNA guys who do and were doing crazy ass shit for 7-8 years now are still going strong with barely any serious injuries. Can you tell the difference between shitty talent and top notch talent? I freaking hope so.

Because WWE guys work 300 days a year and TNA guys work about 100.

- What is TNA trying to do that WWE never did? Well, how about the whole ReAction thing. The "real" backstage scoop. I personally enjoy it. I know it's a worked shoot type of thing but hey they put some thought into it and it looks realistic.

So take the NXT idea, take the tough enough idea and make it that little bit different.

- TNA basically being the only wrestling promotion out there to utilize Facebook, Twitter and YouTube in the best possible way to show people what they're all about.

This is something I feel WWE is missing out on, something Shane was trying to push.

- Or maybe the fact that they push people because of their talent, not who they work out with or how far they're up someone's ass.

Like Abyss?

- Perhaps their storylines which seem too complicated to the simple minded WWE fan, TOO used to "You attacked me, I tell you how much I like you and then we face off".

Far from it, I've watched wrestling for 20 years, I understand complex storylines in other shows, it seems to me like TNA is going complex just for the sake of it.

- Maybe it's their new "ranking system". From what I hear even FANS would be able to vote on who should be a number one contender and all that crap. Oh my, that's so ignorant, right?

All rumours as of yet, wait until it's unveiled. Fans voting? Almost like cyber Sunday ey?

So I don't know, YOU tell ME, what is TNA doing different? Aside from being a WRESTLING company filled with WRESTLERS, I don't see a DAMN similarity between them. Oh yes, and a four sided ring with red ropes.

Now go ahead and tell me how much TNA looks like WCW.

Why bother? TNA has a great undercard/midcard plus the likes of Styles/Joe and that is quite entertaining to watch. I just hate when TNA marks seem to grasp that WWE can be good too.

--

Onto Shannon Moore. I agree that he's a tattooed whack job but I've not heard that opinion only from him. Initially I thought it's just some random banter by angry ex-WWE employees who just want to crap on the company for firing them but it doesn't seem that way. If you have at least one braincell on active duty you'll figure it out.

These guys are literally on the road almost all year long. I bet them big dough they earn is pretty sweet but I doubt they have time to spend it. Fact is, WWE is killing people's lives. People who actually want to have lives. A big company demands a lot, I agree, but I think they're abusing their control over their employees just a little bit. They suck the fun out of their guys and you can see it each and every week.

Did you read the article I posted? The one where Moore said he MISSED the WWE schedule? It's what they sign up for and just like any other job people need not rush in with two feet but think before they commit.

When's the last time you saw a WWE wrestler come out passionate and fired up. Ready to go. I sure as heck can't remember.

Last week when I was at SmackDown

There's something very nasty and wrong with this company and we can all feel it. Gives me a bad vibe for some reason.

Aww *hugs*

 

[Dwayne_Jason]

I might take Moore's statement a little more serious if he wasn't a hypocrite. This is the same guy that was in TNA after being released by the WWE, then as soon as WWE gave him another chance in 2006 and offered him a contract, he dipset real quick.

Attack on Person. That's like saying you can't talk about economics because you're a hobo. What he has done has nothing to do with the argument at hand but I get your point.

I think what Neon said was sorta correct and sorta not. If TNA is so great why fucked up ratings and if wrestling so bad why great ratings. Answer is: Kiddies and lack of commercialization and money. See TNA is the artist, it's great quality and amazing work but no money. WWE is the machine: Make a little bit worse quality but more of it in less time and a lot more money. WWE can really be compared to the U.S economy. They only work during a war. And not a pansy ass TNA vs WWE war I'm taking the previous monday night war. After that WWE realized that this attitude era is giving them a bad name, the WCW time is over, and finally his shit for brains wife Linda think she can actually run for office based on her Vince's bad rep. So what Vince decided to do in order to take over the world is to appeal to kids and he found it very, very VERY easy to do. Because Kids like comic books, they like silly shit that's sloppy and stupid for us. As far as Talent goes the best MEs out there deserve what they have: Cena, HHH, Orton all scratched their way to the top. Sheamus is HHH's workout buddy but he's decent in the ring and I give him credit for being his own man. Now here's the thing: The midcarders are in hell and in dilemma because Vince can instantly get them to do the most humiliating thing, one day and give them a legitimate push that seems legit the next. Take Kofi for example. I love BOOM BOOM BOOM, and I love his style and I am a great fan. He can show that he can deliver. Ala: Putting Orton through a table, Giving us a hell of a match against Sheamus, Put HHH out in the chamber by doing the boom drop, Jump from high places, Improvise VERY well in Ladder matches, his finisher is as quick and deceive as the RKO. He can talk, I'm sure. But he hasn't had the chance to. Take Kane for example: Extemely loyal, gets great pops but stuck in mid carder hell. If we look at TNA it's not the exact same thing except MEs deserve where they are. The point I'm making here is that WWE has the commercial power and TNA has fan base but commercials will always beat fans and that's why WWE is better in numbers because it's simply money while TNA is also about money it's more about passion than money. I'm not taking a standpoint here and only stating the facts. Now It's up to the next post to decide what they prefer. Personal choice prevails.

 

[DirtyJosé]

Let's go over a few things, shall we?

1: Vince McMahon is not the devil. He be a bit of a prick, or he may make decisions that don't make much sense or seem stupid, but that makes him no better or worse than most every other human being. Vince McMahon is not some demon worshipping pagan here to slowly kill wrestlers by breaking their careers and dreams.

He also is not evil for being a successful business man. He is not evil for marketing mainly towards a younger crowd that is the largest part of his revenue. He is not evil for utilizing people that proven and trusted employees have recommended. If some of you have had job before, you'd realize a lot of jobs are like that.

2: TNA guys are not, by nature, more passionate than WWE guys. People know what they are getting into when they sign the dotted line at WWE. You aren't signing your soul away, and you are only signing your life away in as much as you won't have much of one being on the road most every day. But you wouldn't live that life if you weren't passionate about it. When I read about guys sticking out 36 hours of travel (on bus!) getting to and almost 2 days delay leaving from a house show that they just as easily could have cancelled, I think "Damn, that's some fucking passion" (Also, "Damn, that's a fucked up bus ride"). TNA has a lot of passion too, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't appear to be the priority for them backstage. If that was the case, why did Christopher Daniels get dumped?

3: WWE currently doesn't offer health insurance, does TNA? I don't recall any promotion that did. The Wellness Policy has it's flaws, but the majority of it's impact has been good. TNA currently has no policy in place to monitor their performers health and treat problems before they become career or life threatening danger.

4: Shannon Moore is a hack who would best hope to be a jobber on WWE Superstars if it wasn't for his friends the Hardy's. He's pretty much a next generation Brutus Beefcake; when you buy one, you get the other. This is an instance of a stooge spinning hyperbole to kiss the new boss' feet.

5: Technically, any one getting a push is being "forced down our throats". So can we please stop citing Sheamus and Swagger as "being forced on us" when it's really no different from what anyone does. Even being fair and using your own criteria, if Sheamus and Swagger (and Cena) are being forced, then what about AJ Styles, Abyss, Rob Terry and The Band? In the end, it's the classic anti-WWE dogma; when things are paced and predictable it's boring, and when it's chaotic and accelerated it's forced. Just because you don't like them (and you are allowed not to) doesn't mean that it's a travesty they are being used. Like whiners going on about Cena; many, MANY more people do like him, and are willing to pay for his stuff and to see him perform, so how is it a crime against the industry to push him to the moon?

6: While I feel for anyone who loses a job, I don't feel these releases are symptomatic of a problem with WWE, nor is it something TNA (or it's spokesmen) should be touting over WWE as something that makes them superior (see also: Christopher Daniels, Consequences Creed).

Can't we all just get along without trying to paint the other as evil or corrupted? People get into this industry to entertain and to make money; didn't Hogan just finish saying that on Impact this week?

 

[JJYanks121]

And it's time to throw my hat in the ring. I find it funny that this is all based on a comment Shannon Moore made on Twitter. I said this in another thread and I'll say it again. Shannon has ALWAYS preferred TNA. I got this vibe from ACTUALLY TALKING TO HIM. Thus, I am not stating opinion. I am basing this on what he actually told me. He went back to the WWE in 2006 after a short stint in TNA because he NEEDED TO. Financially, he needed the paycheck as he was going through divorce and starting up his tattoo shop. However, he's a guy that has little marketability in the mainstream market as a wrestler, so TNA is better for him careerwise. Think about it though. He was having matches with Styles last stint in TNA and came back to WWE to be a nobody and was making a ton more money. I don't know where to go with that, but it's obvious that if you want to support a family, WWE compensates better.

As far as these comparisons and everyone getting snippy, it's a getting way out of hand. I will try and address some of the points made in the thread as I remember them, but I want to state that this thread shouldn't be all about company comparison.

1) I find it incredibly hilarious when people come on these boards and complain that WWE doesn't give the fans what they want. The fact that one individual might have a clue to what millions of fans want is laughable. What this statement usually means is that YOU individually want something and WWE didn't do it so you feel personally slighted. DEAL WITH IT! I'm a Yankee fan and there have been moves I've questioned but just because they didn't do what I want to do doesn't mean what they are doing is wrong.

2) I'm tired of people hearing a statement that is rumor/has little meaning and presenting it as fact in a weak argument. This "Sheamus is Triple H's workout buddy" thing is ******ed. Fact is, if you thought about it instead of hating on Triple H, you'd realize that Triple H CHOSE Sheamus to be his workout buddy because Sheamus was working his ass off. Another fact was that he was paying for himself to go to Raw when he was on ECW just so he can watch and learn. That's going the extra mile and I have a lot of respect for that. The fact that people interpret the situation in another way disgusts me. The kid puts in the time and that's something that makes him deserving of what he is getting. Not only that, but he has performed well as he's gotten the push. I'm the first to say I didn't see it coming, but he has justified the push by making people care about what he does. I have been impressed by his work lately and I think he deserves his spot. Plus, the dude worked overseas for years before getting to the WWE. Factor those years in and he's just as much a veteran as Cena, Orton or Batista.

3) TNA morale is much higher than WWE. This is completely and utterly false. Both companies have guys with high morale and low morale. That's kind of how the world works. For every guy that rags on WWE, there's another who is utterly grateful to be working there and loves every minute of it. For every TNA guy that is trying to push the company to new limits, there's another that is unhappy with his role or doesn't care and is just there to get paid. To pass off things like lockerroom differences as fact when you have never been in one is a very weak argument and certainly not an accurate one. I can give you names of guys on both sides of my argument, but I won't waste my time. Just understand that different type of guys prefer different environments which TNA and WWE offer.

If i had to try and define the difference in the companies, I'd do it like this. TNA is like a hobby that you like and put time into, whereas WWE is like a career that you have to love in order to make the sacrifices necessary to succeed. The guys in TNA do have less work days, this is true. They also get paid less and basically have free reign. There is a lot more structure with WWE, at least what I can gather. The guys that seem to like TNA are guys that either never got a chance or got very little chance with WWE or guys that just didn't like WWE's schedule. Far be it for me to question dedication, but I'm going controversial here and saying guys like RVD and Jeff Hardy who have stated on record that WWE's schedule was a hindrance are guys that don't "live the business 24/7". These are guys that like the business and happen to be good at it, but don't want it to consume their whole life. That is fine and good, and I'm all for them finding a way to work while pursuing other endeavors as well, but there is something about TNA that scares the crap out of me.

TNA reminds me of what was always wrong with the wrestling business. No wellness policy, whacking people in the head with chairs "because the other guy doesn't", bleeding all over the place, it all gives off a negative vibe. Even when I was in my teens during the attitude era, I found some of those things repulsive, but now I do even more. I am very happy with the fact that the WWE is finally taking steps to protect their talents. Is is way overdue? You bet it is. Is it necessary? Absolutely. Is TNA utterly ridiculous to ignore these things just to be different? You better believe it. I know fans of wrestling can be bloodthirsty animals, but is human life worth 5 minutes of your entertainment? I'm sorry if I'm a nerd, but I think guys can entertain me without going overboard with putting their lives on the line. As I get older, I can value a company taking steps to protect their workers. The battle isn't over, but it's certainly going in the right direction. TNA, however, I find despicable for ignoring these things and letting guys run wild. They are "concerned" about Jeff Hardy but do nothing for him. Other guys who are notorious for drug use, be it steroids, pot, etc. are allowed to do those things as long as they MIGHT help improve ratings. I'm sorry, but this is one area where i fully support WWE.

I'm not going to go much further because I could talk all day about this stuff. Just know that many of the arguments presented are not very good. Please refrain from "workout buddies" and "hornswoggle defines WWE" stuff as well as "TNA is WWE rejects" and "TNA listens to the fans more" on the other side. It's all weak especially when you do not back up the statements. Just know that Shannon is a guy who prefers TNA and basically said so. No need to bash each other because of one guy's feelings.

 

[InuJoshua]

To say that TNA is the passionate artist and the WWE is the evil, soulless corporate machine is asinine. Even the old territories were in it to make money. Did they always have the most talented people on top in a pre-WWE world? Of course not.

TNA signed most of their newest talent, (especially Hogan,) specifically for business reasons, make no mistake about it. Both have their high points and low points, and they're at opposite ends of wrestling cycles. If WWE never had a family friendly product, would most of us even be here right now? Most of us were hooked by what could be considered a "PG" era of the 80's. The smaller feds could get pretty brutal, but WWF gave that up when they went mainstream. We didn't complain back then because we didn't know better, but you can't say the Hulkamania era wasn't good for the business. It wouldn't be what it is today without it.

Fast forward to today, this PG era is like a reboot of the late 80's. The young fans of today are going to be the smarks of tomorrow, and I'm sure that in time, WWE will go into another "attitude" phase. Besides, most people forget that PG pretty much started in full force because of the Benoit incident. Do you expect them to have storylines with raping corpses, kidnappings and people getting hit with cars right after such a horrific event? WWE needed to adapt and that's what it did.

That's where TNA comes in. WWE has an audience of millions, and it's statistically impossible to please everyone. TNA is trying to pick up on the fans who are no longer happy with the WWE product. I was a big TNA mark a few years ago and told everyone to watch them over WWE. Throughout 2008 and 2009, TNA I felt didn't give me what I wanted and pushed people like Booker, Foley and Sting over Styles and Joe so I switched back to WWE and haven't looked back. Since Hogan joined, it's been such a mess that I can't honestly see myself crossing the line any time soon. Sure, AJ has been pushed to the top, but as a Ric Flair copy with Ric in the spotlight more than Styles. I watched TNA for the new talent, not for Hogan and Flair to overshadow the actual matches. How is that listening to the fans?

Let me ask some of the TNA fans this question: Let's say the WWE was still in an Attitude type era. Hogan shows up in TNA and says he's going to shake things up and restart the monday night wars like they have now. What do you think they would do? Because I think they would just do the opposite of what WWE does regardless of the situation, and would imagine they would try to pick up on fans WWE is missing, (in this case, families.) Make no mistake, TNA is catering to the IWC as a BUSINESS DECISION to pick up the fans most likely to leave WWE. Where were the polls and twitter feedback messages when we were tired of Suicide or when home grown talent was being pushed aside for over the hill wrestlers?

Lastly, it's ridiculous to say TNA has passion and WWE doesn't. Look at John Cena who regardless if you like his wrestling, always fires up the crowd and has always seem to enjoy what he does, even before he was big, then look at Jeff Hardy who moved to TNA so he could do drugs and not have to work nearly as much. To get at the level you need to be at to get into either fed, you'd have to have a HUGE amount of passion. Being on the road for 300 days a year would burn out most of us, and people who don't have that passion over time are eventually weeded out, but TNA and WWE both have their share of wrestlers who are into it more than others. It's not a WWE vs TNA thing, but a individual feeling from each wrestler. To say that the WWE superstars have no passion or talent is a blind statement, and anyone who believes this can't have much respect or understanding for what wrestlers actually do.

 

[Mark0820]

To those that think WWE doesn't listen to the fans, how often have we been clamoring for new main event matches? We've had Sheamus and Swagger win the titles and get into ME matches. What did some of us do? Bitched that it wasn't who we wanted. Just because some of us agree it'd be a good thing doesn't mean it would. Vince makes mistakes like everyone but I'd put more faith in him knowing what's best for his company than I would some IWC guy. Wrestling is his livelihood, it isn't ours.

 

[Blade]

neon, you are fucking GOD lol. I've been racking my brain for weeks trying to think of that exact analogy and i just couldn't. TNA has PASSION. Their wrestlers LOVE to wrestle. WWE is about, in VINCE'S OWN WORDS ''Da Monaaay''. John Cena is shoved down our throats for the kids. Panic ensues where there is blood because of KIDS. Why? Because kids all ways get what they want, and if they want Cena shirts, They're gonna fucking sell. TNA mirrors ECW's old motto, love what you do, fuck the money. Look how many LOYAL followers ECW had. They didn't have a lot, but every fucking person was LOYAL. I honestly think Hammerstein would have fucking been torn down if Cena won the match with RVD years ago. The fact that TNA brings in old ECW alumni AND USES THEM shows that. WWE is great for kids, hillbillies, and people who just don't care about quality. People still care about britney spears and paris hilton. But for the diehard wrestling fan who considers it a passion, TNA is what to watch.

All in all, you hit the nail on the head. WWE is the pop music of wrestling. Cena IS N'Sync. Fuck the fans, fuck the passion, just give me that fat fucking check. REAL musicians don't care about their ''crib'' and REAL wrestlers aren't concerned about fast cars and big houses...cept flair but he's senile so he doesn't count. Even people like Kennedy and AJ Styles cares about the fans, they just realise that the bigger pop comes from boos rather than cheers. And that's true also. EVERY ONE hates the bad guy, for the most part. But most people only cheer certain wrestlers. I for one love Kennedy, I just can't help but love some one who talks that much and that loud and who is willing to say ass hole on TV lol. As for this post being long, I decided to send an homage to the FIRST thread I read that long by replying with a post as long lol

Wow.... Just.... Wow. The absolute absurdity eminating from this post is mind blowing. You implied that:

1) TNA isn't about the money
2) Cena has no passion
3) The WWE wrestlers don't care about their fans
4) Flair is senile, which is why he's about the money.

So let's start, shall we? Of course TNA is about the money. They're a damn business. To think otherwise is ridiculous. And the proof that they want more money is obvious. They've moved to Monday night to try compete with WWE and brought in all these big stars to try help them out. If they were all about the wrestling and not the money, why do they feel the need to do that? Why would a company who's all about the wrestling bring in a 50 year old Hogan? No wrestling company is all about the wrestling. They're all businesses, and they all revolve around money whether or not you are willing to admit it.

Next you implied that Cena has no passion. Boy, that was dumb. Every word Cena speaks in his promos and every move he makes in a wrestling match is filled with passion. The guy clearly adores what he's doing, no one is a good enough actor to show that much emotion as he works without meaning it. And yes, he's pushed. But apparently, it's a bad thing that Cena is pushed because you dislike him? The truth is, the guy has more fans than anyone in TNA right now, so he must be doing something right.

And now, possibly the most ignorant statement, you said the WWE wrestlers don't care about their fans. Ummm, yes. Yes they do. They are all performers who got into wrestling for their love of performing. And call me naiive, but I think a love of performing can be altered slightly by an indifference to the audience, right? Of course they care about the fans, or else they wouldn't be wrestling. Sure there have been occasionally wrestlers who just got into the game for the money, some argue that the likes of Goldberg and Lesnar did that. But every WWE wrestler cares about the fans.

And lastly you said Flair is senile which is why he cares about the money. So you're saying Flair has been senile for over 30 years now?

It's so stupid to imply that the WWE wrestlers are only in it for the money. Do you realise how difficult it is to make it in wrestling? A person can't just decide he wants to be rich, then wander into WWE and hand in an application. They have to work their asses off for years before they're even noticed. And even then, not all of them make. So stop bullshitting, I'm begging you. Yes, they make lots of money, and they enjoy it. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you were getting shit loads of money for something you loved doing, you'd rather go somewhere else and do the exact same thing for less money? Exactly.

No one is that stupid, and pretty much every wrestler would take a job in WWE over a job in TNA any day, except for maybe 1) Sting, for his own reasons and 2) AJ Styles out of loyalty. But to call someone a sell out because they'd rather join the WWE instead of TNA? Dude, these guys have FAMILIES. If going to WWE instead of TNA means they make more money and ergo can retire earlier and spend more time with the family. Despite what the wrestling nerds who don't know what they're talking about will tell you, your family is more important than your job will ever be.

And lastly, yes Shanon Moore is an idiot and a hypocrite, as has already been stated. Ever since Hogan has come to TNA, they've been drinking his Kool Aid and have such a mind numbingly overexaggerated optimism that you wonder if they're merely trying to convince themself that TNA won't get crushed.

You compared WWE to pop music? Interesting analogy. The thing is, as successful as pop music is, many other music genres have flourished and become extremely successful. Rap, Alternate Rock, Country, etc. have all been able to become successful because they produce quality music. Yet TNA continues to fail with bad ratings. How's that for a twist on your analogy?

 

[Davi323]

Not only that, but while Shannon Moore is busy blasting the WWE for essentially being wrestler pimps, only concerned with the money, he ignores the fact that he is a wrestling ****e. He voluntarily worked for the WWE, he had no problems cashing in his WWE paychecks, did he? He is being completely hypocritical. For as much as he wants to attack the WWE for using wrestlers, can he really claim that he didn't use the WWE? The WWE gave him a chance, put him on TV as a favor to Matt and Jeff Hardy, and he sucked ass. The only reason TNA was interested is because he was formerly in the WWE...

so basically, Shannon, shut the hell up and be glad the WWE made you a name. A half-assed name for a wrestler with half-ass talent, but they made you enough of a name for you to use that to get into TNA.

 

[HBKevin]

Almost any TNA or indy wrestler who could be in WWE, would be. They're the big leagues, and no one denies it. The whole main feud in TNA revolves around Hulk Hogan's WWE Hall of Fame ring which he gave to Abyss to grant him superpowers. Think about that for a minute. TNA doesn't even try to hide the fact that they're the minor leagues. WWE pays more and has much more exposure for their wrestlers. Except for the older guys who don't want to deal with the year-round travel anymore, any of the younger guys who could make it into the WWE would take that chance at once, most likely. TNA may have better technical wrestling, more racy content, etc., and I've started watching the show since Hogan and Flair got involved and I mostly enjoy it, but guys like Moore who have had a short run in WWE and didn't cut it, are obviously just bitter.

 

[sordidboySavoy]

Ok first off WWE is an innovator and originator. TNA is that pigeon scurrying about trying to get WWEs crumbs. I mean i tried to get into TNA i really did, but except for RVD i find it boring and roll my eyes at it. Also shouldnt tna talk about how their product is good and be given a chance instead of bashing wwe? thats a classic case of insecurity. Also all you dumbass tna lovers who shit on the whole wwe is Pg thing, get a life. Maybe since i aint a total wrestling dork i cuss, see blood, and see and touch boobs and have sex in real life so it donr matter to me that raw doesnt have that. I get it in real life so not seeing a diva scantily clad on raw aint a big deal seeing how i can just have sex with my real life girlfriend. But i do give yall that some of the guest host and midget court skits are pretty fucking dumb but hey its just wrestling its not a big deal. there are millions of people suffering, dying, being murdered, homeless, losing everything they have right now as we freakin chat on a forum, so maybe wwe being pg or whatever dumbass, went from a boy band to prince of punk (thats sooo fucking stupid and poserific) shannon moore had to say aint really such a big deal in the whole scope of things ya dig. Whatever this is Internet Wrestling Dorks so whats really happening in the world aint as important as bitching about John Cena only knowing 5 moves. lol

 

[wushady]

If anyone thinks Hulk Hogan isn't in TNA for the money your on crack. He has said it himself he only came back because he's broke and it's the only thing he knows how to do. He knows the only way to become rich again is to make TNA successful. That's why all he cares about since joining TNA is to compete with WWE. He lost his passion along time ago his only passion now is money.

He has built TNA around him his hand picked top face Abyss is now a clone of him. He's on the show a minimum 5 times an episode. Even RVD's title win was all about him. People bring up the HHH Sheamus thing all the time. Does anyone really think anyone who isn't tight with Hogan will get over in TNA?

 

[FromTheSouth]

OK, I am going to address the main points of this thread without quoting anyone individually.

First of all, the idea that TNA wrestlers are more passionate than WWE wrestlers because they do the same thing for less money is stupid. TNA wrestlers do the same thing for less money than WWE guys because for the most part, they aren't as good as WWE wrestlers.

"But FTS, TNA duz teh flippyz!"

So the fuck what. While the ring style appeals to some, choreographed cruiserweight matches are fucking terrible. Wrestling is fake, we all know this, but it should look real. A bunch of X division guys doing their signature moves for ten minutes takes people completely out of the show. The reason Styles, RVD, and Hardy can use that style and get over is that they use the high flying offense in context, instead of all the time. WWE wrestlers are far more talented at what matters, psychology, storytelling, and interest level. WWE matches tell better stories, move chains make sense, and most importantly, WWE wrestlers make people care about them. TNA wrestlers don't tend to have this skill, with a few exceptions. Also, most of those exceptions are ex-WWE guys. The reason TNA guys make less money is because the show makes less money, which is because TNA's homegrown talent just hasn't created a buzz around themselves.

2. Wrestling is a business. It is often described as an industry. If the purpose is not to make money, then the show should not be on the air. Dumb ass smarks tend to think that be entertaining and trying to make money are mutually exclusive. That's complete horse shit. What makes money is what is the most entertaining to the most people. Cena is entertaining. He gets cheered, he gets booed, but he gets a reaction. It doesn't matter if people tune in to see him win or lose, they tune in to see him, so Vince features him. This talk that Vince doesn't do anything for the fans is idiotic and laughable. Vince doesn't do anything for the internet fans because internet fans are fickle and trying to make themselves cool guys in the dorkiest fan club in the world. Seriously, Star Trek forums probably mock us. We are passionate about niche entertainment. There is a small group of possible consumers for the product, so Vince's job is to appeal to as many of them as he can. If he does so at the expense of the IWC, so the fuck what?

3. Hogan is in it for the money. That's no lie. Why, again, does that mean he is going to ruin the company? This is another bullshit IWC argument. Blaming Hogan is akin to the way Obama blames Bush for everything. It is just a cover up for your own incompetence. At some point you need to realize that wherever Hogan goes, so do the ratings and the money. He has been the biggest star on the planet at two different points in his career. To assume that he won't be again is jumping the shark a bit. I love how four months is enough time to fully evaluate his plan. The IWC is full of petulant, impatient children that hate shotgun title reigns, but hate when they last too long, and they want new main eventers, but not if it's not the guys they want. Everything is boring and played out. That is more stupidity.

4. Shannon Moore is a fucking ******. No one gives a rat fuck what he thinks. He isn't very good at anything besides the gymnastics aspect of wrestling. He has never built a following, no one gives a fuck about him, and his bitching comes off as bitterness about being told he was dead weight on the roster instead of an introspective view of the business. Let's go ask the Red Sox what they think of the Yankees, and then assume that it is an impartial statement. Anyone who takes what Moore said seriously needs to reevaluate themselves, because they are not a very smart person.

 

[Poɘt]

Some people aren't really understanding the main view point. It's not that WWE is about making money and TNA isn't. It's about WWE making that money doing as little as possible to deliver an actual wrestling product. People can talk about TNA having all the bad storylines in the world, but at the end of the day you can still look at it and see it's a wrestling product. If anyone says TNA doesn't deliver in the ring, then all your post should be voided because you don't know what pro wrestling is.

Someone made the point that any indy or TNA talent would be in WWE if they could, and it's probably true, but...the reason you have so many former WWE talent bashing the experience afterward is because they had a dream to be in the WWE and when they got there it was anything but a dream, and more like a nightmare (see Raven).

If you had a dream of becoming a famous musician only to find out that you couldn't write your own songs and that you do almost the opposite of what you dreamed you'd be doing, how would you feel? Would you tell yourself: well I had my shot and I failed? Because it seems a lot of people say that whenever WWE releases a talent that they didn't exactly use to their strengths, which is what a booker does in wrestling. This is how upstart companies like ECW, TNA(NWA), and RoH built up a fanbase, by making the most of what they had. But some act as if since WWE can afford to hire anyone they want, it's ok to throw away and treat their talent like mules just because there's always someone knocking on their door.

Too many are looking at this like its WWE vs TNA. Fact is it's more like WWE vs The Industry. No one is saying WWE talent don't have passion, but they do work for a company that isn't thinking of what they do as art, but a cash cow. Vince McMahon's own words were that WWE isn't a wrestling product. You gonna ignore the boss's words and when WWE doesn't deliver a wrestling show (but more so a sitcom), you convince yourself it is wrestling and then look at actual wrestling shows like foreign events. A lot of you have been made fools of, and most like everything else in this world that is intelligent, it's gonna take a long time before people see WWE for what it is and actually start looking at the other promotions that want to give you a wrestling product. I fear that company like TNA's downfall won't be how it's booked, but that "wrestling fans" have been fooled to the point that they will actually play favorites with a company like WWE, who doesn't want to be a wrestling product, over a company like TNA, who while has the flaws that come with being mainstream, is still more of a wrestling product than WWE will ever be again.

 

[thepalaceprince]

I hear what your saying and I agree with most of it except for one thing the signing your life away thing. Im sorry every musician and every wrestler has free will you talk about them degrading themselves but they dont have to do it an artist doesnt have to become the corporate puppet to get by more so in music then wrestling. Sure most of the guys in both businesses arent big enough to do what they want but some are and the little guys the ones that do change or degrade themselves thats still ulitmately their choice they chose to do it nobody forced them. Another other thing shannon moore needs to shut his damn mouth the only reason hes bad mouthing the wwe is because they didnt want him and for good reason hes not that good. Id rather watch all the terrible guest host segments on raw then any matches hes putting on.

 

[ian_d]

wow in one post everything wrestling related has been discussed. and to no resolution as well. firstly we are all individuals with different ideas and beliefs. we need to stop shouting at people just for liking cena or hating wwe, i mean all we have is our opinions. whether it be wwe=mtv, or tna=hogans hobby. nothing is perfect, wwe and tna will always have faults. stop looking over them so analytically. its like mickie james being called fat. she is a prime size for a woman, but people still find faults.

 

[TCBT]

Well to respond to that guy who quoted me whose name I didn't care to remember...

4 letters. TCBT. Easy to remember. No one else has had a problem quoting me and responding to an argument I've brought up in a way I've considered civilized without putting anyone down.

Indeed, TNA didn't fire Russo. Some love him, some hate him. But they do listen to a lot of people. The Nasty Boys aren't there anymore, are they? Sure, their departure wasn't solely based on the fact that nobody cared to CARE about them, but it sure as hell played a major part in it.

People don't like The Band - when's the last time you saw them do something of any significance on TV and take up lots of time.

How about all the feedback they request from people, all the internet web shows to promote their product. They obviously give a shit about the IWC to some extent, more than they would admit. When did WWE do that?

Bischoff's OFFICIAL Facebook page offers an insight to what he thinks about the IWC. He's admitted to NOT listen to us or get any sort of feedback from the forums on sites like this one.

The Band is on TV every week. Where is Chris Daniels? You're right, The Nasty Boys aren't there anymore. But why were they there in the first place?

What is TNA trying to do that WWE never did? Well, how about the whole ReAction thing. The "real" backstage scoop. I personally enjoy it. I know it's a worked shoot type of thing but hey they put some thought into it and it looks realistic.

- TNA basically being the only wrestling promotion out there to utilize Facebook, Twitter and YouTube in the best possible way to show people what they're all about.

- Or maybe the fact that they push people because of their talent, not who they work out with or how far they're up someone's ass.

- Perhaps their storylines which seem too complicated to the simple minded WWE fan, TOO used to "You attacked me, I tell you how much I like you and then we face off".

- Maybe it's their new "ranking system". From what I hear even FANS would be able to vote on who should be a number one contender and all that crap. Oh my, that's so ignorant, right?

So I don't know, YOU tell ME, what is TNA doing different? Aside from being a WRESTLING company filled with WRESTLERS, I don't see a DAMN similarity between them. Oh yes, and a four sided ring with red ropes.

Now go ahead and tell me how much TNA looks like WCW.

TNA doesn't look like WCW, don't worry. WCW was getting 4.5 ratings on a weekly basis. TNA does .8.

I don't know the ranking system, but it sounds interesting. I'm looking forward to it.

TNA storylines seem too simple to me actually. I'm not a fan of their inconsistant writing. It's getting better though. Props to them.

Hogan comes in and now The Nasty Boys get a job, Orlando Jordan gets a job, Syxx-Pac and Hall get a job, and Val Venis beats Daniels. Are you sure TNA isn't about being up people's asses rather than talent??? Backstage scoop? That makes it different?? WWE has done that and it wasn't very successful. Several times. WWE Limewire, WWE Superstars (90's), WWE.com. It's all been done before. As a WRESTLING company, I see very little that's INNOVATIVE in TNA that wasn't done 10 years ago.

Oh wait, its ring has red ropes. That's pretty cool.

 

[JGlass]

Really? When's the last time they did something that the fans requested.

Oh oh I know this one! HBK vs. The Undertaker round 2. Oh, turning Orton face. I know another one! Pushing The Miz to the moon.

The funniest thing about this LAUGHABLE statement is the simple fact that if they stopped doing what the fans wanted, nobody would watch. There were plenty of great matches and great feuds last year, and the WWE delivered. Was it perfect? No, but it was pretty damn good.

Vince is a smart, smart man and he makes people such as you ( no offense intended ) believe that what he's doing is the best business move he could ever make. He's floating on his hype, excuse me, on his company's hype.

Oh my, someone on the internet thinks he can run a multi-million dollar company better than it's current boss, what a new and interesting development. Now I'm no math whiz or economic genius, but last time I checked the WWE's profits were still in the black.

People figure that since it's McMahon he does it in the best way, he does the biggest impact, and even when his decisions are straight out stupid you have to doubt YOURSELF because it's Vince McMahon and he turned WWE into what it is/was

This is like saying people only buy apple products because Steve Jobs sold them to you. No, people buy apple products because they kick ass. Seriously, could you imagine how much life would suck without an iPod?

If Vince McMahon was giving us total shit, I'd stop watching. However, I still like the WWE, so I still watch it, not because Vince McMahon made it, but because I like it.

That way such promotions as TNA who actually try to be a tad bit different, who try to dish out a better product and constantly listen to their fans expecting feedback and constructive criticism ( not smark talk ), is actually considered a low-life promotion filled with ex-WWE Rejects.

Let's talk different. They changed the ring back to the four sided ring despite resounding boos from the fans, brought in a ton of old WWE rejects and drop outs, and Team 3D still participates on the reg. Where's the part where they are different again?

Oh, and I've never heard them called a low-life promotion. I've heard them called a second rate promotion, but that's because they are. They don't have nearly as many weekly viewers as WWE, and until then, they'll always be in (at least) second place.

TNA, ROH and just about any other wrestling company on this planet will always be compared to WWE's glitz and glam and be neglected and disregarded by the brainwashed WWE fans. Or at least a majority.

Lol@brainwashed WWE fans. I sincerely hope you don't watch WWE anymore, or you are just might be the biggest hypocrite in the world.

And yeah, TNA and ROH should be compared to WWE, because I guarantee you they aspire to be like WWE, putting on shows all over the globe, making millions of dollars every years, and on the top of the industry. Their job is to make money first, entertain the fans second, despite what you think. This is how every company works.

Because this is what Vince has accomplished. He brainwashed a big chunk of the current wrestling fanbase into believing his product is the best out there simply because of that "W" logo with the upside down "Nike" streak. That's why WWE is getting a 3.0 on a horrible show and TNA got 1.0 when their show was obviously much better, and has been for quite some time now.

No, the WWE gets a higher rating because
A) Better story telling
B) More fan loyalty
C) Generally better wrestlers
D) Recognizable names like John Cena and The Undertaker

These also happen to be the reasons for why WWE is better than TNA.

One of the many reasons why WWE lost a fan ( me ) was the boldness and arrogance of the people who run it, and the sheepish behavior of its employees. Not to mention the dumbed down quality of what WWE used to be.

Dumbed down quality? Dude, when was wrestling ever intellectual? Go watch fucking PBS if you want some sophisticated programming, TNA certainly isn't going to provide you with any of that.

And dumbed down? This coming from a mark for a company who's main storyline revolves around the concept that someone can take control of an entire corporation by winning a wrestling match.

Vince has lost his touch and maybe his mind. I hope people realize it, and do it quickly. This is not a TNA propaganda even though I am a TNA fan. Instead this is a little hope of mine, to save wrestling. Cuz hey, I watch WWE from time to time and I don't see wrestling, I see segments.

Ha, you watch the WWE, that makes you as "brainwashed" as the rest of us. I'm sure you have an excuse, but save it. The fact that you tune in means that you expect more out of WWE than what you see, and you hope that big mean Vince McMahon will improve it for you so you can watch it again.

Vince preaches that his company is geared towards entertainment but he doesn't understand that we, the WRESTLING fans, we get entertainment THROUGH a wrestling match and a match-relevant segment.

Man, I still like it. I like watching HHH talk some trash, I like seeing John Cena pull out a victory, I like being talked down upon by CM Punk, and I like when Rey Mysterio chases his punk ass out of the ring. Heck, I even kind of like when Santino butchers the English language.

Saying that you watch Wrestling because of the entertainment value of segments, glitz, glam, decors, pyro and cookie-cutter production is like saying that you watch porn for the acting.

I watched RAW on Monday night, and they wrestled despite the fact most of the roster was stuck in Europe. Last time I checked, they do that EVERY SHOW. And I don't think anyone here has ever claimed they watched wrestling for any of that shit you just mentioned, it just adds to the fun of watching the show.

As for Shannon Moore, everyone who said he was a hypocrite was dead on. He's taken it upon himself to try to convince people to join his team, this is no different than politics. He's looking for disenfranchised voters and saying, join my party, we'll cut your taxes and improve your life! Who knows, maybe some WWE wrestlers are dumb enough to take that chance, but I wouldn't count on too many leaving for TNA anytime soon.

 

[VintageWWE]

Well put JGlass. I have a real problem with people saying the WWE doesn't listen to the fans and TNA does. Are they kidding me, WWE makes millions of dollars every year and they don't do it because the fans aren't satisfied. People have to realize the fanbase Of WWE is more than just the IWC. Just because part of the IWC isn't satidlsfied doesn't mean the other part of the WWE's fan base is not satisfied. Give me a break, they do please the fans just not all of them because that's simply impossible. I'm sure TNA is satisfying a lot of fans that's why they have such good ratings and are making so much money.
Now onto the passion. People are being blinded by TNA to think TNA talent have more passion. Come on how many of those talent are in TNA just for the money. I think most of us could come up with a handful. The fact of the matter is any one of them would jump ship to the WWE if they were given the money and don't have to do WWE's travel schedule. The schedule of TNA is the one true thing that attracts wrestlers. You get paid a lot and you don't need to travel. The simple fact that every WWE wrestler has to travel more than 300 days a year and only get a break during Christmas proves they have more passion. The biigest talent and the smallest talent in the WWE have to be away from the family just to give the fans something to see. If that's not passion I don't know what is.

 

[BlakkVI]

What has always irritated me about anyone choosing to complain about the PG era...is that they tend to forget that they were once kids falling in love with the WWE product. When they say and watched it with their (in my case, Grandfather, Father) and friends, etc...

You know, back when they were the ones running around in Hogan merchandise. Or wishing they had Bret's sunglasses. Yet, they bitch about Cena's and Rey Mysterio's many pandering to the kids in the audience? All because they were spoiled by an era, which in retrospect besides the stars it produced in Stone Cold and The Rock was NOT THAT GREAT!.

WWE has always been about the kids, one era changed that, and they brought it back full circle...its just something you have to deal with..you either like it or you don't, but you can't continue to moan because Vince and Co...doesn't cater a company just for you when it has its entire audience to think about. TNA does that, and I swear sometimes it makes me cringe...example being -- the many kids in the audience that were subjected to RVD's 4/20 jokes @ the last taping.

As a father myself I love the fact that I can share wrestling with my own kid and even my lil' cousin when we go there. Same way my pops did when I was that age.

 

[Honkey_Kong]

What has always irritated me about anyone choosing to complain about the PG era...is that they tend to forget that they were once kids falling in love with the WWE product. When they say and watched it with their (in my case, Grandfather, Father) and friends, etc...

You know, back when they were the ones running around in Hogan merchandise. Or wishing they had Bret's sunglasses. Yet, they bitch about Cena's and Rey Mysterio's many pandering to the kids in the audience? All because they were spoiled by an era, which in retrospect besides the stars it produced in Stone Cold and The Rock was NOT THAT GREAT!.

WWE has always been about the kids, one era changed that, and they brought it back full circle...its just something you have to deal with..you either like it or you don't, but you can't continue to moan because Vince and Co...doesn't cater a company just for you when it has its entire audience to think about. TNA does that, and I swear sometimes it makes me cringe...example being -- the many kids in the audience that were subjected to RVD's 4/20 jokes @ the last taping.

As a father myself I love the fact that I can share wrestling with my own kid and even my lil' cousin when we go there. Same way my pops did when I was that age.

Eh, I don't know if this PG era is really about attracting children to WWE programming. I guess we'll know the answer once Linda loses her bid for senate.

As far as the era goes. It's not the fact that it's PG that is why their product is bad, it's poor writing by failed soap-opera writers and crappy wrestling (in ring performing) by shitty wrestlers. And the guys who are good in there get buried. As far as their product goes and we have to admit this, no matter how crappy their show could get, most of the IWC will still watch raw week in and week out. As will most of their current fans.

The reason they're not pulling 6's in though is because those people they need to get to 6's are not diehard fans who will watch no matter what. They will not watch if the WWE is making a garbage product.

It would be easy to make the WWE's product PG and good. make it more sports and less entertainment. Don't call them "superstars" or "in ring performers" call them wrestlers and what they do is wrestle. it sounds like it's just euphemisms, but it's their whole approach in it that is failing. People watch wrestling for wrestling. The angles are supposed to be there to make the wrestling more interesting. The wwe has it backwards.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Of course WWE is about making money!! Every business is about making money from Total Nonstop Action to a freakin lemonade stand. The product is what you use as bait.

"It sucks to hear that people lost jobs today. From what I hear that place is a black hole anyway. Alot of peeps are miserable going to work. They dont understand what talent is. They would rather hire a jackass that don't know nothing about the biz rather than someone that loves it and pay pennies on the dollar to get someone to sign their life away. I think that the talent should think about making the jump. I thank god everyday for my chance to be family with TNA. From the office to talent in TNA it's nothing but fun. All I can say is @tnadixie thank you for bringing me into the family. I love going to work. Hogan F'N rocks. I wear TNA colors with pride and will bust my ass to better the company.TNA TNA TNA TNA."

Shannon Moore, you would sell out in a heartbeat. Oh wait, you did before...in 2006 as many have caught on.

From what I hear that place is a black hole anyway.

Wow...amnesia much? This is what is really wrong with the whole statement- the fact Moore acts like he knows what the fuck he is talking about.

WWE isn't the MTV of wrestling given that WWE is still about wrestling. I guarantee you if you were to pop over to MTV or MTV2 for that matter you are going to come across a reality show and not a music video. At least with WWE they always give you matches and most-of-the-time worthwhile experiences.

As far as WWE bashing goes with "what the fans want" well you can't please everyone. They have managed to make WWE marketable TO ALL AUDIENCES. Lots of people don't realize how difficult that really is, to appeal to both children and adults. Yes I agree that storyline isn't always great and is usually lacking, but the fact remains that the PG Era has significant influence in the world of wrestling as it is.

TNA isn't PG. Hell it was almost an add-on to the Attitude Era and many would say it still is. WWE has moved on to something different, as any wrestling fan should respect. Products go stale after all. I grew up on The Attitude Era, but seriously I would've gotten tired of it if it kept going with its excessive chair/table uses and illreputable use of women.