The Art Of Submission

[Hazardous]

In the long history of the WWE/WCW, Submission maneuvers have been the trademark finisher of a number of Superstars. Whether it be Lex Lugar's "Torture Rack" or Bret Hart's "Sharpshooter" it was their finisher. But one of the things I have noticed in the past few years, is the real lack of Submission finishers. Granted, you have John Cena's use of the "STF" and The Heart Dynasty's use of Bret's Sharpshooter, but these are not their Signature finisher, and for some, are usually done very poorly.
Those days seem to be gone, To be replaced by the more flashy higher impact ones.

So I thought I would take this time to take a look back at a few of the Superstars who used a Submission move as their finisher.. afterwords, I would like to get people's opinions on the subject.

Dean Malinko - Texas Cloverleaf

Considered by some to be the greatest of his kind, Malinko used this move with such finesse, and was so technical that he made it look really devastating. These day's Dean is one of the trainers in the WWE, so maybe he will see someone who has what it takes to be the next "man of 1000 holds" and train him in his style.

Chris Benoit - Crippler Crossface

Unfortunately, due to the "Benoit Tragedy" you will never see this move on any of the WWE.com lists, or DVD's. Which is a shame really, as it really is one of the best Submission maneuvers ever used. it didnt matter if Chris was using it on a Cruiserweight, such as Rey Mysterio, or a Heavyweight like HHH, it was believable. HBK was known to use it here and there as well, but it never quite had the realism to it that Benoit's did.

Ric Flair - Figure 4 Leg Lock

Considered by many to be the greatest Submission in professional wrestling history, the Figure 4 is a time honored Classic. Yes im aware the Flair was not the inventer of the move, but he is the one who brought it to the "Mainstream" Wrestling fan. This move alone has resulted in more wins then any other move you see today.


These are just 3 examples of many, many wrestlers who's finisher was not a big flashy move such as the "Attitude Ajustment" or the "RKO". Even Chris Jericho's "Walls of Jericho" have been moved down from a move used to win championships, to a move reversed on a nightly basuis.

So now my question is:
Do you think Modern day wrestling has killed the art of Submission Wrestling?
If not, then why?
If so, do you ever see a return?

 

[YEDemon]

I don't think the WWE has killed the art of submission wrestling. I think if they had you would not see Jack Swagger's recent push with the ankle lock or Jericho using the Walls of Jericho as often as he does. I think the WWE has definitely lessened the emphasis that submission moves have in the current landscape of wrestling, but they do still have their place.

The problem, I think, is that the WWE's target audience, children, do not have the attention span to enjoy submission moves like the figure four. While I enjoy submissions, I've never really enjoyed the figure four, myself. For some reason, I just don't understand the appeal of. I can understand kids feeling the same way, especially when the submission is being resisted for longer than normal.

I think that eventually, when the demographic for the WWE changes, as is inevitable, we may see the rise of submission wrestling again, depending on what the demo changes to. Right now, I don't believe kids want to see submission moves. I think they want to see the Air Bourne, Attitude Adjustment, and the RKO. Eventually, I believe that will change, and maybe by then, enough time will have passed that we get to see the Crossface again.

 

[fenfool]

Submissions are still around (Taker's Triangle Choke, Cena's STF...go over to TNA for Samoa Joe's Rear Naked Choke & Kurt Angle's Ankle Lock). I do agree that they have been played down a lot. I can't remember the last guy to use a form of the sleeper hold consistently. Maybe the three count pin makes it easier for last second kickouts, interference, slow ref counts, what have you. I don't see them going away completely, because there is drama to someone tapping out, a different kind than getting pinned. I would go out on a limb and say the popularity of MMA, with it's submission moves & tapouts will probably help keep them alive in pro wrestling...kind of a "see, these holds ARE painful" thing...but I have to agree with YED, either the fan's attention span is too short to sit through many of them, or the writers think they are. Either way, submission moves are going to stick around, but be used sparingly for the foreseeable future, in my opinion.

 

[YEDemon]

Granted, I haven't been watching Smackdown nearly as often as I used to, but I read the report on it. Wasn't Dolph Ziggler using the sleeper hold earlier this spring or summer and attempting to get it over as a legitimate move? I believe he even took out Khali with it in one match.

The WWE does take time to build up submissions every once in a while. The Hells Gate of the Undertakers from his feud with Edge is a good example, I think. I believe that earlier this year, in the match on Raw between Bryan Danielson and Batista that Danielson most of the offense by Danielson were submission moves and that Batista was selling them as being painful. I think this shows that the WWE has not completely abandoned them and hopefully if they do bring Danielson back (I know, I know, this is a tired subject), they will incorporate more submissions into his moveset.

 

[Hazardous]

Submissions are still around (Taker's Triangle Choke, Cena's STF...go over to TNA for Samoa Joe's Rear Naked Choke & Kurt Angle's Ankle Lock). I do agree that they have been played down a lot. I can't remember the last guy to use a form of the sleeper hold consistently.

As i stated in the OP, I am aware that some still use one here and there, such as Cena's version of the STF, and Undertaker's Hell's Gate. but what I meant, was someone who uses them as THEIR signature finisher, the way Benoit did with the Crossface. Angle did use the Ankle lock, much like Swagger does now, but Angle also had the Angle Slam, and Swagger has his.. umm.. Pump handle slam I think? don't recall the name he gave it.
It may indeed have something to do with the kids, but speaking for myself personally, as a kid I loved seeing someone locked in the Sharpshooter, or Figure 4. more so then I liked watching the Hogan leg drop, because it looked more brutal, and like they were punishing the bad guy, which is really what the kids like is it not? watching the good guy punish the bad guy.

 

[wwe1997]

Submissions are still around (Taker's Triangle Choke, Cena's STF...go over to TNA for Samoa Joe's Rear Naked Choke & Kurt Angle's Ankle Lock). I do agree that they have been played down a lot. I can't remember the last guy to use a form of the sleeper hold consistently. Maybe the three count pin makes it easier for last second kickouts, interference, slow ref counts, what have you. I don't see them going away completely, because there is drama to someone tapping out, a different kind than getting pinned. I would go out on a limb and say the popularity of MMA, with it's submission moves & tapouts will probably help keep them alive in pro wrestling...kind of a "see, these holds ARE painful" thing...but I have to agree with YED, either the fan's attention span is too short to sit through many of them, or the writers think they are. Either way, submission moves are going to stick around, but be used sparingly for the foreseeable future, in my opinion.

Dolph Ziggler uses the sleeper hold! and i think submissions are making a comeback: Cena(stf), jericho(walls of jericho), hart dynasty(sharpshoter), Jack Swagger(ankle lock), Dopha ziggler (sleeper hold), and at house shows alberto del rio has been using some sort of armbar. Kaval likes to use the dragon sleeper and if danielson comes back he likes using submissions. so i think submission wrestling is starting to make a comeback!!!

 

[YEDemon]

I believe if enough of the crowd expresses the same viewpoint as you have and gets louder when the submissions are locked in, then I think the writers (or whoever decides which moves become more prominent) will begin to use them more often. Thus far, I don't believe the audience has expressed enough of an appetite for them to make them change the way things stand currently.

However, your most recent post, jabroni, has brought a question to my mind. You said that as a kid, you enjoyed seeing the heel locked in the sharpshooter or other submissions as punishment. See, to me, I would think the psychology of the ring would be more of a reversal. Now, my logic might be dumb, since wrestling is inherently a violent sport, but hear me out. I would think that heel would use the submission moves more as a way of inflicting pain on the good guys, whereas the faces would use the flashy impact moves as a way to subdue the heel relatively quickly.

To quote the Joker in the Dark Knight, "You know why I use a knife? Guns are too quick. You don't get to see the pain they feel." I may not have the quote exactly right, but I think it's the same idea. Submissions are more drawn out, damage over time type moves, whereas, say the RKO or the Attitude Adjustment are quick, one-hit-and-your-done types.

Again, my logic may be dumb, but it just a thought that occurred to me when I was reading your reply. I really like this thread, jabroni. Nice idea.

 

[xTSDLx]

I think submissions died down for a couple of reasons. One, it may have to do with the Benoit incident and two, it has to do with the target audience. These days, kids do not have the patience or attention span to sit through a match that consists of a wrestler working on the back, legs, neck, ect of their opponent in order to apply their finishing hold.

Yes, many wrestlers are starting to use submissions more in the last year or so...but they don't use it as their finisher and don't win the majority of their matches with it anymore. Most wrestlers either reverse the hold or get to the ropes almost every single time they are in a submission.

I know when I was a kid, I LOVED watching Bret Hart win a match with his Sharpshooter, Sting with the Scorpion Death Lock, Ric Flair and the figure four, Chris Jericho with the Lion Tamer/Walls of Jericho, Saturn with the Rings of Saturn, Dean Malenko with the Texas Cloverleaf, Chris Benoit with the Crippler Crossface, ect. The anticipation of someone tapping out or by some miracle getting a rope break made for some great wrestling. Let's just hope that one day, submission holds as wrestlers main finisher will make a comeback.

 

[Y2J-LionTamer-Y2J]

I understand what you are trying to say here.Great topic BTW.

Examples of Wrestlers these days with Sub finishers that are secondary finishers.

1. Dolph Ziggles.
I love Dolph and a few people have mentioned him as I read through this post.
With that said I love how he is bringing back the Sleeper Hold,but like this topic says it is not his signature move only his secondary signature move.
His signature move is the *flashy* as you said Zig Zag.

2.Cena.
This is obvious,the STF. Again it's not his signature move. The more flashy AA is.

3.Chris Jericho.
Even the once feared Walls have been secondary to the flashy Codebreaker...

The Undertaker I won't get into since he has like 50 finishers lol ;p

What I think the problem is,is that if the years have shown us anything it's usually that an actual finisher by tap out is usually in the arsenal of a face.
I don't know if these days it's because the people mark out more(by people I mean children)for a heel tapping out or what.

One of my personal favs was when HBK tapped to a heel Kurt at WM. It was one of the many spots in that great match that made it memorable and one of the reasons I grabbed the DVD.

So if this is the reason I would implore the WWE to realize the mark out power of a heel with a deadly submission finisher.

More evidence to my theory is that even though secondary to the AA Cena and his STF because he is a face (maybe the only face with a submission finsiher in his arsenal in the E right now) gets results as if they save it for a big mark out at a PPV event.

I think as you said the flashy moves do more keep the kiddies from reaching bordom but my solution is this.If more top talent faces grab a submission finisher instead of the heels such as Cena has done,we will definitly in this era see more submission victories.

 

[Da Prophet]

Todays style of wrestling is high risk and big moves that will appeal to the kids.Submission has faded out of wrestling these days because kids don't want to see long draw out holds.They want fast paced wrestling with back flips and all that.But there is still some wrestlers that use Submission being Joe and Kurt, but they also have another high impact move so they don't always have to use it.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

I'm assuming that you are referring to submission moves like wrestler's finishers, not the actual wrestling type. That's two different kettle of fish and the latter is something for another thread.

Submissions haven't really died out in modern wrestling such as the WWE's style they put forth. You have a plethora of people who use a submission as apart of their arsenal. Guys like Dolph Ziggler, The Hart Dynasty and John Cena all have something up their sleeve in that department. But, not everyone likes to use a submission as it may not be their "specialty" or it doesn't fit their character. It's a delicate decision whether or not to introduce a submission into a person's moveset. Take Hart Dynasty for example: it is a known fact that the Sharpshooter is a Canadian move, mainly popularised by Bret Hart (well, to our generation of fans). That's why they use it. This is an example of implementing due to character.

Now, when we get to "specialty" however, we might not be as lucky to find a person to use multiple submissions. The only person I can think of who is considered submission specialist in the E is Triple H. He uses the figured four, indian deathlock and the crossface. To that aspect, yes they are dying out. There isn't really a need for someone to have more than one or two major submissions holds in their arsenal as it can really put a strain on the booking of the match, as well as bore the modern crowds. It's best to limit your use of submissions, like Chris Jericho and the Walls. If he goes for a submission, you know which one he's going for (easy for the crowd/opponent to remember) and the crowd will react positively.


The point: modern wrestling does use submissions quite frequently and will use them when needed. There are wrestlers who use submissions as a finisher (Cena - STF), some who use as a signature (HHH - figure four) and some who use it out of desperation (Punk - Anaconda Vise)... a select few don't utilise submissions or just use plain rest holds (Orton - chin lock). However, for someone to use multiple submissions... it offers diversity, but not all of them are needed. There are ways to book around submissions and ultimately avoid them if the match needs be... but whatever happens, submissions will never die. New, exciting finishers will come along.

 

[future admin]

Yeah, as Proph said, modern day wrestling is more about major spots that appeal to kiddies, they don't give a fuck about someone being held in The Walls of Jericho, struggling for a minute, they like the Shooting Star presses, and the 450 splashes. But there is still submission in the WWE, The Sleeper hold-Dolph Ziggler, The Ankle Lock-Swagger, The STF-Cena, The Walls of Jericho-Jericho. There is plenty of submission, but it is not always needed.

 

[Da Prophet]

Yeah, as Proph said, modern day wrestling is more about major spots that appeal to kiddies, they don't give a fuck about someone being held in The Walls of Jericho, struggling for a minute, they like the Shooting Star presses, and the 450 splashes. But there is still submission in the WWE, The Sleeper hold-Dolph Ziggler, The Ankle Lock-Swagger, The STF-Cena, The Walls of Jericho-Jericho. There is plenty of submission, but it is not always needed.

But then again, you have these guys lock in the moves but when do you see them get the win with it.John Cena and Kurt Angle yes but most of the time they break away from the Wall of Jericho and he wins with a codebreaker.Even after they escape you see Evan Bourne go to the top rope and go for the shooting star press and Jericho hits a code break in mid air.These moves are still used by hardly get the win anymore.John Cena is different in the fact he used it when submission still had a decent part in the WWE and so did Kurt.But in a match when Cena locks in the STF-U he gets the win in less then 10 seconds or he wins minutes later with an F-U.Is it worth it if they don't get the win at all from these moves or should they just use high impact moves.

 

[LionTamer]

Good topic.

I don't think that that submissions are a dying art in the modern era, but I do think they are grossly misused. The Walls of Jericho are always reversed, can't remember the last time Jericho has won by submission. Another example that I always hated was the Rock's use of the sharpshooter. I think he only won with it once and that was at Survivor Series 98 when Mankind didn't even tap to it! After that, he basically used it during matches to wear down the opponent, or that's at least what it ended up doing because they would always reverse it or get to the ropes. Now it's good to see the Hart Dynasty is actually using the sharpshooter and making it a believable finisher again.

I think the Benoit tragedy may have made the WWE think twice about what kinds of submissions to use, but not use them less or not at all. Even when Danielson was in NXT his catchphrase was "tap or snap". They were building him to be a submission-based wrestler. WWE also had a PPV dedicated solely to the championships being won by submission with Breaking Point.