The 1994-6 slump featuring HBK and Bret Hart

[JerryvonKramer]

Got what? The figures speak for themselves. The slump coincides exactly with Hogan leaving and Bret/ Michaels becoming champs.

Unless you're a big mark for Bret or HBK, I can't see any argument against that.

People don't say they drew a lot. I believe the argument is, before that time, and after it, there has never been competition as good as what HBK/Hart were up against. Cena, at the moment, his toughest competition is TNA. Do you see a difference between that and WCW? Now, this half is off-topic, so if you want to continue the argument, I suggest replying to this part in a thread made for the matter.

You got it.

First of all let's be honest about something: WCW only really became a threat to WWF in about 1996 when the Monday Night Wars started. So you can't really blame the poor attendance figures and ratings on WCW between 1994 and 1996. I'm not entirely sure about the situation in the US, but here in the UK it was certainly the case that after Hogan (and a whole load of other talent) left the WWF in mid-1993 most wrestling fans didn't turn over to WCW, they simply turned off. I'm talking about people who actually WENT to Summerslam 1992. For us at the time, going to WCW might as well have meant semi-retirement -- it just wasn't in the map as far as we were concerned (this is untrue for ME even back then, I mean "we" as in average marks who liked Hogan and Warrior).

Alright, to a certain extent you can say that Bret and HBK were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. There were a combination of factors:

1. to some extent the big wrestling explosion of the 80s had naturally come to the end of its run and the novelty had worn off for most casual fans -- and for a lot of the kids who marked out in the late 80s and early 90s wrestling just wasn't cool anymore. In short, it had gone out of fashion.

2. people had already seen Hogan vs. Andre, Hogan vs. DiBiase, Hogan vs. Savage, Hogan vs. Warrior, Hogan vs. Slaughter, Hogan vs. Undertaker, Hogan vs. Sid, and Hogan vs. Yokozuna so his run at the top with that gimmick had naturally exhausted itself but there was no star of that magnitude to replace him -- Vince's effort to artificially make Bret and HBK stars was too much too soon (i.e. not their fault)

3. The steroid scandal of 1994 hit the WWF's public image harder than most people care to remember.

4. Vince was taking the company in a horrible horrible cartoony gimmicky direction the likes of which we had not seen before -- Doink, for example, would have been unimaginable in, say, 1988. I see that period as the WWF's first real "dark age".

HOWEVER, none of those things can mask the fact that HBK was loudly booed at Survivor Series 1996 despite being very very firmly booked as a face. Point being: if the WWF had fallen on hard times, HBK was NOT the man to help them out of it. I don't think he was helping them to draw and he was having trouble getting over as a legit main event champ. Bret Hart is a similar case in that, while his in-ring work was good, the crowds didn't take to him like they took to Hogan because of his lack of charisma. That's why they had to turn him heel in 1997 because people would cheer Austin over him, even if SCSA was booked as a heel.

I'm not saying Bret or HBK weren't decent workers but you just can't compare them as main eventers to Hogan. In fact, I'd say that anyone who thinks you can is just plain blinkered. I realise they have a lot of fanboys, but you have to admit that when they were given the torch to carry they both failed dismally.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

Obviously neither of them are in the class of Hogan but I do agree with the fact they had stiff competition in 96 and didn't have a ton to work with. When Shawn took over as champ that coincided with the losses of Ramon, Diesel, and even Bret Hart(He took a hiatus till November of that year). You factor that in with WCW coming up with that brilliant NWO storyline it's easy to see why the WWE was in the state it was in. So I think HBK should take some of the blame for the ratings being low it wasn't all his fault, he was definitely in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As far as Bret goes I think he had it worse than Shawn did when he originally took over as the main guy. The competition from WCW wasn't as good but the situation he was in was terrible. He took over right after the steroid scandal where the WWF was getting absolutley horrible press, so many people tuned off them because of that. Then he had to follow in the footsteps of Hulk Hogan. Those are big shoes to follow. Many fans at that time started watching wrestling because of Hogan so if Hogan goes to WCW there is a good chance they're gonna go there with him.

And with Bret alot of the guys he had with him nobody knew about at that time which made it even tougher. Sure there were some there but not very many. He didn' have Hogan, Flair, Sting, Savage(he commentated at first but that was it), Warrior, Piper and to a lesser extent Sid Justice and Vader. Those guys were probably the biggest names in wrestling around that time and he didn't have any of them. Instead he had guys like Tatanka, Doink, Razor, Yokozuna, Diesel, Adam Bomb and 123 Kid among a bunch of other stupid gimmicks WWE had at that time. Razor and Diesel ended up being big names but they weren't at the time Bret was taking over. Even HBK wasn't really that big of name yet during Bret's initial run. The biggest name he probably had with him was Lex Luger or The Undertaker.

So to some it up neither of them were Hogan or Austin but you have to admit both of them weren't in ideal situations either.

 

[Jordan adams]

I don't think can just blame it bret heart kevin nash held the tittle for most of the year in 1995 and shawn micheals in till 1996. 1996 i think would have been a better year for wwf is if there was no NWO Shawn i think to pull it out of the slumb now steve austin is the biggest reason wwe was able to beat wcw in the rattings.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

First of all let's be honest about something: WCW only really became a threat to WWF in about 1996 when the Monday Night Wars started.

What really turned WCW around was Bischoff coming in and turning the company around 180 degrees. Before he got there they were in thre red every year and losing so much money they would have gone out of business in a year.

if the WWF had fallen on hard times, HBK was NOT the man to help them out of it. I don't think he was helping them to draw and he was having trouble getting over as a legit main event champ.

You're entitled to your opinion but I think you're wrong. With all his top stars jumping ship to WCW HBK was a logical choice put in the Main event. As for him not being a legit Champ You're wrong again. His iron man match with Bret Hart was one of the best matches i have ever seen and proved to me That Michaels did have what it takes to be in the Main Event and he has yet to prove me wrong.

I'm not saying Bret or HBK weren't decent workers but you just can't compare them as main eventers to Hogan. In fact, I'd say that anyone who thinks you can is just plain blinkered. I realise they have a lot of fanboys, but you have to admit that when they were given the torch to carry they both failed dismally.

No you can't compare them to Hogan as Main Eventers. Why, because they are 3 competely different types of Main Eventers, Hogan was the Golden Child of Pro wreslting with the Charisma and look that brought the WWE into the Main stream. Hart was one of the best Technicslly sound Champions I have ever seen. So what if he wasn't as Charasmaitc as Hogan, that wasn't who he was so Vince didn't go that route with Bret. As for Michaels when he first broke into the M.E. he was a safe bet in not going to WCW. Not only that he is a great mix of fast-paced and Technical Wrestling (Look at his match with Angle at WrestleMania 21). Also he is one of the most Charismaitc Superstars in the WWE Today.So to say they failed to carry the torch they were given is wrong in just about every way possible. They did a great job and are 2 huge factors in WWE being where it is today.

 

[tsull2121]

Here's the thing... bret hart could wrestle CIRCLES around hogan AND michaels... hogan had more DRAWING power cause vince put all his bets on hogans back and he HAD to push him to the sky and MAKE SURE he got over.

bret never ONCE refused to do a job to anyone.. excluding the montreal screw job.. because thats how he was. in montreal, bret was scheduled to WIN against michaels then forfeit the title the next night and go to wcw.. but vince didnt want any of that.. vince, hebner AND MICHAELS all knew what was going to happen.. and ALL THREE LIED TO BRET'S FACE ABOUT IT! even when he got to wcw bret didnt refuse to put anyone oever,a nd more often than not wrestled when it WASNT in his best interests either storyline wise OR health wise! the man wrestled stupid angles with a full blown concussion just to make sure he did what was asked of him.

hogan would NEVER have done that in his entire career.. and neither would michaels.. as evidenced by the screw job in montreal.

in fact... to say that neither michaels or bret had the same "power run as a main eventer" as hogan did is ludicrous because hogan... for his FIRST title reign.. held the blet longer than anyone since bruno sammartino and NOBODY has held it as long at one time ever since.

hogan got full of himself and thought he was made of teflon so he didnt have to do what he was SUPPOSED to do.. he did what he WANTED to.

michaels got on vinces good side and conspired with him to be the top man in the federation.. but when you look back.. bret has beaten him more often than michaels had beaten bret.

bret introduced the concept of a ladder match to the wwf but michaels took it as his own idea and pitched it to vince for wrestlemania 10 against razor.

michaels has a long history of looking out for himself, or surrounding himself with people who have "pull" in the fderation... it was HIS idea to form "the clique" of himself, diesel, triple h, razor ramon and 1-2-3 kid because he KNEW that if he got some of the bigger guys behind him, there was no WAY vince wouldnt give him what he wanted

 

[simonhirst]

Vince Hebner and Michaels had to lie in a way because had Bret have beat Michaels, then ditched teh title to become a star in WCW, whats that saying about the WWF? It would have looked liked WWF is no longer good enough to compete, WCW is the better place to be and Vince couldnt afford that to happen.

Bret isnt the most charismatic, but a good wrestler, Shawn probably is better at both than being better in one category than another. But they just weren't in the league of Hogan etc. More because the fans didnt buy it as much. Hogan had the look of a champion, then bulging arms, the all american attitude. they could buy him beating anyone and this was typified when he slammed andre.

you put a prime hogan in with a prime bret or shawn, its a no contest imo. fans would easily want hogan and thats what WWF would give them. Cloest rival is the rock or austin, which was after bret and michaels.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

bret introduced the concept of a ladder match to the wwf but michaels took it as his own idea and pitched it to vince for wrestlemania 10 against razor.

If i remember rightly, the first ever wwf ladder match was released on home video between bret and michaels. Plus with Stampede wrestling having a big impact on how a succcessful wrestling show was run on tv, everyone was bound to take ideas. Look at ECW, where both Vince and Eric took Heymans ideas and changed the face of mainstream wrestling.


As for the idea that Bret refused to job to anyone, what a joke. He flat out refused to drop the belt to Shawn*and when shawn refused to job to anyone else in the company, Bret did the same)

I hate Bret vs Shawn arguments, both parties were as bad as each other in the end, Shawn for being a cock and Bret for being unprofessional.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Neither Shawn Michaels nor Bret Hart are amazing draws, therefore not as 'great' as Hogan, (Depending on your meaning of great, that is). I'm the biggest HBK mark in the world and even I can't argue such a point, and I won't try to. However, people really do dismiss the time period. The post quoted at the top is mine, but I'll just reiterate here. If the WWE had the competition now that it had then, the ratings would be less. How much less? I don't know. But the competition from WCW was fierce, and has never been matched. It's unfaiir to judge HBK and Hart based on figures alone when it comes to this.

 

[thesacredcow]

I don't think you can blame HBK or Hart for the slump. I think people just lost interest in wrestling altogether. I don't think it has anything to do with them not being good enough replacements for Hogan in the main event. Look at WCW, Hogan didn't draw for WCW until the nWo. The ratings for Nitro round this time were about as bad, if not worse than RAW. The slump nothing to do with the people at the top of the pile. It's just the way pop culture works. Things go in and out of Fashion.

 

[BigBadBob]

i dont know about th rest of this topic..but ill snap what was said by jerry at th top..in th UK no1 watchd WCW, people either watchd wwe or nothing at all. damn i remember th days when on regular TV all you could get was Heat at 1a.m. on sunday nights..

 

[Ryanhitman316]

If i remember rightly, the first ever wwf ladder match was released on home video between bret and michaels. Plus with Stampede wrestling having a big impact on how a succcessful wrestling show was run on tv, everyone was bound to take ideas. Look at ECW, where both Vince and Eric took Heymans ideas and changed the face of mainstream wrestling.


As for the idea that Bret refused to job to anyone, what a joke. He flat out refused to drop the belt to Shawn*and when shawn refused to job to anyone else in the company, Bret did the same)

I hate Bret vs Shawn arguments, both parties were as bad as each other in the end, Shawn for being a cock and Bret for being unprofessional.

The reason why he refused to job to HBK is because HBK didn't pay him back the favor. Bret job to HBK at WM 12...which I believe Bret should had won...and there shouldn't had been no overtime....and HBK was suppose to repay him back the favor at WM 13...but he had the lost my smile thing which made Bret VS Austin instead....and now they wanted Bret to Job AGAIN to HBK at SS97? Come on man...

 

[quink987]

see what people fail to realise is that during 92 to early 96 all the made guys in wwe left to go to wcw so straight away vince needed to make new main eventers these where the main guys in the buisness who left during this time frame

sid justice.............................roddy piper
ric flair..................................ted dibiase
warrior

.........................ricky [the dragon] steamboat
randy savage..........................scott steiner
hacksaw jim duggin....................rick steiner
big bossman.............................dusty rhodes
hulk hogan................................mr perfect
lex luger.....................................1 2 3 kid
Giant Gonzalez
scott hall
kevin nash


thats just a few off the top of my head who i know had a name in wwe/f at the time before they jumped to wcw. so with all these wrestlers in wcw bret hart and hbk had no one to draw money with during thair spell as main eventers cause everyone was leaving before and during thair time so of course every is saying they were'nt as big as a draw as hulk hogan but look who hulk hogan was drawing money with during his time in wwe/f

roddy piper..........................earthquake
ted dibiase..........................sid justice
iron sheik............................don muraco
sgt slaughter ........................terry funk
andre the giant.......................undertaker
king kong bundy
yokozuna
randy savage
ultimate warrior

so with out the right opponents how can you be expected to draw big money at the ppv do you really think thousands of people would of cramped the arena to watch hulk hogan vs doink the clown for the wwf title not a chance people would of just laughed so you cant say bret hart and hbk was'nt big draws they just did'nt have big names to face sorry to go on abit i just wanted to make my point​

 

[RATED R CHAMPION]

You All Say Michaels Or Bret Are Not As Good Draws As Hogan, Come On! Shawn Michaels Is A Huge Draw, And A Lot Better Wrestler Than Hulk Hogan, Hogan In A Ring Can't Do The Half Things Michaels Do, So Michaels Is Better, Hulk Just Draws More Than Michaels, Because The Period Of Time He Came Into The Main Event, Maybe There Was No Wrestler With The Style Of Hulk, And Hogan Had The Charisma And Did Several Movies Which Helped In His Popularity.

Now... Bret Hart, Is One Of The Greatest Technical Wrestlers Of All Time! He Was A Great Draw, People Loved Him In Canada, And Very Much In Usa, But Ok Not As Good Draw As Hogan, Well Nooo, So????? I Like Bret Hart 1000's Of Times First Then Hogan As A Performer, Hogan Is A Joke In A Ring, 3 Moves And That's It He's The Champ! Woahhhhhh... Ok Is A Bussiness That's Why He Won So Many Titles... But Compared With "true" Wrestlers Like Bret And Michaels, Hogan Looks Like A Fluke-joke.

Shawn And Bret Kept The Wwf In Bussiness, How Can You Say They Have The Fault For The Slump Between 94-96? If It Were Not For Them Maybe Wwe Will Not Be Where It Is Today!!!! Wcw Had Hogan, Flair, Nash, Hall, Sting, Luger At A Time, They Had All The Big Draws, Wwf Just Had Undertaker, Michaels, Bret Hart, If Bret And Michaels Would Have Not Be Champions And Champions At That Level Maybe Wcw Would Have Destroyed Wwf.

Then Austin And The Rock Came To The Scene And Destroyed Wcw, But The Montreal Screwjob Helped, Because Vince Began Portraying Himself As An Evil Boss.

I Think Vince As A Promoter Did The Right Thing At Survivor Series 1997, In The Screwjob........why????? Simple, You Can't Allow Bret Hart To Win Your Major Title And Then Forfeit It The Next Night To Go To Wcw..... Because:

1) That Would Have Made Wwe Look Bad In Front Of Wcw
2) Maybe Bret Would Have Done What Women's Champ Alundra Blaze Did, To Appear On Wcw And Throw The Title Into The Trash Can
3) What If Bret Brought The Title To Wcw And Wwf Losses Not Only The Physical But The Meaning Of The Championship By Dropping It To Wcw?

The Only Thing I Don't Agree With Vince Is That He Didn't Tell Bret About The Ending Of The Match, And Betrayed Him, By Hiding The Result, He Should Have Told Bret About It And Convince Him, Or If He Don't Convince Him Telling Him: "well I Told You, The Ending Of The Match Is It, You Accept It Or Not? That's The Decission.

 

[Budro5454]

Don't you guys remember "The New Generation Era?" Bret and Shawn were good draws, it was the rest of the card that was completely boring. Think about it... You have Shawn taking on Nash in a cage which is a good match... but the match that probably kicked it off was Henry Godwin in a hog pin match. Enough said! At that time, Vince had absolutly no idea how to relate to the fans and give them what they wanted... not until Austin showed up. I'm not even going to compare Hogan to Shawn or Bret because those guys stole the show every single time they wrestled. There were just all different at what they did. Shawn and Bret drew big because they often through in "shoot comments" into a scripted work. These guys were trying to start the attitude era, people just related beter to Austin because he had never gotten a break like Bret and Shawn and Vince was the perfect target. Bret was just pissed because he didn't have the strap and that fans liked somebody else rather than him... believed his character a bit too much. Shawn was just just an agry guy along with just being young, immature and unprofessional. The 94-96 slump can be blammed simply on bad story writing, and no depth to compliement the main event of a PPV.

 

[kiwis473]

You have to remember that Bret Hart was given some horrible storylines to work with, like the wrestler who stole his jacket (or something like that), Jerry Lawler feuding with him over ‘who was the real king’ (side note: the real answer is neither, its wrestling).

I don’t think Bret would have ever been as successful as Hogan, in terms of a draw, all things being equal, but I think he had more longevity than Hogan. Hogan’s popularity started to fall surprisingly quickly (WWF's popularity had peaked and was on the downward slope by 1988) because he was a one trick pony, it was an extremely popular trick, but still it was only one trick. Hart obviously would not have had that problem if given the same run.

Most people don’t know this but during the later stages of the 1980’s, Hart was basically the second most popular wrestler in the WWF (until Warriors came along), and he sometimes got more fan-mail than Hogan (apparently many from young girls).

What did Hart have to deal with?
a) The steroid scandal
b) No great heels to work with
c) An undercard that consisted of Doink, Papa Shango, Mantar, the Bushwackers, Duke the Dumpster, Mabel, the Godwins and the Ice Hockey Player Guy.

I repeat, under mirrored circumstances, given the same opponents, the same setting, the same generation, Bret Hart would not have been as big a draw as a Hogan, but he would have made the boom last longer.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

This thread makes a good point. I think the reason why the WWE did alot worse than in the 80's had little to nothing to do with Bret OR Shawn. No one can ever dispute the fact that Bret and Shawn plain just weren't the big draw that hogan was (I think only austin and the rock have come near that level) but part of me thinks these were the only reasons (outside of bulldog, yoko, owen, undertaker, razor and diesel) that people even bothered to watch WWE in the first place (in the 80's the WWE had dozens of wrestlers, MOST better than the ones already listed). WWE just went to shit during that time (with the steroid scandal, trying to be kid friendly, and shitty gimmicks) and their main guys were Bret and Shawn. You also have to remember the WWE was changing their image at the time; trying to go to a more wrestling based show instead of entertainment (although this could of been because they really didn't have anyone to give it that "Sports Entertainment" feel).

Bret got put in probably the worst position a champ has ever been put in as he had to be the guy to carry the business when Hogan left, a bill of weight NOBODY could have picked up. One thing is for sure though, if Bret and Shawn weren't in the WWE at that time, there's a good chance the WWE would have shut down before 96. I Think bret deserves alot of credit for the WWE not going under during this time. Shawn's biggest problem as champ was his only fan base was Girls and teenagers, the majority of the wrestling fans at the time did not care for Shawn Michaels (This is not a knock against Michaels, Personally I thought he was great).

All in all you cant blame these two guys for the 94-96 slump. It was more of a "wrong place - wrong time" situation with bret dealing with the shit stated above and shawn being champ during the whole NWO storyline. Pretty much any wrestler(s) would have been fucked during this time period.

 

[Hacksaw Highway]

In my mind, HBK and Hart were both good draws, but the WWF had just lost the biggest draw of all time. It didn't matter who they pushed, there was no way they would measure up to Hogan.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Where it went wrong was in late 1992.. Bret had NO real heels to face off against... other than an emerging Shawn Michaels and Yokozuna which was not a good use of him... meanwhile in WCW the greatest heel Vince ever let go (and in the world at that time) was a mid carder... as I mention in my "Wrestlemania Rewrite" had Bret been facing off against Rick Rude his reign would have gone a whole different direction...

Who did Bret have to face off against really in 1993... Lawler, who no one who didn't read PWI knew anything about... He got KOTR but they already let Davey go by then...

Bret was the right man but no strong heels other than Owen to fight made his reign boring... same thing happened to Diesel... King Mabel? Shawn too soon again... what chance did Kevin have either?

These are the heels (or potential heels) who exited WWE in 1992-1993... Ric Flair...Jake Roberts... Dino Bravo... Greg Valentine... all could have had meaningful (perhaps short) feuds with Bret... but no he jobs to Yoko... and Hogan steps in...

That set the tone unfortunately...

Shawn was hampered by the fact he was not a strong face...or heel... that period he had the belt was awful in my eyes... I couldn't hate him...or cheer him... the only remotely interesting moments were when he shafted Davey Boy out of a brief title reign and the Mankind match... dull dull dull...

If my version would have happened... Davey Boy would have cost Bret the belt to Rude... he'd have feuded with Bret... Rude would have faced guys like Savage, Luger and Perfect and eventually Razor and Diesel... then lost back to Bret at WM 12 in the Ironman match...

 

[FoleyIsGod]

i dont know about th rest of this topic..but ill snap what was said by jerry at th top..in th UK no1 watchd WCW, people either watchd wwe or nothing at all. damn i remember th days when on regular TV all you could get was Heat at 1a.m. on sunday nights..

your wrong there my friend, people used to watch nitro, especially if they were on cable at the time. nitro was on tnt, which "started" when cartoon network finished. Granted it wasnt live, but with CArtoon Network being a frebie channel and Sky being a paid channel, it was better option. Hell, I never liked WCw but always remember Savage swaggering out one day!

. Plus, there was an old show, i think it was worldwide, that was shown on ITV on a Saturday afternoon, then it switched to five in like 2000.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

He is right, I watched WCW Worldwide from 1992... it was on late night and afternoon on ITV... you had to keep an eye on the schedules cos they'd move it... but you saw a lot of PPV stuff on there... like Rude v Sting as well as Scott Steiner winning the TV title by countout from Rick Steamboat...

 

[highdroGrizz]

BTW... in response to the screwjob. Does anybody ever suspect that it was a work?? Think about it, all the cameras were in the write spot, and it did favors for all individuals...

Bret-Walks to WCW without actually losing the title and fans have nothing but remorse for a so-called "underappreciated superstar."

Vince and Shawn-It created actual heat on the both of them and that is the main ingredient for a good lengthy story line. Everybody in both companies got word of this... and what did it make us do? I remember flipping back and forth to both shows to see who would do what. Seems way to good to be true considering how much for a perfect situation it created for all parties.

How about the Bret Hart documentary... a camerma happens to pick up all these conversations that Bret has with Vince? The more I've thought about it over the years (yes I do have a life), the more it makes sense.

If it was a shoot then obviously we all know how the story ended, but if was a work then it was probably the best creative move in the history of professional wrestling.

I have thought that since the beggining. To many coincidences. I love Bret Hart but even he changes the story abit from "wrestling with shadows" to his WWE dvd. Where he said it was about losing the belt in Canada, he backtracked and said it wasn't about that on the dvd. It worked too well for all involved. And for those who say Bret had no good heels to draw with are you forgetting he wrestled Kane when he was a dentist, the rock when he had goofy hair, papa godfather and the pirate guy.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

He is right, I watched WCW Worldwide from 1992... it was on late night and afternoon on ITV... you had to keep an eye on the schedules cos they'd move it... but you saw a lot of PPV stuff on there... like Rude v Sting as well as Scott Steiner winning the TV title by countout from Rick Steamboat...

Yeah, I watched Worldwide too, even when they showed it at 3am (I'd tape it). I loved Rude during that era. Jim Ross and Jesse Ventura on commentary. I always remember Ventura's Arm Wrestling contest and "Marcus Alexander Bagwell" being pushed as an up and coming rookie. "This is Jim Ross, for WCW Worldwide, so long everybody!". Great days.

But the average fan had very little knowledge of WCW and generally had a low view of it. You'd get people with Ultimate Warrior or Bret Hart lunch boxes who had absolutely no idea of who Sting was.

My point was that the UK is like 95% WWF/E-centric and always has been. Even during the Monday Night Wars most of the people who came back to watching wrestling (which wasn't that many) would turn over after the first hour of Nitro.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

On the subject of worldwide, my standout memory of it was in a caravan in primrose Valley!

The Barbarian was on tv with his manager(cant think of his name), and he was ranting about Ron Simmons(aka Farooq)

God, I really am that old and sad to remember that! He was hardly the best worker around!

 

[danewera88]

I don't think you can blame HBK or Hart for the slump. I think people just lost interest in wrestling altogether. I don't think it has anything to do with them not being good enough replacements for Hogan in the main event. Look at WCW, Hogan didn't draw for WCW until the nWo. The ratings for Nitro round this time were about as bad, if not worse than RAW. The slump nothing to do with the people at the top of the pile. It's just the way pop culture works. Things go in and out of Fashion.

I couldn't agree more and would just add that it's common for people to blame the guys at the very top. But you have to remember that it takes more than one person to fill a match.
Shawn Michaels may not have drawn huge numbers in the ratings, but, HELLO people, Hogan never had to draw ratings for television. Raw wasn't around when he was a full time wrestler for WWF 1992 and before - Raw debuted in early 1993. As far as Saturday Night Main Event, it wasn't a live weekly program.
I don't know the PPV buy numbers for the period being talked about, but it obviously wasn't so bad the company went under so get over it.
In the end, Shawn Michaels was a better wrestler than Hulk Hogan, a better in ring entertainer than Hulk Hogan, and cut better promos than Hulk Hogan. Yeah.
That's right i said it. HBK > Hulk Hogan
Hogan is a lot like Bill O'reilly on Fox News. They think that if you talk the loudest and point your finger at the camera and tell people to pray to a fake space god that makes you the best. The truth is that Hogan said the same thing everytime, was never original and, in my opinion, never put much thought into what he was saying, nor did he care enough to put that effort in.
Good ol' HBK, on the other hand, was always innovative, in the ring and on the mic. I have no desire to here what Hogan had to say before his matches, or for that matter, against HBK in 05. By the way, Hogan never had to cut a 10-20 minute promo on live television until he got to WCW, and those were poor at best, the NWO owes a debt of gratitude to Nash and Hall (mostly Nash) But i have to here what HBK is gonna say, before matches or on Raw, because it is always evolving, and always original.
Hogan played a cartoon wrestling character.
Shawn Michaels was a professional wrestler. Plain and simple.
And Bret Hart fits somewhere in the middle. No disrespect.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

I couldn't agree more and would just add that it's common for people to blame the guys at the very top. But you have to remember that it takes more than one person to fill a match.

Granted, Hogan had better heels to work with.

Shawn Michaels may not have drawn huge numbers in the ratings, but, HELLO people, Hogan never had to draw ratings for television. Raw wasn't around when he was a full time wrestler for WWF 1992 and before - Raw debuted in early 1993. As far as Saturday Night Main Event, it wasn't a live weekly program. I don't know the PPV buy numbers for the period being talked about, but it obviously wasn't so bad the company went under so get over it.

Remember that google can be your friend: http://100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfppvbr.htm

Note the WM figures. 1987 (Hogan v Andre) = 10.7, 1995 (HBK vs. Deisel) = 1.3

No major P.P.V. event where Hogan was in the main goes lower than 2.0. The drop off is MASSIVE.

Also, I remember watching an ep of Legends of Wrestling (I think it's the Monday Night Wars one) where Jim Ross talks about how close WWF was to going under in 1996. He said he had to take a massive pay cut and Vince was desperate to get rid of Bret due to his massive contract. They didn't go under but it was close.

In the end, Shawn Michaels was a better wrestler than Hulk Hogan, a better in ring entertainer than Hulk Hogan, and cut better promos than Hulk Hogan. Yeah.
That's right i said it. HBK > Hulk Hogan
Hogan is a lot like Bill O'reilly on Fox News. They think that if you talk the loudest and point your finger at the camera and tell people to pray to a fake space god that makes you the best. The truth is that Hogan said the same thing everytime, was never original and, in my opinion, never put much thought into what he was saying, nor did he care enough to put that effort in.

Good ol' HBK, on the other hand, was always innovative, in the ring and on the mic. I have no desire to here what Hogan had to say before his matches, or for that matter, against HBK in 05. By the way, Hogan never had to cut a 10-20 minute promo on live television until he got to WCW, and those were poor at best, the NWO owes a debt of gratitude to Nash and Hall (mostly Nash) But i have to here what HBK is gonna say, before matches or on Raw, because it is always evolving, and always original.
Hogan played a cartoon wrestling character.
Shawn Michaels was a professional wrestler. Plain and simple.

So just tell me then why that New York crowd at Survivor Series 1996 HATED him when he was booked as a babyface champ? Go and watch that HBK vs. Sid match and listen to how loud those boos are and how loud the cheers are for Sid. And remember this is Sid we're talking about.

At one point in that match Sid nails Jose Lothario who was booked as a legend accompanying HBK to the ring as some sort of father-figure to him. That was a clear and obvious heel action and the it got a massive pop. That's like Cena-heat.

Now tell me this: if HBK is as good as you say, why he couldn't do the most fundamental thing in the game (i.e. getting the right reaction form the crowd)? And do you recall when DX were a HEEL outfit that he was frequently cheered? Whatever you might think, that's not a good thing. How can you say HBK was a better wrestler when he couldn't even do the most basic of Wrestling ABCs? You can't say that the crowd's reaction is out of his control because working the crowd is a massive part of what wrestling is about.

Hogan wasn't even booed when he was booked to wrestle other faces (see WM5 and WM6). And just watch that first NWO promo from Bash at the Beach 1996. That was Nash and Hall was it? Come on, wake up and smell the coffee.