Summerslam 2011 - Kelly Kelly vs. Beth Phoenix - WWE Divas Championship

[D-Man]

The Biggest Event of the Summer just got a whole lot hotter, as Beth Phoenix will challenge Divas Champion Kelly Kelly for the illustrious Divas Championship at SummerSlam. And if winning the title means destroying Kelly in the process ... well, so be it.

Since claiming her first Divas Championship, Kelly Kelly has been on an absolute tear, scoring a barrage of high-profile victories in singles, tag team and even 7-on-7 Divas Tag Team match-ups. Kelly Kelly has practically grown up before the WWE Universe’s eyes, working more than five years to get her chance to shine. Yet even though her triumphs appear as golden as the August sun, the challenge she is about to face could ultimately leave her scorched.

In a Raw Battle Royal featuring both Raw and SmackDown Divas to determine the No. 1 contender to the blonde bombshell, The Glamazon overcame the entire Divas locker room. Perhaps one of the most heralded and dominant Divas ever to grace WWE, one thing has fallen out of her grasp – the Divas Championship. As she hoisted both Bellas out of the ring, Beth Phoenix grabbed her chance at the butterfly-emblazoned title, and took aim at Kelly Kelly, proclaiming: “Your days as the cute, little blonde-haired bimbo are over.”

Summerslam always tries to deliver the best possible matches they can and this one is no different. Yeah, we know... no one cares about Divas matches. But considering the scenario and the fact that a Divas title match MUST happen at Summerslam, Beth Phoenix has always proven to be someone that people want to watch. Not to mention the fact that Phoenix looks completely superior as compared to K2.

Personally, I don't see Beth's actions on Raw last night as a "heel turn." Beth has been a babyface for a long time now and just because she's sending a message to the Divas champion (who happens to be a babyface) doesn't mean that all of a sudden she should be a heel. But I'm sure it will play out that way as the weeks until the event unfold.

Anyway, I'd imagine the WWE wishes to book Kelly Kelly to win and it would be a total travesty if I was to be correct. Beth Phoenix is completely dominant in every way and it just wouldn't be believable for Kelly to come out with a victory unless Phoenix either got counted out or disqualified.

Discuss how you feel this will end up and make sure you back up your answers with good reasoning.

 

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

Yes, a thread on this for those of us who don't always totally hate the women's division. And as this involves one of my favourite women wrestlers I have to comment.

I think you're right, Beth's victory is the only believable one. Because Kelly Kelly isn't even potrayed with a pretense of having anywhere near the fighting capabilities of Phoenix. But I disagree with you on the babyface issue. I think she will do a full heel turn; KK is their most marketable face at the moment and although Beth'll probably get cheered to some extent, she'll be the heel. Beth is one of the next most over after Kelly, so she threatens Kelly's position as top Diva face. Making her heel will rectify this to some extent. Unless Beth ends up as the female version of Kane (she is a firebird after all) and she just turns into a heel or face depending on who she's facing with each feud.

I think Beth won't win it here for some reason, because it seems too recent that Kelly won the title - but then Diva reigns are often quite short in recent times. Kelly could win through outside interference though, or a countout/DQ as you said. They've continued to put attention to Kelly and Eve Torres' friendship, a factor which could play out to KK's advantage in the coming match.

There is another point that could be brought into this feud - the Glamazon has previously held the women's title, but never the Divas' title. So this is an important target for her, and she has a clear heel motivation - Kelly gets the spotlight, photo shoots etc, all the publicity and legions of loyal fans, but ultimately Phoenix feels she'd represent the actual championship better. If WWE is smart they'll continue the recent trend of 'shooting' and have Beth do a promo or an interview on this.

My preferential outcome: Beth Phoenix wins the title
My estimated outcome: Kelly Kelly retains; 'upset victory'

 

[1truefan]

Beth vs any Diva for the Divas Championship has been long overdue so I am glad that Beth won last night. I am afraid though that WWE will book Kelly to win just like they did with Candice Michelle back in 2007. I hope I am wrong though. But if that is the case I anticipate a rematch at NOC which Beth should win. Either way I want Beth to win and have a lengthy dominant reign reminiscent of her first reign as women's champ. Which will hopefully last into the new year allowing for the re-debut of kharma and what should be an awesome match at mania. Am I reaching for the stars here? Most likely because what I want is not what WWE wants. But we will see I will pick Beth for the win (which should be a squash match) but I doubt WWE will go that route.

 

[starcommander1]

With Kharma gone and any chance of her versus Beth Phoenix gone as well, she turning against Kelly makes sense. She has been underutilized for so long that finally winning a title shot after being overlooked for a "girly-girl", her frustration feels real! I really thought that Eve would turn on K2 but c'mon, would anyone pick Kelly over Beth (in a wrestling match)?
I predict Beth Phoenix will win a Simmerslam, thus allowing the other overlooked divas (Melina, Gail Kim and Natayla) to get their title shots!

 

[adchap1991]

i do agree with what people have said apart from what has been said in regards to beth phoenix's heel turn, what i saw was preety solid, she was attacked and thrown into a guard rail, i dont see how thats not a heel turn, she had very heelish body language on her way back from the attack as well. i am more excited for this match then recent kelly kelly and bella matches, this is focused on a diva that can wrestle vs a diva that has grown into a performer in front of our very eyes. i dont see beth winning yet. but this has to be something to do with goldust being the agent for the women now, they had a whole 7minutes last night rather then a 3minute battle royal. i am one that cares for this division and this is perhaps a start of a reason to care, no matter how much people belittle this division. they have the talent, they just dont know how to use it to proper affect. good show last night.

 

[TJWWE]

I'm glad Beth is getting a push again in the title pictures, it's long overdue. I think Kelly will be booked like Candice was back in 07 vs Beth, defeats Beth at the 1st PPV and Beth wins at the next one & this is what I see them doing here. Kelly winning at Summerslam and Beth winning at NOC.

 

[The Future Rises]

Well Kelly did beat Beth once in the middle of Beth's "GlaMarella" push with a roll up and it actually looked believable. So you never know same thing can happen this sunday. As much as I like Kelly. I'm gonna have to agree with you. It wouldn't look believable for Kelly to beat Beth cleanly with her finisher. I mean I can see a roll up win for Kelly but I can't see them going as far as to make Beth job to Kelly. I'm actually hoping Kelly wins this. She's worked hard for it and just like The Miz she does everything for the company. I wouldn't mind Beth winning though if I want anyone to take the title from Kelly it's Beth. But what I want to see is Kelly beating Beth with a roll up finish.

 

[Daniel]

Probably the best match-up they could have gone with - even if Kelly Kelly is in it. Phoenix has consistently been one of the superior Divas in WWE. She can talk, has charisma, can work in the ring, she has a great look and always gets good reactions (well, for a Diva, that is). I'd prefer her as a face, her look definitely screams face rather than heel. I also feel that her heel turn could have been handled better. I mean, what's wrong with build? Maybe have her feel conflicted leading up to SummerSlam and then attacking Kelly the week before SummerSlam. Makes perfect sense to me. Preferably though, Kelly Kelly would be the heel. She absolutely sucks as a face and it could give her a bit of personality.

As for the match, I'm hoping that Phoenix can lead Kelly Kelly to a decent match. But the cynic in me feels that Kelly will just do her boring, sloppy wrestling. As for the result, probably a Kelly Kelly win. WWE seem to like her as a wholesome Divas Champion. I'd obviously prefer a Phoenix win, on account of her being really rather good.

 

[Wade's Public Transit Bomb]

Ok. Quick question:

What exactly makes Beth one of the "better" divas? Is it because she can chuck people half her size (well, minus the atomic drop)? Or is it because she can no sell like the best of them? She is suppose to be a strong woman, but manages to screw up her atomic drop pretty much every time.. So, there goes that gimmick. She is amazing at just doing moves with no rhyme or reason.. So, there goes the "storytelling."

This does not look like a fun match. Beth is going to like kill Kelly with a move to the outside and slap on a hammerlock in the middle of the ring instead of going for the pin. That's just how she rolls. And Kelly will be screaming like she's being prison raped by a bunch of men the whole time. I hope people take their piss break during this match; for the people's sake anyway.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I really fuckin hope Phoenix wins. Kelly Kelly isn't that over and she's terrible in every possible way a pro wrestler can be terrible. Not only that but WWE doesn't book Bourne to go over bigger guys (and rightfully so, it doesn't fit the reality of mainstream US wrestling) so they sure as hell shouldn't book scrawny, unathletic, awkward Kelly Kelly over super fit Phoenix. That'd be like booking a special olympics sprinter to beat Usain Bolt in a race.

I agree with the guy above me. A lot of people on here think "moves=wrestler". A lot of women's wrestlers seem to pride themselves on being able to do moves but don't put any thought into why they're doing them. Still, Kelly Kelly is horrible. She sold being thrown into the barricade last week by lying there and looking like she lost her directions and is now in the wrong part of town. You just got thrown into a barricade, fuckin squirm and hold your back and act like you're having trouble breathing. Selling is NOT a passive act.

 

[D-Man]

Ok. Quick question:

What exactly makes Beth one of the "better" divas? Is it because she can chuck people half her size (well, minus the atomic drop)? Or is it because she can no sell like the best of them? She is suppose to be a strong woman, but manages to screw up her atomic drop pretty much every time.. So, there goes that gimmick. She is amazing at just doing moves with no rhyme or reason.. So, there goes the "storytelling."

I think her size and build tell her entire story. I mean, come on now... Beth is truly an amazon. When she won the battle royal and Kelly went to hug her Beth dwarfed every one of K2's body parts. Kelly's hand was on Beth's shoulder and looked like a mosquito. Not to mention the fact that Beth Phoenix is, hands down, the best wrestler on the Divas roster. Although she no-sells moves, this is because a 115lb blondie diva should not be able to knock out a 5'6" 150lb woman made of pure muscle with one punch.

By the way, what "atomic drop" are you referring to? I imagine you're speaking of her finisher, the Glam Slam. If that's the case, she gets nowhere near messing it up. Matter of fact, I'd go as far as saying she hits it safely and perfectly every time, thanks to her size and strength.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I think her size and build tell her entire story. I mean, come on now... Beth is truly an amazon. When she won the battle royal and Kelly went to hug her Beth dwarfed every one of K2's body parts. Kelly's hand was on Beth's shoulder and looked like a mosquito. Not to mention the fact that Beth Phoenix is, hands down, the best wrestler on the Divas roster. Although she no-sells moves, this is because a 115lb blondie diva should not be able to knock out a 5'6" 150lb woman made of pure muscle with one punch.

By the way, what "atomic drop" are you referring to? I imagine you're speaking of her finisher, the Glam Slam. If that's the case, she gets nowhere near messing it up. Matter of fact, I'd go as far as saying she hits it safely and perfectly every time, thanks to her size and strength.

I think he means no sells, not just in the normal sense, but that she doesn't actually sell when she's supposed to be selling.

You still didn't answer his thought on how her shit makes no sense. You basically said "she's big and is the best wrestler" but HE'S saying that doing a bunch of moves doesn't make you a good "wrestler". If you can't sell worth a fuck, and you can't tell a story in the ring, you're not that good of a "wrestler".

I think the whole "she's bigger so she shouldn't sell" thing is bullshit too. Abyss is proportionally bigger than Kendrick than Phoenix is to any of the divas, yet he at least stumbled around on Kendrick's stuff. That's not an excuse. Being athletic and knowing how to do moves isn't that impressive. To an extent, every trained pro wrestler is athletic and can do moves.

 

[D-Man]

I think he means no sells, not just in the normal sense, but that she doesn't actually sell when she's supposed to be selling.

You still didn't answer his thought on how her shit makes no sense. You basically said "she's big and is the best wrestler" but HE'S saying that doing a bunch of moves doesn't make you a good "wrestler". If you can't sell worth a fuck, and you can't tell a story in the ring, you're not that good of a "wrestler".

I think the whole "she's bigger so she shouldn't sell" thing is bullshit too. Abyss is proportionally bigger than Kendrick than Phoenix is to any of the divas, yet he at least stumbled around on Kendrick's stuff. That's not an excuse. Being athletic and knowing how to do moves isn't that impressive. To an extent, every trained pro wrestler is athletic and can do moves.

Brian Kendrick certainly isn't a 115lb blonde diva. So your comparison with Abyss, while logical, really doesn't make sense here.

I hate to say things like this but we all need to face facts: do ANY divas tell a story in the ring? As far as I see, they put together enough moves to take up two or three minutes of television time every week on Raw and Smackdown and none of it really makes a whole lot of sense. It's the same formula: babyface divas has the upper hand for a short while until she makes a mistake, heel divas takes over and dominates for majority of the match, babyface divas makes a comeback, typical go home sequence. None of ever really changes.

Prior to Phoenix being lost in the shuffle over the past few years, she was one of the only divas to really put on quality matches with just about everyone. From Melina to Michelle McCool to Layla to Mickie James, Beth was always able to provide us with a match we were interested to see. However, Mickie is now in TNA, Melina is shuffled back into the deck, Michelle McCool is officially retired and Layla is injured. It takes "two to tango" in the professional wrestling industry.

So in the end I agree and disagree with you guys. Yes, Beth Phoenix does her share of no-selling moves if that makes sense in the match. Yes, Beth Phoenix has trouble with "storytelling" in a ring because her opponents are greener than the day is long. But no, this doesn't mean she isn't the best female wrestler on the current roster. She has the strength, beauty, agility, and charisma that is superior over all other divas in the company but I doubt we'll see much improvement in the categories that you mentioned here because her opponents can't wrestle to save their lives.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Brian Kendrick certainly isn't a 115lb blonde diva. So your comparison with Abyss, while logical, really doesn't make sense here.

I hate to say things like this but we all need to face facts: do ANY divas tell a story in the ring? As far as I see, they put together enough moves to take up two or three minutes of television time every week on Raw and Smackdown and none of it really makes a whole lot of sense. It's the same formula: babyface divas has the upper hand for a short while until she makes a mistake, heel divas takes over and dominates for majority of the match, babyface divas makes a comeback, typical go home sequence. None of ever really changes.

Prior to Phoenix being lost in the shuffle over the past few years, she was one of the only divas to really put on quality matches with just about everyone. From Melina to Michelle McCool to Layla to Mickie James, Beth was always able to provide us with a match we were interested to see. However, Mickie is now in TNA, Melina is shuffled back into the deck, Michelle McCool is officially retired and Layla is injured. It takes "two to tango" in the professional wrestling industry.

So in the end I agree and disagree with you guys. Yes, Beth Phoenix does her share of no-selling moves if that makes sense in the match. Yes, Beth Phoenix has trouble with "storytelling" in a ring because her opponents are greener than the day is long. But no, this doesn't mean she isn't the best female wrestler on the current roster. She has the strength, beauty, agility, and charisma that is superior over all other divas in the company but I doubt we'll see much improvement in the categories that you mentioned here because her opponents can't wrestle to save their lives.

You ever been slapped by a 115 pound woman? I've seen guys rocked by them who are bigger than Phoenix, she should sell.

Yea, none of them tell a story. I mean, in the skeleton version of the typical match what you said they do. However, none of them show any will to win, any strategy, any anything. Just moves and going through the motions as you said. I think this is more the fault of the trainers and the agents in the back.

It does take "two to tango" but the fact remains that a "good match" is subjective. The reason the matches don't get over (which isn't subjective) is because Beth doesn't sell and she doesn't tell a story in the ring. She can do moves all she wants, she's not getting over.

It doesn't matter that Kelly Kelly can't wrestle. It'd be super easy to tell a story with Beth and Kelly Kelly.

If I'm Arn Anderson or whoever is the assigned agent for the match, here's what I tell them. KK jumps all over Beth, not trying to outwrestle her because she knows that's not gonna happen. So she's pulling hair, biting, screaming, giving Beth a hell of a time. Beth keeps shrugging her off and trying to gather herself, eventually Beth DRILLS KK with something. Kick to the twat, something. Then Beth dominates. Just mauls her, I mean people are calling the police for assault abuse. However, KK doesn't give up. She keeps kicking out. Beth stretches her and bends her in half, KK still doesn't give up. During this, Beth MUST go for frequent covers and actually try to win. Don't act too frustrated at first, but get realy upset as it goes on. Beth gets despirate and takes KK to the floor. Eventually Beth has KK out on her feet on the floor by the post. Beth runs at KK, KK collapses, Beth KOs herself on the post, KK rolls back in for the win.
KK literally has to do nothing except bitch and scratch at first (every woman can do) and take an ass whipping. Beth just has to be a wrestler, sell a little bit, and do moves and make pins. It's not that hard to tell a story. The way I structured the match gets KK over as resiliant and Beth over as a monster. KK gets lucky to hold the strap. Neither looks weak, it plays to both of their strengths, and you're set up for a rematch to keep the story going.

 

[D-Man]

It does take "two to tango" but the fact remains that a "good match" is subjective. The reason the matches don't get over (which isn't subjective) is because Beth doesn't sell and she doesn't tell a story in the ring. She can do moves all she wants, she's not getting over.

This is another subject for another thread but Beth has told PLENTY of stories in the ring and I could easily find videos of them. The problem is that 90% of wrestling fans have a short-term memory so they forget what Beth did when she had quality opponents. While Raw and Smackdown matches rarely tell stories in the ring, PPV matches always do. They tell horrible stories, but stories nonetheless.

And I agree completely by saying that the trainers are to blame here. Goldust is now working with the divas so hopefully he puts together a match at the PPV that makes sense. But this also contradicts your previous point since you said the trainers are to blame for lack of storytelling, yet we need to blame Beth Phoenix for not being able to tell a story in the ring. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

If I'm Arn Anderson or whoever is the assigned agent for the match, here's what I tell them. KK jumps all over Beth, not trying to outwrestle her because she knows that's not gonna happen. So she's pulling hair, biting, screaming, giving Beth a hell of a time. Beth keeps shrugging her off and trying to gather herself, eventually Beth DRILLS KK with something. Kick to the twat, something. Then Beth dominates. Just mauls her, I mean people are calling the police for assault abuse. However, KK doesn't give up. She keeps kicking out. Beth stretches her and bends her in half, KK still doesn't give up. During this, Beth MUST go for frequent covers and actually try to win. Don't act too frustrated at first, but get realy upset as it goes on. Beth gets despirate and takes KK to the floor. Eventually Beth has KK out on her feet on the floor by the post. Beth runs at KK, KK collapses, Beth KOs herself on the post, KK rolls back in for the win.
KK literally has to do nothing except bitch and scratch at first (every woman can do) and take an ass whipping. Beth just has to be a wrestler, sell a little bit, and do moves and make pins. It's not that hard to tell a story. The way I structured the match gets KK over as resiliant and Beth over as a monster. KK gets lucky to hold the strap. Neither looks weak, it plays to both of their strengths, and you're set up for a rematch to keep the story going.

How can you say this makes neither diva look weak? You've basically got Kelly Kelly taking a ridiculous amount of punishment during the match and delivers little to no offense. You think that giving Kelly an iron chin but the inability to cause any damage to Beth (unless a steel pole is involved) doesn't make her weak? And they're supposed to have a follow-up match after that? If anything, it puts Beth over and buries Kelly as a credible champion. You need to balance the match out a bit more.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

This is another subject for another thread but Beth has told PLENTY of stories in the ring and I could easily find videos of them. The problem is that 90% of wrestling fans have a short-term memory so they forget what Beth did when she had quality opponents. While Raw and Smackdown matches rarely tell stories in the ring, PPV matches always do. They tell horrible stories, but stories nonetheless.

And I agree completely by saying that the trainers are to blame here. Goldust is now working with the divas so hopefully he puts together a match at the PPV that makes sense. But this also contradicts your previous point since you said the trainers are to blame for lack of storytelling, yet we need to blame Beth Phoenix for not being able to tell a story in the ring. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense...



How can you say this makes neither diva look weak? You've basically got Kelly Kelly taking a ridiculous amount of punishment during the match and delivers little to no offense. You think that giving Kelly an iron chin but the inability to cause any damage to Beth (unless a steel pole is involved) doesn't make her weak? And they're supposed to have a follow-up match after that? If anything, it puts Beth over and buries Kelly as a credible champion. You need to balance the match out a bit more.

On Raw and Smackdown the guys don't tell detailed stories but they tell stories. It's subtle. It's body language. Like Cena not really protecting the leg against Rey's leg kicks early, then jumping out of the way later on and protecting more. Showing at first he didn't respect Reys kicking power but after taking a few he did. Little shit like that.

Show me the Beth Phoenix videos and explain the ring psychology and story she's telling in each video.

Beth is a vet and is supposed to be a more technical women's wrestler. She should know better. The trainers are to blame for Kelly Kelly lying there next to the barricade just looking around instead of selling her ass off. Yea, I'm more harsh on Beth, but she's there to lead the models. I like Golddust, he knows all the little things.

No KK doesn't look weak. She never gives up. She draws sympathy. She's a tiny little babyface, she's not a badass. She's supposed to get her ass kicked. Stone Cold took a hell of an ass whipping and never gave up against Bret Hart at Mania 13, got him pretty fuckin over didn't it? People like babyfaces who never give up and Terry Funk once said "sympathy is the best thing a babyface can have". So basically this match makes Beth look like a monster and KK looks like she has a ton of heart and is drawing sympathy for being so valiant.

A balanced match with KK and Beth would make Beth look incredibly weak. Beth SHOULD destroy KK. Also, this match is like 5 minutes long so it's not like KK is getting beaten around the ring for 30 minutes. It'd be like a kick to the face, a snap suplex, a powerslam, a boston crab, a few clotheslines, then she takes her outside. If you want, throw in some hope spots. KK hurricaranas out of a powerbomb, hits a few punches, then gets kicked in the face. She wheelbarrow DDTs out of a german suplex, but when she goes to hit the ropes Beth pulls her hair to stop her. Shit like that.

How would you structure the match?

 

[D-Man]

No KK doesn't look weak. She never gives up. She draws sympathy. She's a tiny little babyface, she's not a badass. She's supposed to get her ass kicked. Stone Cold took a hell of an ass whipping and never gave up against Bret Hart at Mania 13, got him pretty fuckin over didn't it? People like babyfaces who never give up and Terry Funk once said "sympathy is the best thing a babyface can have". So basically this match makes Beth look like a monster and KK looks like she has a ton of heart and is drawing sympathy for being so valiant.

Stone Cold and Terry Funk also won world championships by actually BEATING opponents instead of moving out of the way so they could beat themselves. I don't ever recall one world champion in history winning a world title match by not executing ONE successful, offensive move throughout the match. It's just plain silly to book a match that way.

In order for Kelly to be a credible champion, she must be able to execute successful offense during her title matches, especially against the likes of Beth Phoenix. Just about any successful move that Kelly makes against Beth in this match will put her over as a stronger, more credible and competitive champion. Beth just needs to do the same thing she's always done and that is showcase her power.

How would you structure the match?

I don't do fantasy booking and fake play-by-play so I won't give a match breakdown, move for move. And I don't think anyone else should, either, unless their names are Dean Malenko, Dustin Runnels, Arn Anderson, Ricky Steamboat, or the like.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Stone Cold and Terry Funk also won world championships by actually BEATING opponents instead of moving out of the way so they could beat themselves. I don't ever recall one world champion in history winning a world title match by not executing ONE successful, offensive move throughout the match. It's just plain silly to book a match that way.

In order for Kelly to be a credible champion, she must be able to execute successful offense during her title matches, especially against the likes of Beth Phoenix. Just about any successful move that Kelly makes against Beth in this match will put her over a a stronger, more credible and competitive champion. Beth just needs to do the same thing she's always done and that is showcase her power.



I don't do fantasy booking and fake play-by-play so I won't give a match breakdown, move for move. And I don't think anyone else should, either, unless their names are Dean Malenko, Dustin Runnels, Arn Anderson, Ricky Steamboat, or the like.

You probably didn't see my edit. What about with the 2 hope spots? It makes KK look a little more "credible" I guess having her reverse some moves. Although I think having a scrawny, unathletic champion kinda makes everyone lose credibility.

So I guess no videos of Beth telling a story in the ring or you explaining what's going on?

 

[D-Man]

You probably didn't see my edit. What about with the 2 hope spots? It makes KK look a little more "credible" I guess having her reverse some moves.

Two spots are just as good as having no spots. So I'll ask again, have you ever seen a world champion defend their title and win the match by executing two offensive moves the whole time? Shit... even Ivory got more offense in on Chyna during their Women's Championship match at Wrestlemania 17!

Although I think having a scrawny, unathletic champion kinda makes everyone lose credibility.

Then I guess we can discredit every divas champion (with a few exceptions) that we've had for the past five years.

So I guess no videos of Beth telling a story in the ring or you explaining what's going on?

No because I'm a G-Mod of this forum and will not break the rules by derailing the topic of a thread. Go search on YouTube for all of Beth's matches when she was champion. You'll find plenty of material there to support these facts.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Two spots are just as good as having no spots. So I'll ask again, have you ever seen a world champion defend their title and win the match by executing two offensive moves the whole time? Shit... even Ivory got more offense in on Chyna during their Women's Championship match at Wrestlemania 17!



Then I guess we can discredit every divas champion (with a few exceptions) that we've had for the past five years.



No because I'm a G-Mod of this forum and will not break the rules by derailing the topic of a thread. Go search on YouTube for all of Beth's matches when she was champion. You'll find plenty of material there to support these facts.

Apparently (according to many on here) John Cena has been the biggest babyface in the company using only 5 moves. I think a flury at the beginning, 2 hope spots, and a defensive despiration move when the heel is trying to injure her is okay for a 5 minute match.

Kelly Kelly is smaller and less athletic than most of the divas. Some have been the same size, but KK isn't athletic at all. Trish was small, but she was athletic, the Bellas, Maryse, these girls are athletes. KK isn't athletic. She has an anorexic build, not an athletic build.

Could you PM me the vids and your explanation of the storytelling. I mostly want to see how you percieve storytelling and ring psychology. Plus I wanna get straight to the prime examples.

 

[D-Man]

Apparently (according to many on here) John Cena has been the biggest babyface in the company using only 5 moves. I think a flury at the beginning, 2 hope spots, and a defensive despiration move when the heel is trying to injure her is okay for a 5 minute match.

That John Cena argument is the biggest crock of BS to ever hit this forum. To use that in your argument here is laughable, at best. Not to mention the fact that (theoretically) having 5 moves in your arsenal doesn't mean that you only successfully execute each of them only once per match.

Now you're changing your story. You're saying a flurry at the beginning, two "hope spots", and a defensive desperation while before you were saying zero offense and moving out of the way so Beth could knock herself out. I guess you're starting to see the logic in matches. But I am not a road agent, I'm not a wrestler, and I'm not going to sit here and act like I know more about "storytelling" and "match structure" than someone else. No offense but hearing someone else try to dictate it all to me is just making me roll my eyes.

Kelly Kelly is smaller and less athletic than most of the divas. Some have been the same size, but KK isn't athletic at all. Trish was small, but she was athletic, the Bellas, Maryse, these girls are athletes. KK isn't athletic. She has an anorexic build, not an athletic build.

What are you talking about? Divas like Alicia Fox, the Bella Twins, Rosa Mendez, and Maryse were nothing but models prior to getting signed by the WWE. They have no former athletic training of any way, shape or form while Kelly Kelly has a background in cheerleading and gymnastics. That gives her a significant athletic advantage over 1/4 of the Divas roster (since there are 16 total divas employed by the WWE.) Kelly lacks in size over many of them in the same way that Stone Cold lacked in size against the majority of the roster over his years as a dominant champion.

Could you PM me the vids and your explanation of the storytelling. I mostly want to see how you percieve storytelling and ring psychology. Plus I wanna get straight to the prime examples.

I already told you where to look for them. I'm not going to take the time to search for the "best" ones, copy and paste them into a PM to satisfy your curiosity. Besides, I'm sure that your opinion on them will be just as subjective as mine and you'll break the matches down, flaw by flaw, with your less than professional opinion.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

That John Cena argument is the biggest crock of BS to ever hit this forum. To use that in your argument here is laughable, at best. Not to mention the fact that (theoretically) having 5 moves in your arsenal doesn't mean that you only successfully execute each of them only once per match.

Now you're changing your story. You're saying a flurry at the beginning, two "hope spots", and a defensive desperation while before you were saying zero offense and moving out of the way so Beth could knock herself out. I guess you're starting to see the logic in matches. But I am not a road agent, I'm not a wrestler, and I'm not going to sit here and act like I know more about "storytelling" and "match structure" than someone else. No offense but hearing someone else try to dictate it all to me is just making me roll my eyes.



What are you talking about? Divas like Alicia Fox, the Bella Twins, Rosa Mendez, and Maryse were nothing but models prior to getting signed by the WWE. They have no former athletic training of any way, shape or form while Kelly Kelly has a background in cheerleading and gymnastics. That gives her a significant athletic advantage over 1/4 of the Divas roster (since there are 16 total divas employed by the WWE.) Kelly lacks in size over many of them in the same way that Stone Cold lacked in size against the majority of the roster over his years as a dominant champion.



I already told you where to look for them. I'm not going to take the time to search for the "best" ones, copy and paste them into a PM to satisfy your curiosity. Besides, I'm sure that your opinion on them will be just as subjective as mine and you'll break the matches down, flaw by flaw, with your less than professional opinion.

Yes the Cena thing is a crock. If you read any of my posts in the millions of Cena threads, you'll see where I stand on that. I said that more as a joke.

I'm not trying to dictate anything. I made a suggestion how you could take Beth's size and "move doing" ability and KKs total lack of ability into a match. I didn't change my story. I said " KK jumps all over Beth, not trying to outwrestle her because she knows that's not gonna happen. So she's pulling hair, biting, screaming, giving Beth a hell of a time. Beth keeps shrugging her off and trying to gather herself, eventually Beth DRILLS KK with something." so basically I had KK mauling Beth with hair pulls, scratches, slaps, all kinds of shit in a flurry with Beth pushing her off a few times like you see in any big man vs little man match. Then I added the 2 hope spots because yea, she does need a move or 2 and hope spots are key in keeping the crowd involved.

Yes, neither one of us do this for a living. However, I find discussing stuff intelligently with people who have different opinions than your own is the best way to learn things. Well, besides reading books and going to lectures. The closest thing I have to lectures are the "secrets of the ring" series with guys like Raven, my talks with Funk and Race, and listening to Trevor Murdoch critique matches. I'm no expert and there definately aren't textbooks out there on wrestling. So this is what I do.

KK does not look athletic. Maybe it's just me. She just looks like a scrawny, unathletic, anorexic 16 year old. The other girls looked like decent athletes to me. Whether they were more or less athletic who knows. They just all come across as more athletic than KK. Maybe I don't pay enough attention, but I don't believe KK could carry in the groceries without having someone help her lift them.

K, Ill youtube search "Beth Phoneix womens title match vs" and see what pops up. Or I'll just wait until I get to it. I'm currently trying to watch every Raw and PPV during the "Raw era" so I'll eventually see them.

 

[kaneso14]

I can see KK winning this one. Vince is really high on her as the face of the Diva's and Beth hasn't really been seen since her program with LayCool last year. I would really love to see Beth win this one but I think KK will win by a rollup or something like that. Kayfabe wise, there should be no way she could out wrestle the Glamazon.

To those saying KK isn't over. Have you heard the cheers she gets? She is easily the most over Diva on the roster.

 

[Wade's Public Transit Bomb]

Didn't mean to start an intelligent debate in a divas thread. I love you both. haha

I am not buying the "Beth is big, so she can no sell." Regardless of her opponent's size, she needs to be able to showcase what is happening to matters. Even if it takes smacking her with five dropkicks from five different locations, they have to some effect. It leads to people actually giving a fuck about what is going on in non-squash match situations. That is what makes Kong/Kharma/Da Fuck Her Name is so good. She knows just when to show vulnerability based on how she got hit.

And Beth does do an often flubbed atomic drop, D-Man. I know most prolly go "Okay, fridge break." when the divas come on.. But they do have their own movesets.

I will have to agree that Kelly isn't a very good in-ring performer. She isn't very athletic, she thinks audible selling is "scream like being eaten alive by aliens," and everything she does just feels very choreographed. I don't know what anyone here thought of her match with Brie at MiTB, but I thought Brie kept the action together the best she could. But Kelly was gassed before her 'big' comeback and before the big bump to the outside. Brie was in position for just about everything, but Kelly had to play catch up the whole thing. Not a good sign I don't think.

I will say I think Kelly is probably one of the more charismatic divas. Some people will bring up her looks, but aren't all of the divas (well..) marketed as being attractive? I think she is sympathetic and the such, so why not use her in a non-wrestling role? Vickie is never going to get smacked around by whoever Dolph is facing. Hello, perfect chance to get a mid-card face over.. Something the show really needs; not another diva who is clearly behind the better divas in talent.

I hate to say things like this but we all need to face facts: do ANY divas tell a story in the ring?

Hey, the Bellas, Maryse and Layla try. The Bellas are annoying brats who do anything to win, but fail. Maryse thinks she is better than everyone else, but fails at winning. As part of LayCool, Layla just ran around like an asshole about to get her ass kicked. When the people they are facing are like Beth or Eve, whom don't do anything but spam out moves, you can't expect much.

 

[remyx]

Having Beth win the title from Kelly Kelly makes sense. Have Beth destroy her and have all her rematches thrown out with Beth making KK get counted out, or unable to continue.. all because she doesn't think she even belongs in the contention for the belt. She could go on the feud with any of the other divas that can wrestle whilst Kelly Kelly could harp on about how she does the fan signings and promotion and that she works her ass off for the company and despite if people thinks she's a good wrestler she deserves the opportunity to earn another shot.

In this time it would actually put over how far Kelly has come in her time with the company. Let her work longer matches with real wrestlers and maybe by then she would have gotten a reason for people to WANT to cheer her as opposed to being the eye candy AND be better in the ring.


either way, Beth should win. She's one of the better womens wrestlers, Gail Kim being the best.. and she is pretty over and has a good character.