Stop saying "The IC Title used to be a stepping stone to the WWE title"

[Tastycles]

Because it didn't. The best way to do this is to split the titles 70 holders into groups. Because not being a stepping stone is a 'new thing' the WWE is doing according to the theory, that group will have only the 10 most recent first time champions. The other groups will have 20 each.

Here's the first 20 different champions:

Spoiler

1. Pat Patterson - never world champ in WWE
2. Ken Patera - never world champ in WWE
3. Pedro Morales - former world champ
4. Don Muraco - never world champ in WWE
5. Tito Santana - never world champ in WWE
6. Greg Valentine - never world champ in WWE
7. Randy Savage - WWE Champion
8. Ricky Steamboat - never world champ in WWE
9. Honky Tonk Man - never world champ in WWE
10. Ultimate Warrior - WWE Champion
11. Rick Rude - never world champ in WWE
12. Mr. Perfect - never world champ in WWE
13. Texas Tornado - never world champ in WWE
14. Bret Hart - WWE Champion
15. The Mountie - never world champ in WWE
16. Roddy Piper - never world champ in WWE
17. British Bulldog - never world champ in WWE
18. Shawn Michaels - WWE Champion
19. Marty Jannetty - never world champ in WWE
20. Razor Ramon - never world champ in WWE

So that's 4/20 (20%) were future champs, 1/20 (5%) were past champs and 15/20 (75%) were neither.

20 next champions:

Spoiler

1. Diesel - WWE Champion
2. Jeff Jarrett - never world champ in WWE
3. Dean Douglas - never world champ in WWE
4. Goldust - never world champ in WWE
5. Ahmed Johnson - never world champ in WWE
6. Marc Mero - never world champ in WWE
7. Triple H - WWE Champion
8. The Rock - WWE Champion
9. Owen Hart - never world champ in WWE
10. Stone Cold Steve Austin - WWE Champion
11. Ken Shamrock - never world champ in WWE
12. Val Venis - never world champ in WWE
13. Road Dogg - never world champ in WWE
14. The Godfather - never world champ in WWE
15. Edge - WWE Champion
16. D'Lo Brown - never world champ in WWE
17. Chyna - never world champ in WWE
18. Chris Jericho - WWE Champion
19. Kurt Angle - WWE Champion
20. Chris Benoit - World Heavyweight Champion

7/20 (35%) future WWE Champions, 1/20 (5%) future World Heavyweight Champions 0/20 Past world champs, 12/20 (60%) no championship.

Next 20 Champions

Spoiler

1. Rikishi - never world champ in WWE
2. Eddie Guerrero - WWE Champion
3. Kane - WWE Champion
4. Jeff Hardy - WWE Champion
5. Albert - never world champ in WWE
6. Lance Storm - never world champ in WWE
7. Christian - World Heavyweight Champ
8. Test - never world champ in WWE
9. William Regal - never world champ in WWE
10. Rob Van Dam - WWE Champion
11. Booker T - World Heavyweight Champion
12. Randy Orton - WWE Champion
13. Shelton Benjamin - never world champ in WWE
14. Carlito - never world champ in WWE
15. Ric Flair - former WWE Champion
16. Johnny Nitro - never world champ in WWE
17. Umaga - never world champ in WWE
18. Santino Marella - never world champ in WWE
19. Kofi Kingston - never world champ in WWE
20. CM Punk - WWE Champion

7/20 (35%) future WWE Champions, 2/20 (10%) future World Heavyweight Champions 1/20(5%) Past world champs, 10/20 (50%) no championship.

Most Recent 10 new champs:

Spoiler

1. JBL - Former WWE Champion
2. Rey Mysterio - WWE Champion
3. Drew McIntyre - never world champ in WWE
4. Dolph Ziggler - World Heavyweight Champion
5. Wade Barrett - never world champ in WWE
6. Ezeikel Jackson - never world champ in WWE
7. Cody Rhodes - never world champ in WWE
8. Big Show - World Heavyweight Champion
9. The Miz - Former WWE Champion
10. Curtis Axel - never world champ in WWE

2/10 (20%) future WWE Champions, 2/10 (20%) future World Heavyweight Champions, 2/10 (20%) Past world champs, 4/10 (40%) no championship.

So what we see is that in the early days, the title bore little benefit for the future of its holders, but since about 1993, about 40% of IC title holders have gone on to hold a world title, which has been the WWE championship for the vast majority.

So, the situation hasn't changed, take your rose tinted spectacles off. Unless I'm forgetting the time Marvellous Marc Mero was a World Champion.

 

[The Butcher]

Marc Mero's world championship was Sable.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I said the IC Title used to be a stepping stone in to porn.

I was right with Chyna.

What happens if you look at past world champions and see if they ever had the IC Title? The IC Title may not be a guaranteed stepping stone but the comment has it's merit. The title is pretty much meaningless now. Which is fine. If you were alive when guys like Macho and Warrior were around the title felt much different. It was like something that may actually get put on a PPV (although that statement may be proven false with data).

Nice work.

 

[Dirk]

Yeah, "title prestige"-threads are a little annoying. It's golden age thinking, I suppose.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I wouldn't say it was a stepping stone to the World title, it more meant you were a top superstar and had good matches. These days its just another belt.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

No, it's "everything was better in the past" thinking. It's a sad state to live in.

 

[Coco]

No, it's "everything was better in the past" thinking. It's a sad state to live in.

Give it ten years. We'll really, really miss Sheamus.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

The reason why people say wrestling was better in the past is because it was. Same with music, TV and movies.

Now if you'll excuse me I got some kids to yell at.

 

[Tastycles]

What happens if you look at past world champions and see if they ever had the IC Title?

To be continued...

The IC Title may not be a guaranteed stepping stone but the comment has it's merit. The title is pretty much meaningless now. Which is fine. If you were alive when guys like Macho and Warrior were around the title felt much different. .

Did it though? Because it was at exactly this time that Honky Tonk Man held the title for over a year. Some great wrestlers happened to hold the title, but that's about it.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Did it though? Because it was at exactly this time that Honky Tonk Man held the title for over a year. Some great wrestlers happened to hold the title, but that's about it.

Spot on. Honky Tonk Man kills the argument of IC being a stepping stone. I will argue though that his title reign was a great troll job. It was so frustrating seeing him continue to carry the belt. He was never over as a competent competitor but drove people crazy that he walked away with the belt for what felt like five years. Great heel who realistically never seemed like he should be more than a comedy jobber.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Great minds. Me, on NeoGAF:

I think people overestimate the prestige of the intercontinental title. What's the intercontinental title now? An essentially meaningless midcard belt, the holder of which will often have a pretty decent match. Such has it always been.

The IC title used to mean "this guy is the next guy up". Macho Man, Ultimate Warrior, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, and Carlito.

Thing is - and you may have been lampshading this with the whole Carlito comment and I'm just being oblivious - it has also been held by a whole bunch of guys who never went on to the main event in that time period: Razor Ramon (should have, never did), Ahmed Johnson, Jeff Jarrett (lol), Goldust, Marc Mero, Owen Hart, The Godfather, The Honky Tonk Man, Marty Jannetty, Road Dogg... etc. etc. Talanted men, some had very famous reigns and some brilliant matches, but not one won the world title in the WWF.

Saying "look at all the world champions who held the intercontinental title" is essentially the same as saying "look at all the main eventers who were once midcarders." Well, duh.

 

[Tastycles]

What happens if you look at past world champions and see if they ever had the IC Title?

So what we're going to do is look at all the WWE and World Heavyweight Champions and see what percentage of them previously held other titles. For the interest of fairness, I will only include the champions since the title was inaugurated, and I'm ignoring the period when the IC title was briefly retired, because it didn't really affect the long term.

Intercontinental Title

Since 1979, there have been 36 different new WWE Champions crowned and a further 9 who have won the World Heavyweight Championship. Of those, 20 were Intercontinental Champions before their first reign.

This is a total of 44%

United Stated Title

Since the US title reached WWE in 2001, there have been 13 different new WWE Champions crowned and a further 9 who have won the World Heavyweight Championship. Of those, 5 were United States Champions before their first reign.

This is a total of 23%

European Title

Since the European title debuted in 1997, there have been 18 different new WWE Champions crowned who debuted before it was deactivated and a further 4 who have won the World Heavyweight Championship. Of those, 9 were United States Champions before their first reign.

This is a total of 41%

Hardcore Title

Since the European title debuted in 1998, there have been 17 different new WWE Champions crowned who debuted before it was deactivated and a further 4 who have won the World Heavyweight Championship. Of those, 7 were United States Champions before their first reign.

This is a total of 33%

So a slight advantage for IC, but barely when compared to the European title.

 

[braveh]

Excuse me, did you Watch the morning slam special on the IC-title?

 

[nightmare]

I always thought it was more of a reward for those Vince thought was ready to be featured more, but was not quite sure if they were ready to hold the major belt. You either blew it in his eyes and stayed in mid card limbo, or you excelled and went somewhere up the card eventually.


This same thing can be said for any belt that is not the WWE\WHC title. It is how it works in almost every promotion. Guys who are good, but not quite there. Problem is with the argument most have, they just see the results of a few guys who made it to the top and ignore the other dozens of guys who went nowhere. When the numbers are in black and white- its hard to argue reality.

 

[King Patrick Star]

Great thread. Great research. Great work. Great idea.

I do, however, think when someone says, “The IC Title used to be a stepping stone to the WWE title", what they mean is the Intercontinental Title used to be the number 2 Championship Title in the WWE, up until Spring 2001. That would be when the WWF and WCW / ECW became the World Wrestling Federation Alliance. I don’t think people literally mean, “Step 1, win the WWE World Tag Team Titles. Step 2, win the Intercontinental Title. Step 3, win the WWE Title.” I agree with both lines of thought.

 

[Bernkastel]

The most overwanked wrestler on the site in terms of popularity, Undertaker, never won the IC title. If he did it wouldn't either affect his career, or even elevate his career as a whole. Even if he won it back in the early 90's it likely would have meant squat. Umaga was an IC champion... but was billed as a viable threat to the WWE champion before he even won it. If anything it was a step down.

 

[braveh]

The most overwanked wrestler on the site in terms of popularity, Undertaker, never won the IC title. If he did it wouldn't either affect his career, or even elevate his career as a whole. Even if he won it back in the early 90's it likely would have meant squat. Umaga was an IC champion... but was billed as a viable threat to the WWE champion before he even won it. If anything it was a step down.

But wasn't Umaga given a good run with squash matches Before that?...he had that infamous match against Sabu (the murder match which I don't understand why it's so infamous)

....and Umaga went on to lose the title to Jeff Hardy who would go on to have two incredible years in the WWE.

 

[Coco]

The most overwanked wrestler on the site in terms of popularity, Undertaker, never won the IC title.

Who do you reckon the most overwanked wrestler on the site is in terms of actual wanking?

Based on the way Gelgarin feels about Lou Thesz, I suspect the old-timer is certainly in the discussion.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Serious answer, AJ Lee.

Less serious answer, Jinder Mahal.