Something We Need to See More of in Wrestling

[klunderbunker]

For those of you that watched Raw last night, you saw Miz successfully defend his US Title against Mark Henry. That's hardly news though. What I saw in this match that interested me the most was the ending: Henry was going for the World's Strongest Slam and Miz countered into a somewhat spinning DDT for the pin. This was intriguing to me because of a few reasons, but I'm only going to focus on one:

It was a move that wasn't Miz's finisher.

How many times can you think of that a match ended clean (as in no interference or major cheating) with something other than a finisher, a signature move, a rollup or a screwjob of some kind? It happens so rarely anymore that it's hurt the product a bit. I've been reviewing Royal Rumble 2004 recently and one of the main matches is Shawn vs. HHH for the title. The problem is that there's no way that the match is going to end early at all. Also, there's going to be a ton of Pedigree attempts or Sweet Chin Music attempts. Why does a match always have to end that way? I know that finishers are supposed to finish a match, but do they always have to? What's wrong with Cena hitting say a powerslam and hooking the leg for a quick pin? It keeps you watching more often because you don't know when the match is going to end and it makes a finisher look more impressive when it doesn't always hit. Staying on Cena here for a second, think of the Big Show matches. He almost always hits a massive FU for the pin. That's impressive, but if he only did it once in awhile to Show, wouldn't it be a cooler sight? There is more than one way to win a match and Miz proved it last night. Use finishers somewhat less often. It will freshen a lot of matches and characters up.

 

[Daedalus]

I've taken notice that WWE is doing two things lately that it good for it's product:

-Letting heels get clean wins
-Not all matches end with a wrestler's finisher

The last couple years I have been upset that WWE pretty much was only letting heels win by cheating or outside interference. That has seem to stop in the last couple months. It's something that is needed and makes a heel legit in the fan's eyes. I hope WWE follows through and keeps this practice in place. There's nothing wrong with heels winning by cheating or outside interference but when that's the only way they win it really hurts a wrestler and makes for a dull predictable product.

I've noticed a few matches ending with wrestlers not using their finishers which I like. It once again takes away that predictable feeling. One thing that I hate and many others seem to hate also is when the matches feel too scripted. I hope WWE continues to make changes to make things feel less scripted. It would be nice to see wrestlers given more freedom to improvise during matches and promos. Hopefully Vince will finally bring back that element to WWE. It's a positive that can help talent get over especially when the writing team doesn't seem to know what it's doing, continues to recycle old ideas over relentlessly, and gives them lame dialogue.

 

[Blade]

Yes! You are absolutely spot on KB.

When you're watching Japanese wrestling, you're truly on the edge of your seat because you know they don't use finishers as much over there, the match could end at any time after any move. It just makes matches better. On the really important matches, then the wrestlers will pull out their msot devastating moves as a finisher.

American wrestling has gotten into a weird groove where wrestlers do their finishers at the end of every wrestling match that ends in pinfall or submission. Then on the more important matches, wrestlers kick out of each other's finishers and then deliver them once or sometimes even twice more.

Finishers just need to be respected as devastating moves more often. Overuse of finishing moves is how they become just regular moves. That's what happend to the DDT, the piledriver etc... So I agree completely with KB. We should believe that finishers are only used as a last option to put away opponents.

 

[Dagger Dias]

I actually disagree. just got through discussing parts of my reason for why in a different thread. The fans mark out for the Finishers that they like. Finishers are relied on so much for this reason. I think that if they were used less then it would make the ending of the match look worse. You guys will probably not agree with me there, but I like when Finishers are relied on because a Finisher is a wrestler's "special move" in many cases, and he should use it often to give his fans a cool moment to remember.... especially when it results in a victory in a title match.

 

[Schoolboy-Chris]

I actually disagree. just got through discussing parts of my reason for why in a different thread. The fans mark out for the Finishers that they like. Finishers are relied on so much for this reason. I think that if they were used less then it would make the ending of the match look worse. You guys will probably not agree with me there, but I like when Finishers are relied on because a Finisher is a wrestler's "special move" in many cases, and he should use it often to give his fans a cool moment to remember.... especially when it results in a victory in a title match.

Yes I made a similar thread, though in a much broader sense. I too am a fan of finishing moves but just feel that overexposure to them has in some ways made other moves superfluous. A wrestler should definitely have a finishing move as I feel this is an integral part of their success, but using this in moderation could make it more effective in the long run. It is nice to have variety in matches, and emphasis on a larger variety of moves could be exactly what wrestling needs at the moment. I do not know if this is a realistic option without changing the layout of matches on the whole however, as this is pretty firmly ingrained in the mind of the average wrestling fan. If it is possible I would like the moves used to become more varied, but I accept that this could be a gradual process rather than something achieved overnight.

 

[CardiffCam]

I did mention this precise incident in another thread, and I think it is a good thing, but sometimes it can make a match finish feel cheap. See Angle - Wolfe match from Turning Point- Wolfe fought through the ankle lock, he kicked out of the angle slam, Angle kicked out of the lariat, angle kicked out of the tower of london etc., then Wolfe goes down in a matter of a second to some armbar choke thats never been seen before. Admittedly it made sense, since the idea was Wolfe had scouted Angle and knew a counter to everything Angle had, but then Angle pulled something out of his sleeve, but still... it didn't feel right. I think it can work, as long as its a nice looking move. When Angle locked it on Wolfe, I had no idea what it was, and Wolfe tapped out so quickly I couldn't see it properly. Whereas the Miz hit an impactful, powerful DDT on Mark Henry and theoretically being dropped on his head with his own weight behind him would hurt a behemoth like Mark Henry a lot more than someone like Evan Bourne. So in the end, non-finishers are fine, as long as they make sense and they look good. No-ones gonna believe Primo pinning Shawn Michaels with a botched clothesline, sorry.

EDIT- Another thing that comes to mind is AJ beating Sting at BFG. Though he might have just lost balance and went for a splash instead of a 450, it felt like it wasn't enough. This was Sting passing the torch, this was AJ's big career-defining win, and- he wins with a springboard splash? Meh.

 

[stingerfan]

One of the big things that everyone is not mentioning that is not really ever shown anymore (unless you get a ppv) is actual wretling.

Every match is a repeat of a five to ten minute match and most of the time it is a basic squash match. Not saying that sqash matches are bad. But i remember when i could a good 15 to 20 minute match with chris benoit, sting, hell even scott hall.

Now we have to sit and watch a five minute main event when we know whats going to happen, supercena!!! It wasnt that long ago when undertaker and kane were pulling out an average 15 minute bout in the main events. A 58 yr old ric flair was pulling out 20 minute matches with brock lesner, and it was a good match all the way through. AN average booker t and benoit match was 15 minutes

COME ON!!!

 

[burnout4200]

I fully realized how bad Ted Dibase Jr's record was when I had no clue what he used for a finishing move. If he actually won a few matches at that point then there was no way I wouldn't know his finisher. In that regard this problem has gotten to the point where it can hurt the credibility of a wrestler.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Yes I made a similar thread, though in a much broader sense. I too am a fan of finishing moves but just feel that overexposure to them has in some ways made other moves superfluous. A wrestler should definitely have a finishing move as I feel this is an integral part of their success, but using this in moderation could make it more effective in the long run. It is nice to have variety in matches, and emphasis on a larger variety of moves could be exactly what wrestling needs at the moment. I do not know if this is a realistic option without changing the layout of matches on the whole however, as this is pretty firmly ingrained in the mind of the average wrestling fan. If it is possible I would like the moves used to become more varied, but I accept that this could be a gradual process rather than something achieved overnight.

Yeah, that makes sense. Using them in moderation could be helpful in the sense that it gives more variety to what happens in the match, and the finisher could then still be used to end the match. See, I might have misunderstood the argument and thought it was that there should be matches where finishers aren't even used. If a fan pays to go watch the show then they should be able to see their favorite wrestler do their signature move. What should be done is have less kickouts from finishers; because that way there is more variety like you guys want, and the fans that want to see the finishers still get a cool moment to mark out to when a finisher takes out the opponent without them kicking out even once.

 

[theviolentmessiah]

Yeah, I've always thought this was one of the worse things in WWE. Bryan Danielson, Christopher Daniels and CM Punk immediatly caught my attention in ROH by not finishing always with their signature moves. Danielson even taps Punk out with an abdominal stretch. CM Punk in particular had a devastating finisher in Pepsi Plunge and yet rarely finished matches with it unless it was a special occasion which meant when he pulled it out the crowd went mad.