Something about Sting that has always puzzled me...

[Hollywood Naitch]

Now, I am not about to bash Sting. I do think he is a true legend of the business, and I am desperate to see if he really is going to appear in the WWE in the near future, but there always has been one thing that struck me as a bit strange.

His finishing manouvres.

Scorpian Death Lock

This is the Sharpshooter, just with a different name. It always surprised me that a top star in both WWE and WCW used exactly the same finishing move, and never considered altering it to be unique. Does anyone know who used this move as a finisher first? Its a great submission move but when Bret ended up in WCW both guys had the same move as a match ender.

Scorpian Death Drop

Really irritates me that the names of these 2 moves are so similar! The Death Drop is just a reverse DDT, a very unpainful looking move. How did this get over as a legitimate finisher, and stay over to this day. All I can think of is that finishers back in the day were not as spectacular looking- see Hogans leg drop, Warriors Splash for examples of this. Does noone else think that Sting should have perhaps updated his finishers in the last few years?

Also, the Stinger Splash is just a really basic running splash in a corner, Sting doesnt do it in a unique way, its just the normal splash.

What are your thoughts?

 

[AUSSIE_pride92]

I've always wondered about these exact things, most specifically the scorpian death drop.. as you said the moves were not as spectacular back then.. but even for back then it is pretty lackluster

 

[Slyfox696]

1) Contrary to popular belief, The Scorpion Death Lock and the Sharpshooter, are NOT the same move.

2)I don't see how being slammed on the back of your head doesn't look painful. That's a move that could literally injure someone seriously. Just look at all the concussions that happen in the NFL when people get slammed on the back of their head. As far as the name goes, it's similar to the Death Lock because he's...Sting. His whole schtick is about a scorpion.

3) Please explain to me how a 260 pound man flying at you full force when you are propped against an unmoving back support would not hurt.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

1) Contrary to popular belief, The Scorpion Death Lock and the Sharpshooter, are NOT the same move.

If that is the case, I stand corrected. I have never noticed a difference between the two, they look identical to me!

2)I don't see how being slammed on the back of your head doesn't look painful. That's a move that could literally injure someone seriously. Just look at all the concussions that happen in the NFL when people get slammed on the back of their head. As far as the name goes, it's similar to the Death Lock because he's...Sting. His whole schtick is about a scorpion.

In everyday life it would, but in wrestling people take suplexes from the top rope, get dropped on their head, take multiple punches to the face, all of which should technically be devastating, but the match continues. I just have never thought the SDD looks like a legitimate finishing move, it doesn't look anything special. Not to mention variations of it are used by other wrestlers as regular moves- Christian being one. For a superstar such as Sting, I would have expected a more memorable finishing move like a Pedigree, a Jackhammer or a Stunner.

Also, I get WHY the move has the name is has, it's just that the names are so similar, its just one of things that everybody has where something meaningless just irritates you a bit.

3) Please explain to me how a 260 pound man flying at you full force when you are propped against an unmoving back support would not hurt.

Oh it would hurt, but how many other wrestlers have running splashes in the corner. Its a decent enough move, but when it is performed by Sting, it is supposed to be devastating, compared to others where it is just a regular move. Suspension of disbelief I guess.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm on my iPhone so I can't quote and post like normal, but I'll try to respond.

The two moves are applied differently and actually hurt in different ways. Pay particular attention to how the legs are grapevined. With Hart, you have the knee over the top of the other ankle. This adds additional torque on the knee, and really is more devastating. With the Death Lock, the ankles of the opponent are mashed together, meaning the focus of the move is just on the back.

As far as both the Death Drop and Splash go, you are confusing flash with damage, a common mistake amongst today's wrestling audience. It used to not matter how flashy the move was, just how effective it was. A good example is Punks GTS. All it really is is a knee to the face. That's devastating, but ifnhe were to grab the opponents head and shove his knee to their face, it wouldn't seem as flashy, even though it would probably hurt more.

Don't confuse flash with damage.

 

[byrnside]

Well..

[YOUTUBE]Mldb5SNISOM[/YOUTUBE]


vs.


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The only difference I can see is Bret leads with his left leg and Sting with his right. I think a big part of it is that WCW tried to copy a lot of what the WWF did and vice versa. But I'm actually thinking Sting used it first since Bret was a tag wrestler while Sting was a singles wrestler.

As for the Scorpion Death Drop, my guess is it was just easier to use during the nWo era. Think about it, if you're gonna drop in from the cieling to attack a group of large men, you're not gonna have a lot of time to put the Scorpion Death Lock on 15 seperate guys. The Death Drop was a good way to be quick and lethal.

The Stinger Splash is just classic. It was a good way to get the crowd riled up and a good set up for the Death Lock. Still relevant today just like Hogan still uses the Leg Drop.

 

[Post]

In Bret's book he credits Sting w/ using the Scorpion Death Lock/Sharp Shooter first.

The death drop would have been more believable as a finisher if WCW would have made it a Sting exclusive move. I can remember other WCW wrestlers using the move in the course of a match and it didn't result in a finish.

 

[rokuma]

The biggest difference in the Deathlock and Sharpshooter is Sting didn't go down as far as Hart did (in the old days)....


The thing about the Death Drop was when he was coming out of the crowd and attacking people, he needed a move to incapacitate them and generally from behind during the early "crow" days. The inverted DDT worked and I think he just kept it. He used to grab them by the hair and say something and then drop them to the mat, making it look slightly more intimidating.

And who doesn't get riled up seeing the Stinger splash?

 

[byrnside]

The thing about the Death Drop was when he was coming out of the crowd and attacking people, he needed a move to incapacitate them and generally from behind during the early "crow" days. The inverted DDT worked and I think he just kept it. He used to grab them by the hair and say something and then drop them to the mat, making it look slightly more intimidating.

And who doesn't get riled up seeing the Stinger splash?

Couldn't have said it better myself.. Oh, wait, I did.

One thing I wanted to add was that my biggest problem with the Scorpion Death Drop was Henry freakin' Godwinn used it before Sting did. Granted it's just an inverted DDT, but that always bothered me. Like I said, Sting started using it probably because he needed something quick and devastating and it stuck. I feel like anymore it's really more of a "regularly used" move.

 

[giez]

being a long time sting fan I think I can help

1) sting used the death lock before brett used the the sharpshooter.
2) they are basiclly the same hold. they both work the knee and back. (in one of the dvd's I have sting talked about using the death lock and says about how it effects the legs and back)
3) stinger splash. watch the pre-crow years. sting was one the best jumpers in wrestling. (plus watch some old war games matchs where he would jump over the top rope in one ring to the other ring without touching the ropes.) but age has caught up with him now so it doesnt look as good.
4) the death drop was a quick finisher he use to help fight the nWo off like someelse said.

hope this helps

 

[Poop Master Flex]

One thing I'll say right off the bat is that I'm almost 100% sure that Sting was using the Scorpion Death Lock before Bret Hart used the Sharpshooter and the move was always initially called the Scorpion Death Lock, Bret just changed the name (and has even admitted in interviews that the Sharpshooter is just the scorpion death lock with a different name).

Anyways both moves do plenty of damage and can end a match. The Scorpion death drop for example isn't a very flashy move, but if all of your opponents weight and your weight are dropped straight on the back of your head, you aren't getting up for the 3 count 99% of the time. Wrestling is supposed to be believable, well I would say getting dropped on the back of your head for a 3 count is plenty believable.

With the Scorpion Death Lock, that's another move that is plenty believable as it puts great pressure on your back, knees and ankles, eventually that pain can become too much to bear to where you have to just tap out and fight another day. Sting's SDL didn't look as painful as Bret's sharpshooter, but I never questioned that it couldn't put someone away (especially if that person has bad knees or a bad back).

The Stinger splash was always more of a setup move than a finisher so that works too, maybe not enough to beat you, but certainly enough to set you up your opponent for the kill.

All 3 weren't overly flashy, but its irrelevant, a piledriver ain't that flashy but I guarantee it could put anyone away for the 3 count. It's not about the flashiness, its about the overall effectiveness of the move.

 

[neildittmar]

Much like any successful finisher in pro-wrestling, the true art is in the buildup and execution. I always regarded Stings scorpion death lock much more than Harts sharpshooter... not because Sting began using the move first, but because in most cases the motions he used in applying it, as well as subtle things like facial expressions seemed to put it over more. Additionally, it was often used on guys like Ric Flair, who could sell like few others could.

As for the death drop, once again it's the "theatrics" that essentially make the move. Rock's finisher was essentially the same elbow drop that had been a wrestling staple for literally decades. It was Rocks buildup and execution of the move that brought crowds to their feet and often signaled the end of the match. Same goes for the DDT and Jake Roberts in later years, or Ultimate Warrior and his gorilla press/splash combination.

Sting had transitioned into a dark and brooding character by the time he began using the scorpion death drop. He needed a much edgier move to, as has already been stated, quickly incapacitate an opponent. From the back of the hair pull into the move, to the dark stare (and occasional monologue) Sting would often give beforehand, to the sudden thrust of power to finish the blow, it put the move on a different level than a typical inverted DDT.

Though I won't get into as much "theater" as the other two moves, the Stinger splash was prepared, executed, and often sold by opponents in exactly the same way.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

I think SlyFox has already addressed the death-lock situation enough, if it is indeed the case the two moves aren't identical. But for me I wouldn't see how much of a problem it would be to have two guys (albeit mega-stars) in the same company using the same finishing manoeuvre, or at least in this case as it was complete coincidence as Bret came from another company and just happened to bring the sharpshooter with him. I mean we had sweet chin music and the nitro blast at the same time, also if you look at the finishers of david otunga, ezekiel jackson and vladimir kozlov...all very similar. I think people would just respect that they both acquired their finishers in different ways and have both been using them for some time, as long as you haven't got a group of guys all doing the same move it shouldn't be much of a problem.

As for the death drop, well I can see what your saying with regards to clotheslines and it's not like the only time they get a head-bump in the match. But consider this. The arm of sting is hooked around the head, as the opponent falls so does sting and his weight and falling force (a lot of which is transferred to the arms) is actually pushing the head down as it falls. Its the same difference between a guy falling flat onto his face and DDT for example, the extra driving force is why people buy it as a finisher. Besides it's be no means the weakest finisher since then, the AA, Edge's spear, and the 619/splash combo are all moves I would consider to be weaker looking and are all used by top flight stars also. It's also a very gimmicky move. When the NWO v Sting saga was in full throttle having him pull back an imposter sing's head and hold it there helpless watching Hogan and the rest of the guys whilst the man stood back arched helpless as long as Sting wanted him to is a very cool set up for the move.

This one I buy you on, we see guys like Mark Henry and Big Show turn-buckle splash guys, they don't jump (obviously partly because they can't) but the effect is much similar and one of those guys moving towards you is like getting hit by a car. Yet the effect it has is pretty similar to Sting's. Thankfully it was only ever used as a signature move because it would have made a horrible finisher.

 

[burnout4200]

To me what made The Scorpion Death Drop such a great move was the fact that he'd sneak up behind people, grab them by the hair, pull their head back, and look down at them before he did it. There was always a great look of fear on the opponents face like they knew they were screwed. The move had an "Oh shit, it's Sting" quality to it. Godwin may have done a reverse DDT, but it was nowhere near as theatrical as Sting's.

If The Stinger Splash is so basic then why hasn't anyone else done it as good as Sting? I think Shelton Benjamin started using it. I may be confusing him with someone else of course. Just read my quote. Shelton is athletic and can jump, but he still couldn't do it as well as Sting who was a college basketball player before entering wrestling.

Bret Hart will always get credit for using the move first even though Sting did. WWE had a larger audience up until The NWO. When you see one person use a move more or first then you automatically assume they started it.

 

[cpac4]

I dont know what the hell any of YOU are talking about. I think the scorpion deathdrop is pretty much the coolest finisher EVER. I always thought it was so bad ass, how he would come up from behind dudes, grab em' by the hair and stare at em' for a bit like "uh oh bitch...your about to die!". Then pretty much kill them. Always looked painful to me!!!

 

[Funkydr79]

I think the scorpion death lock and death drop conversations have been effectively beaten to death here.

I wanted to agree with one of the earlier posters about the stinger splash:

1) as previous people have said it's a set-up move and not a finisher
2) Throughout the late 80's and early 90's it was ESPECIALLY rare to see someone sting's size as a top face in the business. His vertical leap was something that made him stand out of the crowd. He would begin his leap for the splash at about halfway across the ring and would fly into his opponents.
3) It was common-place during this time period to name moved that superstars did particularly well (regardless of whether they were a finisher or not). Whenever Rick Steiner did a clothesline they would refer to it as a "Steiner-line." It wasn't a different move, it was just that meant to signify that this particular superstar gets even more effectiveness out of the move than others.

 

[Tattooed Jesus]

The biggest difference in the Deathlock and Sharpshooter is Sting didn't go down as far as Hart did (in the old days)....


The thing about the Death Drop was when he was coming out of the crowd and attacking people, he needed a move to incapacitate them and generally from behind during the early "crow" days. The inverted DDT worked and I think he just kept it. He used to grab them by the hair and say something and then drop them to the mat, making it look slightly more intimidating.

And who doesn't get riled up seeing the Stinger splash?

Exactly!

The Scorpion Death Drop didn't come into play until he started the "Crow" gimmick and it was made cool because of the way he used it not just because of the move. He would sneak up behind his opponent and grab their hair or wrap the bat around their neck and pull them down into the Death Drop. The way Sting used it added to the mystique of his Crow gimmick, thus making it a cool finishing move.

As stated even Bret Hart agrees that the SDL came about before the SS, but there are slight differences in the way both guys use the hold, either way still one of the best submission finishers in all of wrestling.

I believe the Stinger Splash was always more of just a set up move for a finisher and not ever one of his actual finishing moves. Early in his career he did a top rope body splash for his finisher IIRC.

The thing that I always though that was really cool about Sting was that he was basically a punch and kick power wrestler but his finisher's were never the typical power wrestler finishers.

 

[Chess]

In my opinion a top wrestler should have a submission finisher and a power move. Sting has both of these. As many before have pointed out the Scorpion Death Lock is different than the sharpshooter although only slightly. How about the boston crab, the Camel Clutch, these are similar to.

I agree that the Scorpion Death Drop is not the greatest finisher, however it is better than the Skull crushing finale, the mic check and the stroke which are all similar.

A splash is a splash and just a set up move so who cares.

I have more issues with wrestlers stealing moves, like Orton using the Angle slam (shame on you), Swagger using the ankle lock. How many people use the damn backstabber too

 

[TCBT]

I have more issues with wrestlers stealing moves, like Orton using the Angle slam (shame on you), Swagger using the ankle lock. How many people use the damn backstabber too

Guys, moves have been "stolen" for years and years now, even before the Attitude Era, the Rock n' Wrestling Era, and the WWWF Era. It's always been that way. Some people see it as an homage. Some see it as theft. I don't care as long as I'm entertained.

As for Sting's moves, remember one thing: he comes from old-school wrestling. Back then, there was no F5, no Jackhammers, no Attitude Adjustments, no crazy moves... He comes from the time when a Leg Drop, an Elbow Drop, a regular DDT, a vertical suplex, could knock an opponent out for the three-count. No flashiness. Just an effective move that wrestlers are always remembered by.

 

[RicSpade]

In all fairness Ronnie Garvin used the Scorpion Deathlock and Sharpshooter before Sting and Hart. Look back to the submission match between him and Greg Valentine. but in all fairness to the two moves Tony back when bret and sting faced each other at Havoc he called them virtually the same move. However the major difference is the same thing with the Liontamer and the Walls of Jericho, and that was the technique Jericho when he used it in WCW had a slight bend and a knee on the head or the back, and now its a deeper bend to almost a Boston Crab.

Stings version puts the leg deeper in the knee and sits on the back more.
Brets version while looser uses his hand to grab the other knee to use as leverage to sit back on it.

The Scorpion Death Drop is actually an effective move its back to a post I wrote about how moves today have to be flashy to look effective remember when a power punch or a knee lift or even a body slam won a match it just isn't that way before.

And finally with the Stinger Splash that was a signature move used by Sting for over 2 decades now. Once Sting started off as his blond surfer gimmick after the blade warriors it was kind of a more of a pump up get the crowd going maneuver, but after using it for so long its kind of a staple for your moves. If you want a good example HBKs finisher was the back suplex when he started his heel turn and the crescent kick was his signature move but as time progressed they expected the sweet chin music and the rest was history and now its one of the most known moves in wrestling history.

 

[jrocko1981]

In my opinion a top wrestler should have a submission finisher and a power move. Sting has both of these. As many before have pointed out the Scorpion Death Lock is different than the sharpshooter although only slightly. How about the boston crab, the Camel Clutch, these are similar to.

I agree that the Scorpion Death Drop is not the greatest finisher, however it is better than the Skull crushing finale, the mic check and the stroke which are all similar.

A splash is a splash and just a set up move so who cares.

I have more issues with wrestlers stealing moves, like Orton using the Angle slam (shame on you), Swagger using the ankle lock. How many people use the damn backstabber too

How are the BOSTON CRAB & the CAMEL CLUTCH Similar???? Its almost impossible to find moves that other wrestlers haven't done If in your opinion Randy shouldn't use the Angle Slam than Kurt(& by extension Swagger) should not use the Ankle lock because Ken Shamrock used it in WWE First. The key to using another move is to try and put a variation(s) on it. For example The RKO & Diamond Cutter are Similar but Orton & DDP put there own spins on it. Also one my all time favorite submissions was Chris Jericho's Liontamer in WCW which was an elevated variation of the Wall of Jericho/Boston Crab and looked like it hurt like hell. When I saw it I didn't think oh that's just a boston crab it was BETTER than a BC/WOJ which were exactly the same. I always wonder why he stopped using it.

 

[Awesomesauceinacup]

lol...the scorpion death lock and the camel clutch is the same? Do you even watch wrestling?

Anyway.....I always sort of figured that the Death Drop was more of a set up finisher for the Death Lock. He would drop the dude on his head and then apply the move (id assume, i was a prissy wwe fanboy when I was a kid so WCW "sucked" in my younger opinion ) Sort of how Jeff Hardy would hit the twist of fate and then climb the rope for the swanton.

 

[AJM]

Sting used it first. The move was brought back from Japan by Steve "Dr. Death" Williams (RIP) and he showed to Sting to use & said he could use it as his finisher. This was in 88/89. At that time Bret was still tagging with the Anvil and not using it. So Bret ripped Sting of this maneuver.

 

[Slyfox696]

Seems to be some factual inaccuracy in this thread.

The Scorpion Death Lock was invented by Riki Choshu. If I remember correctly, Bret Hart was taught the move by Konnan, who learned it in Japan. I believe Hart modified it, and it became the Sharpshooter. I've already pointed out the difference between the two moves, if you all are not willing to learn, then that's on you. But they are different. If you have a little brother or a gullible friend willing to let you experiment, then you can do the move on them, and see firsthand the difference in the way the move is applied.


As far as the Scorpion Death Drop goes, I don't see what the problem is with it. It's a highly effective move, and would hurt like hell. How anyone can not see what pain it would cause is beyond me.

Sting used it first. The move was brought back from Japan by Steve "Dr. Death" Williams (RIP) and he showed to Sting to use & said he could use it as his finisher. This was in 88/89. At that time Bret was still tagging with the Anvil and not using it. So Bret ripped Sting of this maneuver.

Pretty certain it was Konnan, not Steve Williams. And Bret didn't rip the move off of Sting, he ripped the move off of Konnan, who got it from Japan.

 

[MancMark]

The fact that the 2 finishers have similar names is fairly irrelevant. Of course they have similar names, that's the point. One is a lock, the other is a drop. That's the gimmick.

I don't really mind who used the move first. There's been plenty of guys down the years who have similar finishing moves. Chokeslams, powerbombs etc. I prefer the way Sting does it because of the way he sells it. The facial expressions, the arm raised aloft to encourage the crowd, and then the sudden sit down. When he clamps it on, it looks like he's putting all of his energy into it.

The Scorpion Death Drop is an interesting one. It's not the flashiest of moves and some people use it as just a basic move. I think it works for Sting because of the way he does it. The grab of the hair, the look into the eyes, and then the sudden plunge. He makes it look like it's going to fucking kill you and if you do that then any move is going to look good.

As for the Stinger Splash, it's just a good signature move. He used to get some serious elevation on it years ago. Sometimes he used to nearly completely overshoot out of the ring. And the wrestling world was a lot simpler when he started using that move, so it got over pretty big.