What is this obsession with pinfall victories? A win is a fucking win. Period.
Pinfalls equal a definitive win. Whereas a DQ or countout tends to make one look weak. Self explanatory enough, isn't it?
It absolutely is not irrelevant. Taker was a monster heel, like Kane, Show when he plays that role, Sheamus was, or like Henry is now. They don't have to result to under handed tactics because they're big bullys who can dominate you. Christian doesn't have those resources, he has to be crafty. He's in the whiny bitch heel category with guys like Miz, Jericho, and Ric Flair.
Actually, size is pretty irrelevant when it comes to actual skill, merit, and/or talent. Talent is not limited to those who are big men. And I'm not advocating that Christian be pushed as a monster or badass heel. What I am advocating is that Christian can cheat and win via pinfall. It doesn't have to be a clean pinfall, which you seem to again misunderstand me on. Heels cheat and I love that. I do agree Christian needs to remain heelish and crafty. The difference with Christian and "Miz, Jericho, and Ric Flair" is that while each guy was a "whiny bitch heel" as like Christian, those guys actually scored much needed pinfalls. And no, not clean ones. Ya know, there is a such thing as creative, crafty, heelish, dirty pinfalls. You can manage to do all of that and remain a strong heel while making the face look like a million bucks. Just look at Christian's heel run in TNA. He made his opponents look amazing in great matches while still getting crafty wins and seemingly skating by with PINFALLS.
Uh, what? Yes they most certainly did. Sure, they beat the guys they were supposed to beat. But they ALWAYS cheated to win against the top faces. Always.
Once again, what we have is basic failure to grasp concepts. Yes, heels do cheat to win. But, they also managed crafty victories and even *GASP* PINFALLS. While you may not view that as an important part of winning, it is essential to making the heel a credible threat to the face. Christian doesn't have to win via pinfall every match. But, having him win with every other method but pinning is very cheap and effortless. Which was my base point that you either misunderstood or outright ignored.
HE HAS BEATEN RANDY ORTON. Whether it was by pinfall or not, he still won the fucking match!
A win is a win. Is that what you're saying? Because that's the damnest logic I've ever seen in correlation to wrestling. Would other top heels in history have thrived in their primes if they'd been booked the way Christian has been? No. Because while heels do cheat to win, they don't need to always look like they are trying to surmount impossible odds. A pinfall means alot more to winning as does submission. DQs and countouts are usually done by heels too, but, not in every match they compete in. Which is my main complaint as it relates to Christian.
God damnit. Heels cheat to win. It's supposed to be cheap.
Starting to repeat the same things are we? No matter how many times you say it, heels don't always have to narrowly skate with fluke victories or in Christian's case, ZERO ONE ON ONE pinfalls against Orton. Seems to be a simple enough concept, yet, you repeat the same denial and don't get it.
Why? Does his pin not count because it's not a one on one match. Good God this is tedious.
One point we agree on. Although at this point I'm simply stating my view and not endorsing it as the only side of the debate. Unlike you, I'm not arrogant enough to believe my view is the only relevant or right one. I know people will view it how they want and I'm not trying to change it. If it's too tedious, why bother? I'm looking to intelligently discuss and not name call, which is what is setting us apart on this topic.
I don't see how I'm in denial. You've admitted several times that he's in a better spot on the card than he ever was before, you just seem to have an issue with the booking even though it's the classic method of booking that's been going on since for-fucking-ever.
You're right, this is getting tedious
Funny, if this is the classic heel method of booking that's "been going on since for-fucking ever", why is Christian the only one in recent memory who was won a World Title via DQ? For that matter, why is Christian one of the very few who haven't garnered many pinfalls since his turn?
I like to swear. Get the fuck over it.
That much is obvious. Although there's not much point in it besides doing it for the sake of doing it. Especially when you use it to try and emphasize something definitively that isn't fact. It's opinion. As what I'm posting is mine.
Christian managed to keep the feud going even though he lost several times. He kept goading Orton into giving him another shot even though he didn't deserve it. Classic heel booking.
Does anything register with you? I'm not disputing that heels cheat. That's the method of getting heat and every wrestling fan knows it. You know, it is possible to be a strong heel character, get pinfalls definitively, and still resort to cheating all at the same time, right? Christian doesn't have to pin his opponent every single time, but, you've gotta win undisputably to have any kind of credibility. He can cheat to achieve that by distraction, interference, or whatever other means are neccessary to win. That's the classic heel booking. Only Christian has gotten the feud where he got no pins against Orton. Kinda one sided, don't ya think?
Zeke was the Intercontinental Champion and Christian went over him clean. What other big name could he have went over?
When you think big stars and the best of WWE, you don't think Ezekiel Jackson. He was a paper champion who isn't even in Christian's league and most fans recognize that. I wrongly assumed you'd know that and I guess you didn't. What other big name could he have went over? Let's see? Orton, Sheamus, or any other main event calibur talent. Big Zeke is pretty much a joke who was only IC Champ because WWE is short on talent.
He's a 2 time World Champion, one of which he won from Orton. Fucking Christ.
Nice. Good to see you've clearly mastered the art of debate
Read the fucking post in it's entirety you fucking goof.
Name calling again? Nice to see you don't fall into that as a deflection from your awesome debate skills
First of all, I said what has he done to show he deserves to STAY in the main event? That answer is fucking nothing. I don't care how long you've been wrestling, it's not a charity, it's a business.
Wow, wrestling is a business? Alert the presses!!!! One could argue just as well that Christian has worked equally as hard as anyone else on top to warrant remaining in the main event. Obviously, you can't see past whatever dislikes you have against Christian to notice. While you've admitted that you do like Christian, you seem to contradict that with claiming his doesn't deserve to be there. Or has done "fucking nothing" to stay there. This pretty much sums up your argument; ironically taking shots at me while contradicting yourself throughout. Is this a hidden talent of yours? Wait, it's not so hidden!
Second of all, Christian was in the main program on Smackdown for 4-5 months. When has any of the guys you mentioned had that long of a stay as a heel WITHOUT a power source? You understanding yet? Probably not.
Yes, Christian was in the main program on SD for 4-5 months. And in that duration of time, Christian failed to get ONE pinfall[cheating or not
] while Orton won all of his matches definitively and conclusively via pinfall. Again, Christian's pins didn't have to be clean. He could've cheated his ass off throughout and then took advantage of that situation to score the pin. Another well-known heel tactic too, yes?
Jesus Christ dude. Jesus fucking Christ.
I'm not an overly religious guy, but, you've blasphemed enough in this topic to get your own special spot in hell. Nice. Another skill?
Swagger got cheap wins as well as a bunch of losses a champ.
Not disputing that, Einstein. What I am saying is that Swagger cheated to win and got pins. So simple, yet, so complex for others.
Then what's the fucking problem? If you don't think he should be main eventing all the time, why does it matter that he's not in the mix right now? I've already shown you why he'll certainly be back, what's the problem?
You like adding words where they clearly weren't there, don't ya? Let me clarify my position so as to eliminate that possibility in the future: It's not that Christian isn't in the main events. That's not the issue. What is the issue is that Christian was quite possibly the weakest heel in Smackdown history and maybe even WWE history. WWE has never seen Christian as a major star and his booking shows that to be true. That's the problem.
Let's look around, shall we? Orton: Never won a world title as a heel clean. Edge: Same. Triple H: Same. Miz: Same. Hell, even RIC FUCKING FLAIR cheated to win his matches against top guys. This isn't some shitty new method of putting over heels, this is the exact formula that has been in wrestling since the 60's.
I feel I'm repeating myself because you lack the ability to understand my position. Let me clarify it once more for those who want to distort my points or somehow read more into them than what I actually replied with. Will all caps make it sink in? HEELS CHEAT. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I'm not even saying Christian should've pinned Orton cleanly. Far from it. There are all kinds of neat heelish tricks to obtain a pinfall and WWE could've used any one of them to accomplish a much better end. Instead, they took the lamest way and easiest out.
Oh that is an absolute crock of shit. Christian is one of my favorites, I've already said that, and his program with Orton squashed any doubts I've ever had about him being a main eventer. I'm just not so blind a mark that I think he needs to stay there and not go back down the card for a while. I fully welcome his return once it's warranted.
Funny, it seems like you are calling anyone who disagrees with you a mark! Careful, that might catch on with everyone who wishes to disagree without looking at all views of the situation. I'm not marking for Christian. I simply believe his title reigns were less impressive than they should've been for a storyline of that magnitude. They built the turn nicely and then shit all over it by making Christian's wins all seem like freaky flukes. Not the best way to convince the audience that this heel is worthy of being in the same ring with the face[in this case, the Super Viper. And yes, I like his work too. Does that make me a "mark" if you don't like him?]. Every WWE superstar at some point leaves the main events to allow others the opportunity to be there. Christian can still remain relevant if that's what WWE decides to do. However, my point was that in his 4-5 months on top WWE screwed the pooch on his turn by making him look weak at every turn along the way in what should've been an awesome back-and-forth feud.
His size is irrelevant to me. And no excuses, logic. The same logic that has been used in almost every successful main event program for the past 25-30 years.
Once again, you contradict yourself. You claim that other top heels like Taker, Big Show, and Kane could score pinfalls as heels while Christian should not. The only excuse for that is size, which is irrelevant. You flop on that more than a politician at election time. Either Christian can resort to heel tricks to get a pin like the big guy heels or he can't because of size. If you're foolish enough to believe the latter, you don't know wrestling. Because there are alot of small men who all were wildly successful at creatively cheating to win a pinfall or submission. And those same men had relatively balanced amounts of wins & losses with their face opponents. Is that coincidental? Doubtful.
Big Zeke? You're gonna use that as your valid excuse for Christian looking strong? The best of the overrated? That's laughable at best considering Christian needs to actually win over big names to stay on top. Beating the master of the body slam will not earn him hall of fame status anytime soon.