Should The US Have Apologized To Afghan President?

[SavageTaker]

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/world/asia/03afghan.html

If you don't feel like reading the article then I'll give you a quick summary of it. Ten Afghan boys looking for firewood were misidentified as members of the Taliban. So they were shot at by NATO Helicopters and nine of then ten boys died in this incident. The United States Defense Secretary issued an apology to the Afghan president who denied it. This all leads to my question in this thread, should the US have apologized for this incident? Or for any previous/future incidents like this one?

In all honesty, I don't feel we should have issued an apology to the Afghans. Yes, 9 innocent lives were lost but it's not like those troops in the helicopters planned to kill innocent civilians. It was all an unfortunate mistake but like I said, killing innocent people weren't their intentions.

Also, another reason why I feel we shouldn't apologize is because absolutely NO ONE apologizes to us when our troops are shot at and killed. We are fighting a war and mistakes are bound to happen even to the best of the best so there should not be a need to apologize. They've killed tons and tons of our people yet I've never heard or seen of an apology, so if they shouldn't feel the need to then why do we?

What are your thoughts?

 

[HBK-aholic]

The US is not like the Afghan government and doesn't want to be - that's why they issued that apology. There are many different arguments for the 'real' reason this war started, but whichever you want to argue, I sincerely doubt any of those reasons involved 'To kill innocent people'.

I understand you not liking the fact they did apologise but you have to realise that not all Afghans agree with The Taliban and many are just innocent people like you and I. Those innocent people have innocent families who will be mourning the death of their sons/brothers/husbands/fathers. I know if I were in their position, while the pain would be just the same with or without an apology, the anger wouldn't be as huge with them saying 'I'm sorry, we made a mistake' as opposed to completely ignoring the fact they'd killed innocent people and ruined 9 families lives. Doing the latter would go against any values the American government holds, or claims to hold.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Anyone who thinks the US doesn't have to issue an apology needs to check for a soul. Of course you issue one. For fuck's sake (pardon the language in this instance), 9 BOYS lives were lost because we got trigger happy.

If anything, the individuals in the Helicopter(s) had zero right to even OPEN fire, much less do so to the point of making sure they took out the targets. They need discharged for this, to be honest. Why? This is why..

1.) Were these children carrying anything that looked like weapons? Doubtful.

2.) Is it so hard to see from in a Helicopter that you can't idenify someone of innocence to someone of danger? No. If it were hard, then we'd be killing our own men/women in gun fights whenever Helicopters are brought in to help out.

So, clearly those in the Helicopters just saw individuals that weren't in their own uniform, and instead of waiting to see if they were dangerous - they took no chances of being shot down (respectable to a degree, obviously) and opened fire. Still, unless these children looked of adult size/age, and were carrying any type of weapons/weapon-looking objects, then there shouldn't of been any reason to open fire.

So - that's kinda more off-topic about what should happen to those controlling the Helicopter and are truly responsible, but the blunt answer to the thread question - yes, we should apologize because it was openly our fault. In every sense of the understanding.

 

[Minnesota Connection]

If the Afghan government didn't want any part of it, then that is THEIR business.

As for us, our hands have blood and for once, we at least did not lie... There has been a lot of that.

The killing of civilians happens, mistakes happen. At least this one wasn't covered up.

 

[Xemmy]

We shouldn't apologize because it was an accident?

If I walk into your house to deal with some very unpleasent family members, and I accidently break your shit or mistarget and end up kicking the shit out of an innocent family member, the least you'd expect is an apology wouldn't you? Now granted, the apology should have been to the families of those boys, but the idea that there shouldn't have been an apology at all is just silly.

And just because OTHER countries don't apologize for bullshit doesn't mean we should lower to their standard, and pretend we've never done anything wrong.

And, no intentional disrespect to the troops, but if we weren't over there, I doubt very seriously they'd be dying- and I don't think it's the Afghan government's fault that our soldiers have died. If it was then we'd be at war against them. We're not fighting another government- we're fighting in their territory.

 

[falconsault]

Anyone who thinks the US doesn't have to issue an apology needs to check for a soul. Of course you issue one. For fuck's sake (pardon the language in this instance), 9 BOYS lives were lost because we got trigger happy.

If anything, the individuals in the Helicopter(s) had zero right to even OPEN fire, much less do so to the point of making sure they took out the targets. They need discharged for this, to be honest. Why? This is why..

1.) Were these children carrying anything that looked like weapons? Doubtful.

2.) Is it so hard to see from in a Helicopter that you can't idenify someone of innocence to someone of danger? No. If it were hard, then we'd be killing our own men/women in gun fights whenever Helicopters are brought in to help out.

So, clearly those in the Helicopters just saw individuals that weren't in their own uniform, and instead of waiting to see if they were dangerous - they took no chances of being shot down (respectable to a degree, obviously) and opened fire. Still, unless these children looked of adult size/age, and were carrying any type of weapons/weapon-looking objects, then there shouldn't of been any reason to open fire.

So - that's kinda more off-topic about what should happen to those controlling the Helicopter and are truly responsible, but the blunt answer to the thread question - yes, we should apologize because it was openly our fault. In every sense of the understanding.

Are you serious? Those soldier should be discharged? You do realize that they were only following orders don't you? I don't think you realize what actually happens in these cases. They see people in an area that is more than likely known as a place where insurgence hide out, they radio in that they've found someone and it appears that they are carrying weapons which I'm sure that a log or a branch from the air will look like a weapon, and they are told to either hold or open fire. It probably wasn't until they realized that they weren't receiving any return fire that it dawned on them that they'd made a mistake.

When helicopters are called in for assistance they don't shoot our own soldiers because our own soldiers are taking cover and the pilot and gunners are given coordinance to shoot at.

I feel strongly that there should have been an apology issued for this. But to say that the crew of this helicopter should all be discharged is just wrong. The rules of engagement apply everywhere we go, while we’re in Afghanistan and the Middle East those ROE are more heavily enforced it seems. Those soldiers would not have opened fire unless they were specifically told to. I’m certain that the crew feels horribly about what they’ve done, there is no need to rub any salt in the wound by taking away their jobs. I’d almost bet that they’ve been grounded from flight hours for a while, most likely as a punishment and as a way of obtaining them mental medical guidance over what transpired.

You want to be mad at the military, then be mad at the Marines in Japan who rape the locals. Be mad at something truly malicious, not a damn accident.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Yeah, sorry Taker but I've got to disagree on this. Whenever you make a mistake, you should apologize for it. Whenever a wrong has been done to someone, making amends in some way for that wrong is the right thing to do. I know apologizing for screw ups is something that most people try to avoid doing as if it was the plague these days and that's damned unfortunate.

If the situation had been reversed, you can bet your ass that the United States diplomats, leaders and definitely citizens would demand some sort of retribution. Something as simple as an apology may seem impotent to ease the anguish of those boys' family and friends, but at least it's something. Nothing can undo what happened and just because it happened to take place during a time of war is no excuse to not do something as simple and appropriate as apologizing.

Mistakes do sometimes happen in war and I have little doubt that, in times past, there have probably been other such incidents that have taken place in military conflicts involving the United States. We just don't know about them because it used to be so much easier to cover such things up 20, 40, 60 years ago or more. That isn't an excuse and not apologizing would only make us seem every bit the hypocrticial tyrants that a good portion of the world has come to view us since Bush came to power.

We already have enough people hating us as it is.

 

[SavageTaker]

I honestly think most of you if not everyone in this thread completely misread or misunderstood the question I was asking here. I clearly asked in the title of this thread if the U.S. should have apologized to the PRESIDENT of Afghanistan for the accidental murders of those 9 children. Not once did I state that there shouldn't be an apology to the families of the 9 children, that is a total different issue for me and an issue that I have a completely different opinion on.

Anyways, I will stand by opinion on the subject here. I seriously doubt the Afghan president even cares if we apologize or not to him, however he will probably take any chance he can to make himself look like a great leader for his people and will most certainly take any chance to make us, the U.S, look like horrible people who are out to do nothing but evil in Afghanistan.

So like I said, the U.S. shouldn't have to apologize to the president because it was an accident and I completely understand why the troops were ordered (as falconsault pointed out) to open fire. Not only could the firewood they were carrying appear like weapons from however many feet above the ground they were but they children were mistaken as members of The Taliban. I'm no expert, but I'm sure the military doesn't just go around accusing anyone of being part of the Taliban.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I'm pretty sure you're just backtracking now, as I'm reading the complete OP as opposed to just the thread title.

should the US have apologized for this incident? Or for any previous/future incidents like this one?

I don't feel we should have issued an apology to the Afghans.

NO ONE apologizes to us when our troops are shot at and killed... there should not be a need to apologize.

Whilst your thread title says Afghan President, every member of this thread read and replied to your whole post where you specifically said 'Afghans' as opposed to the one Afghan president.

Anyway, it doesn't matter whether he accepted the apology or not, the point is, for once a country stood up and admitted a mistake, then did the right thing by apologising to everyone they could. Do the US get apologies when their innocent civilians are killed? No. Does that mean they shouldn't apologise? Of course not. It's what sets aside countries like America.

 

[SavageTaker]

I'm pretty sure you're just backtracking now, as I'm reading the complete OP as opposed to just the thread title.

No, I'm actually not backtracking here. Like I said, it was clearly stated in the title of the thread the question I was asking. And if you read my opinions on the subject then you would realize that the whole time I was addressing us apologizing to the Afghan president, not the families. So please do me a favor and don't try to excuse your inability to read a thread title properly by accusing me of backtracking.

Anyway, it doesn't matter whether he accepted the apology or not, the point is, for once a country stood up and admitted a mistake, then did the right thing by apologising to everyone they could. Do the US get apologies when their innocent civilians are killed? No. Does that mean they shouldn't apologise? Of course not. It's what sets aside countries like America.

Like I said previously, I will stand by my opinion but I completely see where you are coming from with your sentiments towards this subject. I just personally don't feel the Afghans nor the president deserve the apology (the families recieving an apology personally is a different opinion for me). Yeah, we still gave it to them because that's what the secretary of defense felt was right but I don't think we should feel obligated to issuing an apology to him.

 

[HBK-aholic]

No, I'm actually not backtracking here. Like I said, it was clearly stated in the title of the thread the question I was asking. And if you read my opinions on the subject then you would realize that the whole time I was addressing us apologizing to the Afghan president, not the families. So please do me a favor and don't try to excuse your inability to read a thread title properly by accusing me of backtracking.

MY inability? Maybe if you understood how to form an opening post you'd understand why every member in this thread read the whole thing and replied to it. Or shall we all just read thread titles and reply now? No? So why don't you do ME a favour and learn how to express an opinion clearly as opposed to saying 5 different things then saying the rest of us are unable to understand something.

Like I said previously, I will stand by my opinion but I completely see where you are coming from with your sentiments towards this subject. I just personally don't feel the Afghans nor the president deserve the apology (the families recieving an apology personally is a different opinion for me). Yeah, we still gave it to them because that's what the secretary of defense felt was right but I don't think we should feel obligated to issuing an apology to him.

1. You see those words in brackets? That's what you completely missed out of your opening post. NOW you're differentiating between the Afghans, the president himself, and the families.

2. Why shouldn't he apologise to the rest of the Afghans? Because they don't apologise to us? Because they might not have known the victims personally? It doesn't matter, when mistakes are made that cost 9 very innocent lives there should very well be a LOT of apologising going on. If 9 American children were killed by another countries incompetence we'd expect a grovelling apology. Plus, things like this can not only upset the families but cause upset to regular members of the public also. America handled this situation correctly.

 

[SavageTaker]

MY inability? Maybe if you understood how to form an opening post you'd understand why every member in this thread read the whole thing and replied to it. Or shall we all just read thread titles and reply now? No? So why don't you do ME a favour and learn how to express an opinion clearly as opposed to saying 5 different things then saying the rest of us are unable to understand something.

Yes Becca, YOUR inability is the one I'm talking about here. Also, I never claimed you're supposed to just read the thread title and reply, however the thread title in this case contained the question which should've been answered since that's exactly what this thread was about. But then again what do I know when it comes to what type of questions I want to ask in my threads. Lastly, I did express my opinions clearly on why I think the U.S. didn't need to apologize to the Afghan president. Just because you seem to not be able to understand something it does not mean the rest aren't able to, so please stop speaking for everyone and learn to speak for just yourself.

1. You see those words in brackets? That's what you completely missed out of your opening post. NOW you're differentiating between the Afghans, the president himself, and the families.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I never wanted to talk about the families in this thread for fuck's sake. Therefore, no, that is NOT what is missing out of my opening post. Why is it so hard for you to understand that this thread, which I thunk of, was never meant to be about them. Will me telling you outright help you understand that? Maybe it will so I'll give it a try. Becca, this thread which I, SavageTaker, created was never supposed to be about whether or not the families of the victimes deserved an apology.

2. Why shouldn't he apologise to the rest of the Afghans? Because they don't apologise to us?

Yes, that is part of the reason why I don't think we should apologize to them. That's why I gave it as a reason earlier. But it's also much more than that. When they kill Americans they aren't remorseful at all, so I don't think we should be either. I do understand that you feel completely different than me so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to that.

Because they might not have known the victims personally? It doesn't matter, when mistakes are made that cost 9 very innocent lives there should very well be a LOT of apologising going on. If 9 American children were killed by another countries incompetence we'd expect a grovelling apology. Plus, things like this can not only upset the families but cause upset to regular members of the public also. America handled this situation correctly.

What's with all of this talk of we? I thought you were British and lived in Britain? Anyways, I don't want to argue whether the situation was handled correctly or not. I just personally feel we shouldn't always have to feel obligated to apologize for every mistake we make because guess what? Mistakes happen, tough shit. Instead of sitting there and apologizing we should be working on how to prevent future incidents like this one from happening.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Yes Becca, YOUR inability is the one I'm talking about here. Also, I never claimed you're supposed to just read the thread title and reply, however the thread title in this case contained the question which should've been answered since that's exactly what this thread was about. But then again what do I know when it comes to what type of questions I want to ask in my threads. Lastly, I did express my opinions clearly on why I think the U.S. didn't need to apologize to the Afghan president. Just because you seem to not be able to understand something it does not mean the rest aren't able to, so please stop speaking for everyone and learn to speak for just yourself.

Hey you're the one who made a post saying everyone in the thread misunderstood you. I mean, that must be all of us at fault because you couldn't POSSIBLY have made anything unclear. And I do love how now it's just ME not being able to understand when you quite clearly earlier said most of the posters in the thread had 'misunderstood the question'. More of your backtracking?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I never wanted to talk about the families in this thread for fuck's sake. Therefore, no, that is NOT what is missing out of my opening post. Why is it so hard for you to understand that this thread, which I thunk of, was never meant to be about them. Will me telling you outright help you understand that? Maybe it will so I'll give it a try. Becca, this thread which I, SavageTaker, created was never supposed to be about whether or not the families of the victimes deserved an apology.

You do realise that the families of the victims class as 'Afghans' right? How can you not have wanted/expected to discuss the families in a thread about apologising for killing people? Of course they were going to get brought up, because people who replied felt the U.S. DID owe them an apology, thus answering questions/comments you made in the OP. If you didn't feel that way or it wasn't a thought in your OP then that's completely up to you, but it's ludicrous to think that they weren't going to be mentioned, and silly to say everyone else misunderstood the thread due to an 'inability to read'.

Yes, that is part of the reason why I don't think we should apologize to them. That's why I gave it as a reason earlier. But it's also much more than that. When they kill Americans they aren't remorseful at all, so I don't think we should be either. I do understand that you feel completely different than me so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to that.

I think the remorse is what makes American's the better people here though. If they don't feel remorse for killing, especially killing young innocent children, that really does not bode well for the country or people in it.

What's with all of this talk of we? I thought you were British and lived in Britain?

1. LOL

2. Britain and America are fighting the same sides of these wars or agreeing on most of the issues, and I sure as hell mourn for any American deaths as I do British because it's horrible. 'We' simply meaning the Western, civilised world as opposed to only American, because these issues affect many more than you amazing Americans.

Anyways, I don't want to argue whether the situation was handled correctly or not. I just personally feel we shouldn't always have to feel obligated to apologize for every mistake we make because guess what? Mistakes happen, tough shit. Instead of sitting there and apologizing we should be working on how to prevent future incidents like this one from happening.

And I'm very sure that's happening. But you're seriously using time as a reason to not apologise? It takes like a minute and has gained some respect back to a government who has been attacked for covering up these mistakes in the past.

 

[Miko]

The Afghan government doesnt apologise when American soldiers get shot because they are soldiers, strapping lads armed with guns, knives, grenades and the ability to use them effectively, fighting a war, in a foriegn country, after signing up, and getting paid for it. They arent kids gathering firewood, who didnt even ask for this war and have to try and survive in it everyday.

An apology is deserved really.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I have never been able to understand why some people get so angry when the U.S. apologizes for doing something wrong. It's the conservative punch-line as of late. Obama apologizes too much. Liberals apologize too much.

Bullshit. If we do something wrong, intentional or unintentional, why not apologize? If we accidentally kill some innocent children, why not say we're sorry? I hate when someone refuses to admit they're wrong, and the same goes for our federal government.

You can say it was an accident, and apologize at the same time. If you looked down at your feet while driving, and ran over a kid with your car, would you apologize? Or would you take this hard-ass approach, and never apologize for an accident? It's the same thing.

I'm a pretty moderate guy, and until recently, I didn't really side with one party or the other. But this GOP-style, "Never apologize" stance is killing us around the world. The GOP says apologizing weakens us, and that's bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. Admitting when you're wrong, or when you've made a mistake, is not weak. It takes guts, and other countries understand that. Some in this country need to realize the same thing.