Should Scramble Pinfalls Count As Title Wins?

[Y 2 Jake]

If they did then Matt Hardy, Mark Henry & Chavo Guerrero would all be two time ECW Champions, Finlay a one time ECW Champion. The Brian Kendrick would be a former WWE Champion, Jeff Hardy a former 3 time champion, HHH a former 80 time WWE Champion. Batista would have an extra World Heavyweight Title reign to his tally, and Kane would be one of only two people (I think ) to hold all three brands top titles.

When each wrestler gained a pinfall on the screen Current WWE/ECW/WHC appeared. So with that being said, and with Triple H now being a 13 time WWE Champion, do those reigns or should those reigns count?

 

[klunderbunker]

I'd have to say no they shouldn't. It was almost a game of capture the flag for the title. How HHH gets credit for another reign is beyond me as he came in as champion and left as champion. When the match was talked about on SD, ECW or Raw, everyoen said the title was being defended. Wouldn't that imply HHH successfully defended his belt and didn't get another reign? Also, from what I recall the current champion was never pinned first. I considered it they would be the champion if they outlasted the clock, not that they were defending it for however many minutes were left. I'd say no, because it inflates the reigns in a totally unreasonable way.

 

[The Snake]

Not for me, It would kind of make it a pointless thing to have, it would be used as a number bumper as opposed to something that I genuinely enjoyed. If Triple H was getting 4 pins in a match he would be remembered for beating Ric Flair's title reigns record by none more than cheating. Also it makes anyone becoming a 1 time champion seem very unworthy of being called "A former World Champion" or "A former WWE Champion", imagine saying that about TBK and Jeff Hardy, it wouldn't sound right. I don't like the idea of a title changing more than once in an evening, so that's what sums my whole opinion up really, it might have been fun for the Hardcore Title, but if a major WWE Title match allows 9 holders of a title in one night, it just makes those reigns made of something weaker than paper.

 

[Skullz Crack'Em]

No, of course not, that would drain the credibility from all three titles(not really ECW though, that belt has very little credibility to begin with). If they counted every pinfall as a title reign than they are no worse than WCW for giving their World belt to David Arquette. The World title and WWE title are suppose to be difficult to obtain and the only wrestlers that win them busted their asses off over the years, The Brian Kendrick may be well liked by the IWC, but does he really deserve to have his name in the title history? I don't think so, he has a long way go yet, even being HHH's bitch in the Scramble last night was a huge stepping stone for him, so he may very well be a future champion, when he earns it that is.

 

[THE Madcap]

No way. What I liked about the scramble is that after all that uncertaintly and chaos, there would be one true champion. Having all time title changes count, in my opinion devalues what should be the top titles in the WWE...not the cruiserweight or hardcore titles of days gone by. Also, Kendrick's no way near ready to be called a world champ, although I have a feeling this will now be incorporated into his gimmick. Also, when Jeff Hardy finally wins the big one, I'd rather this moment is crowned as his 1st, rather than 4th title reign.

 

[Shocky]

Hell no. That might be one of the worst ideas ever. I'm still waiting to see the outcome on the Triple H situation, is he a 13 time champion, or did JR fuck up yet again. If he is a 13 time champion, then there is little doubt in my mind that he is simple the title count boosting ****e that I always thought he was.

It's silly, Klunder said it best, it's a game of capture the flag. Triple H wasn't stripped of the title, the title wasn't vacant, so therefore he was the defending champion going into the match, and he was the defending champ leaving the match.

The only thing I could see coming from it, those guys touched the gold. When it come sto individual pushes later on down the line, the whole, Jeff Hardy held the belt on 3 occassions, but couldn't secure the title, or The Brian Kendrick knows what it feels like to be champion for mere moments, but never held the belt. It adds more fuel for storylines, nothing else.

 

[AnthonyMango/NoFate007]

I'd have to say no they shouldn't. It was almost a game of capture the flag for the title.

Great comparison.


No, they shouldn't count. Sure, they did pin someone, and if it was a typical fatal fourway or triple threat, it would count. But judging by how they went down, they sure as hell shouldn't count.

I do think, though, that Wikipedia and WWE.com, when they edit their articles on the championship reigns and lengths, should add notes about it. Have a little indentation tab that states between HHH and HHH (ugh) we had Kendrick and Hardy as interim champions for X number of minutes.

Oh, and if they say that HHH officially has another title reign, then that's fucking ridiculous. He shouldn't get credit for being champion again if nobody in between was an official champion. If they want to make it seem like he won the belt again, then by default, they have to make it that Kendrick and Hardy were WWE champions officially.

 

[Father:_Polley]

Why should it count? The way I look at it is that the match ended after 20mins and the last fall won. The last man standing took the gold and not the guys who weren't able to convert the fall into the win. It's like an Iron man match... just because you take the lead doesn't make you a winner.

As Shocky stated, it's useful because they can say they were holding the title at one point waiting on the bell to ring... but to me, they didn't have the gold officially

 

[Superstar4Life]

These wins should not count as title wins because it was just a game of capture the flag and hold on to as long as you can before someone else takes it from you. This match to me was WWE's basic version of TNA's King of the Mountain match, just without the latter and the hanging of the belt. This match was very entertaining to except the WHC title match which was boring as all He**(insert hockey sticks here).

The only scramble match that I greatly enjoyed was The WWE Title match. Brian Kendrick and Jeff Hardy really showed me that they could be World Champions. MVP and Shelton Benjammin were out of place and clearly showed that they are not ready for the Main Event...sorry benjammin and MVP just my opinion.

Overall granting of the title reigns to the competitors of the match are a no, no. Just goes to show that some are not ready and some are.

 

[Vagrant]

Essentially I agree with every post in the thread, and the reference by klunderbunker to a game of capture the flag was great. Though people were 'temporary champions', I find that only the last pin should count. It would be absolutely idiotic to say each temporary champion was a real one. That being said I also don't agree with Triple H being credited with another title reign, if he was. He defended the title therefore he never really lost it, therefore he shouldn't be credited with another reign.

It was definitely worth nothing who the pins were given to, though. It seems that pinfalls were only given to people that are being pushed/already well established. For example, TBK got a pin in the WWE scramble, adding to his credibility, and Jeff Hardy and HHH had three apiece, clearly showing them as the more important wrestlers in the match. A backstage interview also shows that Jeff Hardy may be challenging for HHH's title soon enough.

 

[Davi323]

Absolutely not. The rules for the Championship scrambles specifically stated that only after the 20 minutes were done would there be an official champion. Any pinfall other than the last one was by the rules of the match, completely unofficial. Under no circumstances should any of the pinfalls that preceded it be counted. The one that matters is the last one. Superstar4life and the others that have mentioned are right, it was essentially a 5 man capture the flag match.

 

[Dead Kennedy]

A Scramble win definitely shouldn't count as a real individual reign. Nobody is helped by being a "paper champion" (think of Kane) and basically, nobody will be impressed if J.R. would every time Shelton Benjamin appears mention that he was, at one point, WWE Champion for like 5 minutes.

 

[Showtime]

I think Admale said on RAW about it that whoever held the title after the scramble was over would be champion, meaning that no one becomes champion untill after the match. So I'm going to say that they shouldn't count, especially if WWE decides to use this match often. It would make the title seem less valuable and more attainable, plus pointless reigns don't help anyone, like Kane.

 

[Trance Metaphor]

They shouldn't count and won't. By looking at the WWE title records, it's clearly shown that names have not been etched after the true defending Champion. If the wins counted, that would degrade the value of the Championships. And I mean, degrading to the point that they're equivalent to the Hardcore Championship. Being tossed around like hot potato would be the worst thing right now.

 

[Father:_Polley]

I am currently watching the PPV, and the rules as described state that the 'Current Champion' at the end of 20 minute match becomes the official champion. Like it or not, that means that Jeff Hardy and Brian Kendrick are still not official WWE champions. Unofficial yes, but they aren't going into the record books as officially holding the belts

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I think for guys like Shelton Benjamin, The Brian Kendrick, Kane, Rey Mysterio and others it might be fun for them to claim they were "Heavyweight Champion" for a couple minutes, especially the first two..

But in the end, if each title change and reign counted, the history books would be spammed up with about 10-15 different title changes all within the same night, and anyone who will forget this match in the future will look back and think to themselves.. "What the shit happened there?"

Again, I'd love to claim The Brian Kendrick was a former World Heavyweight Champion.. but even in doing so, you'll have to answer the questions of "Well, why is he a former Champion? How long was his reign?" And not only would it ruin the credibility of the World Heavyweight Championships of all three brands. (or at least Raw's and Smackdown's) It'd also hurt each Superstar who wanted that reign put in their list of accomplishments because it'll show they couldn't even hold the title beyond 10 minutes.. and they'll forever be seen as a joke.

So overall, I say if the Champion who went in, retained in the end.. NO record should be marked at all. And if someone else comes out the Champion (Matt Hardy/Chris Jericho) then it should simply be put in the record books.. they defeated the former Heavyweight Champion, as well as having an asterisk next to that victory and explaining it was in a "Championship Scramble" match.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Is this seriously being counted as an added reign for Triple H? If that's so, then every other title 'win' would have to count. If it didn't, we're saying he added a championship reign, beating...himself? If the others aren't recognised as champions it makes Triple H being champion 'again' look stupid.

In my opinion, none of them should count, unless at the end of the match there is a new champion. Triple H is a 12 time champion. Kendrick isn't a former Heavyweigh Champion.

It would ruin all credibility of the belt. What's left of it anyway. The champion was only crowned at the end of the match. The others never officially 'held' championship gold. It was never planned to be that way. Triple H went in the champion and he came out as such. Therefore he should not add a reign.

 

[Motown Revived]

The answer is no, for the same reason that title wins aren't counted in 2 out of 3 falls matches. If you score a pinfall you didn't just "win" the match, so you aren't the champion.

 

[Davi323]

The only way that it would count as a another title reign for HHH is if officially, the WWE, World Heavyweight and ECW titles had been declared "vacant" prior to the beginning of the match. As this did not happen, I don't think this counts as an added title to HHH's resume, merely that he successfully defended his WWE title.

 

[Starchild]

Absolutely not! Whether you agree or not, the fact remains that counting all those title wins would have devalued the title greatly. It would have been a totally cheap way to get HHH the record for world title, and you would have had some pointless reigns of guys that just weren't ready, mainly Kendrick.
I was skeptical about the idea of the Scramble as it initially reminded me a bit too much of that Hardcore Invitational from years ago, but they were booked great.

 

[pflet87413]

Finally, that was my whole reason for coming to this post, was in hope that someone remembered the Hardcore Invitational that Crash Holly dominated. The WWE is forcing down our throats on the originality of this, but it has been done before. Don't get me wrong, I am glad they brought it back in this way, but calling it completely original, insults the fans that remember their history.

 

[Dead Kennedy]

Yeah, WWE sure like to do that...hate it when we know so well something happened before, yet they push it as a "completely new concept." Granted, the Scramble match was an improvement over the WM2000 Hardcore Battle Royal (not in terms of who won >.< hell yeah...) but it sure as hell wasn't a brand-spankin' new concept.

One difference though, is of course what the thread is about. The Hardcore title reigns counted as separate reigns for everyone who gained a pin in the match. The "current WWE/ECW/WHC champions" will receive no recognition of their deeds. And that's really good, because the point of the Hardcore title was chaos and eventually, a bloated title history. The top-tier championships (perhaps the ECW Championship should be left out in this case...) deserve to be elite achievements reserved only for the very best. Granted, everyone who gained a pinfall in the WWE Championship match deserve to be the real WWE Champion one day, but they're gonna have to wait until their day comes for real.