Should Razor Ramon get as much credit as HBK for the Ladder Match at Wrestlemania X?

[jayteeERA]

This one has always bother me forever. HBK gets all the credit in the world for the ladder match at Wrestlemania X. Its like he won the match . Why? Cause he did a splash of the top of the ladder.WOW. Well Razor utilize the ladder as much as HBK did. What about the slam Razor gave HBK off the ladder? What about the catapult Razor gave HBK into the ladder? I'm sure Razor didn't walk in there and did nothing. I understand why WWE doesn't want to give him any credit. Due to bad terms. I understand HBK made ladder matches famous. He did put on a show in that ladder match. But so did Razor.

Don't you think Razor should be given some credit just as much as HBK at Wrestlemania X?

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

This one has always bother me forever. HBK gets all the credit in the world for the ladder match at Wrestlemania X. Its like he won the match . Why? Cause he did a splash of the top of the ladder.WOW. Well Razor utilize the ladder as much as HBK did. What about the slam Razor gave HBK off the ladder? What about the catapult Razor gave HBK into the ladder? I'm sure Razor didn't walk in there and did nothing. I understand why WWE doesn't want to give him any credit. Due to bad terms. I understand HBK made ladder matches famous. He did put on a show in that ladder match. But so did Razor.

Don't you think Razor should be given some credit just as much as HBK at Wrestlemania X?

Simple answer, yet complicated. Yes he should get more credit for the Ladder Match. However, Shawn Michaels has been loyal to Vince. He's a WWE guy through and through. Scott Hall/Razor is not. Razor left on less than stellar terms and to be honest, the build is mostly to stroke HBK's ego and his rep as a big time main event star. Which he is. The match was great, but Hall was just as good, if not better than HBK. And deserves the same credit as HBK has.

 

[mister_b1LL]

I don't understand why Razor doesn't get more credit. He won the damn match! But I also agree with Lariat. Because Scott Hall didn't exactly remain loyal to the WWE he doesn't really get recognized all too often about it. In fact, I remember watching a VHS from like 2000 about Tables, Ladders, and Chairs and they talked about how the origins came from the Ladder Match at WMX. All they showed was Shawn Michaels beating up Razor. The only part where Razor shined was when he won the match.

I think Scott Hall should get some credit where credit is due. It's interesting to see that Hall hasn't said anything about it throughout his career. What's stopping him from saying that he won the first ever ladder match? Jericho talks about how he became the first Undisputed Champion all the time.

 

[jazzua]

I can understand the loyalty concept. However, when I go back and watch the match, Shawn is the one who stands out. Number one, he sells better than Scott. He pretty much sells better than anyone. While the splash is what everyone remembers, because that's the image shown over and over, there was the ride of the top down onto Scott as well. Shawn just seemed a little more at home than Razor did, in my opinion.

While I can somewhat agree that Shawn didn't just go out and have a match with a ladder, I do think that Shawn is the one that shined in that match. He shows more emotion throughout, and simply plays the crowd better. If we talk about the rematch at SS, there is no doubt in my mind that Shawn completely out performs Scott. As for WM 10, Razor deserves a little more credit, but Shawn made that match. If it was Scott verse anyone else it wouldn't have been as good. Shawn could have done it with anyone. To me, that's the difference.

 

[Steve001]

The main reason why Scott Hall doesn't receive the recognition he deserves for the WM10 & Summerslam '95 ladder matches with HBK is exactly what others have said, namely, because Hall accepted a payout from "ATM Eric" in May of '96 and jumped ship to WCW. At a time when he was a very valuable member of the WWF roster.

Also, Vinnie Mac rarely himself puts anyone over who isn't on his payroll, or permits anyone else to do so either.

What's stopping him from saying that he won the first ever ladder match?

Because he didn't! The ladder match originated in Stu Hart's Stampede Wrestling in Canada in the early 80's. Jake 'The Snake' Roberts and Sylvester Ritter better known as the Junkyard Dog in the WWF took part in the match.

Also, Bret Hart and HBK had a ladder match in the WWF in 1992 at a 'Primetime Wrestling' taping.

 

[CardiffCam]

Well, Shawn Michaels did have the most memorable moments throughout the match, and he's the one still in the WWE, so the one that can take full credit and be made to shine. Some people have said Ramone should say he won the first ever ladder match, but it was just billed as the first ladder match in the WWF. As someone above me said, there was one in the early eighties, and though I haven't seen one myself, its heavily promoted that the first ever ladder match took place in 1972 in Britain (not sure if it was shown on WoS or not) and it involved Kendo Nagasaki. You cant see Nagasaki pop up anywhere without mentioning he was a participant in the first ever ladder match, and i presume he won since he wasnt unmasked yet. Not sure how much truth there is to this, or whether even THIS was the first ladder match, but I definetely know the first ladder match did not take place in 1994.

 

[Travaje]

If you replaced Shawn Michaels with an average wrestler, the ladder match would just be okay. If you replaced Scott Hall with anybody, and it still would have been the best match on the card. PWI even said the match Shawn Michaels had with Vince McMahon in 2006 (Vince, who is NOT a wrestler, and was 62! at the time) was the match of that year.

I don't think people mean to knock Hall, it's just that he happened to be wrestling Shawn freaking Michaels, arguably the greatest EVER. The only reason Hall won the match was because A.) Michaels was already over and is the Michael Jordan of wrestling, and B.) the office had bigger plans for him cause he's the Michael Jordan of wrestling. It definately wasn't because Hall carried the match, cause he didn't.

The fact that Michaels is still killing it today and Hall can't keep it together probably doesn't help Hall's legacy.

 

[Trill Co$by]

If you replaced Shawn Michaels with an average wrestler, the ladder match would just be okay. If you replaced Scott Hall with anybody, and it still would have been the best match on the card. PWI even said the match Shawn Michaels had with Vince McMahon in 2006 (Vince, who is NOT a wrestler, and was 62! at the time) was the match of that year.

The only problem with PWI is that they're paid by WWE when the year end awards come out. Why else would all the real 5 star matches never get recognized?


Anyway, back to the topic...

There's one simple answer that should settle this...

SCOTT HALL LEFT WWF FOR WCW!

It's that simple. Had Scott not done that, then yeah, he would be credited for the second WWF ladder match in history. But you know, here's something you need to think about...

Why is the Wrestlemania X ladder match considered the first? Especially when the WWF themself had one before that involving Bret & Shawn? Hell, it even appeared on WWF's "Most Unusual Matches Ever" VHS tape (which I still have).

 

[ABMorales787]

Are you sure its not because Michaels has been a part of more ladder matches than Hall? He's been in almost 10 I believe. Scott Hall only did the first 2 and that was it. HBK always brought something new to it. Hall was busy screwing around backstage. Hall may have competed in the "first" and "second", but Shawn also competed in the "third", "fouth", well you get the idea.

 

[Steve001]

[QUOTE="The Kill Joy" Robert Morales;1741329]Are you sure its not because Michaels has been a part of more ladder matches than Hall? He's been in almost 10 I believe. Scott Hall only did the first 2 and that was it..[/QUOTE]

Scott Hall main evented WCW's Souled Out PPV in January '99 against none other than Goldberg in a ladder match.

The only reason why Michael's has been featured in such a large amount of ladder matches is because as someone else pointed out before, HBK is the Michael Jordan of wrestling! At the time of the WWF's 'New Generation' marketing campaign, the then young, athletic super-worker named Shawn Michaels was the perfect candidate to showcase in new and exciting gimmick matches.

This obviously continued on post 'New Generation', being the savvy pro that he is, even if the live crowd totally shit on the match or HBK's opponent was limited, Shawn could adapt to a situation and call the match accordingly, avoiding disaster. Shawn was Vince's safe option to carry the then new, high risk ladder matches.

For example, when Triple H tore his quad mid-ring main eventing against Edge and Orton at the New Years Revolution 2007 PPV, check out HBK's match saving effort in distracting the viewer's attention away from his legitimately injured tag partner 'Cripple H' and ensuring the match reaches it's planned finish smoothly.
A must-watch for any aspiring Pro Wrestler's.

HBK, due to his talent alone was the smart choice to place in ladder stipulated bouts, It's that simple. It also happens that all his ladder based efforts have been well received and clips of them have been dished out on official WWE home video releases for years, promoting Shawn's efforts.

This is why, along with other reasons I listed in an earlier post, HBK is synonymous with ladder matches and therefore Scott Hall's input is overlooked by the useless talking heads on WWE DVD releases.

 

[whitefox]

If you replaced Shawn Michaels with an average wrestler, the ladder match would just be okay. If you replaced Scott Hall with anybody, and it still would have been the best match on the card. PWI even said the match Shawn Michaels had with Vince McMahon in 2006 (Vince, who is NOT a wrestler, and was 62! at the time) was the match of that year.

Completely agree with this. Everything about the match has Shawn Michales written all over it. Yes Razor slammed him of the the ladder and did a catapult but Michaels is the one that made those moments look good, HBK sells a beating better than anyone (sometimes too well, ask Hulk Hogan...)

It doesn't matter that Razor won the match. The British Bulldog beat Bret at Summerslam 1992 in an all time classic, but Bret was the one who shot to the mainevent becasue of it. The same can be said for Shawn in this match.

Razor did good, but HBK made the match what it was.

 

[Stuntz]

Absolutely in the real world. However as said before in this thread its all about loyalty and kissing Vince's ass. Now that being said, In a 1 on 1 match it takes 2 to make a great match. Yes HBK looked better and sold better in this match, but Razor was the one to go over. Now back in the day before hall went to the E he was a major player and was compared to Hogan back then. But he couldnt handle the big business and now he is just him. Back on subject, Hall was a hell of a performer back in his early E days, and that match made him and HBK shine, the the events since then have left the wrong rub on himself, and if he stayed loyal to Vince and didnt fuck up his life with the booze I believe he would be recognized just as much if not more for that match than HBK due to the fact he won it.

 

[Aramis]

I think that HBK get’s more credit than Razor for good reason, and is more deserving. When you think of ladder matches Shawn Michael’s is the name that you think of, simply because he is the more memorable wrestler attached to these matches in many cases. While Razor of course had a part in the match, I don’t think that he invested himself as much as Shawn, he did not put on as impressive a show as Shawn or put his body on the line to such an extent. The idea of a ladder match is what Shawn has always been about, it is a chance to display daring, athleticism and make your opponent look great in the process. The only problem with the ladder match was that Shawn did his job too well, and stole the show, not just from the other matches that night, but from Razor himself. In a ladder match environment there was never any doubt that Shawn would deliver on a larger scale than Razor, he did and he is remembered as doing so. This commitment has been a staple of HBK’s career, he always talks about stealing shows and trailblazing new ideas and this is one occasion where he delivered on that promise all too well.

While issues such as company loyalty may have played a part in allocating credit for the match, I feel that HBK could have had that match with anyone. The ladder match was pretty much virgin territory here, so there were any number of spots and sequences involving the ladder that the two could have used. I feel that someone having a well regarded ladder match today deserves more credit than someone in one of the first matches, because it is much more of a challenge to come up with fresh ideas in a match that has been used so much, as well as the issue of keeping the audience’s attention while knowing that they have seen huge ladder matches throughout history.

For newer generations to wrestling Shawn may be more easily remembered because he is still with WWE, and therefore more readily visible to new fans. For fans who remember this match however, Michael’s is still the one who sticks out, and his career since then has only served to highlight this. The splash that HBK did from the ladder is one of the most replayed clips in wrestling history, and who remembers the person who was receiving a splash? Most of the time nobody does, and this basically summarises the whole match. Michael’s in this type of match is a human highlight reel, and he was always going to be the one to stick out more for this reason. He put his body on the line far more than Razor, delivered more in the match and thus received the credit that he deserved, in my opinion.

 

[Tougie]

I always get pissed when I see on interviews wrestlers saying "Shawn went out there and had a match with a ladder, there just happened to be another guy in the ring with him". I believe those are words from either HHH or Flair. Hall never gets the respect he deserves for making Shawn look incredible that night. And then to have the rematch at Summerslam 95' where Hall once again made HBK look like a million bucks, and still get no credit. I mean seriously something is wrong there. Both of them together set the bar and brought ladder matches into the main stream, and both of them deserve the credit. Obviously this hasent happened because Hall jumped to WCW in 96. Kinda like how WWE makes no mention of Kurt Angle having fantastic matches with Shawn in 05 and once again making HBK look great. HBK really does get the better of everything he takes part in, including the Ladder Match at WM10.

 

[Tastycles]

This one has always bother me forever. HBK gets all the credit in the world for the ladder match at Wrestlemania X. Its like he won the match . Why? Cause he did a splash of the top of the ladder.WOW. Well Razor utilize the ladder as much as HBK did. What about the slam Razor gave HBK off the ladder? What about the catapult Razor gave HBK into the ladder? I'm sure Razor didn't walk in there and did nothing. I understand why WWE doesn't want to give him any credit. Due to bad terms. I understand HBK made ladder matches famous. He did put on a show in that ladder match. But so did Razor.

Don't you think Razor should be given some credit just as much as HBK at Wrestlemania X?

The answer is in your questions. HBK took all of the bumps into the ladder when Razor was dominating, any chump can throw people, it was Michaels that was getting hit by the ladder etc. By a similar token, when Michaels was on the offense, he was jumping off the ladder and stuff, whereas Hall was quite static. That's it basically - Michaels took bumps into the ladder and jumped off it, Razor, by comparison, basically had a normal wrestling match with an extraordinary opponent. Michaels gets all the credit because he does all the stuff you remember in the match. I wouldn't go as far as Ric Flair and say that Hall's stood there while Michaels wrestled the ladder, but Michaels was undoubtedly the star of that match.