Should Mr Perfect have been WWE Champion?

[The Brain]

Sorry, that was my sarcasm getting the better of me. I thought you would get that with the whole laughing smiley face. Let me make myself clear: I understand that Warrior was popular and I'm not debating that at all. What I am saying is that when you compare talent, Hennig was easily ten times the all-around performer and in-ring competitor than Warrior[and that's being generous]. And yeah, I do admit that popularity is sometimes the motivation behind untalented guys like Warrior being chosen to be champion when guys like Perfect obviously deserved it more. Hennig paid his dues and worked hard for decades to get to WWF. In stark contrast to that, Jim Hellwig just happened to be a freakish bodybuilder at the right place and in the right time. He paid zero dues and was pushed on appearance alone. He had no charisma or in-ring ability. Even before I knew about wrestling being "scripted" and not based on talent, I still wasn't a fan of The Warrior. Even when I was 8 or 9 guys like Hogan & Savage were my favorites as opposed to Warrior. Warrior was just too far out there for my taste and that didn't improve over time. My whole basis of debate here is that Hennig deserved to be champion a helluva lot more than Warrior ever did. One could also argue that Hennig seemed to be a better person than Warrior as well. You hear all kind of negative things about Warrior but cannot find many bad things from anyone about Hennig. His talent and drive should have been enough to qualify him as a worthy contender and made him a WWF Champion. As you said though, popularity was more important with merch sales and such back then. No doubt that Warrior wins there[probably the only area in which Warrior would ever beat Hennig].

I understand what you're saying. Hennig worked hard to become a good performer. He had the desire and the ability. He was great at what he did and you feel that should have been rewarded with a world title reign. I respect that and I'm sure most people would. Unfortunately in the busines world of the WWF it's not who works the hardest and executes the best arsenal of wrestling holds that gets rewarded with the big prize. It's the guy who is the most popular and sells the most tickets.

I gotta ask here; Are you claiming Hennig SHOULDN'T have been WWF Champion? Because it's abit confusing that you claim you liked him at certain points and contradict that by claiming he wasn't worthy of becoming champion.

I did like Hennig. I liked him a lot. I liked a lot of guys that I feel shouldn't have been champion. I liked Jake Roberts, Rick Rude, and Ted Dibiase. If all the guys I liked were world champion then the title would have been passed around every couple months and we would have never enjoyed the legendary reigns of Hulk Hogan. He would have been just another guy to get his turn with the belt. It's not that Hennig wasn't worthy of being champion. I just think there were better choices. Especially since Hennig got two good IC reigns at a time when the IC title was a lot more important.

It was indeed a time of the hero back then. Which is the only reason a no-talent hack like Warrior would ever become WWF Champion. That doesn't mean we cannot look back and see how inconsistent pro wrestling was to certain legends like Hennig and question why. Saying it's "just the way it was" simply does not cover it. When you take a look at those who were all coming up around the same time in wrestling as Hennig, you see WWF Champions. Diesel, Sid, Vader, HBK, and Bret Hart more notably. How WWF[E] could not have considered Hennig as good if not better than them by giving him a title reign is beyond my comprehension ability. I understand that merit and skill isn't the only deciding factor, but still; it just doesn't equate to me that Warrior will have done something that Hennig never did, despite the fact that Warrior was nowhere near Hennig's league or calibur of performer. That simple.

I think we are mixed up with our timeframes here. Mr. Perfect was not an active WWF wrestler when Diesel, Sid, or Michaels were champion. If he were an active wrestler sometime in 1994-1996 as a heel I could see him with the title. That's what I mean by the timing not being right. Instead he was active when Hogan and Warrior were on top. Despite Warrior's perfromance in the ring he was very popular. Too popular not to have been champion. If Warrior was never made champion everyone would be wondering how someone so popular could have gone without the title.

Nor can I dictate what you choose to believe. If you want to believe there was a legitimate reason for WWF to not have made Hennig WWF Champion, good for you. I'm simply pointing out the numerous positives of Hennig's far outweighed his negatives and he should've been rewarded for his years of paying dues by getting the opportunity to be World Champion.

I just want to be clear that my saying Hennig should not have been champion is not an insult to him. Try to picture Vince comparing Henning to Warrior in 1990. On one hand you have Hennig who has worked hard to become a great wrestler and is an excellent perfromer in the ring. He has a great gimmick and natural charisma. A good choice for champion. On the other hand you have Warrior. Warrior doesn't have the work ethic or in ring ability of Hennig but he is incredibly popular with the audience. He's become just as popular as Hulk Hogan who was the most popular wrestler ever and one that made Vince a ton of money. He had a chance to repeat the success of Hulkamania with the Ultimate Warrior so of course he picked Warrior over Hennig. Of course Warrior did not end up as successful as Hogan but that's hindsight. I'm not arguing this from hindsight. I'm defending the decisions that were made at the time.

No, we're thinking of the same time. I was saying that after Hennig returned from injury, he should've taken the natural progression and become WWF Champion. Not that he should've won when he returned in 2002. 2002 Hennig was noticeably much different and not the same performer. He had lost his appeal to most fans by that point and his popularity was pretty much relagated to being a nostalgia act. Much the same way it was when WWE brought back Hulk Hogan. I will agree that Perfect was alot better as a heel. He was too bland and generic as the smiling face and he had a natural charisma that seemed better suited to the heel role.

I'm still not sure we're on the same page about the time. I know you weren't referring to 2002 but you keep saying when Hennig returned from injury. He did not suffer the injury until 1991. He was out of action from SummerSlam 91 until Survivor Series 92. When he returned he was a face which you agree was not when he was at his best. Fogetting about the brief return in 2002 Mr. Perfect didn't wrestle for the WWF as a heel after SummerSlam 91. You also say Perfect should have been world champion after he was IC champion but Warrior won the world title before Perfect ever won his first IC title. So just to be clear when specifically do you think would have been a good time for Perfect to be champion?

Being a showman is totally different from being a technician. Warrior and Hogan were superior showmen than Hennig, no doubt there. However, by the same token, Hogan & Warrior could never lace Hennig's boots as far as being technicians in ring. I do understand that showmen have their place in wrestling and have always been more preferred as marketable champions. It's all about money to wrestling promoters like McMahon and others. While Warrior & Hogan were the big money champions, guys like Hennig and Bret Hart were the undercard that allowed them to remain on top. They were having the good matches while Hogan and Warrior were doing the same boring crap routines.

You summed up my point right there. Even though Hennig and Hart were delivering better matches Warrior and Hogan were the guys selling the tickets. You may have found their matches to be boring crap, and that's fine, but the majority of the crowd did not. Even if most people agreed that Hennig and Hart were delivering better matches they were going to tell you the paid to see Hogan or Warrior.

I take offense with you claiming Hennig wasn't capable of holding a crowd as well as Hogan or Warrior. Simply put, he had other methods of acheiving the same ends. Hogan & Warrior wowed the crowds with their appearance and presences alone. Guys like Bret Hart, Michaels, Savage, and Hennig had the unique ability to hold crowds in their hands by their technical ability and in-ring storytelling. Different strokes for different performers.

I don't mean Hennig couldn't hold the crowd at all. He could and did a good job. He just did it differently. While Hennig could hold the crowd with a good match that tells a story he didn't have them out of their chairs in a frenzy like Hogan and Warrior.

This is where we disagree the most. If there were better choices as far as being a more all around performer, I never saw them. On second thought, maybe we were watching different times. Because the WWF I saw during that time were full of awful gimmicks and freakishily untalented glorified bodybuilder types. WWF was damn near cartoonish and Hennig's whole character was a nice change from the status-quo. To me, that's what mattered and set Perfect apart from the crowd. Many have the ability to stand out physically with appearances. Very few can wrestle, talk, and deliver in damn near every area like Curt Hennig did. Obviously some don't see it that way, which I can understand[though I don't agree at all].

I'm not taking anything away from Hennig's ability. I'm just saying during his time the belt was going on the most popular guy regardless of ability.

I'm guessing with that whole thing, you don't judge merely based on merit or actual ability[SHOCKING! ]. Honestly, I don't think you give Perfect credit for being as skilled as he was. I don't believe fans would have minded at all if Mr. Perfect had been WWF Champion instead of Warrior.

I very much disagree. I think you're forgetting how popular Warrior was. I think you're forgetting the build up to WM6. Do you really think the fans would have been as excited for Hulk Hogan vs. Mr. Perfect at WM6 as they were for Hulk Hogan vs. Ultimate Warrior? Not a chance. That was probably one of the top three main events in maina history. Top five for sure.

FYI, comparing Owen/Shawn to Perfect/Warrior is wrong on so many levels. Not the least of which was the amount of dues Perfect paid over decades and years of dedication to his craft. Although the same principal would still apply with Owen winning the title instead of Austin. I will grant you that the moment would've been alot different and maybe not as impactful. But who says different has to mean worse? For each scenario you pitch, each one could've had its own domino effects for the positive for the overall course of the pro wrestling business as a whole. Especially if guys that never won the WWF Title like Owen or Curt Hennig won and had become the forerunners of the technical generation of skilled workers that would've eventually caught on anyway. Imagine what potentially great matches could've replace those lame and boring Hogan & Warrior matches with unworthy challengers if Perfect had been challenging big names like a Hogan or Warrior. No doubt that an already impressive legacy of "Mr. Perfect" would've been that much better if that had happened. That's just the way I see it, though

I'm not so much comparing Owen to Perfect as I am comparing Austin to Warrior. In 1998 Austin was red hot and it was obvious he was going to win the title at WM14. How could he not? That's the same kind of momentum Warrior had in 1990. Regardless of how much talent you have on the roster when you have someone who is as popular and have the momentum that Austin and Warrior had they were the obvious choice for champion.

I think we've both mad our points here so I don't know how much more can be said. Just clear one thing up for me that I asked earlier. When specifically do you think Mr. Perfect should have been champion? We've kind of jumped all over the map here. Keep in mind Perfect had not been IC champ by the time Warrior won the world title and he never wrestled in WWF as a heel (excluding 2002) after losing the IC title to Bret Hart. Also he was out with injury from SummerSlam 91-Survivor Series 92 and stopped as an active wrestler around Survivor Series 93.

 

[IT Factor]

I understand what you're saying. Hennig worked hard to become a good performer. He had the desire and the ability. He was great at what he did and you feel that should have been rewarded with a world title reign. I respect that and I'm sure most people would. Unfortunately in the busines world of the WWF it's not who works the hardest and executes the best arsenal of wrestling holds that gets rewarded with the big prize. It's the guy who is the most popular and sells the most tickets.

Exactly. I think you summed up the main jist of what I was saying as a whole. I do admit that popularity is sometimes more a driving factor to make someone champion over merit or actual ability. Wrestling is a business like any other and I can respect that McMahon wanted to do what would ensure him the most money. Unfortunately, in the long run, I believe Hennig could have benefitted the company as WWF Champion. His reign couldn't have been any worse than Warrior's actual reign as far as being mediocre or less memorable.

I did like Hennig. I liked him a lot. I liked a lot of guys that I feel shouldn't have been champion. I liked Jake Roberts, Rick Rude, and Ted Dibiase. If all the guys I liked were world champion then the title would have been passed around every couple months and we would have never enjoyed the legendary reigns of Hulk Hogan. He would have been just another guy to get his turn with the belt. It's not that Hennig wasn't worthy of being champion. I just think there were better choices. Especially since Hennig got two good IC reigns at a time when the IC title was a lot more important.

I see where you are coming from here, though I don't agree. In some cases, I do wish that certain old school guys like Roddy Piper or Jake Roberts had gotten a WWF Title reign. It would've solidified their resumes as all-time greats and proven or disproven what they were capable of as leaders. The difference with those and Hennig was that Hennig had the ability and all around skill to embody the WWF. If I said that Roberts or Piper should've been champion, it would be based on my favoring them as a fan. Hennig was different because while I was a big fan of his, I felt he professionally deserved it alot more than the other non-WWF Champions. It's not as if I'm saying Perfect not being WWF Champion lessened his overall impact as IC Champion. Back then being IC Champ was a big honor, although I do feel as if WWF[E] made a big mistake not giving Hennig the opportunity to showcase his ability on a larger scale and getting to represent the best of his generation[which I believe he easily was].

I think we are mixed up with our timeframes here. Mr. Perfect was not an active WWF wrestler when Diesel, Sid, or Michaels were champion. If he were an active wrestler sometime in 1994-1996 as a heel I could see him with the title. That's what I mean by the timing not being right. Instead he was active when Hogan and Warrior were on top. Despite Warrior's perfromance in the ring he was very popular. Too popular not to have been champion. If Warrior was never made champion everyone would be wondering how someone so popular could have gone without the title.

I did not make my statement clear enough and I don't blame you for misunderstanding my meaning; Hennig feuded with and debuted with alot of big name talents that either became WWF Champions or got numerous opportunities to do so. What I was saying is that when Perfect returned from injury in 92 that he should've gotten to work with Bret Hart again and won the WWF Title. I always loved the chemistry between Perfect & Bret and that feud for the title would've been phenominal. I do see your point about Warrior, though I don't agree with it. If Warrior got the opportunity based on mere appearance and popularity alone, Perfect should've gotten the opportunity based on merit and ability. I equate Mr. Perfect with Bret Hart; they were both inferior showmen to Warrior & Hogan but much better in-ring technicians that could emotionally hook their audience and tell stories.

I just want to be clear that my saying Hennig should not have been champion is not an insult to him. Try to picture Vince comparing Henning to Warrior in 1990. On one hand you have Hennig who has worked hard to become a great wrestler and is an excellent perfromer in the ring. He has a great gimmick and natural charisma. A good choice for champion. On the other hand you have Warrior. Warrior doesn't have the work ethic or in ring ability of Hennig but he is incredibly popular with the audience. He's become just as popular as Hulk Hogan who was the most popular wrestler ever and one that made Vince a ton of money. He had a chance to repeat the success of Hulkamania with the Ultimate Warrior so of course he picked Warrior over Hennig. Of course Warrior did not end up as successful as Hogan but that's hindsight. I'm not arguing this from hindsight. I'm defending the decisions that were made at the time.

Again, I understand your logic here; Warrior was popular and a potential cash cow for the WWF. He was a perfect[not pun intended ] fit for the WWF at the time of the hero and WWF's cartoonish nature. Just like my view of Warrior isn't a professional dislike, but a personal dislike. Which is why I admit that making Warrior may have been a good move. Although how he got the opportunity time after time and Hennig did not is ludicrious to me.

I'm still not sure we're on the same page about the time. I know you weren't referring to 2002 but you keep saying when Hennig returned from injury. He did not suffer the injury until 1991. He was out of action from SummerSlam 91 until Survivor Series 92. When he returned he was a face which you agree was not when he was at his best. Fogetting about the brief return in 2002 Mr. Perfect didn't wrestle for the WWF as a heel after SummerSlam 91. You also say Perfect should have been world champion after he was IC champion but Warrior won the world title before Perfect ever won his first IC title. So just to be clear when specifically do you think would have been a good time for Perfect to be champion?

I'm saying Hennig should've been champion in 1992. He could've been the new hero type of WWF Champion and he would've been a nice fit once Hogan left[instead of having Lex Luger trying and failing]. I do admit that Perfect was a much better heel, but I still believe Hennig could've pulled it off either way. I also think that WWF did a great job advancing their talents once they thoroughly built them up. Back then guys were IC Champions and then after tests and trials, they became WWF Champion to cement them as worthy. Hennig's next logical progression would have been becoming the WWF Champion, which I feel he easily deserved. I'm sure not all fans agree here.

You summed up my point right there. Even though Hennig and Hart were delivering better matches Warrior and Hogan were the guys selling the tickets. You may have found their matches to be boring crap, and that's fine, but the majority of the crowd did not. Even if most people agreed that Hennig and Hart were delivering better matches they were going to tell you the paid to see Hogan or Warrior.

Like I said, showmen are much different than technicians. I understand that WWF wanted top money makers. From a business standpoint, it makes perfect[pun intended ] sense. From a personal standpoint, it seems like a travesty when inferior talents got the chance to run with the ball and Hennig didn't.

I don't mean Hennig couldn't hold the crowd at all. He could and did a good job. He just did it differently. While Hennig could hold the crowd with a good match that tells a story he didn't have them out of their chairs in a frenzy like Hogan and Warrior.

That's as much to do with their different styles and attributes as their inadequacies. Hennig may not have worked the crowd into a "frenzy" but by the same token, Hogan never delivered a five star classic and managed to intrigue crowds with his technique. And while lack of showmanship may have been the reason WWF didn't make Hennig their world champion, that doesn't make it a good reason[in my view].

I'm not taking anything away from Hennig's ability. I'm just saying during his time the belt was going on the most popular guy regardless of ability.

I never said you were dismissing Hennig's ability. I was simply pointing out the obvious; his lack of being a big hero type shouldn't have limited his opportunity to become champion. That would've been like not giving Warrior or Hogan the WWF Title because they couldn't wrestle. It's a dumb reason not to give an otherwise worthy contender the title they spent their careers working towards. Obviously you don't see it that way. Which I can respect but not agree with.

I very much disagree. I think you're forgetting how popular Warrior was. I think you're forgetting the build up to WM6. Do you really think the fans would have been as excited for Hulk Hogan vs. Mr. Perfect at WM6 as they were for Hulk Hogan vs. Ultimate Warrior? Not a chance. That was probably one of the top three main events in maina history. Top five for sure.

Again, I can tell you prefer money to talent. Honestly, I think WWF could've convincingly have built Perfect in that same role and Hennig would have done as well if not better than Warrior. I believe while Warrior was more popular and freakishly bigger, that Hennig could've captivated crowds with his mastery and outmanuervering Hogan in ring. I will give you that Hogan/Warrior was a top five Mania moment. I never dismiss what Warrior did accomplish. He was a popular guy who had an impact in wrestling and I'm not denying that. I am saying you could've easily have substituted Hennig for Warrior and he could've equalled or surpassed Warrior as far as making memorable moments. He definetely would've been a mainstay in the main events alot longer than Warrior was.

I'm not so much comparing Owen to Perfect as I am comparing Austin to Warrior. In 1998 Austin was red hot and it was obvious he was going to win the title at WM14. How could he not? That's the same kind of momentum Warrior had in 1990. Regardless of how much talent you have on the roster when you have someone who is as popular and have the momentum that Austin and Warrior had they were the obvious choice for champion.

Once again, I do not dismiss the ability of a great showman. Austin definetely had the showman ability like a Warrior or Hogan of their previous generation. In ring ability will only get you so far. That comparision is flawed from the jump, though. Perfect was more rounded as a complete performer than Owen, which was why I pointed that out to begin with. I wasn't claiming that Owen should've won over Austin. I do believe that Perfect should've won over Warrior, though I do see how that analogy fits.

I think we've both mad our points here so I don't know how much more can be said. Just clear one thing up for me that I asked earlier. When specifically do you think Mr. Perfect should have been champion? We've kind of jumped all over the map here. Keep in mind Perfect had not been IC champ by the time Warrior won the world title and he never wrestled in WWF as a heel (excluding 2002) after losing the IC title to Bret Hart. Also he was out with injury from SummerSlam 91-Survivor Series 92 and stopped as an active wrestler around Survivor Series 93.

I agree that there's no sense beating a dead horse. We've both established where we stand on this issue and defined our views to clarity. Again, I believe that when Perfect returned in 1992 that he should've been built as the next WWF Champion. That would've been the most opportune time to make it happen if it were going to. I will conceed that most of this is retroactively wishing it had happened and not that it was economically viable for the company. Though I will put it out there that Hennig couldn't have been a worse financial risk in the long run than Warrior was. I guess we simply disagree here.

 

[braveh]

I think if there was a great writer on the WWF creative team at the time they could have been able to push his gimmick a couple of steps further. That was all he needed. He needed to be over the top, like really over the top. That never happened.

I felt like his gimmick and persona never reached its full potential. If all of those thiings would have happened he definitely should have been the WWF champion.

 

[BLeonard]

Well, I'll preface this by saying that Mr. Perfect is probably my all time favorite wrestler, but I will try to keep this as un-biased as possible.

I grew up watching the WWF in the mid 80's - Early 90's, so I'm quite familiar with the era. fact is, back in those days, there were very rarely heels as champions and when they did have a heel as world champ, it was for a very short time, as others have said. So, already, Mr. Perfect (as a heel) was facing an uphill battle to be a champion.

However, there are a few places in the timeline where I feel that Mr. Perfect could have been world champion:

1: Perfect and Hogan feuded quite often during the summer of 1989 and, as many remember, the Genius actually scored a countout victory over Hogan on SNME in November of 1989. Perfect also had a well-documented "undefeated" streak going (why they had Brutus Beefcake, of all people, break that streak, confuses me to this day, but that's another story...). Now, I'm not gonna say that Perfect should have beaten (or even faced) Hogan at WrestleMania VI, but I could see ways where it would be plausible for Perfect to beat Hogan for the title before WrestleMania VI and lose it to the Warrior there, ending his "perfect streak" in the process, something that Hogan would have failed to do when he dropped the title. Might have made the Warrior look even better, doing something that even the great Hulk Hogan couldn't do... Beat Mr. Perfect.

Of course, if you do that, Warrior has to drop the IC belt before Mania and why would Perfect go after (and win) the IC title after he's already held the big belt? So, that might not the best time in which to get Perfect a title run, because what happens to Perfect after WrestleMania VI...?

2: If Flair doesn't drop the belt to Bret Hart in Saskatoon, I could see Perfect getting a World Title Reign after he and Flair split in late 1992... Maybe Perfect/Flair is the title match at Royal Rumble 93, Bret wins the Rumble and you'd get Bret/Perfect as your WrestleMania IX Main Event. At least it would have kept Hogan from coming back and taking the title...

Problem I have with that scenario is, Perfect is a face there... I personally always preferred him better as a heel. I guess you could turn him heel between the Rumble and Mania, but that's heel to face to heel in just a few months' time. All in all, I like this better than I do the first scenario,because Perfect would have his history withe IC belt and his history with Hart, but not as much as I like my third and final scenario.

3: Looking back on history, if Perfect was ever going to win the World Title, the best shot he had was likely at the Royal Rumble 1991. You have to alter a little WWF history (and a major part of real-life history) but I really think it's his best chance to get a Title Reign.

It's important to remember that Perfect lost the IC belt to Kerry Von Erich (Texas Tornado) at SummerSlam 1990. At the Survivor Series, Perfect still hadn't won the IC belt back and his "Perfect Team" faced... The Ultimate Warrior's team, who was WWF Champion at the time. So, if WWF had wanted to, they could have very easily had a Perfect/Warrior feud, with Perfect taking the belt at Royal Rumble 1991 and dropping to Hogan at WrestleMania VII. That would mean, however, that Perfect would have only gotten 1 IC title reign.

The Problem? The Gulf War. When that event happened, WWF did what they normally do... Take real-life events and incorporate them into their world. I think most reasonable people would admit that, the only reason that Sgt. Slaughter (at age 42) got his one and only WWF title reign was due to the fact that the Gulf War happened. Perfect, at that time, was probably the #1 heel in the WWF, until the Gulf War and Slaughter turning into an Iraqi sympathizer catapulted the Sarge into the #1 spot.

So that, IMO, was Perfect's best chance... Looking back on it, it appeared as if they were possibly leaning toward a Perfect/Warrior feud, but was scrapped when the Gulf War became a major event. Obviously, Perfect's character wasn't going to all of a sudden sympathize with Iraqis, so Slaughter's already established military character was given a twist and capitilized on real life events.

So, yeah, I can see a few spots where a Mr. Perfect World Title Reign would fit into WWF history, but again, in those days, a heel didn't hold the belt for long, anyway... In some cases, having a short World Title Reign might have had worse long-term effects on the Mr. Perfect character than not having one at all.

-Bill

 

[The Boss]

the only time i could see mr perfect having been world champion is if ric flair never came to the wwf in 1991, he wouldve filled flairs spot as champ for sure

Hennig was injured and unable to wrestle during that time.

 

[Texas Tornado]

Im pretty sure I read in Bret Hart's book that Hennig was slated to become a main eventer and it was his back injury which put him out. Anyway, one can only imagine the legendary bouts and feuds he could have had with Kurt Angle and Benoit. His match at Summerslam with Bret was a testament to that.