Should Evolution have kicked Triple H out instead?

[DDelaware2009]

In short: in 2004, after Summer Slam, should Evolution have kicked Triple H out of the group instead of Randy Orton?

The details:
Flash back to summer 2004: Randy Orton is a rising star, finishing his 7-month IC reign in a match against Edge at Vengeance in July, a match in which the crowd was clearly split 50-50 on which superstar to cheer for. Orton dropped the IC belt but then would win an over-the-top Battle Royal on RAW and go on to defeat Chris Benoit at Summer Slam. The next night, we got the (in)famous "thumbs down" moment from Triple H and the group assaulted Orton, effectively removing him from Evolution.

The next month the whole tone changed, culminating in Triple H besting Orton at Unforgiven in September, winning the title back. Orton would then "chase" Triple H all the way to Royal Rumble, but he would never gain the title back. Through the whole program, Orton continued to lose steam, as his face turn resulted in his character no longer doing all of the things that made the fans love to hate him and even cheer him during his run as IC champ and with Evolution. WWE even put Stacy Keibler on his arm for a short time in an attempt to garner more positive reaction for Orton. Ultimately, Orton turned heel again in early 2005, hitting Stacy with the rKo and going on to challenge Undertaker at Wrestle Mania 21; meanwhile Batista turned on Triple H and defeated "The Game" in the WM21 Main Event.

The aftermath:
Triple H would turn face in 2006, bringing back DX. Orton has also become a top babyface but only after a long heel run brought out his best work and the "Cena" effect led to fans wanting to cheer him. But I think most would agree - including Randy himself- the Viper is a better heel through and through.

So, your thoughts?

 

[Mr. Book This Section]

Not really. I liked the way it turned out. Triple H didn't need to have to take on the group as a good guy, he was the best heel. I think it worked wonders for Randy Orton's carrera.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Kicking HHH out of Evolution is like kicking Ric Flair out of the Four Horsemen. The group was all about HHH in storyline but in reality it was also about creating 2 megastars in Randy Orton and Batista.

If HHH was kicked out, there would have been no Evolution and it would be the same old story of a face vs a heel group (see Cena/Nexus) and it would have failed. I liked the way it happened.

 

[Jefferson Starships]

I think it's obvious that the whole Orton/HHH feud was VERY rushed through and the face turn was much too quick. Look at the way the Batista turn was done. A slowly built work of genius that made the crowd hot for Batista when he eventually did turn of HHH.

Maybe plans changed and this was meant to be how Orton was to turn, but you know how fickle WWE is with their storyline builds. Rushed and bothed was how Orton turn was.

As PWF says above HHH was Evolution. No chance he was ever being kicked out, and who really anted to cheer for him back then.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Absolutely not. The whole point was for Orton to get kicked out, turn face, defeat Trips, and become the next big star. They rushed the part where Orton got kicked out, and I still believe that it was meant to be Orton instead of Batista facing Trips at Wrestlemania. The face turn didn't work out and as well know Randy found his calling as a heel a couple of years later. Things needed to play out the way they did, with Orton being the one kicked out so he could turn face (the push which Batista then inherited) or else the angle would have been ruined.

If Trips had been kicked out.... Who would have led them against him when he came back for revenge? Orton was still a rookie. Batista would not have been over enough without the Wrestlemania angle in 2005. Flair was too old at that point to be more than a mentor figure. Trips would have likely just squashed them each and that would have been the end of the angle, plus Orton and Batista's careers would each have drastically changed for the worse if that had happened. Evolution kicking out Trips would have destroyed the entire angle because it was never meant to be about him, it was meant to create two future stars. I'm glad that things turned out the way they did, or else we would have missed out on a great angle and instead we would have gotten a terrible ending to a great stable.

 

[BarryHorowitzfanclub]

It would have been a nice swerve; everyone thinking HHH is the man in charge and then WHAM...he's on his ass. It would have been a nice storyline and could have been carried for months, or longer.

However, everything pretty much is at superspeed these days as far as storylines go. The only one that comes to mind of any merit right now is the Bryan/Punk feud, which is total shades of old. It's nice to have a steady feud going on that matters.

But that's not the point of the thread. If HHH gets the boot...maybe DX comes back then and they go back and forth. Or maybe HHH is dogged by Evolution for the year. Putting HHH in the Sting role to the Evolution 4 Horsemen. It's just interesting to imagine.

 

[legendkiller1979]

Yep! Randy Orton was the hottest thing going in 2004. Chris Benoit may have had more success but all eyes were on Orton. He was by far my favorite wrestler that year and I was thrilled when he won the world title at summerslam. I don't understand why WWE would take a guy with so much momentum and completely switch direction. Orton's face turn is on the short list of worst ever. It was so bad that he was turned heels in a matter of weeks. I think we all expected him to win the world title at wrestlemania 21, but Orton just couldn't get over as a face.

Triple H would have been huge as a face. Triple H challenging Orton for the strap would have been great at mania. Sadly it didn't turn out that way. The night after Orton won the belt was great. I loved the celebration after his rematch with Benoit and was beyond disappointed when evolution turned on him.

I'll be honest and say that one of my biggest letdowns with the face turn was the switch with Orton's music. "Line in the Sand" was and is one of the best themes ever. I personally never liked "Light My Fire". It didn't do anything for me.

 

[TheHorndogSays]

It makes no logical sense to kick HHH out. Had HHH been the one kicked out it would have been HHH chasing Orton which would not have worked back then. In 2004, no one believed Orton could beat HHH. Booking 101: Make the face the underdog. There is a reason most stables are heel stables that culminate with one guy leaving the group and chasing the leader of the group for a title: because IT WORKS. What good would it have done HHH to beat Orton? He has beaten Austin, Rock, Mick Foley, and so many more. At that time Orton was NO ONE compared to those. It would not have made Orton feel like a star.

Now I will agree that the angle could have been done differently. Trying to make the audience believe into Orton as a young champion AND buy into his change from heel to face was simply too much on Orton. Heck, it would have been too much for just about anyone else. I would have much rather had HHH as the champion heading into Summerslam, Orton wins a battle royal to determine the challenger then is beat down by Evolution when he refuses to back down from the fight. Then he beats HHH for the title at Summerslam. No disrespect to Benoit but beating HHH for the title back then would have been so much bigger for his career. If you need proof that this works much better, look no further than how they handled the Batista turn heading into Wrestlemania when he beat HHH for the strap.

 

[midgensa]

As another has already said ... this ABSOLUTELY had to be done this way.

They KNEW they had a megastar in Randy Orton and they wanted to get him into a serious money feud. The major problem was that it was rushed. He was not a strong enough face to effectively feud with a dominant Triple H and it ended up stunting his growth.

I mean, seriously? The rest of the group going along with kicking Trips out? Ric Flair being like, "All right Young Buck. You win, lets get rid of the megastar!" It would have made NO sense at all.

It was basic business and basic common sense. I would not have minded them dragging it out a little longer. But, we got a classic moment out of it ... so I cannot complain too much.

 

[FlairFan2003]

kicking out Triple H would not have worked in 2004. Evolution was promoted to fans as two things, a conglomeration of the best wrestler of last era, best wrestler today, and two rising stars, the best of tomorrow. Orton had clearly benefited from his association with Evolution, it was time to take the next step, much like Lex Luger in 1988. A year with The Horsemen clearly elevated him with fans, by early 88 he was ready for the next step, the main event slot.

It is true that Orton didnt do a great job as a good guy, some guys just dont play both roles well. Rick Rude & Tully Blanchard rarely wrestled as fan favs throug long careers that took them from Texas to NWA/WCW to WWE (and in Rude's case) back to WCW. I think however Orton performed well enough that he showed he belonged in the top tier on his own. Once WWE re ignited his heel personna he really took off.

I also agree that they did a good job with Batista's turn, slowly building it, gaining fan support, making more impactful when it happened. It's a shame Batista didnt continue in wrestling, I think he would rival Cena as the company's top draw right now. However, regardless of how Orton performed initially as a fan fav, his subsequent exit from Evolution was done well, it was a huge surprise, and one of RAWs best moments.

Since niether Orton or Batista had totally established themselves as top tier guys in 2004, keeping them in Evolution and kicking out HHH wouldnt have worked as well. They woulent have been believable as foils for HHH. Flair was the only guy big enough fans would buy going over Trips. Feeding Batista & Orton to HHH just to set him up vs Flair might have made some money but it wouldnt have helped the two young guys as much as their eventual face turns did.

Finally kicking out HHH wouldnt have made as much storyline sense. Part of the group's mission was to protect The Game, their ultimate leader. Orton winning the title when it wasnt "his time" was disrespectful to Trips, he had violated the code, he had to go. Just like Luger in 88, once you invade the World Title scene you have to go.

Kicking Orton at the time made the most sense. Evolution as a whole was a great concept, making good use of Flair both as a wrestler & manager, getting some great work, some of his best, from HHH, and making Batista & Orton into huge stars.

 

[HBsam31]

No, it played out the way it should have. Like others have said Orton's face turn was rushed, and he did lose a lot of steam because of it. The whole point of it was to get Orton super over. HHH was also need to put Batista over, and if he would have turned face that wouldn't have worked out as well either. I think it was fine the way it was, but I don't think Orton got as over as they would have wanted.