Should breastfeeding while drinking be against the law?

[LSN80]

In an interesting case from Arkansas, a woman was arrested while eating dinner at an Italian restaurant with her parents and her six year old daughter when an off-duty waitress who was at the restaurant for a staff meeting called the police. The police promptly arrested the woman for endangering the welfare of her child.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mom-jailed-breastfeeding-drinking-waitress-fired/story?id=21622331
The charges against 28 year old Tasha Adams were dropped because of insufficient evidence that she had drank too much. I would also venture a guess that the charges were dropped because there is no law against breastfeeding and consuming alcohol at the same time. In what has become a national story, the 28 year old mother of three did an interview with ABC's 20/20, and discussed her arrest.

“I did drink. I did breastfeed. I didn’t know it was illegal. If I knew it was illegal, I wouldn’t have done it. We had a pizza, and then we had a big old thing of spinach dip. Then, I had a beer with that, and then I had another one later on after.”

Regardless of whether it was illegal or not, was it in the best interest of the child? Alcohol is a toxin, and regardless of the woman's tolerance for it(She claims in the video to have a high alcohol tolerance), that doesn't stop the alcohol from reaching the bloodstream, and subsequently, into the breast milk that Tasha Adams was producing.

The other part of this story involves the waitress who called the police, Jackie Conners. While there for the aforementioned staff meeting, she was upset after witnessing the woman drink and breastfeed. She notified management, but was informed by them that they were not going to cut Adams off. So, Conners called the police instead, and she disputes the claim that Adams only had "two beers."

"There were several drinks in front of her, about ... two or three drinks in front of her already, when I got there. I watched the bartender make them, looked like Long Islands. But regardless if it was that or not, then it was strong liquor that was in those glasses.”

Based on that, Conners consulted her mother via text, telling her to call the police. The police did show up at the restaurant, and in what they deemed a 'judgment call', arrested Adams. As I said earlier, the charges didn't stick, as there is no law against drinking and breastfeeding.

Conners decision to call the police turned out to be a costly one for her, as she lost her job as a direct result. Still, Conners stands by her decision to call the police.

“If I was ever in that situation again, I would still do the same thing, because that baby can’t speak up for itself. No one else was doing anything. Even if I knew my job was on the line and it was right around the holidays, I would still do it again.”

As someone who worked in a restaurant that served alcohol for several years while in graduate school, I can state from experience that most restaurants are reticent to cut people of age off. The restaurant has refused comment, and Conners didn't say whether or not she was told to 'drop it' or 'butt out', or something of that nature, so it's hard to say whether or not she was being insubordinate. The fact that Conners said management told her that Adams wouldn't be cut out seems to indicate she went against the wishes of management, at least.

However, it's of worry to me that I see that the police were concerned enough that the arrested Adams in a judgment call for endangering the welfare of her child. There are ways, when planning to drink, that a woman could prepare ahead of time. She could pump. She could use formula, that while not as healthy as breast milk, wouldn't make a difference now and then.

For me, I think Adams took an unnecessary risk. Someone is lying, as Adams claims she only had two beers, while Conners reported that she had watched the bartender make strong liquor for Adams. Its hard for me to say which was telling the truth, because I wasn't there. There was no test of her bloodstream. Anything more is pure speculation.

And though Adams was in disbelief over being arrested, she acknowledged that perhaps Conners did the right thing.

"Whether it was right or wrong in my eyes is different, you know, but if she really thought my baby was in danger, you know, maybe she done the right thing.”

Some questions to think about:

Should it be illegal to drink while breastfeeding? Do you believe the cops made the correct 'judgment call' in arresting Tonya Adams?

From what you've read, should waitress Jackie Conners have been fired for calling the police after management informed her Adams wouldn't be cut off?

Off to you.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Should it be illegal to drink while breastfeeding?

I hesitate to say yes because if we're going to start inflicting our morality in areas like this, who knows what it might lead to? If the people who think they know what's best for all of us are encouraged by seeing this become law, what might they go after next? Yes, Adams wasn't acting in the best interest of her child but I don't really like the idea of calling breastfeeding while drinking a "crime" either. Some things constitute improper behavior but fall short of being "against the law."

Do you believe the cops made the correct 'judgment call' in arresting Tonya Adams?

No. They knew the act they were summoned for wasn't a crime, so they shouldn't have arrested Adams. If she was sloshing down alcohol the way Conners said she was, the police could have found another reason to remove her from the restaurant.

Someone is lying, as Adams claims she only had two beers, while Conners reported that she had watched the bartender make strong liquor for Adams. And the fact that the police arrested her despite there being no law against it makes me lean to believe that Conners was telling the truth, Adams was not.

Maybe. But it could also be said that Conners might be compelled to lie.....to strengthen her accusation. She might have figured that the more she claimed Adams was drinking, the more likely the police would arrest her, so he could have exaggerated about the alcohol intake.

From what you've read, should waitress Jackie Conners have been fired for calling the police after management informed her Adams wouldn't be cut off?

Yes. She went against her employer's wishes and cast herself as the supreme authority who knew better than everyone else. If you want to argue that she had the right to do that, I say fine...... then the employer has a right to get rid of her for doing it.

 

[Remix]

In an interesting case from Arkansas, a woman was arrested while eating dinner at an Italian restaurant with her parents and her six year old daughter when an off-duty waitress who was at the restaurant for a staff meeting called the police. The police promptly arrested the woman for endangering the welfare of her child.

Well, congratulations Arkansas this is the second stupidest case of arresting a mother for an idiotic reason. It's narrowly beaten by Shanesha Taylor.

Regardless of whether it was illegal or not, was it in the best interest of the child? Alcohol is a toxin, and regardless of the woman's tolerance for it(She claims in the video to have a high alcohol tolerance), that doesn't stop the alcohol from reaching the bloodstream, and subsequently, into the breast milk that Tasha Adams was producing.

I don't like where this is going, LSN. I thought you were better than this.

When I see words like toxin, and know that a six-month year old child is sucking it into her system, I question both the judgment of the mother and whether or not she was looking out for her child's best interest.

OK LSN, I'ma let you finish but that was one of the stupidest run-on sentences of all time. If you're questioning how dangerous it is to drink while breastfeeding go do some research on how dangerous it is. For fuck's sake, you're supposed to be a doctor. Let me rephrase those last two paragraphs to illustrate what you just did.

Regardless of whether it was illegal or not, was it in the best interest of the child? Ultraviolet light is a carcinogen, and regardless of the woman's tolerance for it (She claims in the video to have been applying a protective cream to her children), that doesn't stop the rays from reaching and then passing through the skin, and subsequently causing severe damage to her childrens' DNA.

When I see words like carcinogen, and know that a six-month year old child is exposed to it every day, I question both the judgment of the mother and whether or not she was looking out for her child's best interest.

Looks scary right? Now, do you think a mother letting her kids play outside should be arrested for exposing her kids to UV light? Because that's more dangerous than breastfeeding after a couple of drinks. Looks like it's time for drug time with Remix.

Alcohol is indeed a toxin, and can enter breast milk. However, not very much of it (~16%) does, and it's all quickly removed (alcohol is not stored by the body in milk or anywhere else). Given that Tasha was drinking with a meal, slowing the uptake of alcohol and (depending on whose account you believe) was only drinking a moderate amount (2 bottles of beer, with half an hour between them) the only 'harm' likely to present itself in this situation was the baby drinking less because its milk tasted funny. Then when it next had its feed there'd be none present in the milk or the baby.

Caffeine will affect a baby more than alcohol in any realistic scenario. I'll wait for the thread about the woman arrested in starbucks for breastfeeding after her latte.

The other part of this story involves the waitress who called the police, Jackie Conners. While there for the aforementioned staff meeting, she was upset after witnessing the woman drink and breastfeed. She notified management, but was informed by them that they were not going to cut Adams off. So, Conners called the police instead, and she disputes the claim that Adams only had "two beers."

Of course she does. It would be totally unreasonable to call the cops on someone who only had two beers with a meal.

Based on that, Conners consulted her mother via text, telling her to call the police. The police did show up at the restaurant, and in what they deemed a 'judgment call', arrested Adams. As I said earlier, the charges didn't stick, as there is no law against drinking and breastfeeding.

So basically she texted her mother (now, I don't know about you, but I doubt her mother is an authoritative source on how dangerous things are) and then wasted police time (in the UK, that is a crime) by dialling 911 for something that's not illegal because she didn't approve of what Tasha was doing.

That's like someone calling the cops because there are some kids hanging out on your street despite not doing anything. I'll go ahead and wait for you to make a thread defending that guy

Conners decision to call the police turned out to be a costly one for her, as she lost her job as a direct result. Still, Conners stands by her decision to call the police.

Of course she does. She's convinced she's right. So are 9/11 truthers.

As someone who worked in a restaurant that served alcohol for several years while in graduate school, I can state from experience that most restaurants are reticent to cut people of age off.

Of course they are. Unless they do something to make it so, how much someone drinks isn't their problem and they don't want to lose their business in the short term (no more drinks sold to their table) or long term (because who wants to go to the restaurant that'll enforce their opinions on you?)

The restaurant has refused comment,

Of course they did. They don't want to lose the business of anyone who agrees with either party.

and Conners didn't say whether or not she was told to 'drop it' or 'butt out', or something of that nature,

Of course she was. There was a staff meeting, the consensus was not to call the cops or decline to serve her. Would you have been (by management or one of your peers) if you'd pulled a similar stunt on a parent smoking at the table with their kids?

so it's hard to say whether or not she was being insubordinate.

Of course she was. She was told not to do something, did it anyway and potentially lost the restaurant business. I suspect she's not a model employee anyway.

However, it's of worry to me that I see that the police were concerned enough that the arrested Adams in a judgment call for endangering the welfare of her child.

Of course they arrested her. Connors called them, which means they were expecting someone who'd been carelessly drinking like a fish, plus none of them will know how dangerous (or not as the case actually is) alcohol in breast milk is. They will be very aware that a parent who has drunk to excess can present a real danger to children's welfare though.

There are ways, when planning to drink, that a woman could prepare ahead of time. She could pump. She could use formula, that while not as healthy as breast milk, wouldn't make a difference now and then.

Or, she could breastfeed as normal as a small amount of alcohol rarely does not present any real danger to a 6 month old baby.

For me, I think Adams took an unnecessary risk. Someone is lying, as Adams claims she only had two beers, while Conners reported that she had watched the bartender make strong liquor for Adams. And the fact that the police arrested her despite there being no law against it makes me lean to believe that Conners was telling the truth, Adams was not.

Right now LSN, I am so glad I'm not one of your patients.

And though Adams was in disbelief over being arrested, she acknowledged that perhaps Conners did the right thing.

Of course she does. She doesn't know how dangerous what she was doing is any more than you did.

Should it be illegal to drink while breastfeeding?

No

Do you believe the cops made the correct 'judgment call' in arresting Tonya Adams?[/B]

No

From what you've read, should waitress Jackie Conners have been fired for calling the police after management informed her Adams wouldn't be cut off?

Yes.

 

[LSN80]

OK LSN, I'ma let you finish but that was one of the stupidest run-on sentences of all time. If you're questioning how dangerous it is to drink while breastfeeding go do some research on how dangerous it is.

I did as you asked. Said Jennifer Ashton, an OB-GYN, who was asked specifically to comment about this case.

Dr. Jennifer Ashton: “Conventional wisdom will say that breastfeeding is best for both the mother and the baby, and that moderate consumption, which really means once and a while to consume a drink, probably will not do any harm for the baby.But we have to remember that alcohol is a toxin. It’s especially toxic to the toddler's brain, to the developing brain.”

This could go either way. She's saying once in awhile fine, but to show caution, because why? Alcohol is a toxin. But clearly, it was misguided of me to state that it could be in poor judgment for a woman to do something that could be toxic to a 'developing brain.'

For fuck's sake, you're supposed to be a doctor. Let me rephrase those last two paragraphs to illustrate what you just did.

I'm not supposed to be a doctor, I am one. However, I'm a psychologist. I don't have a medical degree in the truest sense. And I'll take Dr. Ashton's word over yours, regardless of the spin you put on it.

Looks scary right? Now, do you think a mother letting her kids play outside should be arrested for exposing her kids to UV light? Because that's more dangerous than breastfeeding after a couple of drinks.

Find in my post where I said the woman should have been arrested. I'll wait, because you wont find it. I said she took an "unnecessary risk." How does that compute to "she should have been arrested"?

Looks like it's time for drug time with Remix.

I'd just say no, buddy. It appears to be affecting your reading comprehension.

Caffeine will affect a baby more than alcohol in any realistic scenario. I'll wait for the thread about the woman arrested in starbucks for breastfeeding after her latte.

I never said the woman should have been arrested. It's an interesting story, because there is controversy to it. I summarized the article, I didn't write it. Again, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying.

Of course she does. It would be totally unreasonable to call the cops on someone who only had two beers with a meal.

I never said it was reasonable. The mother claims she had two beers, the waitress, much more. I said one is lying, I never gave an opinion as to whom.

So basically she texted her mother (now, I don't know about you, but I doubt her mother is an authoritative source on how dangerous things are) and then wasted police time (in the UK, that is a crime) by dialling 911 for something that's not illegal because she didn't approve of what Tasha was doing.

I didn't say the police were right, but the police themselves decided that it wasn't a waste of time. How do I know? They arrested the woman.

That's like someone calling the cops because there are some kids hanging out on your street despite not doing anything. I'll go ahead and wait for you to make a thread defending that guy.

I didn't make a thread defending what the waitress did. I made a thread giving both sides of the story. That's called balanced coverage, my friend.

Of course they are. Unless they do something to make it so, how much someone drinks isn't their problem and they don't want to lose their business in the short term (no more drinks sold to their table) or long term (because who wants to go to the restaurant that'll enforce their opinions on you?)

Restaurants can be held liable if they don't cut off drinkers who are notably intoxicated. They're to make judgment calls. When I used to drink, I was cut off on more then one occasion. Why? Because I had too much, and was clearly intoxicated.

A restaurant isn't enforcing their opinions by cutting someone off, they're obeying the law. At least, as it is in the United States.

Of course she was. She was told not to do something, did it anyway and potentially lost the restaurant business. I suspect she's not a model employee anyway.

She wasn't told not to do something, she was told by management that they wouldn't be doing something. I'm not defending what she did, I'm pointing out the facts as were relayed by the article.

Of course they arrested her. Connors called them, which means they were expecting someone who'd been carelessly drinking like a fish, plus none of them will know how dangerous (or not as the case actually is) alcohol in breast milk is. They will be very aware that a parent who has drunk to excess can present a real danger to children's welfare though.

They made a judgment call after talking to the woman. I'm not saying they were correct in doing so, but they were there, you and I were not.

Or, she could breastfeed as normal as a small amount of alcohol rarely does not present any real danger to a 6 month old baby.

Or she could plan in advance, as 0% risk is preferable to even a .000001% risk. That's just logical.

Right now LSN, I am so glad I'm not one of your patients.

Because I presented a summary of an article, and said the woman had other options for that evening? Pity the person who has me as their therapist, and I discuss options and avoidable risk with them. She could pump in advance. She could use formula. But those are alternatives, the choice is hers. I'm merely presenting options, not looking down on her with judgmental eyes.

Of course she does. She doesn't know how dangerous what she was doing is any more than you did.

And as was made apparent by your example that was spin and irrelevant, you're in the same boat with her and I. Welcome.

Should it be illegal to drink while breastfeeding?
No

Notice I presented it with options, not as 'this is how it should be.'

Do you believe the cops made the correct 'judgment call' in arresting Tonya Adams?[/B]
No.

Notice the pattern. I presented choices, yes or no. I didn't look down on the woman in judgment.

From what you've read, should waitress Jackie Conners have been fired for calling the police after management informed her Adams wouldn't be cut off?
Yes.

Notice that I'm 3 for 3 in providing neutral questions with two options, and allowing others to decide for themselves.

But good thing you didn't assume otherwise, right?

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Should it be illegal to drink while breastfeeding?

I wanted to do some research before answering this question because I honestly didn't know how alcohol affects breastfeeding so here it goes:

According to the Australian Breastfeeding Association, whilst you shouldn't be breastfeeding after you've consumed alcohol, it is actually better for your baby to be breastfeed with a small amount of alcohol in the mothers' system (up to two standard drinks in the appropriate time allocated to consume those drinks) than giving your baby artificial milk.

There are some other factors such as:

• Eating before & during the time you consume alcohol
• Not drinking every day
• Not breastfeeding a child under a month in age whilst having alcohol in their system
• How much the mother weighs, therefore equating to how long alcohol will pass through the system
• Alcohol takes about 30-60 minutes to pass into the blood stream and subsequently, the breast milk.

For the most part, you can drink and then breastfeed. In the case of Adams who said that she had only 2 beers, then what she did was perfectly acceptable since beers usually are around or under the standard drink mark per beer.

However, drinking excessively, as the waitress was led to believe, and then breastfeeding could become dangerous and have a negative effect on the child. But we are getting into the territory of being an abusive mother and there are many ways to go about dealing with these cases that specifically dedicating a law to breastfeeding would be almost worthless.

As long as you make plans around consuming alcohol responsibly whilst breastfeeding, then things should be okay.

Do you believe the cops made the correct 'judgment call' in arresting Tonya Adams?

I'm going to go back to my point of being an abusive mother to answer this question.

She was eating at a restaurant with other people, alongside a barrage of other people (one can assume). Nobody called in apart from the waitress and no other counts were made. If the woman was being abusive, there would have been a much bigger scene being caused by other customers and staff. The restaurant owners also concluded that cutting them off wouldn't have been the correct call so really, this is one persons' opinion on the matter. Going off one person, I do not think the police should have arrested the woman.

If there were multiple people and sufficient evidence in front of them to suggest that she was drinking, then you'd have a case.

From what you've read, should waitress Jackie Conners have been fired for calling the police after management informed her Adams wouldn't be cut off?

Yes, there is grounds for firing her as it wasn't her call to make and it was already rejected by those in charge.

She was standing up for what she believes in, which can be seen as merited in some circumstances, but this was a decision that needed to be made by somebody who was an expert. I do not believe the average waitress would be educated properly on the effects of alcohol and breastfeeding combined so it was not her call to make. She informed management and they didn't feel what she was doing was incorrect and honestly, I'd trust management more with possessing such knowledge over a staff member.

For something as minor as this to call the police and put the restaurant in a bad light, that can constitute them removing that waitress from their staff. If she stayed, customers would have recognised her face and would get unwarranted attention (I'm talking about the negative here) and could potentially lose business, which nobody wants.

Cut the losses and move on quickly. I'm sure the restaurant will find someone else and recover whilst Conners can move on somewhere else.